US Hands off the Democractic People's Republic of Korea!

[jirat_commie]

Korea is One! US Hands off the DPRK!

[Red Star Rising]

DPRK really isn't what Revleft is about.

[Per Levy]

Korea is One! US Hands off the DPRK!

thanks for letting us now, the us gouverment is probally reading this thread and takes it message to the heart.

[Hrafn]

Welcome to the Revolutionary Left Cosplay and Reenactment Society.

[consuming negativity]

i will cut in half whichever mod approved this thread

[G4b3n]

Korea is one what? Shitty place for workers?

[DOOM]

Korea is one what? Shitty place for workers?

Shitty place for humans in general.
God dammit why in heaven's name would one support the DPRK.
Fucking LARPies

[Sasha]

Welcome to the Revolutionary Left Cosplay and Reenactment Society.

We from the BDMPIPF (Basement Dweller Meaningless Posturing on the Internet Peoples Front) declare that the RLCRS are bourgeois revisionists and suspend you from our 9th and three quarter International

[BITW434]

Korea is one what? Shitty place for workers?
I can't believe you would lap up such bourgeois propaganda. It's common knowledge that the Korean proletariat is the most emancipated on earth.

[prap]

Korea is One! US Hands off the DPRK!

You're right Korea is (about) one and one only; Kimmie. Stalinists are the psychos of the leftist movement.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Yeah, the US should get their hands off of Korea. So should the parasitic North Korean bureaucracy.

[Illegalitarian]

Well, there is a difference between supporting the DPRK and supporting the DPRK's right to not be fucked with by the west I'd say.

[DOOM]

We from the BDMPIPF (Basement Dweller Meaningless Posturing on the Internet Peoples Front) declare that the RLCRS are bourgeois revisionists and suspend you from our 9th and three quarter International

iS-0Az7dgRY

[The Feral Underclass]

Press Release from the DPRK on jirat_commie (http://boingboing.net/features/northkorea/?traitor=jirat_commie)

[Red Banana]

Was anyone else's browser redirected to various spam websites and/or got a pop up ad after clicking on this thread?

Edit: Nevermind, it's all threads. Something wierd is going on.

[Hrafn]

Was anyone else's browser redirected to various spam websites and/or got a pop up ad after clicking on this thread?

Edit: Nevermind, it's all threads. Something wierd is going on.

Not moi.

[Tim Cornelis]

Okay, these revleft pop ups are ridiculously intrusive. Sometimes I can't even type in the message thing I'm typing in right now. And I'm saying this here because I can't type in a more appropriate subforum.

Support the Deformed Workers' State of North Korea's Right to Forcefully Abort Interracial Children to keep the Korean race pure.

[The Feral Underclass]

Was anyone else's browser redirected to various spam websites and/or got a pop up ad after clicking on this thread?

Edit: Nevermind, it's all threads. Something wierd is going on.

The admins have had to reintroduce ads because the server costs aren't being met through subscription.

[Destroyer of Illusions]

[spoil] the Deformed Workers' State


the psychos of the leftist movement.Deformed or not,but it is a worker's state,and this is a valuable recognition,and if the worker's state is a psychos of some leftists,then this sort of leftists is a psychos of the working movement.

And in any case, the attitude to the remaining communist countries is a good lakmus leftist and pseudo-leftist test.

[Sinister Intents]

Deformed or not,but it is a worker's state,and this is a valuable recognition,and if the worker's state is a psychos of some leftists,then this sort of leftists is a psychos of the working movement.

And in any case, the attitude to the remaining communist countries is a good lakmus leftist and pseudo-leftist test.

The DPRK was not a worker's state, and is still not a worker's state. It's a state ruled by a dynastic order, after all Kim Il Sung ruled, then Kim Jong Il, the Kim Jong Un, and then briefly either Kim Jong Il's or Un's sister took over or something similar I heard on the news. The Kim's rule, with their friends, with an iron fist. Everything centers around Pyongyang and the Kim family and their friends, that family makes up their order and centralizes everything around them. It's all about benefiting the top for them. The majority live in slave labor camps, and those that aren't subjected to a concentration camp live in constant fear. The state exerts it's utter totality, it's a state in it's purest in North Korea. There is nothing worker or proletarian about it.

[Sinister Intents]

Korea is One! US Hands off the DPRK!

Who do you think you are?

[Destroyer of Illusions]

I don't care in the form of government in Korea,ie in superstructure, I care in it's economic base wich,as it is known, works not for profit but to satisfy the needs of workers.

[Sinister Intents]

I don't care in the form of government in Korea,ie in superstructure, I care in it's economic base wich,as it is known, works not for profit but to satisfy the the needs of workers.

Sure whatever you say.

I'm bored so I'll just talk to you because it'll be fun. Can you use proper English or is that beneath you?

The state in North Korea benefits the Kim's and their friends, they get direct benefit from the brutal enslavement and violent coercion of the Korean people. How does working the majority of their lives for little to no wage, and what they produce they don't even get to use, the state nationalized the means and modes of production, all production benefits the nation's bourgeoisie and the dynastic ruling family. The worker's benefit the Korean Bourgeoisie

[John Nada]

God this thread is trash. The DPRK isn't hell on earth, it isn't a utopia. There's a lot of bullshit propaganda about the DPRK. No one here's going to give them a guide to socialism, and the US sure as hell won't.

[Sinister Intents]

The DPRK is most certainly not paving its way towards socialism, its a pretty despotic regime with an overgrown military and an egotistical clique at its head. It is hell for those that are oppressed, I'm pretty sure it'd make people who lived in the FSU want the Stalin days back.

[Palmares]

http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i56/2/12/3/frabz-Leave-North-korea-alone-05874d.jpg

[John Nada]

The DPRK is most certainly not paving its way towards socialism, its a pretty despotic regime with an overgrown military and an egotistical clique at its head. It is hell for those that are oppressed, I'm pretty sure it'd make people who lived in the FSU want the Stalin days back.Funny thing is Yeltsin's counterrevolution fucked up shit so much that a lot of people in the fSU DO want Stalin back.

I'm sure shit sucks there, but I just don't see what special condemnation DPRK deserves that doesn't also apply to a fuckload of other countries. The US does exaggerate how bad the DPRK is. They want them to look like a new Nazi Germany in preparation for a possible war, which is still technically going. Which feeds into their oversized military.

[Sasha]

please point me to all these other countries where thousands get dissapeared without trial into slave labor camps when someone in their family is suspected of thoughtcrime...

[John Nada]

please point me to all these other countries where thousands get dissapeared without trial into slave labor camps when someone in their family is suspected of thoughtcrime...Way too many that I don't feel like listing. Here's one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

[Palmares]

Okay... so if I was to compare this to the "Russia is a shithole..." thread, I gotta say, I would prefer to live in Russia. Maybe DPRK isn't as bad as the "propaganda" says, but I believe there's still enough evidence to prove that living in the DPRK would be royally shit. It's no real surprise so many people are trying to escape that place. The way people escape there, is like the way people are trying to sneak over the Mexican border into the US.

So yeah, of course there's lots of shitholes out there, but the DPRK is totally tending towards the bottom.

http://elitedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/BG9mlvuCAAEm7nn.jpeg

[The Intransigent Faction]

This is why you sometimes hear about them defecting back, which I used to think was strange.

I've actually never heard of a single case of this happening. I've heard of defections to North Korea, but not back to North Korea. I'd be very interested in any links you could share.

If these people faced suspicion in South Korea, one can only imagine the kind of suspicion they would face upon returning to North Korea. Especially considering many of them leave family members behind when they leave.

[Per Levy]

Deformed or not,but it is a worker's state,and this is a valuable recognition,and if the worker's state is a psychos of some leftists,then this sort of leftists is a psychos of the working movement.

And in any case, the attitude to the remaining communist countries is a good lakmus leftist and pseudo-leftist test.

i wonder how you can call yourself destryoer of illusions if you habour so many illusions yourself?

