Vegan Activism

[Comrade Marcel]

Recently in our organization, the debate of including "Animal rights" came about.

Myself, and some other Comrades, took the postion that it's petty-bourgeois sensitivity and individualist lifestyle politics, irrelevant in the struggle to free the proletariat.

I found concise article from MIM that sums up the position I think most Marxist would agree apon this issue.

I would love to hear some opinions on this, from all points of view

Article: Veganism and "animal rights" (http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/wim/cong/vegan.html) by MIM

[Eastside Revolt]

Has MIM ever covered "graffiti", "if the communist movement succeeds"?

[Solace]

*points at Senora Che*

I think she knows.

I don't mind eating an animal. What bothers me more is the conditions the said animal lived in and its "process" from its birth to my plate. I oppose the use of aniumals to test such idocies like make-up, but I think eating meat is part of who we are, part of the big "circle".

I would not call it "petty-bourgeois sensitivity", tough. It might be irelevant in the revolution itself, but the issue will surely emerge after.

I found the Benefits to the vegan movement if the communist movement succeeds quite weak.




1. The first benefit is that there will be no ad campaigns by monopoly capitalist corporations to promote meat-eating. Production will not be for profit. "Beef: It's what for dinner" billboards will be abolished.

2. The state will fund education on why vegan diets are scientifically superior for health.

3. The existing vegans will be allowed to persuade others to become vegan, and the vegans will rest assured that no one will be profiting in the millions or billions of dollars from animal slaughter. No persyn under socialism will have a job dependent on butchering. At any time a butcher may switch to another profession, because jobs are guaranteed under socialism. Under these material conditions, vegans can expect to have the greatest success in their history.

4. Distribution efforts will entice the people into vegetarian hamburgers and other synthesized forms of food most nutrititious and tasty for the proletariat not currently promoted under capitalism.

5. Under collective child-rearing, adults will not be allowed to require their children to eat meat.

[left for dead]

Well, veganism/animal rights is lumped into "left-wing" politics because of it's "political correctness", with things such as gay-rights and feminism(don't get me wrong, I fully support the those two movements) and the such. From what I read, I think the MIM is trying hard to cater to these "leftists". One can be pro-gay rights and be capitalists, one can be pro-feminist and be capitalists, but I guess in a society driven by the religious right, those movements are fully thrown into the left-wing gallimaufry. No longer being "on the left" means necessarly that one is a socialist or a communist or anarchist.

Also, groups like PETA piss me off. I heard when they were protesting baby seal clubbers in Canada, they spray-painted live baby seals with bright neon colors in order to ruin their fur, but that made them easy targets for hungry polar bears. I think I'd rather die from a good whack on the head than by the jaws of a polar bear. Not that I advocate for the clubbers, the furs are probably sold at a very expensive price.

[Pete]

I help out at a low income vegan soup kitchen. It is pay what you can so the literally starving students can get something to eat that is both healthy and filling. That, I think, is quite a leftist idea. Promoting physical health for all classes, providing good food not based on the number of loonies in your pocket, but by whether you will walk to get it.

Come now, what is wrong with that?

I am a proud omnivore by the way :P It is all about sustainablitiy.

The MIM is just full of shit.


EDIT: I am an omnivore damnit! I can't think half the time.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 5 2004, 12:37 AM
Recently in our organization, the debate of including "Animal rights" came about.

Myself, and some other Comrades, took the postion that it's petty-bourgeois sensitivity and individualist lifestyle politics, irrelevant in the struggle to free the proletariat.

I found concise article from MIM that sums up the position I think most Marxist would agree apon this issue.

I would love to hear some opinions on this, from all points of view

Article: Veganism and "animal rights" (http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/wim/cong/vegan.html) by MIM
LOL, I'm not a vegetarian nor a vegan, nor I'm in any way involved in the animal rights movement, nevertheless I think it's pretty ridiculous to call it "petty-bourgeois sensitivity and individualist lifestyle politics". Haven't you anything beter in your little sect which you can deal with??? I would suggest you to find any connections bewteen Totzkyism and the animal rights movement, beause Trotzky owned a cat...Oh wait, maybe also the Nazis are involved because Hitler was a vegetarian? :lol:
BTW: As most of MIM publishings, their pamphlet reads like a involuntary satire...

[Regicidal Insomniac]

Our obsession with rapid meat production has everything to do with the struggle of the working class- it legitimizes a social food chain which robs the poor of sustenance to feed the well-off consumer with a steady supply of grain-fed meat; grain which is stolen from farmers and the hungry to feed unneccesary amounts of livestock.

