457 Visas: GOOD OR BAD?

[mojo.rhythm]

Hi comrades,

Here in Australia we have a migrant work program—called 457 Visas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/457_visa)—that allow people to come over from other countries and work here for a temporary period of time, usually on lower wages and with worse conditions than the rest of the population. They are only allowed to remain in the country for the duration of the 457 Visa's lifespan.

Some on the left oppose them, saying that they are anti-worker, pitting workers against one another, and that overseas workers should be able to come in on a permanent basis instead and be given the same wages and conditions as everyone else. Others on the left say that, while far from perfect, 457 Visas give desperate workers opportunities they otherwise would not have, and to oppose them is highly racist.

What do you think comrades? 457 Visas: yay or nay?

[Slavic]

Some on the left oppose them, saying that they are anti-worker, pitting workers against one another, and that overseas workers should be able to come in on a permanent basis instead and be given the same wages and conditions as everyone else. Others on the left say that, while far from perfect, 457 Visas give desperate workers opportunities they otherwise would not have, and to oppose them is highly racist.

Since we all have to work in this capitalist system, we should be pushing for maximum benefits where ever possible. Oversea workers should be granted the same rights and protections under current labor laws as domestic workers. Honestly any of form of treatment is highly racist which I find it funny that the other argument you prose cites racism to support unequal pay.

[Palmares]

I agree with Slavic. I think it's a bit of a no brainer. The visas in my understanding are well and truly exploiting the migrant workers. For example, in mining areas where incomes are vastly higher than other parts of the country, multinational food chains like McDonald's struggle to find local employees. Honestly, who the hell would wanna work at McDonald's in the middle of nowhere for shit pay when you could work in the mine and get mad cashed up? However, to counter this problem, they bring in migrant workers. And unsurprisingly, there workers are not paid relative to the high income of the area, but the median income of McDonald's nationally.

There's also that crazy cop-out from the Palmer United Party with getting migrant worker visas for a handful of asylum seekers who are in detention.

[bricolage]

"The visa conditions state that the 457 visa holder is confined to working for the nominated occupation and sponsor"

Looks like a way for companies to get a hold of workers that have to leave the country to leave them.

Fuck this shit. No borders, nothing less.

[blake 3:17]

Those sound very similar to similar programs here in Canada. I think they're pretty bad. The equivalent here is the Temporary Foreign Worker Program which I think should be scrapped.

In looking up the 457 Visa I saw on wikipedia that there is some potential for permanent residency -- my guess is that the percentage is very small.

There's been much debate here in Canada on this. While I've not been called a racist to my face or in any direct manner, people I've known for years and years have been pretty close to insinuating that anyone who opposes the TFWP is a racist, which is a load of shit.

Why let workers be imported under shitty conditions just to be let go to wherever? That's what these programs are about. They feed on racism and they feed racism. I don't the nonsense about opposition to them being racist.

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

I support the position that any gain is a gain. Unequal treatment of workers, especially along racial lines, is deplorable. This is a thing, however, that will only meet its final end in the abolition of capitalism. The immigrants on the 457 Visa will have much lower pay and worse conditions, but will this pay and will these conditions be better when working on this Visa than when working in their home countries?

A pro-capitalist would cite better conditions here than there as proof of capitalism's benefit to humanity, even after virulently opposing the Visa. I say this Visa is a good thing to take advantage of, but still shows us how deplorable capitalism is. We can't deny this concession simply because it isn't ideal. The awful conditions under which they work are the things to be struggled against, not the Visa itself.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I support the position that any gain is a gain. Unequal treatment of workers, especially along racial lines, is deplorable. This is a thing, however, that will only meet its final end in the abolition of capitalism. The immigrants on the 457 Visa will have much lower pay and worse conditions, but will this pay and will these conditions be better when working on this Visa than when working in their home countries?

