Introduction

[White_Sun]

Hello Everyone,

Please to join this forum and I'll divide up my introduction into 2 parts, a little bio and my political inclinations.

Bio:
In my mid 20s and am currently living in Johannesburg, South Africa working in sales/marketing for an aviation spare part company. I grew predominately in the US (New York City specifically) but have also spent years going to school in Russia, Switzerland, and England. I have travelled the world extensively with the exception of Asia proper so hopefully I can provide some personal experiences into the debates here. Going through the process of applying back to school so thats a lot of fun. Always had an interest in history, politics, and all that kind of stuff, hence I'm here (in addition to the leftist tendencies).

Politcal leanings:
I haven't given too much thought as to what shade of red I am but it would be safe to state that I am a "revolutionarily sympathetic social democrat". Basically I am at heart a pragmatist and although a huge fan of Marx have to acknowledge that it was a study based on his time when classes were indeed starkly divided in "first world" or rather developed nations. I used to browse this forum years ago when I was full of revolutionary zeal so hopefully the more knowledgeable Marxists here can do a job of convincing me that revolution is in fact the way to go.
Even though not religious, I do not support active repression of religions. If it is a defunct idea or belief it will go away by its own accord, there is no need to step on people's firmly held beliefs if they stay out of politics.
Lastly, I, like many leftists do believe the idea of financial incentive is not the greatest motivator (for a small minority it might be the case). But I do see the value in small businesses provided they are run to standards that are way too long for me to explain in an introduction.

Anyway, thats all. Great to have a place to have different ideas discussed.

[Q]

Welcome :)

If you have political questions, you can ask them in the Learning forum. That's why it's there after all!

If you have questions about your account, don't hesitate to send me a PM or ask here.

Given your description as a "revolutionarily sympathetic social democrat", would you say that you're positive towards 'orthodox' Marxism (this description might help (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=6681) if you don't know what this is)?

[White_Sun]

Thanks for the welcome Q, I do appreciate that link and it does mirror my internal thought process to a large extent. I do have quite a bit of questions and will probably mozy on over to the "learning" section after the game.

But I will say my this; one of my biggest "concerns" about a vanguard revolution and it taking power with the implied paternalistic assumption of "we know better than the rest of you lot" mentality.

In other words, there has to be enough active support for socialism/communism already existing before implementation. That in itself would be a barrier to reactionary forces post revolution/election/whatever. In my experience there is only a very small segment of the world's population that knows anything remotely true about the subject expect that "it sounds good on paper."

Anyway, its very easy to go on endless tangents. If there is one thing I've learned from debating this stuff is that it is really hard to keep arguments focused and not digress into mumbo jumbo.

[Q]

But I will say my this; one of my biggest "concerns" about a vanguard revolution and it taking power with the implied paternalistic assumption of "we know better than the rest of you lot" mentality.
I agree. I argued a while ago (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=6435) for a clean break with that mentality.


In other words, there has to be enough active support for socialism/communism already existing before implementation. That in itself would be a barrier to reactionary forces post revolution/election/whatever. In my experience there is only a very small segment of the world's population that knows anything remotely true about the subject expect that "it sounds good on paper."
Yes! We need mass movements, aim to organise our class :)

[RedWorker]

Welcome.


Basically I am at heart a pragmatist and although a huge fan of Marx have to acknowledge that it was a study based on his time when classes were indeed starkly divided in "first world" or rather developed nations.

The division of classes is all the same, and inequality is worse. Marx's analysis is perfectly valid for first-world. Of course, the small pieces of bread given to the proletariat become bigger as the economy gets better. Yet why should we stick with this? I can't stand going out and seeing piles of homeless people everywhere anymore. I or someone I know could easily become one of them soon.


Even though not religious, I do not support active repression of religions. If it is a defunct idea or belief it will go away by its own accord, there is no need to step on people's firmly held beliefs if they stay out of politics.

People here don't support repression of religions.


But I do see the value in small businesses provided they are run to standards that are way too long for me to explain in an introduction.

Small business is small capital, and to support them in an USA-like manner is opportunism. What is wrong with the resources being collectively used, with the initiatives created by the collective planning of society? It would do better than 'small business' - which is yet another Newspeak term created by neoliberalism, by the way, such as 'middle class' and others.


But I will say my this; one of my biggest "concerns" about a vanguard revolution and it taking power with the implied paternalistic assumption of "we know better than the rest of you lot" mentality.

One first needs to wonder if such a revolution is really a revolution rather than a coup. But not many people here support a vanguard.


In other words, there has to be enough active support for socialism/communism already existing before implementation. That in itself would be a barrier to reactionary forces post revolution/election/whatever. In my experience there is only a very small segment of the world's population that knows anything remotely true about the subject expect that "it sounds good on paper."

They don't need to know anything about the subject more than that. The revolution comes from the materially-fuelled struggle.

[White_Sun]

Firstly, where I agree:


The division of classes is all the same, and inequality is worse. Marx's analysis is perfectly valid for first-world. Of course, the small pieces of bread given to the proletariat become bigger as the economy gets better. Yet why should we stick with this? I can't stand going out and seeing piles of homeless people everywhere anymore. I or someone I know could easily become one of them soon.

