Why is Feminism so hated?

[JTC]

I know why Feminism is hated on the right, because it rejects the cultural domination of men which is a conservative value. But on the Left there seems to be almost as much hatred and vitriol for Feminism. Why do liberals distance themselves from feminists? Why do far-Leftists distance themselves from Radical or Socialist Feminism?

[motion denied]

Is there a homogeneous Feminism though?

[Blake's Baby]

Because a lot of what passes for feminism is a caricature of what feminism is or needs to be, when it isn't liberal identity politics or biological essentialism. Even people who I have some time for, like Germaine Greer, say stupid things about how 'women think this, men act like that', which in my opinion is horseshit.

I don't call myself a feminist much these days because feminism I think only really has a place in capitalism and it's not my job to make capitalism run 'better'; but the notion that women should structurally have a lower status then men in any society is just stupid. however, it isn't going to change until we abolish our class society.

I heard an interesting paraphrase of Dauve recently - 'we're not divided because we're racist and sexist, we're racist and sexist because we're divided'. That makes some sense to me. Overcoming racism and sexism, without overcoming the economic divisions in society, will result in... nothing changing. It will the transformative process that the working class goes through collectively that will bring different categories of the working class together, not bringing different categories of workers together that will bring about the revolution.

[The Disillusionist]

Alright, I'll say it.

Because radical feminism can often be rather militant and overly-polarizing in its approach against men, and so a lot of men, even leftist men, though they would identify as feminists, have been completely alienated, in much the same way that trans-women have been alienated among many groups of extremist feminists.

As often happens among many other ideological groups, extremists have given feminists a bit of a black eye. They kinda shot themselves in the foot, because it's hard to identify with a group, no matter how good their ideology is, if they reject you for an aspect of yourself (sex) that you were born with.

And of course, taking the opposing feminist view, leftism has still been, historically, a rather male-dominated field of politics (although less so than most others), and so no matter how liberal (in the American sense) we might consider ourselves, we are not exempt from the struggle against the patriarchy. As I'm sure you can see if you read through some of the threads on this website (the recent, godawful thread about German women being raped comes to mind), sexism is still very much alive on the left as well.

[Rosa Partizan]

why should radical feminism be popular with anyone, be it the right or left? In Germany, we had the leftist led generation of 68 that stood for free love and sexuality, freeing oneself from sexual repression, morals etc. From the outside, it sounded nice, leaving behind bourgeois prudery and sexual restrictions. But there was this point when it all twisted . Some guys wanted to get sexual with young boys and girls. There is a quite popular school in Germany, a boarding school, promoting themselves as leftist, with no hierarchical order, like, teachers and pupils, everyone's the same here. Some decades ago, this was the way to gain the pupil's trust ("I'm no authority, I'm like you"), by making them believe there was no higher instance, so that there could be no force in what the teachers told them, that everything was based on equality, not depending on age, social status etc.

This way, many teachers abused hundreds of pupils. It sounds a bit far fetched, but it's not, considering that when the Green Party was founded, they were considered a bunch of hippies. Yeah, at least, many of them had real ideals back then, but they were founded in the wake of a "everything has to be possible"-sentiment, when doing the opposite of what was considered moralist had to be not only possible, but also desired. Belonging to the "establishment" was the worst thing possible and so it comes as no surprise that many of these founding members advocated for sex with children and young teenagers.

You will find this advocacy with the same reasoning behind it ("fuck morals", "freedom", "anything goes" etc) nowadays, too. Maybe less for sex with children (but I've seen it all on revleft, so...), instead it will be stuff like BDSM (http://feministcurrent.com/9614/the-economics-of-consent-why-bdsm-and-consumer-capitalism-are-closer-than-you-think/), porn (not your homemade stuff or that from your swinger club, so don't bore the fuck out of me with that), prostitution, just female objectification, sexualization and submissiveness in any form and shape that HAS to be okay because it's against existing values and bourgeois morals. There will be even liberal vocab mixed in it, like "choice", "agency" etc. From a radical feminist point of view, the erotification (? not sure about word) of female submissiveness, female all time-availability and commodification and objectification of the female body is something that has to be abolished since it's becoming more and more prevalent.

It is not about telling individuals what to do in the bedroom, so everyone shove your "my choice fuck yeah you prudish sex-hater"-vocab up your... but it's about talking about structures, and these structures are something that affect us all. I didn't want to have this conversation for a long time, since I'm very into female submissiveness and I was like "keep politics out of my bedroom", but this is individualist, whiny bullshit. Yes, it is uncomfortable, yes it means leaving your comfort zone, yes it means having to confess that you're not as free and self-determined as you think you are, and this awareness somehow hurts. No, it is not about having to change your preferences, no, it is not about you being stupid or bad or inconsiderate, no it is not about victorian morals or chastity or anything. It is about setting the record straight about how female sexuality is poisoned by patriarchy and how recognizing this has nothing to do with hating men or sex or anything.