A pro-capitalist would cite better conditions here than there as proof of capitalism's benefit to humanity, even after virulently opposing the Visa. I say this Visa is a good thing to take advantage of, but still shows us how deplorable capitalism is. We can't deny this concession simply because it isn't ideal. The awful conditions under which they work are the things to be struggled against, not the Visa itself.

Are you trolling?

Or, like, I guess I can see how one could come to this conclusion if one were willing to look at it narrowly enough. It's the same sort of logic as, "Don't complain kid: sewing Nikes for $2 a day is better than starving!" The thing is, it doesn't go to the root in any meaningful way - ie Why should people be forced to work as sub-citizens for pittances or face deprivation in their home countries?

So, sure, struggling "against the visa" misses the point too - I'd concede that - but we should name it as what it is! A means by which capital regulates labour, and segregates the working class into proletarians (racialized people working shit jobs) and labour aristocrats (buying new jacked up pick-ups every two years). This needs to be confronted head on.

[renalenin]

So, sure, struggling "against the visa" misses the point too - I'd concede that - but we should name it as what it is! A means by which capital regulates labour, and segregates the working class into proletarians (racialized people working shit jobs) and labour aristocrats (buying new jacked up pick-ups every two years). This needs to be confronted head on.

Yes the 457 Visa system we have here is shit because those who are on the 457s are super-exploited by the bigger corporations. We should definitely allow all of our fellow workers to work side by side with us but only for exactly the same pay and conditions. And the pay and conditions must be fair - that is without surplus value stolen by thieving scum of the One Percent.

The Australian trots have a bad reputation for painting the Australian working class as racist and as bogans, and that is because many of them are actually One Percenters themselves.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

To the G.D.U.,

Why would you even open up a response with "are you trolling?" if you're going to make even a small concession in the next sentence?

As for the Visa, I feel like you missed my point, especially since I made the effort to point out that this conditions are intolerable. But your illustration makes my point for me. Isn't a two dollar a day wage better than starvation? It is an inexcusably atrocious way to treat workers (which, you'll recall, is what I've already said), but even you admit that struggling against the Visa is off the mark.

At no point did I suggest that anyone should uncritically embrace this Visa. In fact, work needs to be focused on pointing out the racist super-exploitation that's going on with it. However, as you've agreed, that work must not slip into opposing the Visa's entire existence, that is trying to remove any opportunity for immigrant workers until it can be ensured that they will enjoy equitable and just working conditions (which is a bit of a ways off from happening yet).

Again, since this point seems to have been missed, I'm saying that the deplorable working conditions (and, I assume, living conditions as well) are what need to be fought against, but that the Visa itself needs to be kept on the table for that struggle to make any difference.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

To the G.D.U.,

Why would you even open up a response with "are you trolling?" if you're going to make even a small concession in the next sentence?

As for the Visa, I feel like you missed my point, especially since I made the effort to point out that this conditions are intolerable. But your illustration makes my point for me. Isn't a two dollar a day wage better than starvation? It is an inexcusably atrocious way to treat workers (which, you'll recall, is what I've already said), but even you admit that struggling against the Visa is off the mark.

At no point did I suggest that anyone should uncritically embrace this Visa. In fact, work needs to be focused on pointing out the racist super-exploitation that's going on with it. However, as you've agreed, that work must not slip into opposing the Visa's entire existence, that is trying to remove any opportunity for immigrant workers until it can be ensured that they will enjoy equitable and just working conditions (which is a bit of a ways off from happening yet).

Again, since this point seems to have been missed, I'm saying that the deplorable working conditions (and, I assume, living conditions as well) are what need to be fought against, but that the Visa itself needs to be kept on the table for that struggle to make any difference.

Fair enough, my first reading was sloppy.

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

To the Glorious Disposition Unionist,

No worries, comrade. I think we're more or less in agreement about this kind of thing.

[blake 3:17]

The Australian trots have a bad reputation for painting the Australian working class as racist and as bogans, and that is because many of them are actually One Percenters themselves.


