a group that supports israel in this forum..why???

[Daimon]

Hello everybody here,i have a simply question,why there is a group that supports israel on this forum?Israel a country with army an evil country i can say who attack to unarmed people.People always say here abolish the borders...so what about the borders of israel..that huge walls?i talk with the guy that start the forum he just say "its bad"? and then he didnt respond again like the fascist people do.and then i talk about that with an admin and he said he will talk to the other admins but nothing happen.What i want and i think you too want its the admins to delete this group.or else something weird and suspicious happens here..:mad:

[John Lennin]

At issue is not whether or not Israeli policies can be criticized. Israeli policies should be criticized, especially those aimed at undermining any possibility of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. However, the critique of “Zionism” prevalent in many anti-imperialist circles goes beyond a critique of Israeli policies. It attributes to Israel and the “Zionists” a unique malevolence and global conspiratorial power. Israel is not criticized as other countries are criticized – but as the embodiment of that which is deeply and fundamentally evil. In short, the representation of Israel and the “Zionists” in this form of “anti-imperialist” “anti-Zionism” is essentially the same as that of the Jews in the virulent anti-Semitism that found its purest expression in Nazism. In both cases, the “solution” is the same – elimination in the name of emancipation.

http://b-g-h-u.blogspot.de/2009/12/moishe-postone-hamburg-2009-another.html

[Palmares]

Hmm.. I'm suspicious that this is an anti-Deutsch thing...?

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

Accusations of "Zionism" are off the mark, don't you think? The state of Israel isn't serving a uniquely "Jewish" or even Israeli mode of imperialism. Israel serves the interests of U.S.-centric imperialism.

The "anti-Zionists" it's been my burden to know believe the U.S. government to serve Israeli interests. They've got it reversed! It's the Israeli government that serves U.S. interests.

Do what you must to avoid the trap of anti-Semitism, even if you have to arbitrarily blame "Stalinism" like that blog post did.

[Sasha]

since the OP is banned lets not fall in this troll trap now shall we?

[DOOM]

since the OP is banned lets not fall in this troll trap now shall we?

Lol that guy sent me some PMs, asking me to delete the group and calling me names. Needless to say that I ignored him. However, you're right. The only purpose of this thread is baiting. There are other ways to start a discussion about anti-zionism and its correlation with anti-semitism.

[flaming bolshevik]

The guy is also a self described Fascist.

[Martin Luther]

Troll or not, I think it's a legit question. Why aren't supporters of zionism restricted?

[John Lennin]

Release the kraken!

[Lord Testicles]

Troll or not, I think it's a legit question. Why aren't supporters of zionism restricted?

Why do we need to restrict anyone? This culture on revleft of restricting people even if they're not disruptive to discussions is quite frankly, fucking creepy.

[Chomskyan]

Zionism began as a Leftist movement, it has morphed into a fascist state. I'm sure some people still have the nostalgia behind the "Socialist" State of Israel, and support it because of that.

[Martin Luther]

Why do we need to restrict anyone? This culture on revleft of restricting people even if they're not disruptive to discussions is quite frankly, fucking creepy.

That's a seperate question. But right wingers and social democrats are restricted, and fascists and racists are banned. Noone can seriously argue that support for Israel doesn't fit one of those.

[DOOM]

Zionism began as a Leftist movement, it has morphed into a fascist state. I'm sure some people still have the nostalgia behind the "Socialist" State of Israel, and support it because of that.

Yeah, the jews are so obviously fash! They're basically doing the same to the arabs, right?
I mean, you know the rothschilds founded Nazi Germany? Coincidence, huh?

[Martin Luther]

At issue is not whether or not Israeli policies can be criticized. Israeli policies should be criticized, especially those aimed at undermining any possibility of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. However, the critique of “Zionism” prevalent in many anti-imperialist circles goes beyond a critique of Israeli policies. It attributes to Israel and the “Zionists” a unique malevolence and global conspiratorial power. Israel is not criticized as other countries are criticized – but as the embodiment of that which is deeply and fundamentally evil. In short, the representation of Israel and the “Zionists” in this form of “anti-imperialist” “anti-Zionism” is essentially the same as that of the Jews in the virulent anti-Semitism that found its purest expression in Nazism. In both cases, the “solution” is the same – elimination in the name of emancipation.

Complete garbage, no different than the mental gymnastics practiced by American apologists for Israel, who will never fail to find some deep anti-semitic overtone in the most innocuous criticism of a specific Israeli policy.

Of course any state founded on ethnic cleansing that practices lebensraum is going to be treated as "evil".

[Le Socialiste]

Zionism began as a Leftist movement, it has morphed into a fascist state. I'm sure some people still have the nostalgia behind the "Socialist" State of Israel, and support it because of that.