Sorry for eventual grammar or vocab mistakes, my brain's all blurry with the flu.

[JTC]

Is there a homogeneous Feminism though?

There is feminism which is divided over how to deal with patriarchal structures, divided into Radical Feminism, Socialist Feminism, and Liberal Feminism. That's as far as I know about it but if someone knows more please edumacate me.

[JTC]

Because a lot of what passes for feminism is a caricature of what feminism is or needs to be

Then my question for you would be, what passes for feminism which you believe is not really feminism and what do you think feminism needs to be?




I don't call myself a feminist much these days because feminism I think only really has a place in capitalism and it's not my job to make capitalism run 'better'; but the notion that women should structurally have a lower status then men in any society is just stupid. however, it isn't going to change until we abolish our class society.


Why does feminism only have a place in capitalist society? Sex defined cultural issues have existed much longer than capitalism has existed, so why should feminism only apply for capitalism?




I heard an interesting paraphrase of Dauve recently - 'we're not divided because we're racist and sexist, we're racist and sexist because we're divided'. That makes some sense to me. Overcoming racism and sexism, without overcoming the economic divisions in society, will result in... nothing changing. It will the transformative process that the working class goes through collectively that will bring different categories of the working class together, not bringing different categories of workers together that will bring about the revolution.

I think one of the problems this kind of thinking creates is this sort of false dichotomy between either 1) We start attempting to change social and cultural issues OR 2) We try to change the political economic system. Why not do both at the same time? Why must we either work for social justice OR work to overthrow the capitalist system?

[JTC]

It is not about telling individuals what to do in the bedroom, so everyone shove your "my choice fuck yeah you prudish sex-hater"-vocab up your... but it's about talking about structures, and these structures are something that affect us all. I didn't want to have this conversation for a long time, since I'm very into female submissiveness and I was like "keep politics out of my bedroom", but this is individualist, whiny bullshit. Yes, it is uncomfortable, yes it means leaving your comfort zone, yes it means having to confess that you're not as free and self-determined as you think you are, and this awareness somehow hurts. No, it is not about having to change your preferences, no, it is not about you being stupid or bad or inconsiderate, no it is not about victorian morals or chastity or anything. It is about setting the record straight about how female sexuality is poisoned by patriarchy and how recognizing this has nothing to do with hating men or sex or anything.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying the reason why so many in society despise feminism is due to the fact that they are uncomfortable with its ideas and/or that they misinterpret it as prudish?

[JTC]

Alright, I'll say it.

Because radical feminism can often be rather militant and overly-polarizing in its approach against men, and so a lot of men, even leftist men, though they would identify as feminists, have been completely alienated, in much the same way that trans-women have been alienated among many groups of extremist feminists.

As often happens among many other ideological groups, extremists have given feminists a bit of a black eye. They kinda shot themselves in the foot, because it's hard to identify with a group, no matter how good their ideology is, if they reject you for an aspect of yourself (sex) that you were born with.

And of course, taking the opposing feminist view, leftism has still been, historically, a rather male-dominated field of politics (although less so than most others), and so no matter how liberal (in the American sense) we might consider ourselves, we are not exempt from the struggle against the patriarchy. As I'm sure you can see if you read through some of the threads on this website (the recent, godawful thread about German women being raped comes to mind), sexism is still very much alive on the left as well.

Well this is the interesting thing to me because I have not seen any examples of feminists advocating hatred of men in any of the feminist literature or even online. I have not seen any evidence that even the most extreme feminists advocate hating men because they are men. Maybe you know of some?

The sexism on the Left thing is what gets me the most though. How is it that Leftists who advocate extreme critiques of established power structures and hierarchy can be so complicit in upholding cultural hierarchies? What is going on here?

[Rosa Partizan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying the reason why so many in society despise feminism is due to the fact that they are uncomfortable with its ideas and/or that they misinterpret it as prudish?

is this any surprise to you? If I got a Euro for each time I was called sex-hating or prudish (on a side note: I still chuckle about a guy saying this before we got it on, and afterwards he was like: holy shit, wow! :laugh:), I'd be living in a victorian villa in Canada right now. Feminism is uncomfortable because it means challenging almost every aspect of your life, especially when you consider intersectional factors like race, non-binary gender identities, social background, body ability etc.

[JTC]

Yes I totally agree with you I was just trying to clarify what your position was to make sure I understood. The intersectionality issues do seem to make it very much more complicated. My fiance is actually going through a very difficult women's studies class right now and I have been reading up on the various feminist theories presented within the textbook and it appears very difficult to figure out and hard to deal with. I think another problem that may come up with feminism being hated is a sort of laziness. Maybe people just don't want to bother inspecting the cultural assumptions they make in day to day activities?

