PFLP claims disgusting terror attack on synagogue in jeruzalem

[Sasha]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/jerusalem-synagogue-attack-claimed-by-popular-front-liberation-palestine-1475373

seriously? while i dont deny the right of armed resistance against IDF, cops and even settler paramilitaries to the Palestinians and while maybe not productive thought that the PFLP attack on the extreme-right minister Ze'evi was a legitimate action I hope no one here thinks this shit is defensible in any shape or form.

disgusting and clearly to my better judgment i expected better of the PFLP thinking they where the "still shit but better than the rest" faction of the armed Palestinian groups

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Yeah I saw this and assumed hamas, seeing it claimed by the pflp was disappointing if not necessarily surprising.

[Sasha]

to be fair, the PFLP hasn't claimed it (yet) as an sanctioned action, they just confirmed it where 2 of their members, but they haven't rejected the action out right either

[Red Son]

Totally inexcusable...fucking reprisals will be heavy - rockets that terrify people is one thing but this is brutal and, for want of a better word, barbaric and it will be exploited.

[Sasha]

Yeah I saw this and assumed hamas, seeing it claimed by the pflp was disappointing if not necessarily surprising.


thought it was a stupid action even for Hamas, i expected Islamic Jihad or that weird Al-Qaida aligned sect to be behind it

[DOOM]

PFLP is still a thing?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

to be fair, the PFLP hasn't claimed it (yet) as an sanctioned action, they just confirmed it where 2 of their members, but they haven't rejected the action out right either


It looks too spur of the moment to be an actual operation. I haven't been paying much attention to the latest vehicle attacks that have happened lately, were those pflp people too?

[Sasha]

no i believe they where either unaffiliated or unsanctioned Hamas members. the guy who shot that extreme right activist last month was Islamic Jihad.

and yes, it does seem that tensions in the west bank and east jerusalem are spinning fast out of control, cops killed an palestinian man and lied about it earlier this month, now a bus driver was found dead and the israelis claim he commited suicide while the palestinians believe he was murdered by israeli extremists so this attack should come as no surprise. i wonder whether this could escalate to a full blown 3th intifada. if the israeli government keeps on accusing Abbas of being responsible and he gives up doing their dirty work for them it could certainly escalate to that point.

[Tim Cornelis]

Why be disappointed when this fits perfectly in the modus operandi of this organisation? I'm not disappointed when Hamas would do such a thing, and neither should anyone be disappointed when the PFLP does it. These are the people that think it is a revolutionary act to suicide bomb teenagers do death in a Pizza hut.

[Palmares]

Given all the talk you hear about the Israeli military's killing of civilians in it's attacks on Palestine, now Palestinian groups are championing the inverse? Random perhaps, but not "collateral", as it was targeted, it was murder.

I hope this doesn't become a trend, for then we will have some truly dark days to come.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It sounds like the PFLP is taking credit to up its reputation. The Israeli police commissioner said it was the act of "lone wolves", and the families of the two men responsible have claimed they belonged to no armed group.

[The Feral Underclass]

Does anyone know what the strategy behind this was? What did they expect to happen?

[Sasha]

@ tfu, not much, terror and retaliation, where in the rest of the westbank most settlers are not ultra orthodox in east-jerusalem they are. tension over access to the tempelmount (jews are not allowed to pray at the dome of the rock) has been escalating more and more.
so recently the leader of the activists orthodox was shot, then there where a bunch tit for that murders/attacks and last week a mosque got torched so now they hit a synagogue in turn.

[Lord Testicles]

Is this defensible? Certainly not but it's hardly surprising.

The way that Israel treats the Palestinians I'm honestly surprised that there aren't attacks like this on a weekly basis.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Can we please discuss the actual topic of this thread rather than whether or not Nazis went around measuring noses?

[Sasha]

done: http://www.revleft.com/vb/stupid-discussion-jews-t191335/index.html

[Creative Destruction]

Yeah I saw this and assumed hamas, seeing it claimed by the pflp was disappointing if not necessarily surprising.

previous to the current incursion in Palestinian territory, Hamas were the ones preventing these kinds of attacks. i don't know if that's changed post-war, but i imagine Hamas, as the primary political caretakers, wouldn't have done some dunderheaded shit like the OP story.