[John Nada]

I've actually never heard of a single case of this happening. I've heard of defections to North Korea, but not back to North Korea. I'd be very interested in any links you could share.

If these people faced suspicion in South Korea, one can only imagine the kind of suspicion they would face upon returning to North Korea. Especially considering many of them leave family members behind when they leave.A lot of them come back for their families, out of loneliness. There's a couple links on it in this Wikipedia(sorry:(): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_defectors#Re-defectors

I was thinking of starting a thread that about what happened to that American who intentionally got arrested in North Korea. It's kind of hilarious. But I think everyone's probably all juched' out now.

[Tim Cornelis]

North Korea is an ethnic nationalist far-right dictatorship. It's disturbing what a little red flag waving affects among a certain type of self-proclaimed 'communists'. Supposedly, workers don't work for profits but for the benefit of the workers. Of course, without any control of the workers in the decision-making process this makes no sense whatsoever. These people have no idea what a workers' state is (spoiler: it's not surplus value extracted from wage-labour and then used for 'social purposes').


Way too many that I don't feel like listing. Here's one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

Please, families being detained for the thoughtcrime of one of its members? I'd really like a source for that. Or was the wikipedia page a substitute for a lack thereof?

[Palmares]

I've actually never heard of a single case of this happening. I've heard of defections to North Korea, but not back to North Korea. I'd be very interested in any links you could share.

If these people faced suspicion in South Korea, one can only imagine the kind of suspicion they would face upon returning to North Korea. Especially considering many of them leave family members behind when they leave.

I had heard of some, but more specifically:


It is impossible to tell how many defectors have returned to the North. The unification ministry says it has records of only 13 double-defectors, three of whom ended up returning to South Korea.
Anecdotal evidence suggests the number is far higher. The South Korean JoongAng Ilbo newspaper quoted a former MP as saying that about 100 people had fled to the North via China in 2012 – a figure dismissed by the unification ministry – while about 800 defectors known to have arrived in South Korea are unaccounted for. Son says he knows of 70 to 80 North Koreans who are “desperate” to go home.
While the numbers are disputed, North Korea watchers say there are definite signs the country has launched campaign under Kim Jong-un to woo defectors back home, reportedly with offers of cash, a job and a home.
Security agents have been visiting the families of defectors and telling them that it is safe for their loved ones to return, a Reuters investigation found last year. There are unconfirmed reports of agents who have infiltrated South Korea, offering defectors up to $45,000 and an appearance on TV.
Over the past year, Pyongyang has staged at least half a dozen media appearances (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/29/north-korea-defector-returns-south) by double defectors, although all appeared to have been meticulously choreographed, with returnees publicly pledging loyalty to Kim and criticising the grim realities of life in the capitalist south.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/22/defector-wants-to-go-back-north-korea


John Brown, there are many hardships faced by people who defect from the DPRK, you are right. For some, it's worth it. For others, it's not. Afterall, the DPRK isn't hell on earth. There are things there that the locals (and the foreign defectors!) really enjoy. That is of course part of the reason why some wish return home. Not to mention unsurprisingly they wish relatives left behind.


Nayoung Koh, in the Guardian[/SIZE]]I miss my friendships and the innocent people in North Korea. Although we were poor, we were all friends with our neighbours and we all were very close in North Korea.
Life in South Korea may be affluent and wealthy, but South Koreans aren’t as innocent or sympathetic as North Koreans. It was the most difficult thing about starting anew in South Korea.
Back in North Korea, people always shared food with each other on holidays. But South Koreans are individualistic, and they don’t even know who lives right next door after living in the same apartment complex for 10 years.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/06/defectors-what-we-miss-most-about-life-in-north-korea

More interviews of defectors in the above link.


So of course, it's not clear cut. There's pros and cons of every place. I'm certainly not saying South Korea is the best place on earth, but compared to life in the DPRK, it seems defecting is at least worth a try for some. And it would seem most prefer not to go back.

Some more links on defecting:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/29/north-korea-defector-returns-south

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-26340583

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

People generally don't defect from a single country in large numbers without a really good reason, with that being said there is every incentive for detectors to make the most outlandish claims possible, which isn't to suggest they're lying about all of it either. No one wants to risk getting sent back, and its not like they're going to have detailed information about what policies SK has regarding detectors before they actually get there. I'm equally irritated by NK supporters and people that swallow whole the western narrative about the country as well. I mean shit, we have slave labor camps here in the US too. But we have plumbing and electricity in them, so its ok I guess.

[Sasha]

Way too many that I don't feel like listing. Here's one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

But North-korean slave labour camp is best slave labour camp....
All joking aside, the US prison system is pretty brutal and exploitative but if you think its anything remotely on par with the gulag system in the NDPRK your an usefull idiot.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I'm sure the black inmates laboring in Louisiana cotton fields for 10¢ an hour care deeply. No man, the US is a hypocritical piece of shit when it comes to this, neither one is any more justified than the other.

[Tim Cornelis]

Refugees giving independent reports that are internally consistent between them lends credibility to their reports. It would be an amazing coincidence if multiple refugees make the same outlandish claim that they made up.

Some, like Ethics Gradient above, tries to draw parallels with the USA. I think these are unfounded. First, I don't think it's accurate to identify either prison institution as slave labour -- forced labour is more accurate. But, I would say that North Korea has no parallel in the modern world. In the USA, prison labour is a cheap source of labour and disproportionately affects poor and poor non-European people. But not only is there a difference in plumbing, electricity, also the lack of gas chamber and medical experiments of the category Unit 731 and Mengele, the food security, and the scale of physical violence against inmates is completely skewed. Public executions, beatings, child inmates born into prison, beatings to death, eating worms and rats for lack of food, brutal policing -- these do not stand on an equal footing based no matter how you look at it. Moreover, the number of political prisoners in the USA is slim, whereas in North Korea it's in the thousands, and, as stated, this involves a 'three generation family' rule. I think invoking the USA or whatever serves a bit as a red herring. And presumably where I see some as apologists for the DPRK, others would see me as an unaware mouthpiece of the West. But I would say roughly the same in a comparison between Syria, Iran, Qatar, Bahrein, China, Russia, Belarus, versus North Korea. All those regimes do not have the same level of abhorrent crimes committed by the state. The scale, severity, and systematic nature are unparalleled.

And no, this does not mean buying into the 'Western narrative'. Why is there not a similar narrative about Cuba, a country so close near the Western world hegemon? Everyone should read the UN report 'Report of the commission of inquiry on human rights in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea', or the abridged version at least. I see no reason to doubt the credibility.


"26. Throughout the history of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, among the most striking features of the State has been its claim to an absolute monopoly over information and total control of organized social life. The commission finds that there is an almost complete denial of the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as well as of the rights to freedom of opinion, expression, information and association."

"27. The State operates an all-encompassing indoctrination machine that takes root from childhood to propagate an official personality cult and to manufacture absolute obedience to the Supreme Leader (Suryong), effectively to the exclusion of any thought independent of official ideology and State propaganda. Propaganda is further used by the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea to incite nationalistic hatred towards official enemies of the State, including Japan, the United States of America and the Republic of Korea, and their nationals."

"32. The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea presents itself as a State where equality, non-discrimination and equal rights in all sectors have been fully achieved and implemented. In reality, it is a rigidly stratified society with entrenched patterns of discrimination, although these are being modified to some extent by the transformative socioeconomic changes introduced by market forces and technological developments. State-sponsored discrimination in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is pervasive, but is also shifting. Discrimination is rooted in the songbun system, which classifies people on the basis of State-assigned social class and birth, and also includes consideration of political opinions and religion. Songbun intersects with gender-based discrimination, which is equally pervasive. Discrimination is also practised on the basis of disability, although there are signs that the State may have begun to address this particular issue."