Those being harmed most by industrial farming are humans, specifically those who cannot afford the meat which robs them of grain and other vegetation. The survival of humanity and earth depend upon curbing our consumption of animal products. Perhaps you just think veganism is silly, but I don't see how you can possibly object to that.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by Regicidal [email protected] 5 2004, 12:14 AM
Our obsession with rapid meat production has everything to do with the struggle of the working class- it legitimizes a social food chain which robs the poor of sustenance to feed the well-off consumer with a steady supply of grain-fed meat; grain which is stolen from farmers and the hungry to feed unneccesary amounts of livestock.

Those being harmed most by industrial farming are humans, specifically those who cannot afford the meat which robs them of grain and other vegetation. The survival of humanity and earth depend upon curbing our consumption of animal products. Perhaps you just think veganism is silly, but I don't see how you can possibly object to that.
There would be enough food for everyone to have a balanced, meat containing diet, if we just properly distributed the food.

[Regicidal Insomniac]

Originally posted by MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr+Feb 5 2004, 04:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr @ Feb 5 2004, 04:19 AM)
Regicidal [email protected] 5 2004, 12:14 AM
Our obsession with rapid meat production has everything to do with the struggle of the working class- it legitimizes a social food chain which robs the poor of sustenance to feed the well-off consumer with a steady supply of grain-fed meat; grain which is stolen from farmers and the hungry to feed unneccesary amounts of livestock.

Those being harmed most by industrial farming are humans, specifically those who cannot afford the meat which robs them of grain and other vegetation. The survival of humanity and earth depend upon curbing our consumption of animal products. Perhaps you just think veganism is silly, but I don&#39;t see how you can possibly object to that.
There would be enough food for everyone to have a balanced, meat containing diet, if we just properly distributed the food. [/b]
Proper distribution of the food requires a decreasement in our meat consumption.

[pedro san pedro]

Also, groups like PETA piss me off. I heard when they were protesting baby seal clubbers in Canada, they spray-painted live baby seals with bright neon colors in order to ruin their fur, but that made them easy targets for hungry polar bears. I think I&#39;d rather die from a good whack on the head than by the jaws of a polar bear

i believe this was an early greenpeace campaign, where the cubs had a couple of splotches of black dye put over their fur. i havent heard of any massive increase in the amount of polar bear related deaths -do you have a source for this?
anyhow, greenpeace isnt interested in animal rights, this campaign was taken up as the seal clubbing was very unsustainable.

[antieverything]

Our obsession with rapid meat production has everything to do with the struggle of the working class- it legitimizes a social food chain which robs the poor of sustenance to feed the well-off consumer with a steady supply of grain-fed meat; grain which is stolen from farmers and the hungry to feed unneccesary amounts of livestock.

Those being harmed most by industrial farming are humans, specifically those who cannot afford the meat which robs them of grain and other vegetation. The survival of humanity and earth depend upon curbing our consumption of animal products. Perhaps you just think veganism is silly, but I don&#39;t see how you can possibly object to that.
Well said, that is exactly right. Many food-justice activists don&#39;t have anything against killing animals. They do have qualms with how the animals are treated (when you eat beef, you eat a cow that was suckled blood instead of its mother&#39;s milk) but that isn&#39;t the most important part of it.

The point is that cattle grazing is one of the largest causes of environmental degradation in the world today. The point is that it takes about 16 pounds of grain to produce a single pound of beef.

There is, however, some hypocricy in the food-justice movement...the main thing being that many animal-rights activists don&#39;t care as much about human suffering. Also, many don&#39;t even know that there is enough food in the world to go around even without us cutting back our meat consumption. The problem of starvation is caused by our dietary choices but not as much as it is caused by the system of capitalism&#33; I know many vegans and vegetarians (myself included) who are anti-capitalist. I know more, however, who aren&#39;t.

The solution to hunger is not dietary activism--it is allowing the starving to make enough money to live. There is enough food...this point cannot be stressed enough. The thing is, people can&#39;t afford food thanks to the food market&#33; Still, meat consumption is unethical and contributes to the maintenance of a system of violence. Not buying sweat-shop doesn&#39;t end sweat-shops. Not eating meat won&#39;t end starvation.

Go Veg, cut back on all consumption, get involved, live your life the way you want to live it...and you are halfway there. Work to overthrow capitalism and then you&#39;ve got your life in order.

[commie kg]

I&#39;m not even clicking the link, nobody should suffer the indignity of having to actually read MIM literature.

Have you checked out the "movie reviews" on their site? They go see movies, then decide how they can possibly relate them to Maoist class struggle in any way. They say stuff like "A Bug&#39;s Life was made by Trotskyist capitalist bankers" and "The Matrix is pure patriarchial propaganda"

The only people who take them seriously converted to their misguided movement in prison as far as I know, and they&#39;re just looking for any way that they can say they&#39;re a "political prisoner" :lol:

[antieverything]

I second that&#33; ^

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by commie [email protected] 5 2004, 10:16 PM
I&#39;m not even clicking the link, nobody should suffer the indignity of having to actually read MIM literature.

