Hong Kong Protests

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Massive movement emerges in Hong Kong ever since the Chinese Government declared that all candidates in the next elections had to be approved by a committee. Estimates up to 100,000 in Central and around 80,000 in Mong Kok in Kowloon.


Hong Kong protests: Thousands defy calls to go home

Protests in Hong Kong are continuing after tens of thousands of people defied calls for them to dismantle their camps and return home.

Demonstrations grew after police tried to disperse crowds using batons and tear gas in the early hours of Monday morning. Riot police later withdrew.

The pro-democracy protesters are angry at China for limiting their choice in Hong Kong's 2017 leadership elections.

China has warned other countries not to support the "illegal rallies".

The protesters - a mix of students and members of the Occupy Central civil disobedience movement - want Beijing to abandon its plans to vet candidates for the post of chief executive in the 2017 polls.

They want a free choice of candidates. Until now the chief executive has essentially been selected under a pro-Beijing mechanism.

more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-29418179

Some pictures:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/p480x480/1907796_10152827975347448_7764970484416121647_n.jp g?oh=cfcc7262b445b2b0c6583805a7b860b6&oe=54C22A3D&__gda__=1422477873_5d224946f785450256da4a01965cd71 f

https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10660236_352547874896143_4054017284590114300_n.jpg ?oh=0d0a1ef0515e4c5f2ebf72ff48ba0af6&oe=5488F029

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1601029_10152828481737448_4905677410360709777_n.jp g?oh=bcd702c6e77049d3b21883bd7cdfcc80&oe=54C6A456&__gda__=1418165308_1a07d30774f1a61188f55638401ec7c d

[Arlekino]

Just for interest who is behind of this protest.

[Arlekino]

I smell nasty prodemocrasy protest. Is another HK Maidan so fuck them if is true.

[Blake's Baby]

I think it's interesting that western media (like the BBC) is all over this like a rash, as they often are with 'pro-democracy' protests, especially in countries that are 'undemocratic' or have a 'poor human rights record' but they don't report the massive waves of actual workers' strikes that have been sweeping China recently (for instance the strikes reported here - http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201404/9720/class-struggle-china ).

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Some of the reports from the ground indicated that the numbers at the protests swelled around the time workers would usually be finishing for the day which is interesting as it gives a certain glimpse into the politicisation of the working class in the city who pretty much finished work and then joined the protests. But, yes, there's definitely a different character between democratic demands and class demands which the capitalist media selectively self-censors. I think as well as suppressing the news about class struggle, I think it also suggests that the people in Hong Kong have a legitimate reason to protest (limited in frame to voting rights) whereas people in the west don't have a legitimate reason (since we already have voting rights, "at least we're not living in a dictatorship like China" sort of bullshit etc).

[Red Commissar]

I think it's interesting that western media (like the BBC) is all over this like a rash, as they often are with 'pro-democracy' protests, especially in countries that are 'undemocratic' or have a 'poor human rights record' but they don't report the massive waves of actual workers' strikes that have been sweeping China recently (for instance the strikes reported here - http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201404/9720/class-struggle-china ).

I guess it helps that they have access to a wealth of media posted online by the attendees (pictures and videos always catch attention), as well as PR campaigns by the organizers running the show. A lot of more spontaneous protests such as the worker struggles in China itself get ignored because the strikers don't have the time to post things on the internet right away or in large amounts (for obvious reasons) and as you allude it does not fit neatly into the easy narrative the media want to present.

Truthfully though I've noticed this coming up on the news for the past month, I've not really paid much attention to this being occupied by other events, so I hope I can get some informative posts here from those in the know.

[Martin Luther]

Basically, there are two distinct protest movements on the rise around the world.

The first is made of the liberal civil society protests closely linked to NGOs and western backed student movements. This is responsible for the 'color revolutions' like the Orange 'revolution' and Maidan in Ukraine. These are the darlings of the western media and get tons of positive attention.

The second is made up of spontaneous movements of working class people of all ages, as well as other youth and students, which start as struggles against some regional or national grievance. The Chinese strikes, the Spanish indignados, and the Chilean student movement are examples of this. The Arab Spring started as this but became more like the first kind as demands were contained by the political actors which rose on its back.

From everything that has been said, it looks like both are represented in the Hong Kong protests, though the former is obviously leading. It has clearly been buoyed by anger with conditions in general in Hong Kong.

