Where does the working class have the most power?

[Sabot Cat]

In what nation in the world does the proletariat have the greatest proportion of expressed power, and why? By this I mean, in what countries is it most true that the working class is an active political force to be reckoned with? Are there ways to emulate the strategies and tactics they've employed?

[tuwix]

I thin it's case of Venezuela, but there isn't working class rule and it must be clear. But proletariat is regarded there, Nonetheless, they are the force of manipulation of oligarchy ruling there.

And the tactics are not the case there. The position that they gained there wasn't got by spectacular class struggle but it was given by former president Hugo Chavez. People just have chosen him in elections because neoliberalism has done so much damage to the country that bourgeois propaganda ceased to have impact on society.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

By this I mean, in what countries is it most true that the working class an active political force to be reckoned with?

I was going to say "uhm EVERYWHERE that's the point" until I read that part.

Unfortunately, working class power seemed to bottom out in the 90s, and it hasn't gotten much better since. One might say there was too much invested in the fate of a doomed Stalinist enterprise, which may be true, although its hardly the only factor.

[Sabot Cat]

I thin it's case of Venezuela, but there isn't working class rule and it must be clear. But proletariat is regarded there, Nonetheless, they are the force of manipulation of oligarchy ruling there. And the tactics are not the case there. The position that they gained there wasn't got by spectacular class struggle but it was given by former president Hugo Chavez. People just have chosen him in elections because neoliberalism has done so much damage to the country that bourgeois propaganda ceased to have impact on society.

I don't know if I'd really consider that a powerful working class, especially when many workers' groups are having their leaders murdered [57 in 2013 alone], and labor unions need the government's approval to thrive. Nonetheless, my read of the situation might be off, and my opinion is amenable to correction.


I was going to say "uhm EVERYWHERE that's the point" until I read that part.

Unfortunately, working class power seemed to bottom out in the 90s, and it hasn't gotten much better since. One might say there was too much invested in the fate of a doomed Stalinist enterprise, which may be true, although its hardly the only factor.

But where would you say they have the most power in the post-Soviet world?

I can't formulate an answer myself, but I think it'd be a fruitful line of inquiry.

[Blake's Baby]

How would you measure it?

I can only assume that the metric would be 'where would a strike or other action by workers be most likely to force a government to change policy'. So... France, maybe? They forced the government to scrap its reform of the laws for younger workers in about 2006.

[Illegalitarian]

The Gambia

[Devrim]

I can only assume that the metric would be 'where would a strike or other action by workers be most likely to force a government to change policy'. So... France, maybe? They forced the government to scrap its reform of the laws for younger workers in about 2006.

That's a pretty Eurocentric viewpoint. What about Egypt where workers' strikes forced the bourgeoisie to remove the leader of the state even more recently?

I don't think that it is a very useful question, nor do I think power is the right word in the current situation. The working class internationally is weak. There are some countries where it is weaker and stronger than others. In this region, I'd say that it is weaker in Iraq, Syria, and Israel/Palestine whereas it is stronger in Iran, Egypt, and Turkey.

In the West, Id say that it is particularly weak in America.

Devrim

[Blake's Baby]

Yeah, I'm not convinced that the question is very clear. I think the idea of trying to work out where the working class is stronger or weaker is useful though.

I did consider Egypt and Tunisia, where the as you say the bourgeoisie was forced to remove its heads of state. I'm not sure if in either place the working class would be able to repeat the process. I also thought about Bangladesh and China where there have been massive strike waves as you know in recent years. But if one can consider those to be areas of working class strength, then I'd say that they're also areas where the state has been able to contain that strength. There are at least three metrics to be considered in analysis like that; 1-what is the measure of the current strength of the working class? 2-what is the measure of the weakness of the bourgeoisie? 3-what is the measure of the long-term resilience of the working class?

In the case of Tunisia for example, was the ruling class forced to accept the ousting of Ben Ali because the working class was strong, or was it mostly that the state was weak? Even if the working class was strong in 2011, is it strong now? It doesn't seem to be.

In Egypt, I think the working class might be in a weaker position than it was 4 years ago. Only an impression of course, perhaps because I don't have good information. But I don't know of any great industrial unrest at the moment. It looks like (and I repeat, looks like) the working class is in retreat. So again taking into account the long-term picture, is the working class in Egypt stronger than (for example) in France? I don't know. But the French working class has a long tradition of being pretty disruptive. Long-term, I think, it's perhaps more resilient than the working class in Egypt.

[Sabot Cat]

Mm, Blake's Baby, I agree that my question is vague but you're doing an excellent job of making it more specific in the ways that I was after.

I also agree that it's perhaps more helpful to look at repeated actions of the working class, wherein they have stable power.

One nation to consider along these lines is Spain, wherein millions of workers conduct general strikes every so often, but I don't know how effective these are when compared to France or Egypt.

[bricolage]

I would add South Africa to the list of countries where the working class is (relatively) stronger.

[Blake's Baby]

I was thinking of Spain, Italy and Greece andd contrasting southern Europe with northern (being Eurocentric again) when replying to Devrim. There are dozens of strikes seemingly every month in Greece but nothing happens. Seems to me that's a sign of weakness of the working class. Spain perhaps is in a similar boat, though in maybe 2011 I'd say the working class in Spain was showing some very healthy signs of developing its struggles, especially through the assembly movement connected to the indignados. But lately the prospect of Catalan indepenence has I think been deliberately used to divide and weaken the working class. In Italy, the working class seems very weak at the moment, even without the sort of nationalism visible in Spain/Catalunya.

In northern Europe, I think in the UK and Germany the working clas also seems particularly weak. The German union movement is completely integrated into the state and management structure and there seems to be very little independent working class action at all. In the UK the existing structures have been able to contain the limited amount of anger that's been expressed over the last couple of years, though again in 2010-11 there were more hopeful signs in the UK. Somewhat anecdotaly, in the last few weeks both fire-crews and hospital workers have been on strike 'to save pensions' and yet, despite the fact that in my city the fire-station is only a few hundred metres from one of the main hospitals there doesn't seem to have been any link-up of the campaigns. Again, union divisions are keeping workers imprisoned in their sectional boxes. It doesn't mean if eveyone got together we would be able to force the state to back down but there is no realistic way of one sector on its own forcing the government to back down.

So, what about Belgium, hey?

[MarxSchmarx]

The Gambia
Why? I know quite a few people from there and not one would agree with your assessment. Unless you're serious and can back this up I'm trashing this post.