[Sasha]

this was east jerusalem, they are under israeli police control, Fatah/PLO controll the nearby Westbank, Hamas the Gaza strip

[Creative Destruction]

this was east jerusalem, they are under israeli police control, Fatah/PLO controll the nearby Westbank, Hamas the Gaza strip

this line has become extremely blurred since Fatah and Hamas did their power brokering deal.

[Devrim]

Yeah I saw this and assumed hamas, seeing it claimed by the pflp was disappointing if not necessarily surprising.

It's certainly not surprising at all. For anyone who hasn't been observing the PLFP has been failing HAMAS for years.

To be honest, I don't understand all the outrage about this on the left at all.

A nationalist gang has killed some people from an opposing national group. It's sort of what they do, and the sort of thing most of the left has been supporting for years.

What special about this incident?

Devrim

[~Spectre]

It sounds like the PFLP is taking credit to up its reputation. The Israeli police commissioner said it was the act of "lone wolves", and the families of the two men responsible have claimed they belonged to no armed group.


Could be. But it's also the case that Israeli diplomats on American television wasted no time in exploiting this to attack the Gaza-West Bank link. Israel has incentives to deny it was the PFLP and blame Hamas.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Here's the PFLP's official statement.

http://pflp.ps/english/2014/11/18/occupation-is-responsible-for-escalation-in-jerusalem/

[Atsumari]

That statement sounds nothing more than a childish excuse. I understand that living under insane conditions makes people do some insane things, but come on.

[Ravn]

That statement sounds nothing more than a childish excuse. I understand that living under insane conditions makes people do some insane things, but come on.


What's really insane here is that you acknowledge conditions face by people as being insane but you're morally outraged at those same people for retaliating against their enemies. So long as the Israelis engage in collective punishment against the Palestinians they're just encouraging more attacks against themselves. That tactic is just an excuse on their part to continue & justify their ethnic cleansing "operation" which they are going to do no matter what anyway

[The Feral Underclass]

I don't agree with these kinds of methods at all, but if we put aside the frenzied nature of the attack and deconstruct this action compared with the bombing of Mosques in Gaza, what is the practical difference?

It is a shame there was not this much condemnation of Jewish settlers who tortured and lynched a Palestinian bus driver recently (a crime so obviously barbaric that the Israeli state have lied about it), or of the Palestinian teenager that was tortured and murdered during the summer. These actions have to be measured in context. Pin-pointing one atrocity above others plays into the Israeli state narrative that Palestinians commit barbaric terrorist attacks on Israelis that justifies their actions. This is one particular action in a long line of actions taken by both sides. The Israeli state and Jewish settlers are responsible for just as viscous an attack as some Palestinian organisations. None of these incidences are worse than any other.

[The Feral Underclass]

What's really insane here is that you acknowledge conditions face by people as being insane but you're morally outraged at those same people for retaliating against their enemies. So long as the Israelis engage in collective punishment against the Palestinians they're just encouraging more attacks against themselves. That tactic is just an excuse on their part to continue & justify their ethnic cleansing "operation" which they are going to do no matter what anyway

But are civilians in prayer really a legitimate target?

[Sasha]

It is a shame there was not this much condemnation of Jewish settlers who tortured and lynched a Palestinian bus driver recently (a crime so obviously barbaric that the Israeli state have lied about it), or of the Palestinian teenager that was tortured and murdered during the summer.

I assume you are talking about condemnation in general because the reason this gets specific attention on this board is obviously because the PFLP claims to be a revolutionary leftist organisation

[The Feral Underclass]

I assume you are talking about condemnation in general because the reason this gets specific attention on this board is obviously because the PFLP claims to be a revolutionary leftist organisation

I clarified my position in the post, but yes I mean generally. I don't think the intention of this thread was to do what I am suggesting, but I think there is definitely a tendency developing in this thread and out of it more generally that people need to be careful of.

[Atsumari]

What's really insane here is that you acknowledge conditions face by people as being insane but you're morally outraged at those same people for retaliating against their enemies. So long as the Israelis engage in collective punishment against the Palestinians they're just encouraging more attacks against themselves. That tactic is just an excuse on their part to continue & justify their ethnic cleansing "operation" which they are going to do no matter what anyway
Oh for fucks sake.
Acknowledging that an oppressed group is doing something bad does not mean that someone sides or ignores the oppressor. Saying X is more evil than Y does not mean that we cannot criticize Y.
Let's take the Shining Path for example. Fujimori was many times more brutal than the Shining Path and there should be no doubt that he is the biggest terrorist in the conflict, but I think all of us would agree that massacring a bunch of peasants is not exactly something that people with a moral compass should be silent about, no matter how fucking brutal the state may be, especially for an organization that prides itself for rallying the peasants.