You mean the same "socialist" state that actively encouraged the exclusion and displacement of Palestinians? Since its founding, Israel's early brand of "socialism" was strictly exclusivist in practice, primarily as a vehicle toward the displacement and resettlement of land inhabited by the indigenous population. Anyone with a degree of nostalgia for the earliest state form(s) of labor Zionism and the Israeli state are either uninformed about its history, or willing to overlook these factors altogether (though I can't imagine why).

[Sasha]

Zionism didnt start with the foundation of the state of Israel, if anything it ended with it.

[Crabbensmasher]

Supporting the workers of Israel as I support the workers of the US, as I support the workers of the UK, as I support the workers of Iran, as I support the workers of you get the point.

I guess I don't really get it, but does the group support the Israeli government? The current regime, state of affairs? Or just the people of Israel who get lumped in with Israel bashing in leftie circles?

[Sasha]

nah, we just had a whole lot of user groups like "stand with gadaffi's libia" "hands off north-korea", "in defence of iran" and other mental anti-imp bullshit so some users made a pro-israel one as a semi-serious retort. obviously it strikes a nerve where its intended.

[Rosa Partizan]

Supporting the workers of Israel as I support the workers of the US, as I support the workers of the UK, as I support the workers of Iran, as I support the workers of you get the point.

I guess I don't really get it, but does the group support the Israeli government? The current regime, state of affairs? Or just the people of Israel who get lumped in with Israel bashing in leftie circles?

No, Netanyahu and all these ultraconservatives blow ass, and I wrote that like a 100 times.

[Atsumari]

I have trouble taking the group seriously when incredibly immature and offensive jokes like this (https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1.0-9/1069828_646861685379135_30902990_n.png) appears in the group.

[DOOM]

Yeah this picture was a joke, completely unrelated to the group. However, the purpose of this group is serious for the reasons I've stated a 100 times. As Sasha said, we wanted to strike a nerve. The discussions about Israel and the jews on this site were pretty boring and typical for the leftist movement (ignoring germanophone leftists) so we tried to make a point, that anti-zionism can indeed function as a codeword for anti-semitism.
The reactions that we got for this group prove that the left has some major problems with (understanding) anti-semitism and using proper reflected critique of Israel.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Yeah this picture was a joke, completely unrelated to the group. However, the purpose of this group is serious for the reasons I've stated a 100 times. As Sasha said, we wanted to strike a nerve. The discussions about Israel and the jews on this site were pretty boring and typical for the leftist movement (ignoring germanophone leftists) so we tried to make a point, that anti-zionism can indeed function as a codeword for anti-semitism.
The reactions that we got for this group prove that the left has some major problems with (understanding) anti-semitism and using proper reflected critique of Israel.

Sorry, so the "proper reflected critique of Israel" is . . . ?
Is pointing out that Israel is viciously racist settler state founded by right-wing paramilitary death-squads "anti-semetic"?

Because, let's be frank - that doesn't say anything about Jewish people, it speaks to the specific history of the state of Israel. Branding critiques of the state of Israel "anti-semetic" is not only bullshit, but is implicitly anti-semetic in identifying Jewish people generally with a racist settler state that unjustly claims to act on their behalf. It's something like identifying Louis Farrakhan as the legitimate voice of New Afrikans (ie fucking ridiculous).

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

No but pretending that Israel controls US/EU foreign policy is actually pretty damn anti-semitic, and is such a common viewpoint in leftist circles that it doesn't even merit discussion, people are ready to accept a claim like that at face value.
Add that to the anti-semitic slogans and even violence that broke out during some of Gaza solidarity actions and it starts to look like the anti-Germans might actually have a point or two.

I would say I disagree with most of what they said during the last war, particularly they way they defended Israel's actions (using talking points that sounded like they came from the IDF itself for example..) but the fact that all the anti-Zionists are completely unwilling to examine their own beliefs critically is a bad sign imo.

[DOOM]

edit

[Martin Luther]

No but pretending that Israel controls US/EU foreign policy is actually pretty damn anti-semitic, and is such a common viewpoint in leftist circles that it doesn't even merit discussion, people are ready to accept a claim like that at face value.


Says you? Some people do this, but in fact, it's the hallmark of right wing anti-zionism.


Sorry, so the "proper reflected critique of Israel" is . . . ?
Is pointing out that Israel is viciously racist settler state founded by right-wing paramilitary death-squads "anti-semetic"?

Because, let's be frank - that doesn't say anything about Jewish people, it speaks to the specific history of the state of Israel. Branding critiques of the state of Israel "anti-semetic" is not only bullshit, but is implicitly anti-semetic in identifying Jewish people generally with a racist settler state that unjustly claims to act on their behalf. It's something like identifying Louis Farrakhan as the legitimate voice of New Afrikans (ie fucking ridiculous).