[Rosa Partizan]

the problem is also that many people take it too personal, too much from an individualist point of view, guys be like "I'd never rape a woman, never oppress her" when it's actually about that you yourself don't have to be a rapist, a racist or whatever, but as a white heterosexual guy you will on a structural level benefit from other's groups oppression, like, you will rather get this great flat or job than a black guy or a woman. People tend to take power structures to a personal level, so they won't understand its underlying dynamics.

[JTC]

the problem is also that many people take it too personal, too much from an individualist point of view, guys be like "I'd never rape a woman, never oppress her" when it's actually about that you yourself don't have to be a rapist, a racist or whatever, but as a white heterosexual guy you will on a structural level benefit from other's groups oppression, like, you will rather get this great flat or job than a black guy or a woman. People tend to take power structures to a personal level, so they won't understand its underlying dynamics.

Do you think this is a particularly American way of seeing things (Americans are praised for their skills in selfishness) or is this indicative of the way that the power structure exists, interacts, and relates with all levels of its own internal hierarchies?

[ColumnNo.4]

I can't speak for the rest of the world but here in the US I encounter more misandry from feminists than I do a fight for equality, awareness of male privilege and the negative effects of patriarchy.

[JTC]

I can't speak for the rest of the world but here in the US I encounter more misandry from feminists than I do a fight for equality, awareness of male privilege and the negative effects of patriarchy.

I haven't experienced this at all myself

[BIXX]

Do you think this is a particularly American way of seeing things (Americans are praised for their skills in selfishness) or is this indicative of the way that the power structure exists, interacts, and relates with all levels of its own internal hierarchies?

I'm inclined to say the latter. I doubt power changes nature in different locations really, just it looks a little different.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Because radical feminism can often be rather militant
Radical feminism is a specific, and small, tendency of feminism. That's like condemning communism because you don't like Hoxhaism.

Also, what's wrong with being militant? Seriously, that's the most fucking stupid criticism of feminism I've heard on a revolutionary leftist forum.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I can't speak for the rest of the world but here in the US I encounter more misandry from feminists
Other than the occasional fringe element, the idea that feminism in the US promotes hatred of men is absurd. The charge of "misandry" is common in the "men's rights movement", though, so I do wonder about where you're coming from ideologically.

[Lily Briscoe]

I know why Feminism is hated on the right, because it rejects the cultural domination of men which is a conservative value. But on the Left there seems to be almost as much hatred and vitriol for Feminism. Why do liberals distance themselves from feminists? Why do far-Leftists distance themselves from Radical or Socialist Feminism?

Could you give some concrete examples? Just to take some of the more visible left groups around here, I know Socialist Alternative calls itself feminist. And while I'm pretty sure the ISO doesn't officially use the label, I don't think they really take a hard line against 'feminism'. I think the PSL is in a similar boat. I know most of the social democratic "milieu" (god I need to take a shower now that I've used this word) consider themselves feminists. So I'm just kind of curious what sort of vitriolic feminist-hating leftists you've had experience with (as someone also on the US west coast) because it's not something I encounter very often outside of very tiny grouplets who I'm more likely to read about on the internet than ever actually encounter in person.

Of course, I do think sexism is a problem on much of the left. But imo this has very little to do with whether or not a group calls itself 'feminist'.

[consuming negativity]

on the right:

*idiot says stupid, misogynist thing*
"but dude, i think everybody should be equal, it's just that feminists hate men"

on the left:

*idiot says stupid, misogynist thing*
"but dude, i'm a feminist, i just don't agree with anything that is actually feminist"

feminism on the right is hated because it is seen as an attack on men and the status quo and the nuclear family and conservative christian/muslim/religious capitalist garbage - they believe in equality, they just think that feminism is not equality

feminism on the left is hated for the exact opposite reasons. they believe in feminism the word, but when pressed, they always default to the same sexist positions as the right-wingers.

in fact i'd go as far as to say that i know better feminists who voted for obama and don't even know what feminism is than among people who call themselves feminist on the left, which they probably only even do because you can't not be a feminist without (rightly) being ridiculed.

[ColumnNo.4]

Other than the occasional fringe element, the idea that feminism in the US promotes hatred of men is absurd. The charge of "misandry" is common in the "men's rights movement", though, so I do wonder about where you're coming from ideologically.

Already on a witch hunt, I see.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Already on a witch hunt, I see.
You opened the door by accusing US feminists in general of being man haters, which is typically heard from MRAs and other right-wingers. I merely said I wondered about where you're coming from. You seem defensive.

[The Disillusionist]

Radical feminism is a specific, and small, tendency of feminism. That's like condemning communism because you don't like Hoxhaism.

Also, what's wrong with being militant? Seriously, that's the most fucking stupid criticism of feminism I've heard on a revolutionary leftist forum.