[The Feral Underclass]

EDIT: Unnecessary.

[Atsumari]

Sorry about that, I was criticizing our friend Ravn for his criticism against me by talking of Israeli atrocities to ignore a Palestinian action that cannot be defended as a pragmatic or moral action.

[The Feral Underclass]

Sorry about that, I was criticizing our friend Ravn, not you.

Okay :)

Without the quote it looked as if you were talking to me.

[Ravn]

Oh for fucks sake.
Acknowledging that an oppressed group is doing something bad does not mean that someone sides or ignores the oppressor. Saying X is more evil than Y does not mean that we cannot criticize Y.
Let's take the Shining Path for example. Fujimori was many times more brutal than the Shining Path and there should be no doubt that he is the biggest terrorist in the conflict, but I think all of us would agree that massacring a bunch of peasants is not exactly something that people with a moral compass should be silent about, no matter how fucking brutal the state may be, especially for an organization that prides itself for rallying the peasants.

You can criticize this terror attack all you want but it's still not morally equivalent to ethnic cleansing which involves mass murder & mass evictions.

& signifying that a bunch of peasants are massacred doesn't signify why they were & under what specific circumstances. War involves killing. To understand what's really going on you have to get beyond moral idealism.

[Sharia Lawn]

Strange how we never see sasha start threads condemning things like this (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/20/world/middleeast/israel-demolishes-family-home-of-palestinian-driver-who-killed-2-pedestrians.html) or this (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/17/world/middleeast/palestinian-shot-by-israeli-troops-at-gaza-border.html). Happens far more often than the kind of story referenced in the OP.

[The Feral Underclass]

Strange how we never see sasha start threads condemning things like this (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/20/world/middleeast/israel-demolishes-family-home-of-palestinian-driver-who-killed-2-pedestrians.html) or this (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/17/world/middleeast/palestinian-shot-by-israeli-troops-at-gaza-border.html). Happens far more often than the kind of story referenced in the OP.

...


I assume you are talking about condemnation in general because the reason this gets specific attention on this board is obviously because the PFLP claims to be a revolutionary leftist organisation

[Sasha]

Last time i checked the IDF doesn't pretend to be an revolutionary marxist organisation. Contrary to what you would like us believe nearly everyone here opposes those actions, me included. Users here also dont raise funds for the IDF nor for the settlers movement while they did for the PFLP.

But to return the insinuation, why do we never see threads about these kind of atrocities from you while you constantly post about the other? Oh wait, you can insinuate I'm a zionist but god forbid anyone would question your motives....

[Sharia Lawn]

And Israel claims to be a secular democracy, while in reality it is a religiously defined settler colonial state, just as North Korea claims to be socialist, when in reality it is a capitalist hellhole. We need look no farther than revleft to see what people claim about their own politics can be dramatically different than the reality of their politics.

You can get pissy about my pointing out that you almost never reference the atrocities committed by Israel against the Palestnians, but it is verifiable. I'm sure you'll always have some nice leftist-sounding justification readymade to explain it, just as Kim Jong Un has some nice leftist sounding justification for his labor camps.

[Tim Cornelis]

Izvestia, I never talk about the atrocities of Boko Haram, therefore I'm probably sympathetic to it?

I also have no idea what you mean by "I'm sure you'll always have some nice leftist-sounding justification for, just as Kim Jong Un has some nice leftist sounding justification for his labor camps."

But more accurately perhaps. When discussing with FARC-supporters I criticise the FARC, when discussing with anti-FARC people I criticise the government, USA, right-wing paramilitaries. There's no need to circle jerk about a particular issue.

[Sasha]

Funny, if I search the board on key words like palestine and israel 9 out of 10 threads I posted are about attacking the occupation and apartheid. Yes, mostly from a leftist israeli perspective because that is a voice which is underrepresented here but I post a lot more consequentially on these subjects than you who seems more concerned about slandering the local Jewish users.
In fact, i think that I'm currently one of the most consequential posters on Israeli repression period on this board.

[Sharia Lawn]

Izvestia, I never talk about the atrocities of Boko Haram, therefore I'm probably sympathetic to it?

If you frequently criticized the Nigerian government's atrocities, while making no mention of BH, that would be suspicious.