Color revolutionaries have been building an anti-China student movement in Hong Kong for a long time in anticipation of an opportunity like this. The purpose is to put social pressure on China as a part of the US's strategy to impede its rise as an imperialist power.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

http://media.chinaworker.info/2014/09/10423715_843066982372163_5098184072090820824_n-600x450.jpg
Occupy Mong Kok in Kowloon

http://media.chinaworker.info/2014/09/Playground-strike-600x467.jpg
School sit-in strike

From reading reports from the ground, there was a week long student strike with around 13,000 students both from the universities and as young as 12-13 starting from the 22nd September. These students broke through cordoned off areas to demonstrate in Hong Kong Central, the banking sector, on Friday 27th and the news of this, plus the harsh police crackdown, spread to workers and youth throughout the city with the largest mobilisations occurring on Sunday with up to 120,000 assembling in Central.

Occupy Central, who hadn't been involved in organising the student strike, somewhat claimed the protests as their own making and are now calling for the demonstrations to end on the 1st October to make way for negotiations. When Benny Tai Yiu-ting, one of the leaders of Occupy Central, arrived at the protest after two days of a stand-off with the police some of the people assembled booed him during a speech. And the bourgeois opposition parties are similarly claiming to be an integral part in the demonstrations despite not actually having a presence on the ground and there being a largely 'anti-party' sentiment amongst the participants. But the protests are largely decentralised without a central leadership and mostly have been spontaneous without any real input from any of these organisation.

Out of the movement, over two hundred workers at Swire Beverage (coca-cola bottling company) and most of the academic staff of the city have gone on strike to call for the city leadership to step down. Other strikes including bus drivers, water workers and even bank employees have been reported.

[Palmares]

It's all pretty interesting stuff.

What I wonder though, from anyone who has a good grasp of the history and context of Hong Kong: what happens next? This is evidently a very significant peaceful (thus far at least) protest. It's definitely a great opportunity for the people of HK, but obviously difficult for the power brokers in Beijing.

What will be the outcome? Will there be an outcome?

[Martin Luther]

If this goes on at this level (or if it grows) it's easy to imagine it turning into a Prague 1968 situation for China. The elites on both sides of the HK-PRC border are demanding a resolution to the situation.

For a really good overview of the situation: counterpunch. org/2014/09/30/hong-kongs-fight-against-neoliberalism/

[Blake's Baby]

Or, you know, Tiananmen Square. The Chinese state doesn't really have a particularly fluffy record in dealing with people it sees as foreign agents and agitators. It's already told other countries (I guess aimed at US and UK in particular) to back off.

[Red Terror Dr.]

This is great because this is going to spread everywhere. We are all connected.

[Atsumari]

Just for interest who is behind of this protest.
That comment reminds me of the wingnuts who talk about George Soros whenever an anti-government protest arises.


I smell nasty prodemocrasy protest. Is another HK Maidan so fuck them if is true.
I do not have to be a pro-Soviet dog to realize that the U.S. government in the 1960s and 70s are brutal and must be held accountable for such actions.

[RedHal]

The mentality of some of the middle-upper middle class protestors. Just a bunch of white surpremacists, calling for the heroic return of their white colonial masters.
http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/384791/hong-kong-protest.jpg

[Slavic]

The mentality of some of the middle-upper middle class protestors. Just a bunch of white surpremacists, calling for the heroic return of their white colonial masters.

Where are these white people you are talking about?

Also what makes a white colonial master any different than a Chinese colonial master?

[Blake's Baby]

RedHal didn't say they were white, just white supremacists.

The white people are in London, laughing over the fact they didn't have to give 8 million Chinese-looking people British passports in the 1980s.

[Atsumari]

The mentality of some of the middle-upper middle class protestors. Just a bunch of white surpremacists, calling for the heroic return of their white colonial masters.
http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/384791/hong-kong-protest.jpg
I am always amazed at "leftists" who are so ready to defend a nation that is so capitalist that it makes America appear red just because they are not Western and they had a history of being communist.
This reminds me of the anti-fascists defending Putin and the pro-Russian rebels or even worse, North Korea.

[ckaihatsu]

Support democracy in Hong Kong


Dear ,

For the last days, tens of thousands of people have taken to the streets in Hong Kong to ask for a democratic election process. The protests were sparked by China's insistence that candidates for a 2017 election in Hong Kong be screened by Chinese authorities, even though residents in Hong Kong had been promised that they would be able to freely elect their leaders when the United Kingdom gave control over the territory to China in 1997.