This, and a few other posts in this thread, have made my point perfectly, there is a complete intolerance towards any criticism whatsoever of the feminist movement, and the slightest dissent of any kind provokes a witch hunt.

I'm no MRA, I don't believe that men deserve any advantage over women, and I never criticized or condemned feminism itself, or even the vast majority of feminists, I simply said that extremist feminists, like extremists in most ideological groups, have alienated people, especially men and trans-women. It's not fair that extremist feminists get all the attention, but that's the nature of conflict, the worst parts of every group are exaggerated by the other group, in an attempt to polarize the conflict and alienate the majority from the other group. Radical feminists have played into this very handily, and as a result, have shot themselves in the foot.

I don't believe in militancy in general, because as I just said, it only leads to alienation. To be militant towards a group that comprises half the world's population is even worse.

Oh, and as for evidence of extremist feminist hatred, here's a thread that discusses some of the hatred towards trans-women:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/look-back-afem2014-t190961/index.html

If there is so much hate towards women who used to be considered men, just because they used to be considered men, how can anyone say that there is absolutely no hate toward men either?

Feminism is a great cause, but this kind of extremist behavior is a threat to that cause, not a help, and it alienates people. I don't see any need to hide from that truth or apologize for saying/writing it just because I'm a guy.

[xnecron101x]

Feminism is criticized on the left because of the fringe extremists who are much louder than the more moderate ones. Feminism, to me, is an unnecessary movement among the left. The reason that is is because the left (you would hope anyway) already recognizes the importance of absolute racial and sexual equality. Having, then, a feminist movement among the left is redundant. The idea should be to promote sexual equality, and the best way to do that is not to reuse the term feminism. That's why I prefer when people use the world egalitarian. The end goal is the abolition of inequality for everyone, not just women.

Feminism has become a bit of a joke in recent years because of how popular the radical feminists have gotten among liberals. They believe the best way to stop inequality is through misandry. That's like promoting racial equality by being anti-white. It just doesn't make sense. So to me, I think it's time to let go of feminism and move on to the general fight for equality period.

[ColumnNo.4]

You opened the door by accusing US feminists in general of being man haters, which is typically heard from MRAs and other right-wingers. I merely said I wondered about where you're coming from. You seem defensive.

You well know I'm referring to the ones I've conversed with, not the entire population.

[The Disillusionist]

Feminism is criticized on the left because of the fringe extremists who are much louder than the more moderate ones. Feminism, to me, is an unnecessary movement among the left. The reason that is is because the left (you would hope anyway) already recognizes the importance of absolute racial and sexual equality. Having, then, a feminist movement among the left is redundant. The idea should be to promote sexual equality, and the best way to do that is not to reuse the term feminism. That's why I prefer when people use the world egalitarian. The end goal is the abolition of inequality for everyone, not just women.
Feminism has become a bit of a joke in recent years because of how popular the radical feminists among liberals. They believe the best way to stop inequality is through misandry. That's like promoting racial equality by being anti-white. It just doesn't make sense. So to me, I think it's time to let go of feminism and move on to the general fight for equality period.

I agree, it shouldn't be possible to be a true anarchist (or any other kind of leftist) without also being an advocate for equality all around. However, I do also believe that a feminist movement is important, to keep the overall egalitarian movement on track, so that all oppressed groups are considered.

[JTC]

I am mostly talking about so called leftists and/or people who are critical of social hierarchies who I've had day to day experiences with, not necessarily established Leftist political movements/parties. For example, the recent viral video that came out of a woman being harassed on the street I posted to my facebook because I wanted to raise some awareness about the real issues present there. All I got back was extremely angry comments (from self-professed "leftists" and politically self-conscious people mind you) about how this was all "fascistic feminist bullshit" and "they made a big deal about a woman being greeted with good morning, WHY ARE THEY WHINING" and other such drivel. Also see this type of stuff on online spaces (not this one as far as I know) that have a considerable Leftist presence which enunciates much the same positions on this and related issues of sexism and misogyny.

[JTC]

on the right:

*idiot says stupid, misogynist thing*
"but dude, i think everybody should be equal, it's just that feminists hate men"

on the left:

*idiot says stupid, misogynist thing*
"but dude, i'm a feminist, i just don't agree with anything that is actually feminist"

feminism on the right is hated because it is seen as an attack on men and the status quo and the nuclear family and conservative christian/muslim/religious capitalist garbage - they believe in equality, they just think that feminism is not equality

feminism on the left is hated for the exact opposite reasons. they believe in feminism the word, but when pressed, they always default to the same sexist positions as the right-wingers.

in fact i'd go as far as to say that i know better feminists who voted for obama and don't even know what feminism is than among people who call themselves feminist on the left, which they probably only even do because you can't not be a feminist without (rightly) being ridiculed.