I also have no idea what you mean by "I'm sure you'll always have some nice leftist-sounding justification for, just as Kim Jong Un has some nice leftist sounding justification for his labor camps."

But more accurately perhaps. When discussing with FARC-supporters I criticise the FARC, when discussing with anti-FARC people I criticise the government, USA, right-wing paramilitaries. There's no need to circle jerk about a particular issue.You are making exactly my point. Context is important. In a context where an occupied people is struggling against a proxy for the most powerful imperailist power in the world, it's strange that I rarely see Sasha find a word to say about atrocities against the Palestinians. I guess he thinks it's his duty not to, since he thinks that the Israeli government is disproportionately singled out here. There are multiple ways to interpret Sasha's focus, and he will spin the focus in leftist language because we're on an ostensibly leftist board. Posters can decide for themselvse whether they agree with him and what his focus means on an objective political level. The focus, however, is undeniable.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Trashed the little flame war between Izvestia and Ethics Gradient. Do that shit by PM or on each others' profile-walls if you really think it's necessary.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Here's the PFLP's official statement.

http://pflp.ps/english/2014/11/18/occupation-is-responsible-for-escalation-in-jerusalem/

That seems apt. Or, like, it affirms a commitment to struggle against colonialism over sectarian and religious violence; it locates the root of the violence in settler colonialism.

I have some pity for people killed in their place of worship but, y'know, it's like white people who got beat up in the L.A. riots. Kinda sucks, but not surprising or difficult to understand.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I think my pointing out their own lack discussion about the Palestinians was actually valid in the context of their attack on sasha and should stay but yeah the rest was just me fucking around

[Raquin]

I don't see the problem with attacking these settler-colonists per se, they are an integral and essential part of the racist, militaristic, and expansionist machinery of the Zionist Entity. Any sort of genuine emancipatory action in Palestine would lead to large amounts of colonists being killed. That's how decolonisaton works. Moral outrage isn't justified in this case.

The real problem is that these uncoordinated lone wolf attacks are entirely pointless. They'll never lead to Palestinian emancipation or contribute to it in any way. Then again, nothing will. In the coming decades the Zionists will continue what they have been doing since '67 because the Palestinians are too impotent and powerless to do anything about it. More and more land will continue to be stolen from the Palestinians until they have nothing left, they will continue to be driven into ever-smaller open air concentrations camps, and the Zionists will continue their extermination of the Palestinian peoples by suffocating their cultural, economic, and political lives.

[Sasha]

I don't see the problem with attacking these settler-colonists per se.

i dont know if this was a settler neighboorhood and maybe you do but i hope you wouldnt suggest that all orthodox-jews in east jerusalem are settlers period because they have been living there for quite a long time i remember.

[Raquin]

i dont know if this was a settler neighboorhood and maybe you do but i hope you wouldnt suggest that all orthodox-jews in east jerusalem are settlers period because they have been living there for quite a long time i remember.

East Jerusalem is populated only by Zionist colonists or Palestinian. And even if they weren't colonists they're still colloborators of the Zionist apartheid regime and thus valid targets for Palestinians trying to emancipate their people. Whether they are descendents of pre-colonist Palestinian Jews, 20th century Zionist colonists, or Arab Israelis, collaborators are valid targets.

Personally, if I was a Palestinian active in the resistence and emancipation movement, I wouldn't advocate or support such violence. There are way too many Zionist collaborators to kill all of them, even if they deserve it, it's way too dark and unpleasant. There are better and more productive ways to approach the problem.

However, I don't have any moral objections to Palestinian resistence fighters killing collaborators of the racist Zionist military occupation of Palestine. I believe in the concept of personal responsibility. When you make the conscious choice of siding with the Zionists and as a result you get killed, well, I have little to no sympathy for you. There's a degree of tragedy to every killing but when you're basically asking for it by siding with the people that have been so brutally oppressing the Palestinian people for such a long time and you get killed by Palestinians for it, all I can think is, "big whoop".

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

How can you describe them as valid targets on the one hand while describing the prospect of their deaths as "dark" on the other? Are they valid targets or not?

[Sasha]

so people who lived there for about 3 thousand years can become Zionist collaborators for simply not moving out when other people started fighting over the place?
look, i think you are a idiot if you stay there as a jew, fuck, move to tel aviv if you need to stay in israel but demanding that people as native as the most native palestinian just move makes you as bad as the zionist settlers.

