Do you separate the artist from the art?

[Zanters]

Do you? An example is this.

I love the band burzum, one of my favorites. Varg makes some kick ass music. But I'd love to kick vargs ass. If you don't know him, look him up, you'll find plenty of articles. Basically he is a fascist (odalist). The question is, would buying his CDs be wrong as they are supporting him, which supports his ideology?

No just pirating crap (even though that's what I do). I know we all pirate shit because this is revleft, is it not?

[Creative Destruction]

Varg's music is awful. Never mind the shitty politics.

[motion denied]

Yes.

Gotta love nationalist-borderline-fascist musical groups.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'd guess that the large majority of art that I enjoy is not created by people who share my politics.

Or do you just mean extreme reactionaries?

[Zanters]

Anyone. Black metal culture is very different too. The whole point is to be anti everything. They sing about worshiping Satan for fuck's sakes. But this isn't about defending my shitty taste in music.

Also, in contradiction to my above statement, vargs music is pretty apolitical.

[Zanters]

Also, consider Hugo Boss clothing. He was the designer of the third Reich's uniforms. Does purchasing their suits support the Nazis cause? (Assuming he was alive to receive the revenue).

[Creative Destruction]

Also, in contradiction to my above statement, vargs music is pretty apolitical.

Considering how much Odalist mythology and symbolism he uses in his music, and how much he's steeped in it personally, I wouldn't consider it apolitical. He's trying to push a mythology and certain point of view. There are some things you can separate from the art and the artist, but there are some things you can't. It doesn't have to be one or the other (which is a form of thinking I find to plague these debates about art.)

Neurosis uses some Norse symbolism in their music from time-to-time, but they really haven't ever expressed any political viewpoints. Since that's the case, I'd find their usage of that symbolism to be aesthetic when it comes to the music, rather than them trying to push a view point... which they actively don't do.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

It's often not easy, but I do make a point to try and enjoy a work on its own merits, and not let the creator effect it.

Some of my favorite writers of all time held some genuinely vile opinions.

Good example: D.H. Lawrence

Lawrence is of course famous for his books like Lady Chatterly's Lover and Women in Love. He was a fantastic author, and a pretty talented painter as well.

But Lawrence's politics were rather nakedly far-right in their views. He once famously said that, if he had his way:


"I would build a lethal chamber as big as the Crystal Palace, with a military band playing softly, and a Cinematograph working brightly; then I'd go out in the back streets and main streets and bring them in, all the sick, the halt, and the maimed; I would lead them gently, and they would smile me a weary thanks; and the band would softly bubble out the "Hallelujah Chorus"

Yes, we was clearly advocating mass murder of the Disabled. That doesn't take away his talents as a writer, however.

Same goes for Yukio Mishima, or Maurice G. Dantec. Both notoriously reactionary in their politics, both still incredibly talented authors.

[The Intransigent Faction]

It's often not easy, but I do make a point to try and enjoy a work on its own merits, and not let the creator effect it.

Some of my favorite writers of all time held some genuinely vile opinions.

Good example: D.H. Lawrence

Lawrence is of course famous for his books like Lady Chatterly's Lover and Women in Love. He was a fantastic author, and a pretty talented painter as well.

But Lawrence's politics were rather nakedly far-right in their views. He once famously said that, if he had his way:



Yes, we was clearly advocating mass murder of the Disabled. That doesn't take away his talents as a writer, however.

Same goes for Yukio Mishima, or Maurice G. Dantec. Both notoriously reactionary in their politics, both still incredibly talented authors.

I'd say the same for Dostoevsky!

Whether I can enjoy reactionary artists' art also depends on whether the reactionary views of the artists are or are not incidental. Lastly, I don't necessarily oppose consumer boycotts, but they don't really deal with the root of the problem, either.

[Zanters]

Considering how much Odalist mythology and symbolism he uses in his music, and how much he's steeped in it personally, I wouldn't consider it apolitical. He's trying to push a mythology and certain point of view. There are some things you can separate from the art and the artist, but there are some things you can't. It doesn't have to be one or the other (which is a form of thinking I find to plague these debates about art.)

Neurosis uses some Norse symbolism in their music from time-to-time, but they really haven't ever expressed any political viewpoints. Since that's the case, I'd find their usage of that symbolism to be aesthetic when it comes to the music, rather than them trying to push a view point... which they actively don't do.
Oh yes, it is very Odinistic. It praises and speaks of the Norse gods, but that doesn't mean it is political.