That's the most ironic part of this whole thing. For all the talk of anti-semitism being the motivation behind anti-zionism, it's the zionists, not the anti-zionists, who equate the jews, or at least some kind of common Jewish interest, with israel.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Man, I would look at any of the threads regarding Israel that took place during the last war and you can see that shit all over the place, they just call it the "Israel Lobby" instead of a Zionist Cabal or whatever. It's been a few years now since I actually interacted with activists, but it was definitely a pervasive idea almost totally regardless of individual tendency. I can't imagine it's changed.

You're on the money regarding it's political origins though, but that doesn't change the fact that the left is enamored with it as a concept.

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

My understanding has always been that "Zionism" meant the effort of self-determination by Jewish people as a group, which, in those broad terms, is something I can get behind. But keep in mind "Zionism" is a word used by the Right to implicate Jewish people in a conspiracy to subvert the sovereignty of nations, especially "Aryan" nations. As I mentioned before, neo-Nazis assert that the U.S. is a puppet of Israel when, in fact, the reality is the reverse! But no amount of reality can penetrate a Nazi's thick, "evolved" skull.

I don't think Israel is an example of Zionism at all. The land being occupied by settlers was not acquired through the independent efforts of an organized Jewish proletariat, and we see who the creation of Israel benefits as an outpost of U.S.-N.A.T.O. imperialism, able to keep an eye on the oil-rich Middle East and on Western assets in northern Africa. There have been monstrous utterances by offices in the Israel government that dehumanize Palestinians and draw on nationalistic language, but this has nothing to do with the Jewish working class, Judaism as a religion and identity, or Zionism. It just shows you that it doesn't matter if it's a cross or a Magen David or a crescent or a Haitian veve or the copyrighted symbol of Hubbardism; Rightism will wrap itself in whatever symbols it feels it can use to manipulate the masses in the service of wealth and elite power.

[Martin Luther]

Man, I would look at any of the threads regarding Israel that took place during the last war and you can see that shit all over the place, they just call it the "Israel Lobby" instead of a Zionist Cabal or whatever. It's been a few years now since I actually interacted with activists, but it was definitely a pervasive idea almost totally regardless of individual tendency. I can't imagine it's changed.

I'm well aware of the concept from my own activism. People in general need educating about most things. But focusing on the "Israel lobby" isn't necessarily anti-semitic. Few actually claim it controls policy or ascribe some special conspiratorial influence to it. The ones that do are the right wingers and those prone to conspiracy theories in general. Most recognize it as a conglomeration of all the interests that support Israel, which is what it is. But they lack the means to understand how it relates to American imperialism, and so fall back on some form of the idea that the "Israel lobby" is just some kind of cancerous right wing influence. The fact that universities go after pro-Palestinian activists with a special zeal doesn't help the image that it has undue influence.


You're on the money regarding it's political origins though, but that doesn't change the fact that the left is enamored with it as a concept.

I don't think it is.

[cyu]

I'd say supporting any "nation" is just another example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

This would even apply to supporting anarcho-syndicalists or even just RevLeft anarcho-syndicalists. Statistically speaking, there are going to be jerks in any group. It would be foolish to blindly assume they'll all be angels.

So if we're not supporting all RevLeft anarcho-syndicalists, all anarcho-syndicalists, or all Israelis, what then do we support? Certainly there are many Israelis worth protecting, just as there are many Palestinians worth protecting. The issue is more complex than the oversimplifications demagogues would have people believe - after all, demagoguery is much harder when their followers start thinking for themselves.

[keine_zukunft]

It's semi provocative but it is really challenging bad narratives in regards to Israel. Rarely are other countries critiqued in a way that whole population is biologically essentially defined as racist and evil. For many living in Israel is about never going to the slaughter again.

[Slavic]

It's semi provocative but it is really challenging bad narratives in regards to Israel. Rarely are other countries critiqued in a way that whole population is biologically essentially defined as racist and evil. For many living in Israel is about never going to the slaughter again.

It still doesn't change the fact that the retort, "Support for Israel" is just as stupid a position to be held as "All Israelis are Zionists".

[PhoenixAsh]

lets please not act like there isn't a huge antisemitic undertone in the revolutionary left.

[motion denied]

hey what do you guys think about the Kronstadt rebellion?

[Sea]

hey what do you guys think about the Kronstadt rebellion?I think the Kronstadt rebellion was a great attempt at giving sailors a homeland where they can be free from being mass-sailed, and I am willing to completely gloss over the relevance of that part of the argument to its dialectical relationship to the sailboat as a whole.

[A Psychological Symphony]

lets please not act like there isn't a huge antisemitic undertone in the revolutionary left.