"33. The songbun system used to be the most important factor in determining where individuals were allowed to live; what sort of accommodation they had; what occupations they were assigned to; whether they were effectively able to attend school, in particular university; how much food they received; and even whom they might marry."

"34. Early reforms aimed at ensuring formal legal equality have not resulted in gender equality. Discrimination against women remains pervasive in all aspects of society. Indeed, it might even be increasing, as the male-dominated State preys on both economically advancing women and marginalized women. Many women, survival-driven during the famine of the 1990s, began operating private markets. The State imposed, however, many restrictions on female-dominated markets. Gender discrimination also takes the form of women being targeted to pay bribes or fines. There is recent evidence that women are beginning to object and to resist such impositions"

"35. The economic advances of women have not been matched by advances in the social and political spheres. Entrenched traditional patriarchal attitudes and violence against women persist in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. The State has imposed blatantly discriminatory restrictions on women in an attempt to maintain the gender stereotype of the pure and innocent Korean woman. Sexual and gender-based violence against women is prevalent throughout all areas of society. Victims are not afforded protection from the State, support services or recourse to justice. In the political sphere, women make up just 5 per cent of the top political cadre and 10 per cent of central government employees."

"37. While discrimination exists to some extent in all societies, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea has practised a form of official discrimination that has had a very significant impact on individual enjoyment of human rights. Given the exceptional extent of State control, this official discrimination influences most aspects of people’s lives. Discrimination remains a major means for the leadership to maintain control against perceived threats, both internal and external. "

"41. In an attempt to keep Pyongyang’s “pure” and untainted image, the State systematically banishes entire families from the capital city if one family member commits what is deemed to be a serious crime or political wrong. For the same reason, the large number of street children migrating clandestinely to Pyongyang and other cities – principally in search of food – are subject to arrest and forcible transfer back to their home provinces, experiencing neglect and forced institutionalization on their return. "

"42. The State imposes a virtually absolute ban on ordinary citizens travelling abroad, thereby violating their human right to leave the country. Despite the enforcement of this ban through strict border controls, nationals still take the risk of fleeing, mainly to China. When they are apprehended or forcibly repatriated, officials from the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea systematically subject them to persecution, torture, prolonged arbitrary detention and, in some cases, sexual violence, including during invasive body searches. Repatriated women who are pregnant are regularly subjected to forced abortions, and babies born to repatriated women are often killed. These practices are driven by racist attitudes towards interracial children of Koreans, and the intent to punish further women who have left the country and their assumed contact with Chinese men. Persons found to have been in contact with officials or nationals from the Republic of Korea or with Christian churches may be forcibly “disappeared” into political prison camps, imprisoned in ordinary prisons or even summarily executed."

"44. Discrimination against women and their vulnerable status in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, as well as the prospect of refoulement, make women extremely vulnerable to trafficking in persons. Many women are trafficked by force or deception from the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea into or within China for the purposes of exploitation in forced marriage or concubinage, or prostitution under coercive circumstances. An estimated 20,000 children born to women from the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea are currently in China. These children are deprived of their rights to birth registration, nationality, education and health care because their birth cannot be registered without exposing the mother to the risk of refoulement by China"

"60. In the political prison camps of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, the inmate population has been gradually eliminated through deliberate starvation, forced labour, executions, torture, rape and the denial of reproductive rights enforced through punishment, forced abortion and infanticide. The commission estimates that hundreds of thousands of political prisoners have perished in these camps over the past five decades. The unspeakable atrocities that are being committed against inmates of the kwanliso political prison camps resemble the horrors of camps that totalitarian States established during the twentieth century."

"61. Although the authorities in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea deny the existence of the camps, this claim was shown to be false by the testimonies of former guards, inmates and neighbours. Satellite imagery proves that the camp system continues to be in operation. While the number of political prison camps and inmates has decreased owing to deaths and some releases, it is estimated that between 80,000 and 120,000 political prisoners are currently detained in four large political prison camps"

"76. These crimes against humanity entail extermination, murder, enslavement, torture, imprisonment, rape, forced abortions and other sexual violence, persecution on political, religious, racial and gender grounds, the forcible transfer of populations, the enforced disappearance of persons and the inhumane act of knowingly causing prolonged starvation. The commission further finds that crimes against humanity are ongoing in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea because the policies, institutions and patterns of impunity that lie at their heart remain in place."

So we have this highly stratified, deeply sexist, racist military dictatorship. Needless to say, anyone who supports such a regime, has no place on the revolutionary left.

[Loony Le Fist]

Korea is One! US Hands off the DPRK!

Fuck US imperialism. And fuck the DPRK too.

[Loony Le Fist]

I'm sure the black inmates laboring in Louisiana cotton fields for 10¢ an hour care deeply. No man, the US is a hypocritical piece of shit when it comes to this, neither one is any more justified than the other.

The US is headed in this direction, but at this point I don't think one can really compare atrocities in DPRK gulags to the US prison system. No one is more justified than the other, but ask yourself which you would choose to be a part of, if forced into that dichotomy.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Wait who isn't a 'political prisoner' in the context of a white supremacist government and justice system? And Its weird that you're trying to group me in with DPRK supporting wingnuts, since I never accused the defectors of lying wholesale about anything, only that some of the more sensational stories that cant be vereified are nonetheless repeated without any sense of shame. For instance; the recent uncle that was declared to have been eaten alive by dogs all over the news. This is some 'Iraqi soldiers eating babies out of hospital incubators in Kuwait' bullshit.

No offense but it's kind of funny to hear two white dudes from Europe shrug off prison labor in the US so easily. It's not so simple for me, and like I said I doubt the people out in the fields can live with it as easily as you seem to be able to. My hostility towards the DPRK doesn't justify America's brand of slave labor in my mind, both are heinous crimes.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

The US is headed in this direction, but at this point I don't think one can really compare atrocities in DPRK gulags to the US prison system. No one is more justified than the other, but ask yourself which you would choose to be a part of, if you forced into that dichotomy.

If I abuse my children with an open hand, do you think I would be in a position to pass judgement on you when you abuse yours with a metal rod? This is a stupid game.

[Sasha]

obviously we dont shrug off the US prison-industraial complex. but to take your own example, among the "anti-imp" left the "kuwait incubator" story is always on quick file (and as far as i know it was claimed they tossed the kids out to plunder the inqubators, not eat them by the way) as soon anyone wants to talk about the human rights situation under Saddam.
sorry but the fact that that story was imperialist war propaganda doesn't make the facts that Sadams regime murdered and tortured thousands invalid, every time the UN or HRW or Amnesty presents a report on the anti-imp darlings like Saddam, Gadaffi, Assad, Kims, Khomeini etc etc we hear "incubators!!" "dogs!!" "propaganda!!" well news flash, all those reports have, maybe excluding some details, been confirmed every time the regime collapsed. like Tim says, why is the main charges against Cuba so much different than of those other authoritarian regimes? because those regimes are substantively more actually doing all that horrible shit.

[Tim Cornelis]

Wait who isn't a 'political prisoner' in the context of a white supremacist government and justice system?

Look up the definition of political prisoner -- someone imprisoned for criticising or opposing the government.

(also one of my pet peeves, the far left reinventing words)


No offense but it's kind of funny to hear two white dudes from Europe shrug off prison labor in the US so easily. It's not so simple for me, and like I said I doubt the people out in the fields can live with it as easily as you seem to be able to. My hostility towards the DPRK doesn't justify America's brand of slave labor in my mind, both are heinous crimes.

No offence but it's kinda funny to hear a dude from the USA shrug off North Korean prison life by equating it with the US.


If I abuse my children with an open hand, do you think I would be in a position to pass judgement on you when you abuse yours with a metal rod? This is a stupid game.