[Raquin]

How can you describe them as valid targets on the one hand while describing the prospect of their deaths as "dark" on the other? Are they valid targets or not?
I don't see a contradiction. Just because collaborators are valid targets doesn't mean you have to kill all of them. If after WWII the victors went around killing all the Nazi criminals and their collaborators in Germany, while objectively justified, it would still be pretty dark. Millions of executions. Not a particularly pleasant prospect. Even if you don't mind millions of body bags in and of themselves there are also social, cultural, and economic consequences of justly punishing so many Nazis and Nazi collaborators that have to be considered.


so people who lived there for about 3 thousand years can become Zionist collaborators for simply not moving out when other people started fighting over the place?

No, they're collaborators because their religious, social, political, and economical institutions are consciously designed to reinforce and perpetuate the racist, expansionist, militaristic, and murderous Zionist colonialist regime. Thus they are directly responsible and actively take part in the oppression of the Palestinians, theft of Palestinian land, destruction of Palestinian society and culture, and the military occupation of Palestine.


look, i think you are a idiot if you stay there as a jew, fuck, move to tel aviv if you need to stay in israel but demanding that people as native as the most native palestinian just move makes you as bad as the zionist settlers.I'm not demanding Palestinian Jews move anywhere. I said nothing of the like. Look above.

[Sasha]

any jewish israeli is a legitimate target? isreali kids? israeli anarchist activists? what about arab israeli's?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

No I think there is a contradiction at work here. Is the prospect of every NATO soldier in Afghanistan being killed dark?

[Raquin]

any jewish israeli is a legitimate target? isreali kids? israeli anarchist activists? what about arab israeli's?

Like I already said, I consider any sort of struggle, including violent armed struggle, against the Zionist Entity, to be pointless. It will never amount to anything. The Zionists will eventually destroy the remnants of Palestine and if the Palestinians somehow, probably by withcraft, came anywhere close to emancipating themselves, the Zionist would panic and use their incredible military advantages to carry out a final solution of the Palestinian problem by ethnically cleansing what remains of the Palestinian population in Palestine. But for the sake of argument, let's say the Palestinians have a chance. Alright then, would Jewish Israelis be legitimate targets? Collaborators, yes. Israeli kids? Are you serious? What sort of psycho kills children? Israeli anarchist activists? Collaborators, sure. Arab Isrealis? The collaborating ones, yes, sure, most of all actually. They are the most despicable.

[Sasha]

As residents, East Jerusalemites without Israeli citizenship have the right to vote in municipal elections and play a role in the administration of the city. Residents pay taxes, and following a 1988 Israeli Supreme Court ruling, East Jerusalem residents are guaranteed the right to social security benefits and state health care.

So I guess even all Palestinians in east Jerusalem are collaborators and legitimate targets too according to raquin

[Raquin]

No I think there is a contradiction at work here. Is the prospect of every NATO soldier in Afghanistan being killed dark?
Of course. Like 50,000 people being killed is a pretty tragic event.

Go look at photos of mass graves of SS troops and tell me stacks of human corpses aren't a dark sight, even though they more than deserved it.

[Raquin]

So I guess even all Palestinians in east Jerusalem are collaborators and legitimate targets too according to raquin
A big chunk fo them are collaborators, the majority live under an oppressive military occupation however.

[Sasha]

So your a racist, any Jewish/white person born there, regardless of their position on the israeli nation state is a collaborator but not every Arab... why am I not suprised.

[DOOM]

Of course. Like 50,000 people being killed is a pretty tragic event.

Go look at photos of mass graves of SS troops and tell me stacks of human corpses aren't a dark sight, even though they more than deserved it.

There's nothing even remotely comparable to the crimes the Nazis did, especially not what the "zionists" are doing in the middle east.
This is just bizarre

[Raquin]

So your a racist, any Jewish/white person born there, regardless of their position on the israeli nation state is a collaborator but not every Arab... why am I not suprised.

Yup I'm incredible racist. Sieg Heil! You caught me bro.


So your a racist, any Jewish/white person born there, regardless of their position on the israeli nation state is a collaborator

I said the exact opposite of that.


but not every Arab
Only around 10% of East Jerusalem Arabs have accepted Isreali citizenship, the rest remain aliens in their homeland lorded over by foreign colonists.