I've seen this quite a bit too. It seems that a lot of liberals don't really adhere to feminism because they seem to crumple so quickly in response to any anti-feminist critiques. Really odd but not entirely surprising

[JTC]

Feminism is criticized on the left because of the fringe extremists who are much louder than the more moderate ones.

This seems to be what everyone keeps to be bringing up, but I have not heard of ONE instance of where a feminist or feminist group actually where misandric. I always hear accusations but never do I hear a feminist saying something to the tune of "Get rid of all men cause theyre evil!"



Feminism, to me, is an unnecessary movement among the left. The reason that is is because the left (you would hope anyway) already recognizes the importance of absolute racial and sexual equality. Having, then, a feminist movement among the left is redundant. The idea should be to promote sexual equality, and the best way to do that is not to reuse the term feminism. That's why I prefer when people use the world egalitarian. The end goal is the abolition of inequality for everyone, not just women.

This is part of the major problem I was talking about in my OP. What the hell? Feminism is not necessary because, hey, we're trying to reach an egalitarian society right now so don't bother? That would be like saying during the Civil Rights Movement "Uh, hey guys, we know you're oppressed and everything, but don't worry. Once we get this socialist thing in order we'll all be equal so you guys can just stop now." Seriously



Feminism has become a bit of a joke in recent years because of how popular the radical feminists have gotten among liberals. They believe the best way to stop inequality is through misandry. That's like promoting racial equality by being anti-white. It just doesn't make sense. So to me, I think it's time to let go of feminism and move on to the general fight for equality period.

How has radical feminism gotten popular!? I always hear this but I never see any evidence that this is the case. If anything it seems that Liberal Feminism is gaining some limited traction which extreme reactionaries label as "radical" because it goes against conservative culture norms and values. I consider myself a feminist but I also consider myself a socialist. Women are an underrepresented portion of the populace (as are minorities of race and other genders) which need their say in the larger social movement for egalitarianism so that the white middle-class males don't forget that they are the only ones fighting for equality and don't forget that they are in a position of relative authority and power in society. This goes straight back to my OP. How can anyone calling themselves a serious Leftist not be a feminist? Someone want to help me out with this seemingly perplexing question? Is this just me ?

[Art Vandelay]

I know some left groups, like the ICL for example, counterpose 'feminism' to 'women's liberation.' It's a distinction that I don't quite understand, but I tend to think that it has a lot more to do with semantics and perhaps equating feminism with identity politics, than with any substantive disagreements in regards to the necessity of the destruction of patriarchy. I think all Marxists understand that for the proletariat to constitute itself as a 'class for itself,' it must necessarily include the struggles of all oppressed minorities into the struggle to destroy itself as a socioeconomic class.

[bricolage]

Feminism is criticized on the left because of the fringe extremists who are much louder than the more moderate ones.
lol, y'all realise that this fringe extremist vs. moderate rhetoric is exactly the same one that liberals use about communists/socialists?


Feminism, to me, is an unnecessary movement among the left. The reason that is is because the left (you would hope anyway) already recognizes the importance of absolute racial and sexual equality. Having, then, a feminist movement among the left is redundant.
yes you would hope, but in reality this isn't really the case. the left is as much a reflection of existing society as it is a reaction against it. racism and misogyny most certainly do exist among left groups and so movements that seek to counter that are certainly not 'redundant'.


They believe the best way to stop inequality is through misandry.
thing is everyone always claims misandry is rampant amongst feminists but noone ever really has any examples of it. the only time I see it is when people are trolling sexist male leftists on twitter etc.

[motion denied]

Feminism, to me, is an unnecessary movement among the left. The reason that is is because the left (you would hope anyway) already recognizes the importance of absolute racial and sexual equality. Having, then, a feminist movement among the left is redundant.

In the abstract, in the "ideal", I fully agree with you. However, we all know that it doesn't happen that way - it never has. While these should be implicit, they're usually ignored. So, feminism is necessary.


Feminism has become a bit of a joke in recent years because of how popular the radical feminists among liberals. They believe the best way to stop inequality is through misandry. That's like promoting racial equality by being anti-white. It just doesn't make sense. So to me, I think it's time to let go of feminism and move on to the general fight for equality period.

I think I see your point, but you're wording your posts poorly. People might have a negative reaction. I should agree that some radfems use theory to silence criticism and dissent. That's undeniable, it's as clear as water.

[JTC]

I know some left groups, like the ICL for example, counterpose 'feminism' to 'women's liberation.' It's a distinction that I don't quite understand, but I tend to think that it has a lot more to do with semantics and perhaps equating feminism with identity politics, than with any substantive disagreements in regards to the necessity of the destruction of patriarchy. I think all Marxists understand that for the proletariat to constitute itself as a 'class for itself,' it must necessarily include the struggles of all oppressed minorities into the struggle to destroy itself as a socioeconomic class.

