Communism only and exclusively refers to a stateless and classless society, right?

[Jacob Cliff]

Communism only refers to classless and stakes society, right? Nobody really used the "lower stage of communism" as a term anymore; that's now pretty much been replaced by socialism and proletarian dictatorship in Marxist circles. But am I correct in saying that "Communist State" or "Communist Government" is an oxymoron, considering that the proper term is proletarian dictatorship or socialism?

[Zanters]

Yes. Communist State is a term developed by the bourgeoisie used as a catchall term and demonized to strike fear into the people of capitalism.:rolleyes:

[motion denied]

Communist state may make sense if you consider the aberrations that were the Party-States of the former "socialist" bloc. Of course Marx has very little to do with any of this.

As far as I know Lenin said in S&R that the lower phase of communist society was commonly known as Socialism. Then again, he also said that would be a bourgeois state without the bourgeoisie because of equal right (bourgeois right) regarding labour certificates, "the same principle prevails as that which regulates the exchange of commodities". (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm)

However, still according to Marx, content and form would have changed. So the bougie state without bourgeoisie is entirely Lenin's. Considering the large hegemony enjoyed by Leninism throughout the XXth century (and still today), for most people, Socialism = DotP = first phase of communist society, yeah.

[Bala Perdida]

Yes. Communist State is a term developed by the bourgeoisie used as a catchall term and demonized to strike fear into the people of capitalism.:rolleyes:
Fear into the people of capitalism. .. what? Other than that. Yes. Oxymoron. Muh.
Socialism and Communism are also interchangeable terms. Communism is just more specific and 'pure' if that makes sense. If we refer to either as states, that just means socialist/communist party ruled states. Even then someone always mentions it's an oxymoron.

[The Modern Prometheus]

Communism is simply a classless and stateless Society end of. Of course before Communism (in Marxism atleast) there is socialism where the state still exists more or less in the form of a Proletariat dictatorship. This really confuses alot of non Socialists as they think that Communism and Socialism are basically the same thing. Not to mention Marx never used the Roman sense of the word Dictatorship to describe a Proletariat Dictatorship which confuses many people as well. I really get annoyed having to explain this very basic concept of what the terms Communism and Socialism mean to the more leftist Liberals but believe it or not many of them do sort of get it. Eventually :unsure:

[Zanters]

Fear into the people of capitalism. .. what?

I constantly wonder if English really is my mother tongue :grin:

[RedMaterialist]

Communism only refers to classless and stakes society, right? Nobody really used the "lower stage of communism" as a term anymore; that's now pretty much been replaced by socialism and proletarian dictatorship in Marxist circles. But am I correct in saying that "Communist State" or "Communist Government" is an oxymoron, considering that the proper term is proletarian dictatorship or socialism?

Yes. Absolutely. The fight over 'socialism' and 'communism' has been going on for a long time.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Yes, 'communist state' is a term often used by people with a limited understanding of Marxian or anarchist political theory, or by capitalists who wish to undermine communist political theory.

As communism necessarily involves the abolition of the state, it is of course a complete misnomer to talk of the 'communist state'. Wherever you see a state referring to itself as communist, you know it's chatting shit.

[tuwix]

Communism only refers to classless and stakes society, right? Nobody really used the "lower stage of communism" as a term anymore; that's now pretty much been replaced by socialism and proletarian dictatorship in Marxist circles. But am I correct in saying that "Communist State" or "Communist Government" is an oxymoron, considering that the proper term is proletarian dictatorship or socialism?

Well, I'd add to it common property as well. And term 'lower stage of communism' is used frequently by many especially orthodox Marxists.

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

How many people in this thread would be willing to argue that "communism" can't also refer to the ideology of someone or a group of people?