Have you checked out the "movie reviews" on their site? They go see movies, then decide how they can possibly relate them to Maoist class struggle in any way. They say stuff like "A Bug&#39;s Life was made by Trotskyist capitalist bankers" and "The Matrix is pure patriarchial propaganda"

The only people who take them seriously converted to their misguided movement in prison as far as I know, and they&#39;re just looking for any way that they can say they&#39;re a "political prisoner" :lol:
I doubt that they consisting out of more than 5 members anyway...

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Come on, if we seriously wanted to, we could feed everyone all the meat they could eat. The problem is, is that it isn&#39;t profitable. The only thing that growing 20 times as much food as anyone needs would accomplish is that the price of food would fall through the floor and farmers wouldn&#39;t have the money to continue growing. Meat eating isn&#39;t the problem, capitalism is.

[Regicidal Insomniac]

Come on, if we seriously wanted to, we could feed everyone all the meat they could eat.

Incorrect. We could feed everyone almost one pound of meat, milk, and eggs a day- a healthy amount, but hardly "all they could eat"; don&#39;t kid yourself.



The only thing that growing 20 times as much food as anyone needs would accomplish is that the price of food would fall through the floor and farmers wouldn&#39;t have the money to continue growing.

20 is another fantastic exageration, but that&#39;s basically what we&#39;re producing now. But nearly half of the world&#39;s grain harvest is being fed to animals, not humans (US livestock alone consume 1/3 of the world&#39;s grain and 70% of the grain grown in the US). Way back in 1981 over 75% of the third-world’s grain imports were already en route to factory farms.

You can&#39;t possibly think that the solution is simply giving everyone "all the meat they can eat"... as a socialist you must realize the fatal flaw in this thought- complete and utter unsustainability. Producing that amount of meat, equiatable to what we do today, would, and is, destroying the planet and our hopes for survival.



Meat eating isn&#39;t the problem, capitalism is.

I couldn&#39;t agree more, capitalism is the problem. But massive meat production and the factory farming industry are appendages of capitalism- tools applied to subjugate the disposessed and deny them of sustenance to feed the western world and well-off consumer with a steady flow of grain-fed meat.

We mustn&#39;t support this new, repulsive foodchain; in fact, we should refuse to participate in it.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

What we should do, is make as much food as we can. Give everyone enough to feed themselves, and use what is left for the meat, and distribute the meat evenly.

[iloveatomickitten]

This may be a communist forum but for christs sake not everything is related to capitalism - society is not God. When you express such beliefs you are simply becoming zealots of marxism. <_<

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

I am proud to be a Marxist zealot&#33; :D

[RedAnarchist]

I&#39;d rather be a Marxist zealot than a Capitalist or Fascist one

[Pete]

Please guys no line posts&#33;

MM, your centralized planning would be racked with countless problems, such as logistics, things not going where they are supposed to ect ect. The problem is international insustainablity because of this centralization being used for profit. The answer is local decentralized sustainability with connections to your neighbours and comrades so that you can help them out in a time of needa nd vica versa

[antieverything]

Come on, if we seriously wanted to, we could feed everyone all the meat they could eat. The problem is, is that it isn&#39;t profitable. The only thing that growing 20 times as much food as anyone needs would accomplish is that the price of food would fall through the floor and farmers wouldn&#39;t have the money to continue growing. Meat eating isn&#39;t the problem, capitalism is. Whoah, midnight. Way to take everything I previously said and twist around to be stupidity.

Regicidal, you are my new favorite person in the world.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 12:47 PM
Please guys no line posts&#33;

MM, your centralized planning would be racked with countless problems, such as logistics, things not going where they are supposed to ect ect. The problem is international insustainablity because of this centralization being used for profit. The answer is local decentralized sustainability with connections to your neighbours and comrades so that you can help them out in a time of needa nd vica versa
Eh? Nothing is wrong with food rationing...

[Pete]

Waste, bureaucracy, and corruption.

Explain your self, and NO ONE LINE POSTS&#33;

Consider this a warning.

[Regicidal Insomniac]

Regicidal, you are my new favorite person in the world.

Thank you kindly, comrade. ;)

And Pete, I agree with you about decentralization. The solution here is relocalization, not more globalization.
Globalization and centralization are the problem, because they give priority to exports above local needs and put the resources of the South in the service of luxuries of the North and the profits of the big corporations.

For example, a World Bank study of northeast Brazil estimated that redistributing farmland into smaller holding would raise output by an astonishing 80%.
The solution is returning power to local production, local distribution, and most importantly, local needs.