That's what I was thinking when I posted my OP, which is why I was confused about how Leftists can be anti-feminist

[motion denied]

Actually, a recent congress of students (who else, really?) ended up in a shitfest with public shaming. Two guys, who had been invited to the discussion, were targeted by simply being there. There is more, but I think that's enough.

Another case. A prominent Marxist professor was assaulted due to a confusion started after he said Obama was no leading light in combating racism. Do not hide behind racism to assault communists, not on my watch.

Maybe not "misandry" or "anti-white" etc, but certainly reactionary bollocks.

[bricolage]

I know some left groups, like the ICL for example, counterpose 'feminism' to 'women's liberation.' It's a distinction that I don't quite understand, but I tend to think that it has a lot more to do with semantics and perhaps equating feminism with identity politics, than with any substantive disagreements in regards to the necessity of the destruction of patriarchy.
It's certainly true that there is a strong history of class collaborationism associated with feminism - that still exists strongly today - and so for communists to want to distinguish themselves from that does theoretically make sense. But considering most women, including those who are active in class struggle movements, chose to articulate themselves through the language of feminism it seems a bit stupid to try and re-invent that from scratch. And anyway there's a lot of shit associated with communism but we still use that term.

Anyway I'd have a lot more sympathy with jettisoning feminism yet still maintaing an idea of women's liberation if the groups that did that didn't nine times out of ten end up being completely dominated with dudes.

[JTC]

Actually, a recent congress of students (who else, really?) ended up in a shitfest with public shaming. Two guys, who had been invited to the discussion, were targeted by simply being there. There is more, but I think that's enough.

Ok fine but what are the details, why were they targeted, etc



Another case. A prominent Marxist professor was assaulted due to a confusion started after he said Obama was no leading light in combating racism. Do not hide behind racism to assault communists, not on my watch.

Maybe not "misandry" or "anti-white" etc, but certainly reactionary bollocks.

Cornel West?

Well I'm not surprised by reactionary bullshit. Reactionary bullshit is everywhere. But I am talking about how Feminists are hated on by some Leftists for being "radical" against power structures which oppress women while at the same time being somewhat ok with actions against the economic power structure. Why would Leftists have a problem with this? To go back to the OP

[QueerVanguard]

Actually, a recent congress of students (who else, really?) ended up in a shitfest with public shaming. Two guys, who had been invited to the discussion, were targeted by simply being there. There is more, but I think that's enough.

Another case. A prominent Marxist professor was assaulted due to a confusion started after he said Obama was no leading light in combating racism. Do not hide behind racism to assault communists, not on my watch.

Maybe not "misandry" or "anti-white" etc, but certainly reactionary bollocks.

Do you have any, like, actual *proof* of this happening or this just more MRA hearsay bullshit?

[JTC]

Anyway I'd have a lot more sympathy with jettisoning feminism yet still maintaing an idea of women's liberation if the groups that did that didn't nine times out of ten end up being completely dominated with dudes.

I don't think this will happen at all (getting rid of feminism) in the foreseeable future unless you invent a machine which can start culture from scratch. Which is part of the problem I'm trying to get at here. There seems to be a lot of reactionary rhetoric in response to feminism but when it comes to critiquing other power structures it's all nice puffy white clouds.

[motion denied]

Ok fine but what are the details, why were they targeted, etc

I wouldn't like to post a full descripton of events because that's not the intent of the thread. But if you really want I can do it tomorrow.


Cornel West?

Well I'm not surprised by reactionary bullshit. Reactionary bullshit is everywhere. But I am talking about how Feminists are hated on by some Leftists for being "radical" against power structures which oppress women while at the same time being somewhat ok with actions against the economic power structure. Why would Leftists have a problem with this? To go back to the OP

Carlos Moore. As to your question: no socialist should have problems with feminism (if anything, only insofar as 9mm posted above).


Do you have any, like, actual *proof* of this happening or is just more MRA hearsay bullshit?

Can you read Portuguese?

As to the students with some reports: http://passapalavra.info/2014/08/98495 (PassaPalavra collective, autonomists)

As to Marxist professor: Minervino de Oliveira collective (http://pcb.org.br/portal/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7876:nota-de-repudio&catid=1:popular), Leninists, linked to the CP.

Solidarity from the IMT, Movimento Negro Socialista (MNS, Socialist Black Movement): http://www.marxismo.org.br/content/solidariedade-mauro-iasi-pcb-abaixo-o-racismo-o-racialismo-e-o-fascismo

Another note of solidarity from other Trotskyists influenced by Moreno Quilombo Raça e Classe, 'Race and Class Quilombo') was only published on facebook.

[Sabot Cat]

Feminism isn't 'so hated', at least in the United States. Most people, when acquainted with the dictionary definition of the word, agree with it. [Apologies for the size of these images.]

http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2014-08-01/Table%20feminism-01.png

In the United States, the percentage of people who call themselves 'feminist' on average [25%] is almost identical to the percentage to those call themselves liberal (http://www.gallup.com/poll/166787/liberal-self-identification-edges-new-high-2013.aspx) [23%], although not always to this precise degree over time.