Hahaha. One of the old comrades who seemed to be making out I was some bigot does make 10x as me working half the time. I called a brother out and his response was that ancestors came from Ireland for a better life. Like wtf??? So did mine. And they killed native people and stole native land.

Equal pay for equal work! and don't fall for those shit from academic lefties who proclaim they'll organize the super exploited. There's good people trying to do that -- peace up and much respect to them -- but...

A sister from the trade union movement here was able to win union recognition for both citizens/permanent residents and workers under the TFPW -- she told me it just didn't work. I think the workforce was something like 50/50 at one of the luxury hotels in Alberta. The union was one of the most undynamic ever. This is back in 2003 or 04. I believe there was a lawsuit and a bunch of other stuff -- some of which could've made the union local more exciting and energized.

The one stream of workers under the TFPW I'm most positive about are politically are some of the agricultural workers. Justicia is a very interesting campaign and I feel badly I've fallen out with a couple of people very active in it http://www.justicia4migrantworkers.org/

I've never worked a day of farm work in my life, but I do do reproductive labour alongside women from the Philippines who've often come over on the TFWP and they all fucking hate it with all the strings attached. They're a really interesting bunch -- mostly either very religious or communists! I've also never made good friends with fundamentalist Christians outside of this small section of the world -- there's a pretty general consensus to scrap the TFWP, both amongst the communists and Christians: http://www.magkaisacentre.org/2014/08/08/lcp-a-nightmare-for-filipinos/

It is a real fucking drag. This may sound very petty but I gave a co-worker 20 dollars a week for about 2 years to sponsor her sister to come to Canada on this, but then her sister came here, was miserable, got kicked from one job, and then got assaulted at another and went home. I didn't care about the money, but wtf??? That was going to the federal government! For what? Nothing! Other than to indulge some yuppie scum.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

More TFWP-related links:

PINAY (http://pinayquebec.blogspot.ca/)
Solidarity Across Borders (http://www.solidarityacrossborders.org/en)

[blake 3:17]

Temporary foreign workers hired in area with high aboriginal unemployment
RENATA D’ALIESIO AND JOE FRIESEN
The Globe and Mail
Published Tuesday, Oct. 14 2014, 3:00 AM EDT
Last updated Tuesday, Oct. 14 2014, 6:06 AM EDT

At the centre of an Alberta mall catering to four First Nations grappling with massive unemployment is a cafeteria that dishes out burgers, fries and bannock – cooked and served by temporary foreign workers.

The exact number of foreigners employed by Ermineskin Cafeteria’s owner, Howard Ng, is unclear. Mr. Ng, who is not aboriginal, did not respond to repeated interview requests relayed to him through phone messages, e-mails and a couriered letter to his corporate registration address in Edmonton.

His cafeteria in Ermineskin Cree Nation is in the red-brick Maskwacis Mall, a hub for about 12,500 people. The mall has an employment centre, which estimated that seven of 10 aboriginal adults in the four First Nations didn’t have a job in 2009.

According to interviews with several residents and property management officials, few of Mr. Ng’s workers in Maskwacis Mall – or in his cafeteria in the Samson Cree Nation admin building or his Chinese restaurant in the Samson Mall – are aboriginal. A federal government document, obtained by The Globe and Mail through access-to-information legislation, states Ermineskin Cafeteria requested four temporary foreign workers (TFWs) in 2013 and had two foreigners on staff, making up at least one-third of the work force. A staffer at his Maskwacis Mall cafeteria confirmed at least two TFWs work at that location.

Mr. Ng’s reliance on TFWs is a gnawing frustration for some residents who contend he should be turning to the local aboriginal community for employees and Ottawa shouldn’t be allowing foreign workers in areas of high unemployment.

full article http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/first-nations-coming-second-to-temporary-foreign-workers/article21084696/