On 28 September the Hong Kong government deployed anti-riot police and fired tear gas at tens of thousands of peaceful protesters. The Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions has subsequently called on the international community to support democracy in Hong Kong and send protest letters to Chinese President Xi Jinping and Hong Kong Chief Executive Leung Chun Ying.

To do so, please click the red "Act now" button below and sign the petition! Thank you for your support.


Dominique Marlet
Human and Trade Union Rights Unit
Education International


http://news.ei-ie.org/interspire/link.php?M=46203&N=386&L=1149&F=H


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[RedHal]

I am always amazed at "leftists" who are so ready to defend a nation that is so capitalist that it makes America appear red just because they are not Western and they had a history of being communist.
This reminds me of the anti-fascists defending Putin and the pro-Russian rebels or even worse, North Korea.

Who Says I'm defending China, just showing the warped mentality of some of these middle class Hong Kongers, trust me I know a few. They look at mainland Chinese as below them, to call them Chinese is like calling a black person the N word. You don't have to be white to be a white supremacist. Hong Kong is just as capitalist as China,so why are "leftists" throwing in their support for these protests? Class issues have been totally absent, they are only calling for the ability to choose their bourgeois masters without having prior approval from Beijing.

[VivalaCuarta]

Aren't these protests demanding the legalization of bourgeois parties?

Why shouldn't a workers state ban bourgeois parties? Why should leftists support another Color Revolution?

[RedHal]

Aren't these protests demanding the legalization of bourgeois parties?

Why shouldn't a workers state ban bourgeois parties? Why should leftists support another Color Revolution?

cuz DEEEEMOOOOCCCRRRACCCY Baby! and it's against the big bad Chinese!

[Atsumari]

cuz DEEEEMOOOOCCCRRRACCCY Baby! and it's against the big bad Chinese!
Well they are big and bad and pose a bigger threat to the world than Western neo-liberalism but that is a for a different thread.

But to give some facts about Hong Kong, it is a region with the highest inequality of wealth in the developed world, an issue being ignored by the protesters in favor for constitutional reform. The ideologies of the opposition vary from Rawlsian liberalism, to the liberalism of Hayek, and even social democracy but we can probably count on a liberalism to be the dominating ideology should the protesters succeed, just like in Euromaidan.
However, there are left wing parties who are interested in the welfare of the working class, most notably the Trotskyist Leung Kwok-hung of the April Fifth Action and League of Social Democrats. If I had to explain the positions he represents, I would say it is rather similar to Eurocommunism meaning that he stresses a democratic revolution rather than a socialist revolution while keeping the militant language of traditional revolutionary leftists.
Unfortunately, the only Trotskyist trait that did not seem to leave the party is the issue with sectarianism as seen with the creation of the People Power party whose existence seems to be about being an opposition party towards the Democrats (main pro-democracy party) largely due to their complacency in the Five Constituencies Referendum which is I see as an act of betrayal towards the democracy movement. As of now, most of their actions include filibustering and nothing else really. Unfortunately, the People Power party is also infested with sectarianism and I would not be surprised if there was some shady shit going down there.
However, even with the good intentions of these leftist parties, there are hundreds of thousands of foreign workers (largely Filipino) who will have no democracy whether the pro-Beijing or pro-Democracy camp wins.
And to explain the pro-Beijing camp, all I have to say is that they are like our Republicans, especially the Liberal Party. Remember that Hong Kong is ranked number one alongside with Singapore for consistently for having the most economic "freedom" and it would not have been possible without the help of the pro-Beijing camp who once called themselves the "Conservative camp" before.
And if you tankies wanna have a big evil fascist party to blow things out of proportion, check these guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_Democrats) out


Who Says I'm defending China, just showing the warped mentality of some of these middle class Hong Kongers, trust me I know a few. They look at mainland Chinese as below them, to call them Chinese is like calling a black person the N word. You don't have to be white to be a white supremacist. Hong Kong is just as capitalist as China,so why are "leftists" throwing in their support for these protests? Class issues have been totally absent, they are only calling for the ability to choose their bourgeois masters without having prior approval from Beijing.
Awwww, those poor Mainland Chinese being oppressed by those big bad Hong Kongers like the blacks here. Please do not take a small portion of the protesters to try to push an agenda, that is what Fox did to us during Occupy. As for me, I do not support the protesters, but I think it is very important to try to understand why these protests arise instead of talking of white supremacy or imperialism.
If you want to talk about oppressed minorities in China, then speak for the Uighur or Tibetan population before you talk about oppression of the Mainland which is just as absurd as talking about Europeans oppressing America and relating our experience to disenfranchised minorities when they talk shit about us.
Also, I know these people who talk shit about China, I work with them in the restaurant every day. However, when talking about Asian racism and backwards nationalism, we must make a huge distinction between the oppression of Koreans in Japan and geo-politics with powerful players on every side.