I should have clarified, I agree, the division is more stark from top to bottom, but there is a muddled "middle class". Yes, I do also agree that is a neoliberal myth that is pushed down everyones throats but the point is that they don't view themselves as part of a general working class.

It takes a little bit of homework to understand that though so for the sake of making the Left's message clearer perhaps there should be a re-branding of terminology and approach to appeal to contemporary society. Plus the typical fire-banding just irks me. I do not work in a coal mine in Yorkshire if you get what I'm driving at.


One first needs to wonder if such a revolution is really a revolution rather than a coup. But not many people here support a vanguard.

Again agreed, but revolutions usually have an active contingent that drive it to fruition, or take the initiative. You can say that in this being fair game, a small group of extreme right radicals can have a good chance of taking power, which has happened often. I would argue that many executed revolutions had a very "coup" like flavor to them. The October revolution for one was supported mostly due to the fact that it promised something different, not necessarily Bolshevism. Most Russians, as most people today, were not well educated on the tenants of Marx.

Where I disagree:


They don't need to know anything about the subject more than that. The revolution comes from the materially-fuelled struggle.

This is the part I have problems with some lines of thought in the far left. Capitalists can claim similarly, "the free market is the best way to produce goods and is the best system" so take our word for it and carry on. You have to conscious and broad support, especially if you are radically changing the order of things.


Small business is small capital, and to support them in an USA-like manner is opportunism. What is wrong with the resources being collectively used, with the initiatives created by the collective planning of society? It would do better than 'small business' - which is yet another Newspeak term created by neoliberalism, by the way, such as 'middle class' and others.

I never said I supported them "in a USA like manner" in fact you can argue that cafes, bakeries, and bookstores have been around a hell of a lot longer than the US, capitalism, etc. Can central governance really tailor those minor operations? The lions share of today's inequality is not the mom and pop hardware store, but financial institutions and so forth. Lots of proprietors then belong to that "middle-class". Thats a large chunk of population you don't want to alienate? Perhaps my view on this can be labeled reactionary but as a pragmatist you want to eliminate the most pressing issues first while garnering as much support.


I agree. I argued a while ago for a clean break with that mentality.

Pretty much spot on

*Also, I don't know how to attribute the quotes... that can get messy if I'm quoting different people*

[RedWorker]

This is the part I have problems with some lines of thought in the far left. Capitalists can claim similarly, "the free market is the best way to produce goods and is the best system" so take our word for it and carry on. You have to conscious and broad support, especially if you are radically changing the order of things.

The working class is going to fight for their immediate interests, given minimal consciousness. Let's say the government wants to raise the retirement age or lower the minimum wage. Working class people would oppose that instantly. In the same manner, they'll always be fighting for their immediate interests. As soon as a movement exists, the working class will support it massively. Such a movement does not currently exist.


I never said I supported them "in a USA like manner" in fact you can argue that cafes, bakeries, and bookstores have been around a hell of a lot longer than the US, capitalism, etc. Can central governance really tailor those minor operations?

Yes, supporting them in an USA like manner, which praises them while blaming everything on "monopolies" and "corporations", which "hinder the free market" (but are created by it). You're creating a false dichotomy here. Nobody is asking for 'central governance'. Look at the Spanish revolution. All these little shops were taken over by workers and had the red and black flag and the hammer and sickle everywhere. Where was the central governance?

[White_Sun]

The working class is going to fight for their immediate interests, given minimal consciousness. Let's say the government wants to raise the retirement age or lower the minimum wage. Working class people would oppose that instantly. In the same manner, they'll always be fighting for their immediate interests. As soon as a movement exists, the working class will support it massively. Such a movement does not currently exist.

I think we are pretty much in agreement. There is no movement that supports the working class' interests as a whole. Part of what I was saying earlier is that interests of the working class have been perceived as fractured (intentionally or not it does not matter). Therefore a new approach by whatever movement is needed, traditional Marxist lexicon although true, sounds awkward these days if you don't associate with Marxism. I don't know, maybe we need a Justin Bieber of sorts...


Yes, supporting them in an USA like manner, which praises them while blaming everything on "monopolies" and "corporations", which "hinder the free market" (but are created by them). You're creating a false dichotomy here. Nobody is asking for 'central governance'. Look at the Spanish revolution. All these little shops were taken over by workers and had the red and black flag and the hammer and sickle everywhere. Where was the central governance?

Well I never said that if it wasn't for nasty ol' corporations the free market is a ok.

Admittedly, I jumped the gun on talking about central governance, it's an instinctual reaction from arguing with Stalinists and Maoists.

Out of curiosity, what was the structure of those little shops being taken over? Was it haphazard? Did the original owners simply agree to profit sharing or a different pay structure? I'm going to risk venturing into the free-market zone temporarily by saying that I have little faith in the average cashier or barista with little actual knowledge of how to run a small business... well run a business (it's mind bogglingly simple of course, but many people are happy with just punching in and out of the clock). Is there a graduated pay scale? If so what is the criteria?

I would argue that true socialism/communism would materialize slowly as major inequality issues are ironed out, not that I can say much of anything as an authority, but opinions and debate right? :grin:

[The Idler]

hi white sun