People who switch from left to right and vice versa?

[Zanters]

What are some cases of extreme leftist or rightist switching sides? First I can think of is Mussolini. What caused them to switch? Why did they switch? Are you a person who switched?

[Tim Cornelis]

Quite a lot.

Robert Michels anarchist > fascist.
This wasn't all too uncommon neither. Anarchism, revolutionary syndicalism, national syndicalism, fascist corporatism. It has a common opposition to capitalist modernity in a sense. Perhaps it has a petty bourgeois character in common as well, in that it looks backward in its anticapitalism, rather than forward.

Anyway. Who can tell? It's highly personal and psychological.

[Zanters]

I find it interesting of the switch, how someone can switch to polar opposites.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Doriot, Deat and DeMan started as reformist socialists and ended up as fascists, though the length of their political trajectory is, I think, easy to exaggerate.

Bombacci was a Leninist before becoming a fascist.

Malaparte was a fascist before becoming a sort of a Maoist.

Pankhurst went from a Left Communist to a fan of the king of kings of Ethiopia.

[Creative Destruction]

a lot of the US neocons used to be trots.

[Chomskyan]

a lot of the US neocons used to be trots.One notable case is David Horowitz, who was a Stalinist who became a Fascist.

Also, some of the "Libertarian" thinkers used to be antiwar Leftists.

[The Feral Underclass]

There was that Baader-Meinhoff guy who became a Maoist and then became a member of the NDP.

Horst Mahler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Mahler)

[John Nada]

On this list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reorganized_National_Government_of_China#Notable_p eople) of Chinese fascist collaborators, many were once leftist. Wang Jingwei was left-Kuomintang, Zhou Fohai and Chen Gongbo were founding members of the Chinese Communist Party, and Jiang Kanghu was an anarchist who founded the Chinese Socialist party and attended the 2nd International Congress.

Boris Yeltsin was a high ranking member of the Soviet Communist Party. Admittedly the standards aren't high in that case, but he did go from at least nominally being a communist to a nationalist neoliberal.

Going from right to left, August Bebel went from being a monarchist, to a liberal who opposed socialism, to a dedicated Marxist till he died.

It's kind of depressing that so many go from left to right, yet not many go in the opposite direction. Were any of them really leftist in the first place? Why does it seem like that's more common than rightist seeing the light?

[Zanters]

The right uses imagery and emotional uses to gain a crowd. It is based on reactions. Humans are emotional creatures, and the right plays emotion as much more. They accept things like hate, and desire it at times, unlike liberals. They point the finger, and that is easier than anaylsing situations. It is much easier to react rather than think first.

[Blake's Baby]

Because they're winning. Ergo, they are more persuasive. Ruling ideas in any epoch and all that.

[Atsumari]

Japan a bit interesting. Contrary to popular belief, militarist Japan was not exactly authoritarian nor was it strictly far-right. Hence, there were so many cases of Japanese leftists who did not change their beliefs, but simply supported the Emperor and militarism as an alternative to capitalism in response to the economic disasters of the earthquake, the boycott from China, and the depression. The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere was originally a left-wing idea to give the most prominent example.

[The Undecided]

I find it ironic that Adolf Hitler had a Hasidic Jewish background, but became a Nation Socialist, racist, anti-Semitic, Aryan supremacist later in life.

Personally, I used to believe in far-right, ultra-conservative, Orthodox Christian conspiracy theories. Then I realized I was a complete idiot for believing in Satanic, gay, communist cults controlling the world. I became a liberal, now I'm becoming more and more of a socialist.
Far-right to left, to mid-far-left.

[Tim Cornelis]

David Horowitz is not a fascist. Stop abusing the term.

[Chomskyan]

David Horowitz is not a fascist. Stop abusing the term.

You wouldn't say so? He blacklists left-leaning people, scaremongers about the "communist" Democratic Party and he has websites that smear Left wing groups, and activists.

Would you consider Joseph McCarthy a Fascist?

[Atsumari]

You are abusing the word "fascist" the same way Horowitz abuses the word "communist"
Horowitz is a conservative jackass whose assholery is larger than most conservatives.

[Tim Cornelis]

You wouldn't say so? He blacklists left-leaning people, scaremongers about the "communist" Democratic Party and he has websites that smear Left wing groups, and activists.

Would you consider Joseph McCarthy a Fascist?

No of course Joseph McCarthy wasn't a fascist. We've had this discussion before. You use fascism to mean basically any (rightist) (sort of) authoritarian-leaning tendency. That's simply not what fascism means. I'm tempted to quote entire bookworks, but I'll leave it at this:

"Nevertheless, perhaps no political terms are used so randomly and with such little precision as ‘fascist’ and ‘fascism’. They are usually used pejoratively and are sometimes just all-purpose terms of political abuse. ‘Fascist’ and ‘dictator’, for example, are commonly used as if they are interchangeable, to refer to anyone who possesses or expresses intolerant or illiberal views. However, fascism should not be equated with mere repression. Fascist thinkers have been inspired by a specific range of theories and values, and the fascist regimes that emerged in the 1920s and 1930s developed historically new forms of political rule."

(Andrew Heywood, Political Ideologies).