And because of this we have to be careful of how we critique the state of Israel? Give me a break! Every single time I see a critical opinion of Israel its quickly followed by calls of antisemitism.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

And because of this we have to be careful of how we critique the state of Israel? Give me a break! Every single time I see a critical opinion of Israel its quickly followed by calls of antisemitism.

I think it's a tight line, though.

Criticism of the actions of the government of Israel is legitimate and needs to be encouraged in solidarity with the Palestinians, but let's not pretend that there has, at best, been a sloppiness in the way that some anti-zionists merely equate jews and israel, and talk of israel the nation rather than israel the nation-state, or israel the government.

There has been plenty of anecdotal evidence in recent months suggesting that cloaked anti-semitism has been prevalent at Palestinian solidarity demonstrations. I think it just really serves to neutralise the whole idea of solidarity if some people are so careless with their words and analyses.

Having said all of that, I think that actual 'support for Israel' is disgusting and indefensible. That state has done horrific, horrific things to Palestinian people of all ages and genders, to Palestinian hospitals, education centres, to their energy supply and living standards. It has taken away their dignity in life, and often their lives and those of their families and friends, too.

[PhoenixAsh]

And because of this we have to be careful of how we critique the state of Israel? Give me a break! Every single time I see a critical opinion of Israel its quickly followed by calls of antisemitism.

Really? I thought you would be more concerned with how it is that the revolutionary left is riddled with anti-semites and anti-semitic sentiments.

[Illegalitarian]

This all sounds like highly anecdotal garbage to me, sorry.

There is no antisemitic undertone to criticisms of Israel in the revolutionary left.. that shit hardly even exists in the liberal left, I have a hard time believing it's a widespread thing happening on our end.


From the brief period in the 30's where Nazi Germany existed and wasn't taking over something, many academics claimed that distrust of Hitler from people such as Churchill was simply typical post-wwi western anti-german sentiments, which isn't to compare Nazi Germany to Israel, even if there are comparisons to be made.

In essence it's the same attitude

[DOOM]

I think the Kronstadt rebellion was a great attempt at giving sailors a homeland where they can be free from being mass-sailed, and I am willing to completely gloss over the relevance of that part of the argument to its dialectical relationship to the sailboat as a whole.

epic joke m8, *upvote

[DOOM]

This all sounds like highly anecdotal garbage to me, sorry.

There is no antisemitic undertone to criticisms of Israel in the revolutionary left.. that shit hardly even exists in the liberal left, I have a hard time believing it's a widespread thing happening on our end.


From the brief period in the 30's where Nazi Germany existed and wasn't taking over something, many academics claimed that distrust of Hitler from people such as Churchill was simply typical post-wwi western anti-german sentiments, which isn't to compare Nazi Germany to Israel, even if there are comparisons to be made.

In essence it's the same attitude

This is just wrong.
http://www.krisis.org/2010/zionism-anti-semitism-and-the-left

[DOOM]

And because of this we have to be careful of how we critique the state of Israel? Give me a break! Every single time I see a critical opinion of Israel its quickly followed by calls of antisemitism.

Well if you want to be consistent (cuz daily reminder: antisemitism is reactionary) you'll have to. But I guess resorting to regressive zionist-free-mason-USrael rhetorics is just too tempting, isn't it?

[Rosa Partizan]

This all sounds like highly anecdotal garbage to me, sorry.

There is no antisemitic undertone to criticisms of Israel in the revolutionary left.. that shit hardly even exists in the liberal left, I have a hard time believing it's a widespread thing happening on our end.


From the brief period in the 30's where Nazi Germany existed and wasn't taking over something, many academics claimed that distrust of Hitler from people such as Churchill was simply typical post-wwi western anti-german sentiments, which isn't to compare Nazi Germany to Israel, even if there are comparisons to be made.

In essence it's the same attitude

https://archive.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1386/80/1386800038172.jpg

you've never been at a Pro Palestine demonstration, right?

http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/wp-content/uploads/Anti-Israel-Demo.Stuttgart.25.07.14.Plakat.juedische.Medien.kl ein_.jpg

[translated: Where are CNN, BBC, etc? Oh yeah, they're provided with Jewish money, that's why they're not allowed to talk about the terror of the Jewish state]

look at this sweetheart

http://i2.wp.com/www.publikative.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/10495378_764357190252128_3940279096836753631_o.jpg

a real freedom fighter and legitimate critic of Israel, right?

http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/wp-content/uploads/Anti-Israel-Demo.Stuttgart.25.07.14.Plakat.Stuermer-Karikaturen.klein_.b.jpg

oh look, a Jew with a crooked nose!