The connotations of the word tend towards neutral:

http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2014-08-01/FeministInsultCompliment.png

Interesting word clouds from those who view it as an insult, a compliment and neutrally:

http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2014-08-01/FeministInsult.png

http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2014-08-01/FeministInsultCompliment2.png

Honestly, the reason why feminism is a contentious term is because it has a leftist ['liberal' in standard American parlance] connotation.

[Art Vandelay]

It's certainly true that there is a strong history of class collaborationism associated with feminism - that still exists strongly today - and so for communists to want to distinguish themselves from that does theoretically make sense.

Agreed. I think it makes sense when you take a look around the left and see what passes for Marxist-feminism these days. I mean one need not look further than threads on this forum for examples. Take an argument you would typically hear coming from your average liberal rad-fem, repackage it with a socialist veneer, and you have the the type of thinking that plagues sections of the left.


But considering most women, including those who are active in class struggle movements, chose to articulate themselves through the language of feminism it seems a bit stupid to try and re-invent that from scratch.

Again I'm in agreement. I describe myself as a feminist and don't see any reason to abandon the term simply because a lot of nonsense gets peddled under its banner. That said I've had some conversations with folks who counterpose feminism to women's liberation and find that I probably have more in common with them, than I do with most other feminists.

Perhaps if 870 sees this discussion, he could chime in as to why groups like the ICL take the stance that they do on the matter.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

This, and a few other posts in this thread, have made my point perfectly, there is a complete intolerance towards any criticism whatsoever of the feminist movement, and the slightest dissent of any kind provokes a witch hunt.
If he had said "feminism in the US tends to be dominated by bourgeois liberals", that would be a valid criticism. You'll notice I didn't go after Blake's Baby for his criticisms of feminism, so where am I leading a "witch hunt" (itself a loaded term) against "any criticism whatsoever of the feminist movement"? I'm a feminist with my own criticisms of the feminist movement. Catch yourself on.

[The Disillusionist]

If he had said "feminism in the US tends to be dominated by bourgeois liberals", that would be a valid criticism. You'll notice I didn't go after Blake's Baby for his criticisms of feminism, so where am I leading a "witch hunt" (itself a loaded term) against "any criticism whatsoever of the feminist movement"? I'm a feminist with my own criticisms of the feminist movement. Catch yourself on.

I wasn't paying attention to what he said, I was referring to the people jumping on my own post, which is just common sense.

[ColumnNo.4]

Regardless of my previous comment, which I still stand by, I would equate feminism with strength, equality, logic and rationale.

[MonsterMan]

I know why Feminism is hated on the right, because it rejects the cultural domination of men which is a conservative value. But on the Left there seems to be almost as much hatred and vitriol for Feminism. Why do liberals distance themselves from feminists? Why do far-Leftists distance themselves from Radical or Socialist Feminism?

I would conjecture that there is a perceived unequal power minority bias going on within some feminist movements, that's why.

ie: it often appears that these feminist movements are more concerned with increasing the power of the minority (the women) rather than aiming for equality itself.

[Illegalitarian]

It's pretty fucking hilarious to see people on a communist website bashing something for being "too extreme" or "too radical" or whipping out the cherished by liberals, "extremists ruin it for everyone", which is the same shit liberals and social democrats say about us.

Third wave, revolutionary feminism, or even the Marxist feminism that the Maoists are so big on these days, are both acceptable.

Radfems shouldn't be shunned for being radfems, but it's good to be cautious when engaging them because there is quite a large streak of anti-trans sentiment on that side, which boils from the dreaded "anti-man" sentiment that so many MRA's love to cry about. It's probably the biggest divisive issue among feminists today, with a large chunk of the latter, funnily enough, being primitivists. Not that the two have anything to do with each other, just a funny coincidence.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Maybe feminists would stop hating men if men stopped participating in a system organized on endemic sexualized violence (including rape), and uncompensated affective and reproductive labour.

Just sayin'.

[ColumnNo.4]

Maybe feminists would stop hating men if men stopped participating in a system organized on endemic sexualized violence (including rape), and uncompensated affective and reproductive labour.

Just sayin'.

And how would you recommend we go about doing that, reverting to off-the-grid living?

[MonsterMan]

Increasing the power of minorities within their socioeconomic situation IS aiming for equality because minorities have less power in society, than say, middle class white males. The goal however is not to give minorities MORE power within the current power structures, but to unveil and ultimately demolish said power structures so we can all be equal.

Sounds good in theory, though who's to say what determines a 'deserving minority'?

How about people of low intelligence or physical ability - do they deserve power minority enhancement as well?