So who here is a member of the US government?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

obviously we dont shrug off the US prison-industraial complex. but to take your own example, among the "anti-imp" left the "kuwait incubator" story is always on quick file (and as far as i know it was claimed they tossed the kids out to plunder the inqubators, not eat them by the way) as soon anyone wants to talk about the human rights situation under Saddam.
sorry but the fact that that story was imperialist war propaganda doesn't make the facts that Sadams regime murdered and tortured thousands invalid, every time the UN or HRW or Amnesty presents a report on the anti-imp darlings like Saddam, Gadaffi, Assad, Kims, Khomeini etc etc we hear "incubators!!" "dogs!!" "propaganda!!" well news flash, all those reports have, maybe excluding some details, been confirmed every time the regime collapsed. like Tim says, why is the main charges against Cuba so much different than of those other authoritarian regimes? because those regimes are substantively more actually doing all that horrible shit.

The sensational stories play a role, they circulate for a reason they aren't an accident. We should be interested in maintaining our autonomy from both the wingnut anti-amps and the establishment narrative. The story was that they were eating them, which funny enough was a reused propaganda piece from WW1 that had been aimed at bolstering US support for a war against Germany. When we tear down the Western narrative about NK, or any other anti-imp posterchild for that matter, we aren't defending them or making their real crimes disappear, we're attacking the establishment and opening an opportunity for meaningful opposition to both the US and NK, in this particular instance. Playing along with US jingoism is just as dishonest as pretending that NK is a workers state. I'm not gonna be anyone's dancing monkey man, fuck that.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Look up the definition of political prisoner -- someone imprisoned for criticising or opposing the government.

(also one of my pet peeves, the far left reinventing words)



No offence but it's kinda funny to hear a dude from the USA shrug off North Korean prison life by equating it with the US.



So who here is a member of the US government?

Everything is political Tim, the fact that the US government and the fucking dictionary doesn't consider crimes of poverty to be political isn't very convincing to me. I haven't shrugged off anything, I'm not suggesting life is sweet for slave labor in NK, I'm saying I don't see a meaningful difference. Not anymore than say wage labor in China vs. wage labor in the US. Are the conditions in the US the same as in China? No. Is the US a operating under a different system other than wage labor as a result of those conditions? No.

I haven't suggested that any of you represent the US government are far as I can tell.

[Tim Cornelis]

Everything is political Tim, the fact that the US government and the fucking dictionary doesn't consider crimes of poverty to be political isn't very convincing to me. I haven't shrugged off anything, I'm not suggesting life is sweet for slave labor in NK, I'm saying I don't see a meaningful difference. Not anymore than say wage labor in China vs. wage labor in the US. Are the conditions in the US the same as in China? No. Is the US a operating under a different system other than wage labor as a result of those conditions? No.

I haven't suggested that any of you represent the US government are far as I can tell.

They're not imprisoned over speaking out or up against the government, that's what I meant, and that's what the phrase means. You can try and play sophistic tricks, but it doesn't matter since the content of what I said remains the same. Using 'political prisoners' exclusively for what it means does not mean you deny that politics (or more accurately social conditions) and non-political crimes are interlinked.

You haven't shrugged off anything? Neither have I. That's my point.

I'm pretty sure those Louisiana inmates would see a meaningful difference. Tell them, "you know the work you do for 8 hours a day (excluding extra time for violating rules) for pennies? Well, what if we increased that to a standard of 13-15 hours a day without the meagre income , and increased the physical strain exerted on your jobs, removed 2 out of three meals, and diminish the amount of the remaining meal so you'll be in a state of perpetual hunger and you'll be forced to eat rats and worms -- many of you will starve nonetheless -- and we'll also imprison all your family members since you apparently have some genetic defect. Your prison sentence will be extended to a lifetime for most/many of you. Your children will be born here and die here as will your children's children. We'll also put in place rigid rules and breaking these rules will result in torturous punishment including cutting of body parts (we'll also beat you without real reason), or public execution (without trial). In addition, we'll also test nerve gases and do other experiments on you."

What will be the response of those Louisiana inmates? 'Oh well, that's basically the same thing we do now' or will they start a prison riot and possibly fight to death to keep the system they have now?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Both groups are targeted and imprisoned for reasons that are purely political. That's enough for me, their incarceration and subsequent enslavement is a vital component of the state's general strategy for remaining in power in such a way as to appear legitimate to the rest of the population. I'm not interested in legalisms, I will take a giant shit on the Merriams and Webster if they're not careful. Keep pushing me Tim goddamnit!

I don't look at a janitor and assume he and I have any different lot in life, both of us are expendable and will be cut when needed, me probably before him even. That doesn't mean our conditions aren't different, that he wouldn't jump at the opportunity to trade places. The question is, does that mean he and I fill a significantly different role in the scheme of things? The answer is no. I dunno man I feel like you're taking this in an irrelevant direction, aesthetics and shit.

[Tim Cornelis]

Purely political? Economical more like. Incidentally, you've taken the opposition to 'dictionary definition' concept and run with it. That is a valid criticism when dealing with essentially contested concepts; political prisoner is not one. And again, there is a significant difference between being locked up for political activism or for a robbery, and we have given that difference a name -- that's how language works after all. I wanted to highlight that difference, and obscuring differences by lumping in different categories under one definition devalues language. Shitting on the dictionary, then, is sophistic.

aesthetics? Come on now. That is basically the same argument that there is no meaningful difference. But can you honestly say that you wouldn't expect a prison revolt in Louisiana if those North Korean policies would be implemented?

[Loony Le Fist]

If I abuse my children with an open hand, do you think I would be in a position to pass judgement on you when you abuse yours with a metal rod? This is a stupid game.

No. However, I can make a judgement as to which one is more detrimental to the child. Does that make sense?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

No I mean those conditions are aesthetic. No doubt that aesthetic is hugely significant on a subjective level. Remember, I'm not arguing that the US keeps it's prisoners in the same living conditions as NK, I'm saying they are hypocritical for attacking NK on actions it performs domestically itself. And then calling into question the judgement or wisdom of people who then swallow the American line on NK without second thought.

Are you going to tell me that the "uniquely political" slave labor used by the NK regime serves no economic function? Come on man what are you even arguing with me about?

Edit: Or the American brand of slave labor for that matter? I cant tell for sure which one you're talking about actually

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

No. However, I can make a judgement as to which one is more detrimental to the child. Does that make sense?


Sure it makes sense, it's not what happens. American propaganda doesn't have a disclaimer in front of it reminding everyone that oh yeah by the way folks we have a million of you locked up at the moment ourselves, now on to main story about how evil North Korea is for locking people up.

[Tim Cornelis]

No I mean those conditions are aesthetic. No doubt that aesthetic is hugely significant on a subjective level. Remember, I'm not arguing that the US keeps it's prisoners in the same living conditions as NK, I'm saying they are hypocritical for attacking NK on actions it performs domestically itself. And then calling into question the judgement or wisdom of people who then swallow the American line on NK without second thought.

Are you going to tell me that the "uniquely political" slave labor used by the NK regime serves no economic function? Come on man what are you even arguing with me about?

Edit: Or the American brand of slave labor for that matter? I cant tell for sure which one you're talking about actually

Again you misconstrue. North Korea has thousands of political prisoners -- again, imprisoned for criticism of the government. I didn't comment on the economic nature, a highlighted a difference. I criticised you for saying that US prisoners are political prisoners, and therefore the situation is the same.

I'm arguing with your trivialisations of the North Korean system.

[Sinister Intents]

Sure it makes sense, it's not what happens. American propaganda doesn't have a disclaimer in front of it reminding everyone that oh yeah by the way folks we have a million of you locked up at the moment ourselves, now on to main story about how evil North Korea is for locking people up.

I hate the good/evil dichotomy, both are horrible places and both are detrimental to tye people inhabiting those states.