you will find pictures like these extremely regularly at such demos, and even the people saying "it's just about zionism" won't take a stand against them. Such people are at least accepted at such events, sometimes even desired. And don't forget about slogans like "Jew Jew coward pig, come on over and fight alone" (translated from German, so there's no rhyme in it). This is the reality on German streets, taking place at the majority of demonstrations.

you will find the equation "money, capital, global supremacy, control of media = Israel/Jews" among the left as well as the right, this is why they even go together to these demonstrations. Jews are a VERY easy bogeyman that everyone can agree on, even if the argumentation may differ. But, well, sometimes the argumentation doesn't differ that heavily when you look how leftists and national socialists define corporation, capitalism, the difference between "schaffendes" (hard-working, honest people) and "raffendes" (dishonest people that work with money, guess who used to work with money because they weren't allowed to do anything else?) Kapital...there a a lot of intersections between this very simplified capitalism critic. Yeah, they call it all Zionism, but when Zionism is presented as some jewish crooked-nosed octopus that is going to take over the world and destroy all the honest, innocent, hard-working people...do the math, goddamn.

[Fourth Internationalist]

https://archive.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1386/80/1386800038172.jpg

you've never been at a Pro Palestine demonstration, right?

http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/wp-content/uploads/Anti-Israel-Demo.Stuttgart.25.07.14.Plakat.juedische.Medien.kl ein_.jpg

[translated: Where are CNN, BBC, etc? Oh yeah, they're provided with Jewish money, that's why they're not allowed to talk about the terror of the Jewish state]

look at this sweetheart

http://i2.wp.com/www.publikative.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/10495378_764357190252128_3940279096836753631_o.jpg

a real freedom fighter and legitimate critic of Israel, right?

http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/wp-content/uploads/Anti-Israel-Demo.Stuttgart.25.07.14.Plakat.Stuermer-Karikaturen.klein_.b.jpg

oh look, a Jew with a crooked nose!

you will find pictures like these extremely regularly at such demos, and even the people saying "it's just about zionism" won't take a stand against them. Such people are at least accepted at such events, sometimes even desired. And don't forget about slogans like "Jew Jew coward pig, come on over and fight alone" (translated from German, so there's no rhyme in it). This is the reality on German streets, taking place at the majority of demonstrations.

you will find the equation "money, capital, global supremacy, control of media = Israel/Jews" among the left as well as the right, this is why they even go together to these demonstrations. Jews are a VERY easy bogeyman that everyone can agree on, even if the argumentation may differ. But, well, sometimes the argumentation doesn't differ that heavily when you look how leftists and national socialists define corporation, capitalism, the difference between "schaffendes" (hard-working, honest people) and "raffendes" (dishonest people that work with money, guess who used to work with money because they weren't allowed to do anything else?) Kapital...there a a lot of intersections between this very simplified capitalism critic. Yeah, they call it all Zionism, but when Zionism is presented as some jewish crooked-nosed octopus that is going to take over the world and destroy all the honest, innocent, hard-working people...do the math, goddamn.

I believe Illiegalitarian specifically is referring to anti-Semitism being widespread among the revolutionary left in supporting Palestine. Posting a picture of a pro-Palestinian fascist (one can tell my the man's tattoos), for example, does not really prove anything in this case. Were those other people revolutionary leftists? (I'm not taking a side here, I'm just saying)

[Rosa Partizan]

why does this picture not help when at these demonstrations, everyone's coming together, be it people from the right or left (yes, those people DO talk about a classless, communist society)? if where you come from, you haven't experienced this, lucky you, here it's not unusual to talk about how you build up a new society, without the societal force to work, with women's liberation etc and in the next sentence talk about how zionism is a threat to such a better world.

[Fourth Internationalist]

why does this picture not help when at these demonstrations, everyone's coming together, be it people from the right or left (yes, those people DO talk about a classless, communist society)? if where you come from, you haven't experienced this, lucky you, here it's not unusual to talk about how you build up a new society, without the societal force to work, with women's liberation etc and in the next sentence talk about how zionism is a threat to such a better world.

Are those people who are advocating that society, i.e. communism, are the ones saying Jewishness (not Zionism) is bad? Attacking Zionism is not bad, but attacking Jews is, and the people in your photos you posted did that, but they do not seem to be explicitly communist especially since one was clearly a neo-Nazi or fascist of some sort. Not that anti-Semitism cannot exist on the left, but I think they proved nothing against Illegaitarian's point.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Are those people who are advocating that society, i.e. communism, are the ones saying Jewishness (not Zionism) is bad? Attacking Zionism is not bad, but attacking Jews is, and the people in your photos you posted did that, but they do not seem to be explicitly communist especially since one was clearly a neo-Nazi or fascist of some sort. Not that anti-Semitism cannot exist on the left, but I think they proved nothing against Illegaitarian's point.

isn't the whole point of communism that it requires people? And by people, more than just a handful of people already committed to their explicitly communist sects.

