Sometimes, I wonder if communism is crazy.

[RedWorker]

I am a Marxist. When I am rational, I find myself completely doubtless, completely sure of the righteousness and correctness of communism. I find it hard not to agree with the philosophical tenets of Marxism, such as materialism; in fact, I am completely in agreement. I find it hard not to agree with the aims and means of communism; in fact, I am completely in agreement. I criticize Marxists, but I find it very difficult, if not altogether impossible, to put together a critique of any aspect of Marxism.

However, this thread will deal primarily with emotions, not a rational Marxist perspective. I realize that Marxism, which is rational, has not much to do with this emotional perspective. But it is not Marxism we are talking about here, even though I will mention the term 'Marxism' several times.

When I read bourgeois theory, news, you name it, I am amazed not only by how bad its consequences are, but how dumb it is. Let alone that the whole framework is setup to fool someone. When the text is not plagued with outright lies, it contains misinformation of the worst sort, and the worst reasonings. Not only are the reasonings logically incorrect, but they are based on the most unethical crap which can be conceived. The ideas of 'justice', of 'freedom', and so on; in a term, the ideological superstructure of the capitalist mode of production are entirely flawed, not only on a logical but on a philosophical, ethical and emotional level. One naturally gets aware of this not reading counter-bourgeois information, but bourgeois information. When reading Marxism, one finds a compelling critique of the current society. When reading bourgeois information, one finds out the ultimate confirmation of this critique, which for a moment seems like a flawless understanding.

In bourgeois 'information', one finds the worst manipulations, the worst analyses, and the dumbest 'logic', but all this is blown out of the water by how outrightly unethical the ideas this 'information' transfers are. After reading a little of such texts, one leaves hateful and confused, enraged by not the sheer stupidity, but at the injustice of the base which forms this superstructure. One finds revolutionary leftist theory to be not confirmed, but outright absolutely true. But for now this is only words. Take events. Even when reading about a thing which just happened far away, and to people one is not connected with, one finds oneself amazed. Take the start of military conflict, for instance, for reasons as dumb, let alone immoral, as the current one between US/EU and Russia, the outbreak of disease due to the inaction or inefficiency of capitalism, or just about anything for which the capitalist mode of production and/or bourgeois society is to blame. When such events occurs, one finds revolutionary leftist theory not to be confirmed, not to be absolutely true, but... hell, I can't even find the words for it.

Take constant phenomena. Such as starvation. If a hundred people were to die for the profit of others, that would be an utterly wicked crime. When not hundreds, not thousands, not hundreds of thousands but millions of human beings die every year for the continuation of the capitalist mode of production and bourgeois society, we human beings are unable to even understand it. We manage to barely scratch the surface of the issue, and we become confused, as well as disgusted in all ways, as if one had just ate corrupt food. Now, how does one describe the degree of sympathy to revolutionary socialism, which one experiences when such things occur?

But it is not only that. It is my own real experiences. Living in such a well-off state such as Spain, with supposedly one of the top 10 economies in the world, enough to create the largest amount of useless wealth, one finds that the people here are living completely insufferable hells. Living in what I believe is a relatively well-off place within this state, I need to walk what, perhaps five minutes to find a homeless person, and it is not rare that one sees even several within the same point of view. These people are living a living hell, but they may in fact, be living a much better life than several millions of people in the world, when one considers the statistics, of how much sheer poverty there is out there, in the various places of Earth! Now, this is one social problem. Let's not go into unemployment, intolerable labor conditions, and so on. Faced with this scenario, one comes to the conclusion that anyone who is not a communist, given the correct information, is committing an act of high treason against the human species!

So I am in complete agreement with Marxism in every way; philosophically, politically, logically, by virtue of my own class background, and so on, and emotionally.

One finds that it is impossible to sympathize, let alone not outrightly hate, with any elements of the capitalist mode of production, of the bourgeois society and/or any of the sections of its superstructure. One finds that to recognize any of the current order as valid or necessary in any way, let alone not completely undesirable, amounts to an act of unethical behavior.

And yet, I constantly get these thoughts in my head. What if I'm crazy? What if communism is crazy? What if communism is impossible, or will never happen? What if capitalism is not good, but it's the best thing what we could have? Hell, what if neoliberalism is right, and we should all be sympathizers of the Libertarian Party of the United States? What if all bourgeois propaganda is, difficult as it may be to accept, right? What if, in spite of scientific socialism, communism is an utopia upheld by misguided people?

It is outrightly disgusting when I even ask myself, "what if I'm completely wrong, and I need to grow up and learn to accept the established order?" I do not directly ask myself this, but I realize I'm subconsciously thinking about it. It sounds like exactly what the totalitarianism of bourgeois society wants everyone to think.