[Loony Le Fist]

No I mean those conditions are aesthetic. No doubt that aesthetic is hugely significant on a subjective level. Remember, I'm not arguing that the US keeps it's prisoners in the same living conditions as NK, I'm saying they are hypocritical for attacking NK on actions it performs domestically itself. And then calling into question the judgement or wisdom of people who then swallow the American line on NK without second thought.


I actually agree that American administrations are hypocritical to criticize the DPRK, while continuing down the path towards what is essentially mass imprisonment and extermination of minorities. Two wrongs don't make a right, though. The DPRK isn't right because they happen oppose the US. I can agree with American administrations that the DPRK is shit, while also agreeing that the US is guilty of it's own share of atrocities. I can also claim that I'd rather be locked up in jail in the US, than in the DPRK. I can also claim that I'd rather be locked up in Finland in comparison to those.

Could you elaborate a little more on what you mean by the conditions being aesthetic? It seems like you are saying that concrete differences in the suffering experienced are aesthetic. If that's what you're saying, I'd say that's a pretty tough position to justify.



Are you going to tell me that the "uniquely political" slave labor used by the NK regime serves no economic function? Come on man what are you even arguing with me about?


Not at all. Slave labor has always served an economic function.

Not trying to argue. I'm just trying to understand your position better.



Edit: Or the American brand of slave labor for that matter? I cant tell for sure which one you're talking about actually

I was referring to US prison labor.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Does 30 years in prison feel different if you're doing it because you looked at the commisar wrong vs. you sold drugs because you couldn't get a job that paid a decent wage? I'm sure they have normal criminals in North Korea, do you think they experience something different from 'politicals'? If the US started arresting dissidents en mass, would that signal some kind of change that is significant for reasons I can't grasp?

What is different about 100 political prisoners vs. 100 'non-political' prisoners who nonetheless we agree ended up in prison for reasons of the nations politics?

[Tim Cornelis]

Does 30 years in prison feel different if you're doing it because you looked at the commisar wrong vs. you sold drugs because you couldn't get a job that paid a decent wage? I'm sure they have normal criminals in North Korea, do you think they experience something different from 'politicals'? If the US started arresting dissidents en mass, would that signal some kind of change that is significant for reasons I can't grasp?

What is different about 100 political prisoners vs. 100 'non-political' prisoners who nonetheless we agree ended up in prison for reasons of the nations politics?

If you're going to keep missing the point I'm not going to keep responding.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Tim I haven't at any point suggested that doing time in the US is as bad as doing time in North Korea. The only thing I've pointed out is that the US runs its own slave labor camps in this country, the fact that they are nicer slave labor camps is something I've acknowledged this entire time and I've made it clear is irrelevant from the point I'm making. I don't know what else you're looking for me to say.

The last couple of your posts really have been about aesthetics. If Im in jail for a robery and the guy in the cell next to me is in jail for writing a political pamphlet, I can't see how it possibly matters when it comes time for both of us to work the fields or bust up rocks. And I also don't see how this is relevant to what I am talking about anyhow.

[Tim Cornelis]

Well okay then. Although I would say that you did suggest that as you said, in defiance, "I'm sure the black inmates laboring in Louisiana cotton fields for 10¢ an hour care deeply. No man, the US is a hypocritical piece of shit when it comes to this, neither one is any more justified than the other" in response to: "the US prison system is pretty brutal and exploitative but if you think its anything remotely on par with the gulag system in the NDPRK your an usefull idiot." So clearly you disagreed with what Sasha said; which suggests that you do think the gulag system is remotely on par with US' prison labour -- which I objected to.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Structurally they serve the same purpose. That's the point I'm making not that prisoners in the US sometimes have to resort to cannibalism like their NK counterparts. The fact that the US uses prisons for the same effect as North Korea and then attacks North Korea for keeping prisoners at all, not for just having a small budget for those prisoners as far as living conditions go, is the hypocrisy I'm talking about.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Is leftist opposition to Stalinist Gulags based on the perception that they are inherently worse than the American prison system, or based on both systems being oppressive structures? I'm hoping it's the latter, otherwise we'll be stuck in an historical numbers game comparing the real but exaggerated oppression of a defunct "Eastern Bloc" and North Korea today with the ongoing millions of preventable deaths and suffering under the modern "Western" geopolitical arrangement.

Correcting propagandist distortion of history does matter, but what's really at issue is that these things are/were being done in the name of "socialism" or "communism" by regimes that are in no way, shape or form "socialist" or "communist". Even if every prisoner was well-fed and there were institutionalized guarantees against abuse, that wouldn't make North Korea under any of its leaders "socialist", and leftists then ought to point this out, not say "Well at least North Korean prisoners are better off!".

In short, this is an issue of neither numbers nor degree of suffering, but of oppressive socioeconomic structures or institutions.

[Destroyer of Illusions]

Sure whatever you say.

I'm bored so I'll just talk to you because it'll be fun. Can you use proper English or is that beneath you?

The state in North Korea benefits the Kim's and their friends, they get direct benefit from the brutal enslavement and violent coercion of the Korean people. How does working the majority of their lives for little to no wage, and what they produce they don't even get to use, the state nationalized the means and modes of production, all production benefits the nation's bourgeoisie and the dynastic ruling family. The worker's benefit the Korean Bourgeoisie

English is not my native language,so my mistakes are exusable.It's better to write with mistakes than to write a bullshit in pure English.Thinking that capitalism is possible without market,separate owners,competition and unemployment is a complete idiocy.Remember all of you once and for all : even if it was openly declared that all the means of production in Korea are owned by the party bureaucracy, it would not change anything.The means of production would still remain in public ownership,since in the absence of market the purpose of their work could only be the meeting the needs of society.The connection of the workforce with the means of production would remain direct, the distribution of products could have be only social .Production for profit is possible only when there are multiple owners, communicating with each other in the market.

[Sinister Intents]

Had no clue English wasn't your first language. I'm rather sick so I'll be brief.The DPRK thrives on the enslavement of the masses within its borders, it's thoroughly state capitalist, so the means and modes of production are nationalized and controlled by the ruling bureaucracy which maintains its hegemony with an iron fist. The proletariat of that nation is oppressed and suppressed and treated like machines to churn out use values rather than be allowed any human dignity or decency

[Destroyer of Illusions]

Had no clue English wasn't your first language. I'm rather sick so I'll be brief.The DPRK thrives on the enslavement of the masses within its borders, it's thoroughly state capitalist, so the means and modes of production are nationalized and controlled by the ruling bureaucracy which maintains its hegemony with an iron fist. The proletariat of that nation is oppressed and suppressed and treated like machines to churn out use values rather than be allowed any human dignity or decency

I'm hurrying to work and I'll be brief too.So you think there is a state as a single capitalist and there is capitalist relations in Korea, ie the state byes the labor force to get surplus value.But how it is possible to get the surplus value when the only buyers in the same state are it's workers ?When a capitalist gives a paycheck to his workers and then tries to sell to this workers some goods, how much money he can get ? Only as much as he has given them,not a penny more.

So in short, capitalist exploatation in Korea is impossible.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I'm hurrying to work and I'll be brief too.So you think there is a state as a single capitalist and there is capitalist relations in Korea, ie the state byes the labor force to get surplus value.But how it is possible to get the surplus value when the only buyers in the same state are it's workers ?When a capitalist gives a paycheck to his workers and then tries to sell to this workers some goods, how much money he can get ? Only as much as he has given them,not a penny more.

So in short, capitalist exploatation in Korea is impossible.


DPRK has no export or imports, then?

[Tim Cornelis]

I'm hurrying to work and I'll be brief too.So you think there is a state as a single capitalist and there is capitalist relations in Korea, ie the state byes the labor force to get surplus value.But how it is possible to get the surplus value when the only buyers in the same state are it's workers ?When a capitalist gives a paycheck to his workers and then tries to sell to this workers some goods, how much money he can get ? Only as much as he has given them,not a penny more.

So in short, capitalist exploatation in Korea is impossible.