Isn't the whole point of solidarity with Palestine that we are trying to internationalise struggle along class lines? If that is the case, and there are other people who are bringing anti-semitic elements to struggles that we are trying to base in class, then yes we do have a major problem.

[Fourth Internationalist]

isn't the whole point of communism that it requires people? And by people, more than just a handful of people already committed to their explicitly communist sects.

Isn't the whole point of solidarity with Palestine that we are trying to internationalise struggle along class lines? If that is the case, and there are other people who are bringing anti-semitic elements to struggles that we are trying to base in class, then yes we do have a major problem.

I think you know that is not the problem Illegalitarian/Rosa/I is/am referring to. The problem is anti-Semitism attacks being touted or even performed by the revolutionary left, not the existence of anti-Semitism in the world. That can be discussed, but that is not what the word "problem" here is referring to.

[Martin Luther]

The problem is that the anti-Germans are committed to acting out this bizarre blood debt to Israel on behalf on Europe, so whenever actual anti-semites back the Palestinians/show up at rallies, it just confirms their bias that antisemitism is the real motivation behind opposition to Israel and zionism, no matter what the facts say.

Hence the obsession with left wing "antisemitism" being a problem.

[Palmares]

Though I personally have some reservations/critiques about the ideology of the anti-Deutsch, I understand that the cultural context in Germany is particularly unique in regards to the anti-Semitism. For example, I had this really long discussion with a German about the matter, and we didn't entirely disagree with each other, but an interesting point they made to me (an anglophone) was that the German word for Jew was commonly used as a pejorative. I was confused. But they explained to me that it was like how in English the word gay is used by some as a pejorative. It made me realise, in my life, I had almost never experienced someone using Jew in that way. Last time I heard it, I was unsure if I actually just heard what I heard... "Say what???" :mad:

But hell, I don't pretend to understand Germans, haha. I remember, an anarchist friend from the Philippines held some talks in Germany about mining in his country. He mentioned the struggles of indigenous peoples for their land. But all the questions were about the workers and their conditions. My friend was baffled. Why ask about the workers? What about the indigenous peoples? Different context...

[Martin Luther]

From the brief period in the 30's where Nazi Germany existed and wasn't taking over something, many academics claimed that distrust of Hitler from people such as Churchill was simply typical post-wwi western anti-german sentiments, which isn't to compare Nazi Germany to Israel, even if there are comparisons to be made.



In this country the America First types claimed that people opposed Hitler because he stood up for Germany and the west against the Soviets, and anti-nazis wanted to see Germany wiped out by other nations and ethnic groups.

The analogy is almost perfect, anti-muslim chauvinists and zionsts say the exact same things about Israel.

[cyu]

Everyone group has people who think differently. Will there be racists among people who protest Israel or South Africa? No doubt. Will there even be racists among anti-racism ideologues - it's probably likely there's unconscious racism there as well.

In any case, if your ideology is meant to be an universal one, then it should be able to speak to all kinds of people - whether they're currently anti-Semites or Zionists, it shouldn't really matter if your ideology has a place for everyone, then in theory it should "work" for all of them - whether they're willing to listen is a different question, but minds are like hardware, and ideologies are like software. If your ideology can work by installing the same software everywhere, then it can be considered universal. If your ideology is "non-compatible with certain hardware" then it is not an universal ideology.

Personally I would say all "true" leftist ideologies must be universal or they can't be truly leftist, but I'm sure there are crazies that would disagree with that :lol:

[Illegalitarian]

https://archive.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1386/80/1386800038172.jpg

you've never been at a Pro Palestine demonstration, right?

http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/wp-content/uploads/Anti-Israel-Demo.Stuttgart.25.07.14.Plakat.juedische.Medien.kl ein_.jpg

[translated: Where are CNN, BBC, etc? Oh yeah, they're provided with Jewish money, that's why they're not allowed to talk about the terror of the Jewish state]

look at this sweetheart

http://i2.wp.com/www.publikative.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/10495378_764357190252128_3940279096836753631_o.jpg

a real freedom fighter and legitimate critic of Israel, right?

http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/wp-content/uploads/Anti-Israel-Demo.Stuttgart.25.07.14.Plakat.Stuermer-Karikaturen.klein_.b.jpg

oh look, a Jew with a crooked nose!

you will find pictures like these extremely regularly at such demos, and even the people saying "it's just about zionism" won't take a stand against them. Such people are at least accepted at such events, sometimes even desired. And don't forget about slogans like "Jew Jew coward pig, come on over and fight alone" (translated from German, so there's no rhyme in it). This is the reality on German streets, taking place at the majority of demonstrations.

you will find the equation "money, capital, global supremacy, control of media = Israel/Jews" among the left as well as the right, this is why they even go together to these demonstrations. Jews are a VERY easy bogeyman that everyone can agree on, even if the argumentation may differ. But, well, sometimes the argumentation doesn't differ that heavily when you look how leftists and national socialists define corporation, capitalism, the difference between "schaffendes" (hard-working, honest people) and "raffendes" (dishonest people that work with money, guess who used to work with money because they weren't allowed to do anything else?) Kapital...there a a lot of intersections between this very simplified capitalism critic. Yeah, they call it all Zionism, but when Zionism is presented as some jewish crooked-nosed octopus that is going to take over the world and destroy all the honest, innocent, hard-working people...do the math, goddamn.