Naturally, being a Marxist, I find the rational answer to these dumb questions, which come from fear and anxiety, to be obvious. They are not serious criticisms in the least, and any arguments which result from such questions can be rationally demounted within seconds, and even emotionally too, by being aware of the utter suffering which capitalism causes, and by just how ridiculous the arguments of its apologists are.

In fact, I do not seriously ask myself these questions. They are simply thoughts that are always in there. What if I'm completely wrong, and all bourgeois propaganda is right? I have no real way of proving myself correct. Let alone theory, how do we know, right now, that communist society is even possible? Rationally, I'm led to think it is. Emotionally, I randomly get these thoughts which I can resolve at a theoretical level, but not permanently at this emotional level.

Please post your thoughts, and spare me from the stupid [edit: condescending] posts which I can already smell, if not completely predict.

[FSL]

Let alone theory, how do we know, right now, that communist society is even possible? Rationally, I'm led to think it is. Emotionally, I randomly get these thoughts which I can resolve at a theoretical level, but not permanently at this emotional level.

Please post your thoughts, and spare me from the stupid posts which I can already smell, if not completely predict.

You know things through reason, if you're trying to know things emotionally you're doing it wrong.

What you might be doubting "emotionally" is not the actual feasibility of the project but your -or everyone's- strength to achieve it.

[Creative Destruction]

Please post your thoughts, and spare me from the stupid posts which I can already smell, if not completely predict.

i don't know if you're crazy, but this makes you sound like an arrogant jackass. do we need to break out the smelling salts and a fainting couch for you?

[RedWorker]

i don't know if you're crazy, but this makes you sound like an arrogant jackass. do we need to break out the smelling salts and a fainting couch for you?

I'm unsure of what's making me sound like an 'arrogant jackass'. If it's the whole post, which may be too focused on myself, well, too many people are already using RevLeft exclusively as a social network for things completely unrelated to communism. If it's to the comment on 'stupid posts', then I don't refer to any posts people may make to genuine intentions; I refer to the crap we so often have to put up with here, for instance, such as "you have no understanding of Marxism" (followed by a boring lecture which is saying something which you already precisely know but which the condescending poster believes you are not even aware of because of the way you worded something which doesn't fit his/her dogmas), "you are not a real Marxist", etc.

Anyway, please avoid making useless posts. If it doesn't interest you, or you've got a personal annoyance with something someone said, and have no intention of constructive discussion, then simply don't post.

[Sinister Intents]

I'm an anarchist communist highly influenced by Marxism, I am to the point where I really actually can't be labeled a tendency because I've defined my views on certain topics in a way where I have no idea my standing, so that at times leads to cognitive dissonance between anarchism and Marxism, which can at times become frustrating because I've no idea what to say or believe when it comes to the two sides of this spectrum of politics. I tend towards agree with specific forms of marxism and various areas of anarchism. To me one cannot actually disagree or contradict marxism without resorting to bourgeois or liberal argumentation.


Emotions can be extremely irrational and often times people emotionalize their politics which can lead to some dramatic results, but could also have no effect on their politics. Marxism is cold and mechanistic, it is rational. Emotions tend towards going too many different directions to be able to say whether something is rational or not in a given situation.


Yeah, bourgeois and liberal argumentation tend towards being very emotionalized and/or egotistical, it tends towards maintaining the hegemonic order which people find comfort in because they're used to it, they're naturalized to it, they feel it is normal and rational. It becomes the only thing that makes sense to certain people. When someone begins to deviate from the social norms they may begin to feel entirely disgusted and pushed away from what is normally accepted. Too many people believe in comforting lies and illusions because to them there lies comfort because they know it. When they begin to read contradictory material it may hurt their senses, it hurts their delusions, which they defend.

No, you're not crazy, I guess I'd say you're just aware of what's going on around you when it comes to these things. I get some pretty blatant and negative thoughts as well. It comes with becoming conscious of the world around you to get these thoughts I feel because at times I feel similarly

[Creative Destruction]

Anyway, please avoid making useless posts. If it doesn't interest you, or you've got a personal annoyance with something someone said, and have no intention of constructive discussion, then simply don't post.

lol, fuck you.

[BIXX]

I am a Marxist. When I am rational, I find myself completely doubtless, completely sure of the righteousness and correctness of communism. I find it hard not to agree with the philosophical tenets of Marxism, such as materialism; in fact, I am completely in agreement. I find it hard not to agree with the aims and means of communism; in fact, I am completely in agreement. I criticize Marxists, but I find it very difficult, if not altogether impossible, to put together a critique of any aspect of Marxism.