[Raquin]

There's nothing even remotely comparable to the crimes the Nazis did, especially not what the "zionists" are doing in the middle east.
This is just bizarre

Are you also illiterate? When did I compare the Nazis to Zionists?

[DOOM]

Are you also illiterate? When did I compare the Nazis to Zionists?

You've put zionists, Nato-soldiers and SS-troops in the same context. I don't know why you would do that, besides of constructing a comparison.

[Raquin]

You've put zionists, Nato-soldiers and SS-troops in the same context. I don't know why you would do that, besides of constructing a comparison.
Zionists had nothing to do with that post and weren't mentioned, the context was SS and NATO only.

[~Spectre]

Like I already said, I consider any sort of struggle, including violent armed struggle, against the Zionist Entity


I understand why liberal nationalists talk this way, but not why so called radical leftists do. Do you say the "American entity" or "The Iranian entity", when referring to those states?

No states are legitimate. So using illegitimacy as a talking point against a particular state presupposes that you think somehow the others ARE legit. Confused liberalism.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I guess I'll have to accept that you would find the deaths of NATO troops to be upsetting on the same level, but I don't really believe it. It seems to me that there is an implicit acknowledgment that these (the civilians not the NATO troops) aren't legitimate targets by describing their deaths as dark, like you know better but are jumping through some idiotic ideological hoops, whatever.

But in response to your question about what kind of psycho kills kids? Probably the same kind of psycho that attacks worshipers with an axe.

[Atsumari]

You can criticize this terror attack all you want but it's still not morally equivalent to ethnic cleansing which involves mass murder & mass evictions.

& signifying that a bunch of peasants are massacred doesn't signify why they were & under what specific circumstances. War involves killing. To understand what's really going on you have to get beyond moral idealism.
In World War II, a bunch of German civilians are killed by food shortages, air raids, and artillery strikes. You can make a case by saying that those are horrible and unfortunate, but sometimes you have to get your hands dirty if you want to defeat fascism.
But then you get the mass rapes of Polish, Hungarian, and German women. The Russians suffered a lot, but let's be real, was that really necessary? In the first situation, you can defend the deaths of German civilians deontologically by saying that the intent was to remove a evil, namely fascism and on a utilitarian level by saying that fascism was destroyed in the end through this act of war. But in the second situation, you cannot deontologically defend rape and on a utilitarian level, rape did not help end the war, it was a result of the Germans losing that allowed the rapes to happen.

Likewise, participating in an Intifada is going to get anyone's hands dirty, but at least the intent is good which is resisting Israeli occupation against an unjust power that must be pacified or routed and if it succeeds, then you have moral ground on a utilitarian level.
Going into a mosque and shooting people is just impossible to defend in terms of intent and result. These civilians are engaging in a non-political act which is going to a mosque and in the end, this action is seen as barbaric and strengthens the Zionist demagogues.
If you want to talk about just acts of killing civillians, then there is the Minsitry of Tourism, Rehavam Zeevi whose career was pretty much built off of oppressing Palestinians.

I would appreciate it if people stop using the "And you are lynching Negroes" counter-argument whenever an anti-imperialist group does something horrible.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Doesn't utilitarianism state that happiness is the only desirable end, and the greatest possible happiness for the greatest number of people should be the objective when making moral decisions? It seems difficult to justify mass rape and murder using those parameters.

[Atsumari]

I did not justify rape using utilitarianism, I said that you cannot defend rape of German women on a utilitarian level because for one, the act is one of revenge and requires the person to be completely at the mercy of the other person.

This does make it different than the one in Jerusalem, because the gunner attacked while being oppressed and is still oppressed, but the intent and end are very similar in the end.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I wasn't saying that you were doing it, I was just making a general comment.

[Ravn]

In World War II, a bunch of German civilians are killed by food shortages, air raids, and artillery strikes. You can make a case by saying that those are horrible and unfortunate, but sometimes you have to get your hands dirty if you want to defeat fascism. But then you get the mass rapes of Polish, Hungarian, and German women. The Russians suffered a lot, but let's be real, was that really necessary? In the first situation, you can defend the deaths of German civilians deontologically by saying that the intent was to remove a evil, namely fascism and on a utilitarian level by saying that fascism was destroyed in the end through this act of war. But in the second situation, you cannot deontologically defend rape and on a utilitarian level, rape did not help end the war, it was a result of the Germans losing that allowed the rapes to happen.