Unfortunately appeals to extreme instances and anecdotal rambling does nothing for you and says nothing for some alleged prevalence of antisemitism within the left.


Nice pictures though, seems like a completely reasonable and mature way to present your "argument" :o

[Rosa Partizan]

this is why I wrote about similar argumentation lines between leftists and national socialists, thank you very much for ignoring it, I knew this would be happening.

[Illegalitarian]

Everyone group has people who think differently. Will there be racists among people who protest Israel or South Africa? No doubt. Will there even be racists among anti-racism ideologues - it's probably likely there's unconscious racism there as well.

In any case, if your ideology is meant to be an universal one, then it should be able to speak to all kinds of people - whether they're currently anti-Semites or Zionists, it shouldn't really matter if your ideology has a place for everyone, then in theory it should "work" for all of them - whether they're willing to listen is a different question, but minds are like hardware, and ideologies are like software. If your ideology can work by installing the same software everywhere, then it can be considered universal. If your ideology is "non-compatible with certain hardware" then it is not an universal ideology.

Personally I would say all "true" leftist ideologies must be universal or they can't be truly leftist, but I'm sure there are crazies that would disagree with that :lol:



I don't know, we should probably try to not attract antisemites to anti-Israel demonstrations.. you can surely see why that would be bad.

I mean, sure there is intersectionality across the ideological spectrum to a degree, but you don't want to attract people who are counter-productive to your cause.


We don't oppose Israel's actions because Israel is a jewish sate, we oppose Israel because its a militaristic imperialist state committing unspeakable atrocities and receives scant criticism for it on the political level.

We must oppose Israel as communists, as anarchists, etc, and thus oppose them from those perspectives. This is uncompromisable lest we risk losing control over our own movements or falling to sectarian fall-out of catastrophic proportions.

Besides, intersectionality with fascists has proven to be unworkable with radical animal rights movements throughout Europe.


this is why I wrote about similar argumentation lines between leftists and national socialists, thank you very much for ignoring it, I knew this would be happening.


Then you missed the crux of my argument to begin with, as Fourth Internationalist pointed out

[cyu]

we should probably try to not attract antisemites to anti-Israel demonstrations

Obviously you don't want them to use neo-Nazi propaganda in "your" demonstration, unless you're ready to challenge them. If you are able to engage those who show up in honest dialogue, and "convert" them away from neo-Nazi ideology, then that would be better than simply ignoring them or trying to keep that out. Not easy to do of course, and some people are better than others at doing so - might take a certain personality type.

http://www.amazon.de/Klan-destine-Relationships-Black-Mans-Odyssey/dp/1901250504

[Illegalitarian]

Obviously you don't want them to use neo-Nazi propaganda in "your" demonstration, unless you're ready to challenge them. If you are able to engage those who show up in honest dialogue, and "convert" them away from neo-Nazi ideology, then that would be better than simply ignoring them or trying to keep that out. Not easy to do of course, and some people are better than others at doing so - might take a certain personality type.

http://www.amazon.de/Klan-destine-Relationships-Black-Mans-Odyssey/dp/1901250504


I am not trying to sound paternalistic of condescending, but have you ever come in contact with neo-nazi activists? If there's anything at all I could tell you about them, it's that they do not have a penchant for "honest dialogue" and sure as heck aren't the open-minded types that just abandon their ideas on the spot.



Direct Action isn't an exercise in intellectual dialogue or debate, that defeats the purpose in the context of engaging those we have issues with.