Can you give me an example of some of his political songs? He has odinist songs, but I haven't seen any odalist ones.

[Creative Destruction]

Oh yes, it is very Odinistic. It praises and speaks of the Norse gods, but that doesn't mean it is political.

Can you give me an example of some of his political songs? He has odinist songs, but I haven't seen any odalist ones.

When it comes to odalists, you can't separate the two. That's my point.

[Zanters]

It isn't odalist though. It is odinist... He has only recently been an odalist. Most of his previous music was when he was not an odalist. I mean, I can ask him, me and him chat here and there. Like I said, I am apart of some private groups and he is very active in them:rolleyes: You can also attack... Er I mean get ahold of him on his blog. He claims a lot of his music is apolitical.

[Creative Destruction]

It isn't odalist though. It is odinist... He has only recently been an odalist. Most of his previous music was when he was not an odalist. I mean, I can ask him, me and him chat here and there. Like I said, I am apart of some private groups and he is very active in them:rolleyes:

He's always expressed a point of view that leans in that direction. The acrimony toward Christianity that motivated him to burn down the stave churches, for example, is an acrimony shared with that group of people. That itself was a political act that can't be divorced from the overall symbolism and ideology he clings to, the same symbolism that his music has always been steeped in. Again, you can't separate the symbolism he uses from his political views. They are one in the same. You don't even need to "ask" him. Just look at his actions and his art.

I get the feeling that you're really trying to reconcile the fact that you're a fan of a musician who makes shitty music and has shitty politics. Instead of being comfortable with that, you're getting defensive about it.

[Zanters]

Oh, I can't defend the bastard. I like his shitty music, it is true. The imagery just isn't political to me. A lot of people worship the asatru, and many are very anti nationalist and universalist.

I really don't like defending the man, but his music just isn't political. Just because a song speaks of red doesn't mean it is communist. Just because he speaks of odin, does not mean it is nationalist.

[Creative Destruction]

Oh, I can't defend the bastard. I like his shitty music, it is true. The imagery just isn't political to me. A lot of people worship the asatru, and many are very anti nationalist and universalist.

Which I recognized in my post above:


Neurosis uses some Norse symbolism in their music from time-to-time, but they really haven't ever expressed any political viewpoints. Since that's the case, I'd find their usage of that symbolism to be aesthetic when it comes to the music, rather than them trying to push a view point... which they actively don't do.

The difference is that Neurosis doesn't espouse a point of view that is tied back into that imagery. Varg does. He's not simply putting that stuff in there for aesthetic appeal. It's something that is very much connected back to his politics. If he just professed a peripheral interest in the subject but did nothing to actually promote that belief, then his claims that his music isn't political would be believable.


Just because a song speaks of red doesn't mean it is communist.

This is a ridiculous comparison. If a communist is talking about "red" in the context of workers struggles, then it is clear what "red" means there. If that artist is a communist, of course it's a personal political song. Varg is writing songs about Norse mythology in the context of his real life espousal of a related political ideology. You're not looking at the context in which that art was created.

Are Joy Division a big bunch of Nazis because they named their band Joy Division and sang about the Joy Division? No, of course not. They wrote dark music for the sake of writing dark music. Does Tom Araya singing "God Hates Us All" mean he believes "God Hates Us All"? No, in his words "it's just a cool fucking title." That's the context for which that song exists.

This is what I'm talking about. You're not applying any bit of analysis to it. You're trying to mark it as a black/white problem that can be solved with a neat dichotomy. It can't be. You have to take the art within it's context, and part of taking it into context is considering the views of its creator and how it might relate back to that art.

[Zanters]

Ah, I see now. It would be different if he wasn't an odalist singing about odinist things. And what about the band skillet? I like their songs, they aren't christian songs unless you knew they were a christian band before hand.

[Creative Destruction]

Ah, I see now. It would be different if he wasn't an odalist singing about odinist things. And what about the band skillet? I like their songs, they aren't christian songs unless you knew they were a christian band before hand.

i don't know who skillet is. but there seems to be an issue with people automatically labeling a band a "christian band" simply because their members are christian, which is dumb. "christian music" is a very specific genre, where it makes christian belief central to their music.

eta. i just listened to skillet. this is horrible. what the fuck, dude?

[Zanters]

I... I like all music.