As was true for the Roman Empire -- Ceaserist socialism.


I bet you believe in the "Left"-right-trotskyite-fascist conspiracy against Stalin. It's consistent.

You can be imprisoned for up to 7 years for saying anything remotely positive about DPRK in south Korea. 1/3 of the country's in the military. If they deserted(which is a capital offense, even in the US) or left during the famine, were totally broke, coached for at least 3 months, threaten with prison and to top it off threaten with deportation back with a snitch jacket, yes I do think they would go along with a consistent narrative.

The report was like Saddam throwing babies out of their incubator, Iraq's nonexistent WMD, or Gaddafi giving his Black mercenaries Viagra to help them rape more. I think a lot of fucked up shit happens, particularly after WWII, the Korean War and the famine, a lot of it is probably true. But I think there is a narrative built up by the US and south Korea too.

Look up psy-ops and COIN. A lot of shit will make more sense.

I bet you believe the Holocaust was fake too. Too far? Perhaps, but Holocaust revisionists use the same arguments to assassinate the possibility of a Holocaust having taken place.

[Illegalitarian]

The US state department, the CIA and many other departments have stated time and time again that the testimonies of refugees are unreliable and should be taken for the anecdotes that they are.

Speaking of anecdotes I had the pleasure of saying with an entire family of DPRK refugees when I was in South Korea a few years back. They said that due to the success of books, seminars etc of some refugees back in the 80's and 90's that many other refugees have tried turning to the media with hopes of making it big in the new world, which means that while they're not all "lying" a lot of what they say is hammed up, or not entirely true.


North Korea isn't the shut-in society one might think it is. Many families have radios capable of picking up signals from both China and the South, and foreign music and books are becoming more and more common with the rise of legal street vendors over the past seven years. When Koryo finally got the green light to let their visitors have some free roam I talked to many average North Koreans, you'd be shocked as the stuff they know about the rest of the world, it's not as if they're all brainwashed drones.

People know what's up, and they know of the success of several people who have escaped to the south.

[Prof. Oblivion]

I'm hurrying to work and I'll be brief too.So you think there is a state as a single capitalist and there is capitalist relations in Korea, ie the state byes the labor force to get surplus value.But how it is possible to get the surplus value when the only buyers in the same state are it's workers ?When a capitalist gives a paycheck to his workers and then tries to sell to this workers some goods, how much money he can get ? Only as much as he has given them,not a penny more.

So in short, capitalist exploatation in Korea is impossible.


I think you are really limited by your ideological predisposition here. All class societies have been characterized by the extraction of surplus labor from producers. So the question then becomes, is that what is going on and, if so, who are those doing the extracting? If you look at it in that vein, it doesn't really matter if you call the extractors "capitalists" or even a "class" per se. In other words, if we look at the facts instead of starting from the point of ideology, we can gain a better understanding of what's going on.

The question of whether or not the DPRK is "capitalist" is superficial and, frankly, quite silly. It leads into such ridiculous debates as to what capitalism is geographically (as if it exists in such a form!), and what extent of homogeneity in social relations must or must not exist. It's a completely dumb debate.

So, is surplus labor extracted from North Korean workers? Where does the surplus go? Who does it benefit? And let's not get into a juridical debate here, let's talk about actual reality.

[DOOM]

English is not my native language,so my mistakes are exusable.It's better to write with mistakes than to write a bullshit in pure English.Thinking that capitalism is possible without market,separate owners,competition and unemployment is a complete idiocy.Remember all of you once and for all : even if it was openly declared that all the means of production in Korea are owned by the party bureaucracy, it would not change anything.The means of production would still remain in public ownership,since in the absence of market the purpose of their work could only be the meeting the needs of society.The connection of the workforce with the means of production would remain direct, the distribution of products could have be only social .Production for profit is possible only when there are multiple owners, communicating with each other in the market.

See, this is a reductionist way of arguing what capitalism is. It's not just about exploitation of workers, it's far more than that.
The goods are still commodities. Thus commodity fetishism hasn't been superseded, which means capitalism is still intact. Because:
the markets are still very intact. To believe that the DPRK is not engaging in any global and economic actions is just..wrong. And even if; this pseudo-socialist-somewhat-mercantilist notion of isolationism being socialism is wrong too. The North-Korean single-market is still very active.
Thus the goods have value and a value form. Thus commodities are distributed unequally.
On a more general note: Work as a fetish-category hasn't been abolished. The distinction between work-time and free-time still exists, which is a historically to capitalism tied construct.
This whole concept of socialist commodity production is just stupid.

[Destroyer of Illusions]

The goods are still commodities.

They are not.As Marx renarked,consumer goods become commodities only because they are the products of separated from each other private works.I'll tell you a secret : they are not private works and no separated producers in Korea. Lenin used to compare socialism with a great single enterprise. Korea is such a great single factory, therefore there is no place neither for the market nor for the commodity-money relations.

I quote Engels once again :

"... it will have to take the control of industry and of all branches of production out of the hands of mutually competing individuals, and instead institute a system in which all these branches of production are operated by society as a whole – that is, for the common account, according to a common plan, and with the participation of all members of society. It will, in other words, abolish competition and replace it with association" .

In Korea all this measures were carried out long time ago.

[Sasha]

if you are forced (either by direct or economic duress) to produce goods that you can not afford to consume you are living in capitalism and no gymnastics with 100 year old scripture is going to change that....

[Hrafn]

they are not private works and no separated producers in Korea.

Except there are.

[Tim Cornelis]

Indeed, of course the North Korean proletariat is separated from the conditions of their labour. They confront the objective conditions of their labour as alien property, as they neither control nor own means of production. This very separation is what is characterised as private ownership. Now, there is, on paper, very little individual ownership (in practice, black markets carry the economy), but state ownership where the direct producers are not part of an association of producers, is private in the sense of Marxism. And of course, there is place for commodity-market relations, the very existence of a universal equivalent is sufficient proof of this. Even if some goods are rationed (again, in practice the black market carries the economy) this negates this fact as much as free access at the point of use-healthcare negates the existence of the commodity form. How anyone can say that there is no place for monetary-commodity relations and therefore markets, when North Korea has a universal equivalent to mediate the exchange of commodities is beyond me. I can only guess that unshakable faith makes that person blind to facts.

Of course, if you choose to disregard these facts, and choose to believe in North Korea's propaganda which has no merit or grain of truth to it in this regards, then I cannot change what you believe, given that it is rooted in unshakable faith. But the facts are clear, you defend a racist, sexist, chauvinist despotic regime as socialist.


FUCK OFF!I'm part Jewish, asshole!:mad:

I used Iraq and Libya as examples of where there was clearly horrific atrocities going on, yet the US still felt it was necessary to make shit up. It's a mix of white, grey and black information. As in true, true but incomplete or unverified, or straight up bullshit.

The US has compared every single fucking enemy to Hitler and the Nazis. They're the gold standard of evil, because everything horrible they were doing was true and worse than what was publicly said. If I thought anyone was going to be the next Nazi Germany, I would want to fight them. This just shows how effective propaganda can be.

So you're Jewish, I don't see how that is relevant at all. I'm a communist. Lots of communists died in the Holocaust as well, or at least in the extermination campaign that killed 12 million. That is about as relevant. Does being Jewish allow you to shit on the victims of the North Korean regime like Holocaust revisionists shit on the victims of the Holocaust? This is a cheap appeal to emotion and honestly that doesn't sit well with me at all. There's a lot of veiled apologetics for North Korea in this thread, by emphasising the unreliability of individual refugees to dismiss the reports that used collections of refugees to check for internal consistency.

[RevolutionaryThinker]

The DPRK is state Capitalist. Not Socialist, or even leftist. So why do you talk about the DPRK on a LEFTIST forum? Take your support for the DPRK to stormfront.