[consuming negativity]

And how would you recommend we go about doing that, reverting to off-the-grid living?

we could always just kill them en masse

don't worry, i'm willing to die for the cause too, but right now i'm useful so we'll let me live

right ladies?

right? :crying:

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

And how would you recommend we go about doing that, reverting to off-the-grid living?

1. Form men's groups committed to carrying out pro-feminist activity.
2. Practically organize radical/revolutionary groups in ways that acknowledge gendered divisions of labour, and strive to overcome them (e.g. fucking provide childcare! put men in the damn kitchen!)
3. Confront male violence seriously - recognize that it constitutes a betrayal as much police collaboration. Even if someone accidentally collaborated with police (say, being young and stupid and saying the wrong thing) it wouldn't be brushed off with the ease that many radicals brush off sexual assault. Ignorance may be a factor, but it is not an excuse.
4. Make organizing relevant to women and trans* people. When prioritizing activities, ask, "Does this impact women? How?" If you find that it doesn't directly (say, a strike at a uniformly male workplace), seriously investigate how feminist perspectives can be introduced to the struggle.

I could go on, but you get the gist.

[Rosa Partizan]

I think this thread is kind of getting off topic from the OP

ohgodyes! Come on you guys, I'm in the mood for discussion!

[BIXX]

On topic: I think feminism is hated because it contrary to one of the central pillars of our society. People act like it doesn't make sense for the left to be as anti-feminist as we've seen, but they are forgetting that the left is just another bit of society reproducing itself, so of course patriarchy is going to be reproduced. So yeah, feminism runs counter to society, and that's why its hated/feared.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Feminism follows you home at night. You can moan on and on about how something should be done about poverty, war, etc. and then go on with your life without feeling like too much of a hypocrite because an individual cannot do much to influence those things on their own. Feminism on the other hand asks it's practitioners for some immediate actions, rather than continually kicking the can down the road. People don't like copping up to being a hypocrite, so feminism is the problem not them.

[human strike]

On topic: I think feminism is hated because it contrary to one of the central pillars of our society. People act like it doesn't make sense for the left to be as anti-feminist as we've seen, but they are forgetting that the left is just another bit of society reproducing itself, so of course patriarchy is going to be reproduced. So yeah, feminism runs counter to society, and that's why its hated/feared.

Pretty much this.

Since leftist organisations are overwhelmingly patriarchal institutions, the left tolerates feminism as spectacle alone - just like how much of the right does. It's important to remember that actually feminism isn't taboo as is sometimes claimed. David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg all claim to be feminists.

EDIT: I might be slightly exaggerating when I say, "the left tolerates feminism as spectacle alone." But generally I think that's true.

[JTC]

Pretty much this.

Since leftist organisations are overwhelmingly patriarchal institutions, the left tolerates feminism as spectacle alone - just like how much of the right does. It's important to remember that actually feminism isn't taboo as is sometimes claimed. David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg all claim to be feminists.

EDIT: I might be slightly exaggerating when I say, "the left tolerates feminism as spectacle alone." But generally I think that's true.

What do you mean by "the Left tolerates feminism as spectacle alone" ?

[LiaSofia]

Because a lot of what passes for feminism is a caricature of what feminism is or needs to be, when it isn't liberal identity politics or biological essentialism. Even people who I have some time for, like Germaine Greer, say stupid things about how 'women think this, men act like that', which in my opinion is horseshit.

There is also a small section of feminists who seem to think that putting men down somehow helps their cause. So counterproductive!

Anyway, there are lots of reasons why feminism is so hated. I think the main one is that a lot of the time it's placed under the banner of 'excessive, humourless political correctness'. That's how it's perceived. Sexism in the West is often quite subtle and unless it's affecting you directly it can be easy to think that feminists exaggerate instances of discrimination. People point to obvious markers of equality like 'men and women can do the same jobs now', but it's harder for them to understand that gender equality means so much more than just having legal justice. Patriarchy is by definition entrenched within society, so feminism needs to address cultural attitudes and assumptions. Challenging your own assumptions and worldview is difficult, so lots of people are more comfortable to criticise feminists than their own thoughts.

Connected to the above point, there also seems to be an assumption that we have reached our goal and that it is no longer needed. This always seems a strange attitude to me because it involves so much blindness towards issues in other parts of the world. If you assume that everything in North America, Australia/NZ and Western Europe is fine, there's still the fact that women in just about every other country face severe problems. If you are a woman and decide to go backpacking alone, you'll hear constantly about how women can't travel alone in this place, or about how it's not safe to go there without a male companion. Two school friends I know went on holiday to a very touristy resort in Egypt and they had to get the manager of their hotel to remove men from their room. They were harassed the whole time they were there. Do you stop being a feminist when people in your own country achieve some kind of equality and disregard the lives of women who live everywhere else? Or do you just think it's their problem and they'll have to deal with it themselves?