[John Nada]

Japan a bit interesting. Contrary to popular belief, militarist Japan was not exactly authoritarian nor was it strictly far-right. Hence, there were so many cases of Japanese leftists who did not change their beliefs, but simply supported the Emperor and militarism as an alternative to capitalism in response to the economic disasters of the earthquake, the boycott from China, and the depression. The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere was originally a left-wing idea to give the most prominent example.Bernsteinism with Japanese characteristics?

I think the Chinese, Koreans, and communist would've disagreed about Japan not being authoritarian. I don't see how anyone supporting an imperialist, anti-communist, racial-supremacist, Nazi-allied monarchy, or a race-based empire, could still be a leftist. Even if Imperial Japan wasn't fascist, it would've still been third-positionist.

[Atsumari]

Bernsteinism with Japanese characteristics?

I think the Chinese, Koreans, and communist would've disagreed about Japan not being authoritarian. I don't see how anyone supporting an imperialist, anti-communist, racial-supremacist, Nazi-allied monarchy, or a race-based empire, could still be a leftist. Even if Imperial Japan wasn't fascist, it would've still been third-positionist.
Well I honestly do not know what to call it because whenever I enter Japanese or any Asian nation's politics, the European political spectrum becomes irrelevant all of a sudden.
The actions of Japan did indeed represent racial supremacy, but if you look at the propaganda of the Co-Prosperity Sphere, it promotes racial harmony and unity against Western imperialism and many people fell for that bullshit.
In fact, there are Japanese nationalists today who seem to do everything they can to say that Japan was not racist similar to the guy on /pol/ who try to claim that Germany was not racist. They call the Rape of Nanking a made up story and state that they were allying themselves with local allies in their fight against Soviet communism and Western imperialism.

[Illegalitarian]

The word fascist is kind of like postmodernism, or Jazz music, or existentialism. No one truly understands it and if anyone says they do, they're lying.


Bookchin abandoned his anarchism later in life after his brutal confrontations with Bob Black in favor localist, highly regulated environmentalist communal democracy, or something like that.

Moosealeeeny was whatever he needed to be to stay politically relevant.

I think Castro has gotten more soft in his old age as well

[Creative Destruction]

You wouldn't say so? He blacklists left-leaning people, scaremongers about the "communist" Democratic Party and he has websites that smear Left wing groups, and activists.

That doesn't make someone a fascist.


Would you consider Joseph McCarthy a Fascist?

No.

[Creative Destruction]

Bookchin abandoned his anarchism later in life after his brutal confrontations with Bob Black in favor localist, highly regulated environmentalist communal democracy, or something like that.

Social ecology is still anarchist at its core. Bookchin never abandoned anarchism. He just tried distinguishing it from the anarcho-syndicalism and the lifestyle anarchism that were popular when he was writing.


I think Castro has gotten more soft in his old age as well

Castro was never really much of a Marxist himself to begin with. I think that was Che's influence on him, and after Che died, Castro kind of meandered around non-alignment politics and anti-imperialism, rather than Marxism or communism.

[Illegalitarian]

Social ecology is still anarchist at its core. Bookchin never abandoned anarchism. He just tried distinguishing it from the anarcho-syndicalism and the lifestyle anarchism that were popular when he was writing.

He was sharply critical of anarchist Catalonia. Not that being so makes one anti-anarchist, but what he was critical of were some key anarchist/communist concepts, from what I remember.

I think Social Ecology or "communalism" or whatever he called it was inherently anarchistic/communist, but he certainly was critical of both ideologies.


Castro was never really much of a Marxist himself to begin with. I think that was Che's influence on him, and after Che died, Castro kind of meandered around non-alignment politics and anti-imperialism, rather than Marxism or communism.

I agree, but the Castro of the day who gave fiery, socialist speeches, who was at least presenting himself as a Marxist, is certainly no more.

[Creative Destruction]

He was sharply critical of anarchist Catalonia. Not that being so makes one anti-anarchist, but what he was critical of were some key anarchist/communist concepts, from what I remember.

like i said...


He just tried distinguishing it from the anarcho-syndicalism and the lifestyle anarchism that were popular when he was writing.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Japan a bit interesting. Contrary to popular belief, militarist Japan was not exactly authoritarian nor was it strictly far-right. Hence, there were so many cases of Japanese leftists who did not change their beliefs, but simply supported the Emperor and militarism as an alternative to capitalism in response to the economic disasters of the earthquake, the boycott from China, and the depression. The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere was originally a left-wing idea to give the most prominent example.

Um, yes, those socialists like Kita who started supporting Japanese militarism did change their beliefs, quite radically so. Nothing unusual about that - Kita was simply the Japanese Mussolini who had the rare pleasure of being executed by the state he supported.

Not to mention that anyone who saw "the Emperor and militarism" as an alternative to capitalism obviously hadn't learned anything about capitalism in the first place.

[The Undecided]

I used to read and believe sites like Jesus-Is-Savior, Crossroad (I can't post links. If you want to read these idiotic sites, Google them) and other Christian conservative conspiracy sites.

Anti-leftism, anti-atheism, and scaremongering ≠ Fascism.
Christian fundamentalism and ultra-conservatism ≠ Fascism.
Very close, but not Fascist.

[Wht.Rex]

There is politician in our political organization - which we are left policy supporters, who recently switched from socialist to conservative nationalist. Funny thing is, he is trying to find excuses for him redefining political terms. For example, he is trying to prove that USA is leftist country.

[Zanters]

Please remember that this is an international forum. "We" does not mean americans here.