[RevolutionaryThinker]

The reason you should take this issue to stormfront is that the DPRK has similar views as the white nationalists, I'm sure white nationalists respect the DPRK for their attempts to preserve their heritage...just like white nationalists say they want to do. If the DPRK is leftist then I guess you could say the white nationalists that approve are also leftists. I don't want to bring that community to this forum though.

And yeah, nothing Socialist about the DPRK. Could just be the most Capitalist country on earth. State Capitalist that is, and very similar to Stalin's Soviet Union, Stalin was the prophet of state Capitalism.

[Illegalitarian]

The market is very real in the DPRK, there are street vendors everywhere. It was highly illegal, but the new regime realized trying to crackdown on these vendors in light of the fact that people in the non-Pyongyang cities sometimes have a hard time accessing food was futile and now you have little carts everywhere with happy merchants trying to sell you all sorts of things.


There is quite a sizable bourgeois class in Pyongyang, state officials who are more businessmen than anything else. These people are going to China and Russia and seeing the things they have in those places, and bringing stories of them back home that everyone else starts hearing too. One guy talked to me for 10 minutes about KFC in China, and how amazing it was and that there was a group of people in lobbying the government to bring a KFC into Pyongyang which went about as far as you could guess lmfao.

Big change will come very soon, I think.


I think it should be noted for what it's worth though that money doesn't really play too big a role in the DPRK on a day-to-day basis for the majority of people. Most people get free access to food (most places grow their own food communally, so), what few treats they're allowed are either rationed or so cheap that they might as well be free, etc.

This is changing rapidly of course, I noticed big changes even over the short few years I visited, but I found it a kind of endearing quality.

[Destroyer of Illusions]

Indeed, of course the North Korean proletariat is separated from the conditions of their labour. They confront the objective conditions of their labour as alien property, as they neither control nor own means of production. This very separation is what is characterised as private ownership....(in practice, black markets carry the economy

That is to say, all manufactured production in Korea comes to the black market where the product transfers from one owner (state) to another (criminal) , ie the alienation of the product takes place.It would be a strong argument if it wasn't so loughable - judging the social-economic system by the presence of criminality in the country! "Black markets carry the economy" - really? Any facts, any calculations,what percentage of products comes to the black market? Of couse, no facts, no calculations, only empty words they offer to trust unconditionally .

[newdayrising]

Deformed or not,but it is a worker's state,and this is a valuable recognition,and if the worker's state is a psychos of some leftists,then this sort of leftists is a psychos of the working movement.

And in any case, the attitude to the remaining communist countries is a good lakmus leftist and pseudo-leftist test.

I agree. Anyone who believes there are any "communist countries" in the world is indeed a leftist, not a communist.

[RevolutionaryThinker]

I'm part Jewish!

I don't see how that's relevant. So am I. So is almost everyone. The farther back you go the more likely you are to have Jewish ancestors. Are you actually Jewish? Or just 'part Jewish'? You see this is like when an American says 'I'm Irish!' or 'I'm part Irish!'. You aren't fucking Irish. You're American. You would have to actually be from Ireland to be Irish, just as you would have to have been born to a Jewish mother or convert to Judaism according to halakha law to actually be Jewish. If you were not born to a Jewish mother and you have not converted to Judaism according to halakha law you should be the one to 'fuck off'.

[Destroyer of Illusions]

I agree. Anyone who believes there are any "communist countries" in the world is indeed a leftist, not a communist.

I don't believe, I know.Belief is for antistalinist, they show it constantly here.

[Tim Cornelis]

You compare me to a holocaust denier, when the fucking Nazis would have fucking killed me and at least half my family just because of our ethnicity. I doubt pretending I'm only Mexican and not a commie would've helped. Not repression due to politics, but a targeted extermination(genocide) based on race and ethnicity. Fortunately, most of the Jewish part of my family immigrated before the rise of fascism. Don't know what became of the rest.

No appeal to emotions on my part, I've said a lot of it is probably true, just an attempt to point out possible psy-ops(fucking look it up) going on. It is you who compared me(Jewish/Chicano, but this obviously doesn't exempt me from chauvinism, rightism or being wrong) to a fucking fascist.You shit on me, my family and all the victims of fascism(which weren't just communists, but whole families of Jews, Roma, Slavs, Gays, and by Japan, Chinese and Koreans) for your "point."

Somehow acknowledging personal information is some appeal to emotion. I'm just some walking appeal to emotion in your mind. I would've hoped that it would've helped you be more considerate. It's an easy mistake to make online. You can't see me, don't know me and there's not that many Jews in the world. Nope, more shit-talking.That does not sit well with me.

Why don't you find some apologia for US imperialism. Go to hell and look for Iraq's WMDs.

Yes, this essentially the very definition of appeal to emotion. Because this is a supposed emotional deterrent to prevent debate. And I supposedly shit on Holocaust victims..... by thinking it's unfair someone would trivialise, minimise, and/or partially deny the plight of people who've been to something eerily similar. Absurd of course, but you defend this on the basis of some emotional indignation to deflect from this, that is, an appeal to emotion.

"Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy which uses the manipulation of the recipient's emotions, rather than valid logic, to win an argument"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

In the process, incidentally, you also misconstrue what I said. Holocaust revisionism is not fascistic per se. And Jews and Chicanos are perfectly capable of being fascist.

If 'acknowledging personal information' is detached from the question of the validity of the arguments presented, as in your case, and instead serves to incite an emotional response, as in your case, then indeed it is a fallacious appeal to emotion.

It's perfectly possible and perhaps likely that I indirectly know more family and people that died and know more victims (though survivors) of Nazi rule, so what gives you the right to be indignant at my expense? If anything I should be indignant at you for abusing their plight to apologise for the plight of the victims of North Korea's regime. So get off your high horse. Being Jewish does not give you pass on being overlooked for using arguments that are analogous to those of Holocaust, or other genocide, revisionists.


That is to say, all manufactured production in Korea comes to the black market where the product transfers from one owner (state) to another (criminal) , ie the alienation of the product takes place.It would be a strong argument if it wasn't so loughable - judging the social-economic system by the presence of criminality in the country! "Black markets carry the economy" - really? Any facts, any calculations,what percentage of products comes to the black market? Of couse, no facts, no calculations, only empty words they offer to trust unconditionally .

That's not what I said. The state's economy is as capitalist. Read my points again.

[RevolutionaryThinker]

I'm biracial in the American sense, Chicano and White/Jewish. I don't think the Nazis would care if I met the halakha criteria(under which I might be a Jew, or not). I'm not going into my family background with some random person on the internet, I like some privacy. I just took offense to those posts, which were directed at me.

I see where you are coming from. I should lighten up a bit. I don't mind Americans saying they're Irish, they just mean their ancestors were. That's fine by me, I don't want to be a hypocrite, I mean if someone asked me where my ancestors came from I would say "I am this and that" it's just how we talk. Some Europeans take it the wrong way and think we think that we're actually Irish/German or whatever but we really just mean our ancestors....same thing goes for people of Jewish descent, even if they are not really Jews according to Halakha law.

So I apologize for that.

[John Nada]

In the process, incidentally, you also misconstrue what I said. Holocaust revisionism is not fascistic per se. And Jews and Chicanos are perfectly capable of being fascist.

If 'acknowledging personal information' is detached from the question of the validity of the arguments presented, as in your case, and instead serves to incite an emotional response, as in your case, then indeed it is a fallacious appeal to emotion.

It's perfectly possible and perhaps likely that I indirectly know more family and people that died and know more victims (though survivors) of Nazi rule, so what gives you the right to be indignant at my expense? If anything I should be indignant at you for abusing their plight to apologise for the plight of the victims of North Korea's regime. So get off your high horse. Being Jewish does not give you pass on being overlooked for using arguments that are analogous to those of Holocaust, or other genocide, revisionists. No, I was pissed off at being compared to a Holocaust denier, who are often(but not exclusively)fascist. And Latinos and Jews can be fascist too and doesn't give them a free pass, which I said. I have no problem debating(usually), though I can get carried away sometimes. The North Korean government most certainly does some fucked up shit. A lot of what the defectors say is true. I don't dispute that.