Whether or not the states to which we've alluded represented the genuine or competent application of a Marxist method of dealing with the problem of capitalism is another discussion. Mind that oxymorons can include statements like "jumbo shrimp," when in fact you can order shrimp of relatively large size. You can have a communist state, and really all that's determined by is expressed ideology. But where the "jumbo" size of the shrimp is relative to the usual size of shrimp, the "communist" character of a state is relative to the amount of communism you usually find in a state ... by which nonsense I mean how much red is slapped on everything.

That's really all it takes to make a "communist state."

There may be genuine state-like things that represent progress on the road to communism in the future, just as there have been spurrious Marxisms. I think explaining the stateless character of communist society falls on deaf ears when you're talking to an anti-communist blowhard. They've already decided communism means Barack Jong-Orwell Repo Man bullshit, so you really are kidding yourself if you insist someone like this might listen to reason. Typically when I encounter "communist state," I know enough about the nuances I mentioned earlier to know that, in context, the person didn't mean that communism is about huge government.

[Blake's Baby]

Communism only refers to classless and stakes society, right? Nobody really used the "lower stage of communism" as a term anymore; that's now pretty much been replaced by socialism and proletarian dictatorship in Marxist circles. But am I correct in saying that "Communist State" or "Communist Government" is an oxymoron, considering that the proper term is proletarian dictatorship or socialism?

No. You've completely misunerderstood what Marx has said, what categorisations he's using.

The revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat is one period - one in which there is still a working class which is revolutionising production and social organisation (if there are classes, it doesn't equal socialism/communism, as that is without classes).

Following this is socialist or communist society (these mean the same thing) after property has been taken over by the working class (therefore classes and the state have ceased to exist).

This includes (first) the lower stage of communism.

Following this is the higher stage of communism.

The revolutionary dictatorship is not equal to socialism.

If by 'communist government' you mean 'government by a communist party' then that is synonymous with neither the 'revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat' (because 'govt by Communist Party' =/= 'dictatorship of the proletariat') nor 'socialism' (because that = 'communism').

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

No. You've completely misunerderstood what Marx has said, what categorisations he's using.

The revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat is one period - one in which there is still a working class which is revolutionising production and social organisation (if there are classes, it doesn't equal socialism/communism, as that is without classes).

Following this is socialist or communist society (these mean the same thing) after property has been taken over by the working class (therefore classes and the state have ceased to exist).

This includes (first) the lower stage of communism.

Following this is the higher stage of communism.

The revolutionary dictatorship is not equal to socialism.

If by 'communist government' you mean 'government by a communist party' then that is synonymous with neither the 'revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat' (because 'govt by Communist Party' =/= 'dictatorship of the proletariat') nor 'socialism' (because that = 'communism').

Of course, the OP is referring to common parlance "in Marxist circles", so this one interpretation of what Marx said 150 odd years ago isn't exactly the definitive answer here.

[Blake's Baby]

In the Marxist circles I move in - Left Comms, Council Comms, the SPGB - then yeah, what I said is accurate. If by 'Marxist circles' the OP means MLs/Trots/Maoists, then, anything can mean anything.

[Decolonize The Left]

Communism only refers to classless and stakes society, right? Nobody really used the "lower stage of communism" as a term anymore; that's now pretty much been replaced by socialism and proletarian dictatorship in Marxist circles. But am I correct in saying that "Communist State" or "Communist Government" is an oxymoron, considering that the proper term is proletarian dictatorship or socialism?

While both Hit The North and Blake's Baby are correct, it is conceivable that (in theory) a dictatorship of the proletariat may maintain the state for a short period of time - perhaps if we are speaking more of an isolated revolution in one country. So in this sense one could have a 'communist state' but only with the expressed goal of eliminating said state (paradoxical, but possible). 'Communist government' would be an odd term but one which technically could have merit if one was speaking of a more structuralized communist society (such as those under Leninism and its varients).

Personally, I agree with Blake and Hit The North that communism speaks explicitly about a classless and stateless society: it is the abolition of classes and hence the abolition of states as well. So while I note here that other interpretations are possible and other scenarios conceivable, I do not believe them to be viable.