No platform for fascists.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

https://archive.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1386/80/1386800038172.jpg

you've never been at a Pro Palestine demonstration, right?

http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/wp-content/uploads/Anti-Israel-Demo.Stuttgart.25.07.14.Plakat.juedische.Medien.kl ein_.jpg

[translated: Where are CNN, BBC, etc? Oh yeah, they're provided with Jewish money, that's why they're not allowed to talk about the terror of the Jewish state]

look at this sweetheart

http://i2.wp.com/www.publikative.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/10495378_764357190252128_3940279096836753631_o.jpg

a real freedom fighter and legitimate critic of Israel, right?

http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/wp-content/uploads/Anti-Israel-Demo.Stuttgart.25.07.14.Plakat.Stuermer-Karikaturen.klein_.b.jpg

oh look, a Jew with a crooked nose!

you will find pictures like these extremely regularly at such demos, and even the people saying "it's just about zionism" won't take a stand against them. Such people are at least accepted at such events, sometimes even desired. And don't forget about slogans like "Jew Jew coward pig, come on over and fight alone" (translated from German, so there's no rhyme in it). This is the reality on German streets, taking place at the majority of demonstrations.

you will find the equation "money, capital, global supremacy, control of media = Israel/Jews" among the left as well as the right, this is why they even go together to these demonstrations. Jews are a VERY easy bogeyman that everyone can agree on, even if the argumentation may differ. But, well, sometimes the argumentation doesn't differ that heavily when you look how leftists and national socialists define corporation, capitalism, the difference between "schaffendes" (hard-working, honest people) and "raffendes" (dishonest people that work with money, guess who used to work with money because they weren't allowed to do anything else?) Kapital...there a a lot of intersections between this very simplified capitalism critic. Yeah, they call it all Zionism, but when Zionism is presented as some jewish crooked-nosed octopus that is going to take over the world and destroy all the honest, innocent, hard-working people...do the math, goddamn.

Are you implying that BBC, CNN and the other major western television media outlets have given an objective perspective on the actions of the State of Israel? Laughable. As to why NATO countries give their people shit media coverage on not just the Palestinian conflict, the answers should be pretty clear for revolutionaries. Isolated little Israel's only ally is the United States, and the United States' only ally in the Middle East is Israel.

No doubt money flows in many currents and directions into many pockets. The only scrap of argumentation that the loser Anti-Deutsche have is that certain primitive and questionable elements among the "revolutionary" left, at certain demos, without any official platforms among the German left (unsurprisingly), try to harp on age old political biases against Jews. It wouldn't be surprising that most of these people turn out to be agent provocateurs trying to scare idealistic leftists and people like Rosa Partizan away from engaging with organization.

To create a whole reactionary tendency condemning fucking losers at best or random agent provocateurs who have no chance to gain authority within the revolutionary workers movement with pseudo-racist baiting, is idiotic and demonstrates childishness.

While the pro-Israel idiocy among a few youth is a reactionary mess that has to be condemned, it's true that the reign of Nazism left its mark. Many German people hold anti-semitic sentiments (my own cop father one of the "passive", i.e. cowardly kind in fact), some workers too, and this has to be handled as unacceptable among us. Hysterical reaction to primitive sentiment which exists among some working people, however, is even more dangerous to forging the class movement.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

No, Netanyahu and all these ultraconservatives blow ass, and I wrote that like a 100 times.

Oh, ok, good. that's reassuring.

[Martin Luther]

George Bush and those neocons suck but when we elect a democrat American imperialism will be nicer

[cyu]

If there's anything at all I could tell you about them, it's that they do not have a penchant for "honest dialogue" and sure as heck aren't the open-minded types that just abandon their ideas on the spot.


Obviously it won't be easy - and if they're at an explicitly neo-Nazi march, it's probably even more unlikely. That's why I included a link to Daryl Davis - if the stories are to be believed, he's a black guy who went and talked to various members of the KKK and eventually got them to leave the KKK. Do I have too much faith in humanity to believe that's possible? Should we abandon utopian idealism and just kill people who disagree?

[Slavic]

George Bush and those neocons suck but when we elect a democrat American imperialism will be nicer

How does any of this relate to the discussion.

Anyways,

I understand the concern over antisemitism actions within leftist organizations and demos, what I don't understand is the Anti-German response to it.

Support Israeli State.

It just seem likes they are applying the same racism in the other direction. They claim that Israel is a special case since antisemites see Israel as a wholly Jewish state from which they direct their antisemitism. The Anti-Germans then go and follow this exact line of reasoning, Israel as a wholly Jewish state, by supporting the Israeli state as opposed to the Jewish people.

"Protecting" the Israeli state from antisemites ackowledges the Israeli state as fundamentally Jewish, something that can be targeted by antisemites. Instead effort should be taken to divorce the State from the Jewish population in Israel, and protecting the Jewish population from antisemites.

You wouldn't find an American leftists supporting the US state to prevent antisemites attacking Jews in America.

[Illegalitarian]

I think around half of Israel identifies as "secular humanist" or some such as their "religious affiliation", so equating Israel to judaism or jews is just as fallacious as the "this is GODS COUNTRY" argument made by the christian right in America.

[Rurkel]

If they aren't Arabs/Palestinians, these "secular humanists" are still very likely to identify as Jews, it's a weird ethnicity-cum-religion thingy.