This paragraph was just embarrassing. Its this kind of thing that makes you sound like an arrogant jackass.

[Sinister Intents]

lol, fuck you.


This paragraph was just embarrassing. Its this kind of thing that makes you sound like an arrogant jackass.

I approached this very differently than both of you.

Honestly, I think a lot of people tend to sound very arrogant when they talk of their politics. As if they're so sure of themselves, and so sure they're correct. I'm pretty sure I'm incorrect in a ton of areas, and I cannot be sure which you know?

Only time can really tell who is correct and who isn't when it comes to one's personal politics

[consuming negativity]

not sure what calling redworker names is doing that is good but alright y'all

in response to the OP itself: you think it all sounds stupid because you've taken the time to figure it out. you're intelligent and you have both the time and the desire to sit and think all this shit through and make it important to you. not everybody is like that, and pro-capitalism arguments sound logical when they are posed to people who don't know the things that you know.

but, of course, you doubt yourself continually. why? probably a number of reasons, but first and foremost among them, nobody ever figures anything out by not questioning what they see. in fact, if you didn't question what you think, you'd believe the bullshit that you are denouncing. for whatever reason, like i said, you figured shit out. great. it's really not that difficult to do so if you really want to do it.

but in reality i think this post sounds a lot more like you just venting some mental frustration rather than it being any serious attempt to communicate with us or elicit a discussion on the merits of the OP. correct me if i'm wrong.

[BIXX]

in response to the OP itself: you think it all sounds stupid because you've taken the time to figure it out. you're intelligent and you have both the time and the desire to sit and think all this shit through and make it important to you. not everybody is like that, and pro-capitalism arguments sound logical when they are posed to people who don't know the things that you know.

We said it sounded like he was an arrogant prick, not that he sounded stupid and that we know the answers.

[Comrade #138672]

This paragraph was just embarrassing. Its this kind of thing that makes you sound like an arrogant jackass.Why?

Anyway, we all have doubts at times. Even if you are sure of something, you always have to consider the possibility that you are wrong. This is how science works. If we would just always assume that we are 100% correct, this would mean we are infallible. We are not. But, we can be pretty sure about the correctness of Marxism, precisely because can question it when it is necessary.

[khad]

Take constant phenomena. Such as starvation. If a hundred people were to die for the profit of others, that would be an utterly wicked crime. When not hundreds, not thousands, not hundreds of thousands but millions of human beings die every year for the continuation of the capitalist mode of production and bourgeois society, we human beings are unable to even understand it. We manage to barely scratch the surface of the issue, and we become confused, as well as disgusted in all ways, as if one had just ate corrupt food. Now, how does one describe the degree of sympathy to revolutionary socialism, which one experiences when such things occur?
At a certain point, leftists should stop acting like they are the ultimate Christians with these moral appeals. I think it's abundantly clear that the world doesn't work that way.

[Comrade #138672]

At a certain point, leftists should stop acting like they are the ultimate Christians with these moral appeals. I think it's abundantly clear that the world doesn't work that way.I do not see how this has anything to do with Christian morality. According to Christian morals, human suffering is justified due to the sinful nature of humanity. God is teaching us a lesson, which is why we should accept Jesus Christ in our lives. Otherwise, we deserve to rot in hell.

I think there is much more to this than moralism.

[khad]

I do not see how this has anything to do with Christian morality. According to Christian morals, human suffering is justified due to the sinful nature of humanity. God is teaching us a lesson, which is why we should accept Jesus Christ in our lives. Otherwise, we deserve to rot in hell.

I think there is much more to this than moralism.
That's a cosmological framework, not a moral sensibility.

The Judean religions all teach that a person's reward will be proportional to the amount of suffering he or she undergoes, as if suffering will justify or render deserving of a reward.

See the legends of Noah, Moses, Job, and even the big Jesus himself.

When leftists stop beating their hooves about the last stand at Pere Lachaise, Catalonia, Che's death, the fall of the USSR or whatever or how the POOR POOR people deserve Communist salvation, then maybe this pity party for the ages can stop. I'm just fucking sick of YET ANOTHER one of these threads.

[MarxSchmarx]

lol, fuck you.
This is a verbal warning against flamish one liners

[Illegalitarian]

No more class, no more race, gender, sex, and almost everything about the way we interact with one another on a personal and societal level being completely reshaped in such a way that brings humanity to a true state of freedom from every oppressive social construct we're subjected to, with production belonging to the commons, controlled by those actually doing the producing and distributing, virtually ending the cycle of poverty, poverty as a concept, even.