I like black metal, christian metal, Muslim songs (sami Yusuf), classical, heavy metal, rap, hip hop, pop.... I am not picky at all.

[Creative Destruction]

I... I like all music.

I like black metal, christian metal, Muslim songs (sami Yusuf), classical, heavy metal, rap, hip hop, pop.... I am not picky at all.

i do, too, but holy shit.

[Zanters]

Hey man, I like a little Nazi flair to my Islamic metal.:grin:

[Creative Destruction]

no, that's fine. but, skillet. i mean, they sound exactly like flyleaf or whatever other "alternative" metal band that came out in the 2000s.

[consuming negativity]

V92OBNsQgxU

nobody doesn't enjoy ride of the valkyries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#Wagner.27s_music_in_Israel



Wagner's operas have never been staged in the modern State of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Israel), and the few public instrumental performances that have occurred have provoked much controversy.


Despite Wagner's known writings against Jews, there was no opposition to his music in the early Zionist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism) movement and its founders; Theodor Herzl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl), the founder of Zionism, was an avid admirer of Wagner's music.[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#cite_note-37) The Palestine Orchestra, founded in 1936 by Bronisław Huberman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronis%C5%82aw_Huberman) in what is now the state of Israel (and which became the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Philharmonic_Orchestra)), 'during its first two years [...] programme[d] several works by Richard Wagner who was recognised as one of the great Western composers despite the well-known fact that he had been a fanatical anti-Semite'. However the orchestra banished his works from its repertoire after Kristallnacht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht) in 1938 (to be followed shortly after by the exclusion of works of Richard Strauss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Strauss)).[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#cite_note-38)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#cite_note-38)
Although Wagner's works are broadcast on Israeli government-owned radio and television stations, attempts to stage public performances in Israel have raised protests, including protests from Holocaust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) survivors. In 1981 Zubin Mehta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zubin_Mehta), as an encore at an orchestral concert on Tel-Aviv, played extracts from Tristan und Isolde, after offering those who wished (including two members of the orchestra who had asked to be excused) the opportunity to leave. Despite a few vocal protests, most of the audience stayed to the end of the piece.[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#cite_note-39)[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#cite_note-40) In 1992, Daniel Barenboim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Barenboim) programmed works by Wagner at a concert of the Israel Philharmonic, but this was cancelled after protests, although a rehearsal was opened to the public.[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#cite_note-41) The first documented public Israeli Wagner concerts were in 2000, when the holocaust survivor Mendi Rodan conducted the Siegfried Idyll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_Idyll) in Rishon LeZion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishon_LeZion), and in August 2001 when a concert conducted by Daniel Barenboim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Barenboim#Conducting_Wagner_in_Israel) in Tel Aviv (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Aviv) included as an encore an extract from Tristan und Isolde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_und_Isolde), which divided the audience between applause and protest.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#cite_note-42) A concert with works by Wagner was announced for 18 June 2012 in Tel Aviv;[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#cite_note-43) however these plans were abandoned after protests.[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#cite_note-44)

[Quail]

It's often not easy, but I do make a point to try and enjoy a work on its own merits, and not let the creator effect it.

Some of my favorite writers of all time held some genuinely vile opinions.

Good example: D.H. Lawrence

Lawrence is of course famous for his books like Lady Chatterly's Lover and Women in Love. He was a fantastic author, and a pretty talented painter as well.

But Lawrence's politics were rather nakedly far-right in their views. He once famously said that, if he had his way:



Yes, we was clearly advocating mass murder of the Disabled. That doesn't take away his talents as a writer, however.

Same goes for Yukio Mishima, or Maurice G. Dantec. Both notoriously reactionary in their politics, both still incredibly talented authors.

I like D. H. Lawrence's writing but it bothers me somewhat that his politics were so awful. Still have a few of his books on my shelf though.

I think when it comes to separating the artist from the art, it really depends on the art itself. I really like the lyrics in music, for example, so I wouldn't be able to appreciate an openly fascist, misogynist, etc. song because the lyrics would not only make my stomach turn, but would either be actively or passively be supporting and encouraging fascism, misogyny, etc. I wouldn't want to support a band whose music was basically fascist propaganda, nor would I want to go to their shows because chances are I wouldn't actually be safe there.

[motion denied]

Anyone know what's Taylor Swift's account on Sino-Albanian split?

Thats important.