Likewise, participating in an Intifada is going to get anyone's hands dirty, but at least the intent is good which is resisting Israeli occupation against an unjust power that must be pacified or routed and if it succeeds, then you have moral ground on a utilitarian level.
Going into a mosque and shooting people is just impossible to defend in terms of intent and result. These civilians are engaging in a non-political act which is going to a mosque and in the end, this action is seen as barbaric and strengthens the Zionist demagogues.
If you want to talk about just acts of killing civillians, then there is the Minsitry of Tourism, Rehavam Zeevi whose career was pretty much built off of oppressing Palestinians.

I would appreciate it if people stop using the "And you are lynching Negroes" counter-argument whenever an anti-imperialist group does something horrible.


Rape is a red herring here because I'm not justifying rape. We're talking about civilians getting killed by armed forces on purpose. If that's justifiable to defeat fascism then why isn't it justifiable in defeating Zionism?

[DOOM]

Rape is a red herring here because I'm not justifying rape. We're talking about civilians getting killed by armed forces on purpose. If that's justifiable to defeat fascism then why isn't it justifiable in defeating Zionism?

Because Fascism is in no way comparable to what you call Zionism.
Simple as that.

[Atsumari]

Rape is a red herring here because I'm not justifying rape. We're talking about civilians getting killed by armed forces on purpose. If that's justifiable to defeat fascism then why isn't it justifiable in defeating Zionism?
Let's be reasonable, what purpose does intentionally killing civilians serve to the anti-Zionist cause or any cause in human history, both good and bad?

[Ravn]

Let's be reasonable, what purpose does intentionally killing civilians serve to the anti-Zionist cause or any cause in human history, both good and bad?

It evidently serves the Zionist cause. The IDF intentionally kills Palestinian civilians. "Hamas is more than just a militant organization; it is the political party that was democratically elected in 2006 to govern the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Hamas’ control means that almost everyone and everything in Gaza can be considered a Hamas affiliate. This unchallenged, loose definition has enabled Israel’s war architects to widen the definition of legitimate targets to include civilians and civilian infrastructure, including mosques, schools, hospitals, banks, electricity lines and residential homes, all of which have been targeted", (Rania Khalek, from article on The Electronic Intifada).

[Ravn]

Because Fascism is in no way comparable to what you call Zionism.
Simple as that.

What I call Zionism involves ethnic cleansing & the racism that goes along with that. If one supports the attack of civilians in defeating one form of such elsewhere, why is it completely unthinkable to do so in this case? I think you're glibly avoiding the point here.

[DOOM]

What I call Zionism involves ethnic cleansing & the racism that goes along with that. If one supports the attack of civilians in defeating one form of such elsewhere, why is it completely unthinkable to do so in this case? I think you're glibly avoiding the point here.

What you call Zionism is called bigotry. Zionism has fullfilled its ideological purpose in 48, there is no "Zionism" anymore, at least in the traditional sense of this word. Just Israeli nationalism.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

What you call Zionism is called bigotry. Zionism has fullfilled its ideological purpose in 48, there is no "Zionism" anymore, at least in the traditional sense of this word. Just Israeli nationalism.

Nope - I'm pretty sure settler-colonialism is not reducable to "bigotry". In fact, one could argue that at least a significant minority of Zionist Israeli settlers aren't bigots - that is, they don't necessarily hold subjective anti-Palestinian prejudice. the thing is, it doesn't fucking matter, because bigotry isn't the problem. Living in stolen homes on stolen land and reaping the benefits of barbarous occupation and massive systemic and even explicitly systematic violence is the problem.
Even if every Israeli were an real I-love-my-Arab-neighbour liberal, Israel would remain an occupying colonial force in which all Israelis not actively engaged in resistance are complicit.

[TrotskyMyHero]

PFLP is a far-left nationalist group
Lol, So you can be far-left and nationalist ? Wtf

[khad]

I'm surprised that anyone ever cares about the PFLP, let alone any faction in those parts

[White_Sun]

I'm surprised that anyone ever cares about the PFLP, let alone any faction in those parts

As am I, although I'm not in the least bit surprised that some here would support these actions. Even if you are a die hard militantly violent revolutionary... what are they supporting? By that same logic then the Nigerian government, which is a corrupt and shameful institution to a ludicrous extent (as many governments in Africa are unfortunately) the actions of Boko Haram are not only justified but should be supported?

Out of curiosity how many supporting these violent acts have actually witnessed killings or understand what loss of life really is?