However, you gave an ad hominem argument. I was very offended by this. Though to be fair, I shouldn't said you might believe in the Stalinist show trials, even though I was being sarcastic(which doesn't come across the internet well). And you and people you know may well have have been affected by the Holocaust too. I shouldn't have responded liked that, it was stupid and insensitive. Sorry.:(

Believe whatever you want. I don't know you, you don't know me.

[Destroyer of Illusions]

That's not what I said. The state's economy is as capitalist.

Once again.

Capitalism is impossible without private producers.

Capitalism is impossible without market where this produsers compete with each other.

Capitalism is impossible without the economic ruin of some produsers as a result of the competition.

Capitalism is impossible without unemployment as a result of the ruin of producers.

The one who assert that there can be capitalism without separated private produsers, competition,anarchy of production, crisis, unemployment is not communist, is not leftist at all,

[Tim Cornelis]

Once again.

Capitalism is impossible without private producers.

Capitalism is impossible without market where this produsers compete with each other.

Capitalism is impossible without the economic ruin of some produsers as a result of the competition.

Capitalism is impossible without unemployment as a result of the ruin of producers.

The one who assert that there can be capitalism without separated private produsers, competition,anarchy of production, crisis, unemployment is not communist, is not leftist at all,

Once again.

North Korea has private producers. "Private" does not mean 'private' in the judicial sense -- in Marxism we use 'individual' for this type of ownership. The labourers are separated from the objective conditions of their labour, they confront the means of production as alien property. Hence, there is private ownership of the means of production in the form of state ownership. Capitalism is impossible without competition of capitals, singular capitals confronting each other via exchange of commodities. These can be legally owned by the same entity. Hence, why Marx analyses, in Capital vol. III, if I remembered correctly, a joint-venture within which such a competition of capitals can be inferred. State enterprises exchange commodities all the time, which Stalinists defend as just letters of a piece of paper changing, without transfer of ownership -- a legalistic perspective, contrary to Marxism. In Stalinist-type economies (whether Belarus, Myanmar, DPRK, USSR), individual, separate, that is, reciprocally independent, enterprises existed and exist -- and hence, competition of capitals. And commodities are exchanged, and hence there is a market. It may not be a very competitive market on paper (again, in practice, black markets are), but it's a market nonetheless.
And of course, the notion that "capitalism is impossible without unemployment" is a hypothesis, and therefore you using it as an empirical standard is circular reasoning. Nor have you justified this claim with any argument. A reserve army of labour enables capitalists to keep the rate of exploitation up, and hence why 'full employment' would generally lead to difficulties with the disciplining of labour. -- not make it impossible. Hence, why Stalinist regimes have had to resort to brutal force to discipline labour as substitute. So indeed, the lack of unemployment made Soviet capitalism quite inefficient and ineffective:

"The issue of labor discipline lay at the very heart of the antagonistic relationship between the Soviet elite and its work force. That "discipline" was slack in Soviet factories has long been noted by Western and Soviet commentators alike: high labor turnover; absenteeism, closely tied to heavy drinking on and off the job; and, more importantly, a highly irregular pace of work, with periods of intensive labor (usually involving forced overtime) interspersed with countless opportunities for time wasting, slow work, and a general disregard for production quality."

http://libcom.org/history/labor-discipline-decline-soviet-system-don-filtzer

"Workers' living standards declined sharply from 1928 to 1933 by at least half, to a bare subsistence level. Part of this was the disastrous outcome of agricultural Collectivization, but part of it was deliberate policy: to finance the forced industrialization of the First Five-Year Plan (1928-1932) by squeezing the workers with simultaneous pay-cuts and production speed-ups. After 1933, living standards began to recover, but only precariously. For example, by 1937, wages had climbed back to 60% of the 1928 level. Nearly all investment was directed to heavy industry and weapons, rather than consumer goods for working families. Despite a shortage of workers for new industrial projects, fierce repression of independent union activity ensured that wages would remain low."

http://www.cyberussr.com/rus/labor-discip.html

As for the non-existence of unemployment, apparently you are using the mainstream definition of full employment, which is defined as unemployment below 5%. Which is odd considering there's many countries with full employment by that definition.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/charts/north-korea-unemployment-rate.png?s=northkoreunerat

(Presumably you will now attack the source in an effort to preserve your unshakable faith).

A few countries that are non-capitalist by your definition:

North Korea;
Qatar;
Monaco;
Thailand;
Cuba;
China;
UAE;
Brazil;
Austria.
In fact, for some time I have lived in a non-capitalist society. Unemployment before 2008, before the Capitalist Restoration as a result of parasitic finance capital in the USA, was circa 4%. Amazing. I didn't even know.

We can tell the Brazilian revleft user base to cancel their accounts here, socialism has been achieved -- Brazil being ruled by a workers' party and having below 5% unemployment.

Those who defend a far-right highly stratified, deeply sexist, aggressively racist and ethnic chauvinist regime that manages capital in a brutal and highly exploitative manner are... authentic communists? Who are you kidding?

It's also absurd to claim that, even though I advocate a moneyless, stateless, classless society I'm apparently a centrist.

Those who say there can be socialism when there's commodity production, private producers, wage-labour (and thus unemployment and employment), state ownership, surplus value, money and currency, and capital are not communists.

[Prof. Oblivion]

That is to say, all manufactured production in Korea comes to the black market where the product transfers from one owner (state) to another (criminal) , ie the alienation of the product takes place.It would be a strong argument if it wasn't so loughable - judging the social-economic system by the presence of criminality in the country! "Black markets carry the economy" - really? Any facts, any calculations,what percentage of products comes to the black market? Of couse, no facts, no calculations, only empty words they offer to trust unconditionally .

I believe you have yet to face the objective truth, which is that North Korean laborers do have the surplus labor extracted from them in a manner in line with past exploitative societies. You're merely hiding behind quotes and ideology to shield yourself from this empirical fact.

[Prof. Oblivion]

Once again.

Capitalism is impossible without private producers.

You're just sloganeering at this point. These don't really mean anything. Capitalism is a global system, not something you can simply define geographically. Capitalism doesn't exist or not exist based on the number of private producers in a given area. There is no private production on land owned by nationalized industries, are these non-capitalist spaces? On land that does not contain any production - my house, for example - is this land "non-capitalist" because there is no private producer there? What about nature preserves? Are those non-capitalist?


Capitalism is impossible without market where this produsers compete with each other.

What is a "market"? Is it a place where people go to trade goods and services? Because those have existed since time immemorial. They even exist in socialist states.

Alternatively, we could also apply the above argument to this example. Markets exist all over the world. Simply because a market doesn't exist in a specific space, does that make that space non-capitalist? I think - I hope - we're both in agreement on the answer to that question.


Capitalism is impossible without the economic ruin of some produsers as a result of the competition.

But this already does happen. In fact, it happens in the DPRK, too. Who do you think North Korean firms are competing with, and who do you think bears the brunt of the loss when such firms' exports can't compete on the international market?


Capitalism is impossible without unemployment as a result of the ruin of producers.

Australia had a full employment policy for 30 years. Was it non-capitalist?


The one who assert that there can be capitalism without separated private produsers, competition,anarchy of production, crisis, unemployment is not communist, is not leftist at all,

The one who asserts that these factors are a checklist as to whether or not capitalism exists, is the one who is misguided, I'm afraid. Social relations aren't defined in such a simple manner, and taking such a sophomoric approach just leads you to completely miss the point of the discussion. The question "is the DPRK capitalist" is inherently stupid. Instead of making such a shallow argument about whether a country fits the definition of a word, maybe we should be discussing the actual conditions on the ground and the social relations that exist in the country and abroad.