Communism vs Democratic Socialism

[Redhead]

I have a friend who is a democratic socialist (the reformist anti-capitalist type, not modern social democrat). He wants an alternative to capitalism, but doesnt think marxism is the answear. Any tips on how i can prove him wrong? A "democratic socialism vs communism" pros and cons list would be nice.

[ChrisK]

First off, no one said it better than Rosa Luxemburg in her work Reform or Revolution (http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1900/reform-revolution/index.htm).

Second off, the serious problem with democratic socialism is that it hinges on reforms occurring within a state that exists solely for the benefit of the capitalist class. Elections can only get you so far when the group that has the money can buy elections and legislation. Additionally, any legislation that appears to benefit the working class exists to placate the workers so that the capitalists can continue to dominate the overall system.

(Although I see you are from Norway, The Democrats: A Critical History by Lance Selfa is an excellent demonstration of this using the Democratic Party in America. Much more dense is Hal Draper's work Karl Marx's Theory of Revolution Volume I: State and Bureaucracy)

Third, I would point out that the only semi-successful cases in rejecting capitalism (the Paris Commune, the Russian Revolution, the Spanish Civil War, etc) have all come about by way of revolution. With a history nearly as long (longer if you count utopian socialism), democratic socialism shows very little success at all.

[Tim Cornelis]

'The Right to Property' is enshrined into every constitution, meaning you need about 76% of the popular vote to be legally allowed to expropriate property. This can be bend by appealing to public interest, but it's not a solid foundation for a socialist transformation.

The state has a bureaucratic machinery that is generally recalcitrant to change and will obstruct and sabotage reforms it deems too radical.

It has the same problem as mass movements in non-revolutionary times. When the working class is not revolutionary, socialist reformist parties tend to still appeal to them to gain a popular foothold. Reformist socialist parties will therefore moderate themselves to ensure electoral success and gravitate toward the center of politics in non-revolutionary times. Democratic socialism will become tailist and conform to presently widely held values. (see also:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_voter_theorem )

Even if all conditions for expropriation are (legally) met, private owners will likely still defend their property by hiring private guns.

Popular revolutions generally, although often temporarily, invoke revolutionary enthusiasm which spreads to regions affected by similar problems. A revolutionary wave follows. Since the sustainability and survival of revolutionary territories, 'proto-socialism', is contingent on the spread of the revolution internationally, such a revolutionary wave is of vital importance. Electoral politics do not invoke a similar revolutionary enthusiasm.

More arguments: The limits of social-democratic politics by Dave Zachariah

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I have a friend who is a democratic socialist (the reformist anti-capitalist type, not modern social democrat). He wants an alternative to capitalism, but doesnt think marxism is the answear. Any tips on how i can prove him wrong? A "democratic socialism vs communism" pros and cons list would be nice.

Well, first of all, Marxist revolutionary socialism is of course a definite political programme, but Marxism is also an explanatory framework. If you accept the explanatory framework of Marxism, the answer is obvious - the state is necessarily a dictatorship of one class, in the modern society, of the bourgeoisie, and its very structure is such that the interests of the ruling class dominate. As such, it can't be reformed to serve the interest of the subaltern class of producers, the proletariat.

Since your friend doesn't accept Marxism, you can either point out the successes of Marxist analysis, or the abject failure of any and all attempts to reform capitalism into socialism or a "nice" capitalism. Sweden in the Cold War period is a good example.

[tuwix]

I have a friend who is a democratic socialist (the reformist anti-capitalist type, not modern social democrat). He wants an alternative to capitalism, but doesnt think marxism is the answear. Any tips on how i can prove him wrong? A "democratic socialism vs communism" pros and cons list would be nice.

In real terms, there is no difference between communism and democratic socialism, but I understand that you mean so-called 'democratic socialism' that hos nothing to do with democracy and socialism...

O'd show to your friend what are the rules of so-called 'democratic socialist'. The British 'Labour Party' is the best example. They were exactly 'democratic socialists' after the WWII and rejected a communism. So now they are voting for every imperialist intervention. They were against an increase of taxes for the richest ones. The governments of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were ruling in pretty neoliberal way.

The same you can say about French social democrats, Spanish ones (PSOE), Greek ones (PASOK), etc. The so-called 'social-democrats' just preserve capitalism in form exactly how it is.

And why? Because capitalism corrupts. Money is very good argument for everyone to vote for something or against. Then so-called 'parliamentary democracy' will always mean rules of capital instead of people's ruling.