It's a beautiful thought. Looking at the world and every failed revolutionary leftist movement that either ended up degenerating into authoritarian madness (China, the USSR) or being trampled on by the boots of fascists or other groups whose existence they threatened (The Free Territory, Revolutionary Catalonia) is pretty goddamn discouraging and sometimes I too worry that maybe this is all utopian nonsense, that the forces of reaction will never allow humanity to break the chains of capital.

I've already consigned myself to the fact that it will never happen in our lifetimes. This realization has taken its toll on many communists (look at poor Goldman), I'm not getting my hopes up, for sure.



It's easy to fall into that defeatist line of thinking, but we can's just throw our hands up and walk away. That would certainly be the easy thing to do, but revolutionary politics have never been an easy thing I guess.

Especially the actual politics of revolution. It has a way of changing people, of destroying them. It absolutely consumed the lives of Lenin and Robespierre. Quite literally in the case of the latter, but he was so sickly that he may not have made it much longer anyways. Not that we'll all have roles of responsibility and importance as those two did, but even on the most basic level revolution tends to turn people into something different, as with the sans-culottes etc.

I often wonder, if it did come in my lifetime, would I even be able to stomach it.

[Os Cangaceiros]

This system is best at slowly wearing down people's willpower, it is incredibly good at that task. But even if when things seem darkest, something will come along that renews my faith in people. It's important to appreciate the small victories...one of my favorite stories was in a book I was reading about Hezbollah, in which the author described the IDF withdrawing from South Lebanon in the 1980's. There was some decrepit prison that people had been tortured in by the Israelis and their allies in the area, and when crowds of people couldn't find a way to release the prisoners they literally started tearing down the prison doors with their bare hands. Little anecdotes like that inspire me on an emotional level.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Whenever I feel like communism is crazy I accept that it is - but in comparison to how crazy and unjust today's capitalist world is, the potential upheaval, terror and brutality that could associate the international revolution seem justified.

[RedMaterialist]

Redworker, your self-doubt, despair, self-questioning, etc. sound eerily similar to that described by Marx in the Eighteenth Brumaire:


On the other hand, proletarian revolutions, like those of the nineteenth century, constantly criticize themselves, constantly interrupt themselves in their own course, return to the apparently accomplished, in order to begin anew; they deride with cruel thoroughness the half-measures, weaknesses, and paltriness of their first attempts, seem to throw down their opponents only so the latter may draw new strength from the earth and rise before them again more gigantic than ever, recoil constantly from the indefinite colossalness of their own goals – until a situation is created which makes all turning back impossible, and the conditions themselves call out:

Hic Rhodus, hic salta!

So, take heart, Comrade! Marx is with you.

And, the point is not to understand the world (logically or otherwise) but to change it. And the weapons of criticism can't replace the criticism of weapons.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Of course communism is crazy, and the emotional desire to smash the system of production which provides the basis of our current social order reflects deep-seated psychological problems!

Of course, the thing is, capitalism produces these crazy desires and the alternative - the content, compliant, and disturbingly repressed "model citizen" - is no less crazy!

We are either crazy and lash out against society, or we're crazy and lash out against ourselves (and what remains of any properly human community).

The struggle is to identify correctly the distinctions, and attempt the former!

We'll only cease being crazy with the restoration of properly human relations which capitalism necessarily precludes. Crazy isn't "in" the fictitious atomized liberal "individual". Thinking is a collective task, and the system that creates in/sanity among people creates it in people.

[socialistlawyer]

Communism is not crazy. The Grinch is. Anybody among you who feels like how he does? Nobody!

[Comrade #138672]

That's a cosmological framework, not a moral sensibility.

The Judean religions all teach that a person's reward will be proportional to the amount of suffering he or she undergoes, as if suffering will justify or render deserving of a reward.

See the legends of Noah, Moses, Job, and even the big Jesus himself.

When leftists stop beating their hooves about the last stand at Pere Lachaise, Catalonia, Che's death, the fall of the USSR or whatever or how the POOR POOR people deserve Communist salvation, then maybe this pity party for the ages can stop. I'm just fucking sick of YET ANOTHER one of these threads.It is not about "deserving salvation". It is about empathy, from a class point of view, I guess. As workers, we are all exploited in one way or another. To realize that the exploitation of workers in the so-called First World, is unbearable and yet still so insignificant compared to the exploitation of Third World workers, does not mean that the troubles of First World workers are insignificant, and it does not mean that the worries of the First World workers about the situation and/or fate of Third World workers are insignificant either. In a way, we are all connected, because of our class, that we all share. Clearly, this has more to do with the recognition of our common class interests than Christian moralism.