[John Nada]

Aren't these protests demanding the legalization of bourgeois parties?

Why shouldn't a workers bourgeois state ban bourgeois parties? Why should leftistsliberals support another Color Revolution?Fixed. Capitalism was restored just like Russia. They let billionaires into the Party, among other things. DPRK and Venezuela are probably closer to the socialist path than China is now(that's not a complement to the former).

I'd like to think that there's at least some Marxist in a united front there, but it's probably just like Ukraine and Thailand.:( Still, a lot of the tactics in these reactionary protest are interesting.
And if you tankies wanna have a big evil fascist party to blow things out of proportion, check these guys outLOL, there's a party named LSD.:laugh:

[Per Levy]

Why shouldn't a workers state ban bourgeois parties?

china, a workers state? i heard that joke before but it just aint funny.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

18 hour work days are the hallmark of a worker's state you reactionary.

[Sasha]

why am i humming "holiday in Cambodia" every time i read this thread?

1Rm-Fu8rBms

[Palmares]

why am i humming "holiday in Cambodia" every time i read this thread?

1Rm-Fu8rBms

I think you're actually thinking of Australia's refugee resettlement policy...

[Red Banana]

Why shouldn't a workers state ban bourgeois parties?

Because then they'd have to ban the CCP too.

[Tim Cornelis]

It's funny when ideologies 'self-refute' by pushing their premises to their absurd conclusions. Anarcho-capitalists do this by defending debt slavery in the name of freedom, Trotskyists do this by maintaining China, etc., are (degenerated/deformed) workers' states still. Unfortunately, they themselves don't realise how contradictory this is.

[ckaihatsu]

It's funny when ideologies 'self-refute' by pushing their premises to their absurd conclusions. Anarcho-capitalists do this by defending debt slavery in the name of freedom,




Trotskyists do this by maintaining China, etc., are (degenerated/deformed) workers' states still. Unfortunately, they themselves don't realise how contradictory this is.


My understanding is that China is seen in *geopolitical* terms as a *bulwark* against further Western imperialism, so then its domestic interests tend to be favored against incursions from nominally 'democratic' movements. (Tiananmen Square '89, Hong Kong today.)

[Art Vandelay]

It's funny when ideologies 'self-refute' by pushing their premises to their absurd conclusions. Anarcho-capitalists do this by defending debt slavery in the name of freedom, Trotskyists do this by maintaining China, etc., are (degenerated/deformed) workers' states still. Unfortunately, they themselves don't realise how contradictory this is.

No trotskyists claim that China is a degenerated workers state, which is itself nothing of a 'contridictory' concept.

[Tim Cornelis]

No trotskyists claim that China is a degenerated workers state, which is itself nothing of a 'contridictory' concept.

"Trotskyists do this by maintaining China, etc., are (degenerated/deformed) workers' states"

"China, etc." and "/deformed" "states" (plural)

And yes, the concept of deformed/degenerated workers' states is contradictory. In a workers' state, the revolutionary working class is the ruling class. In degenerated and deformed workers' state the working class is not the ruling class, and hence they are not workers' states.

The concept of deformed/degenerated workers' states rest on a misconception of property relations, which are thought of as preceding production relations. A misconception common in Lenin's and Trotsky's texts. They wrongly reason that since property is nationalised, the bourgeoisie is removed -- while it is merely replaced.

And of course, this misconception leads to all kinds of absurdities including referring to China, Myanmar, and Syria as workers' states.

[Art Vandelay]

"Trotskyists do this by maintaining China, etc., are (degenerated/deformed) workers' states"

"China, etc." and "/deformed" "states" (plural)

And yes, the concept of deformed/degenerated workers' states is contradictory. In a workers' state, the revolutionary working class is the ruling class. In degenerated and deformed workers' state the working class is not the ruling class, and hence they are not workers' states.

The concept of deformed/degenerated workers' states rest on a misconception of property relations, which are thought of as preceding production relations. A misconception common in Lenin's and Trotsky's texts. They wrongly reason that since property is nationalised, the bourgeoisie is removed -- while it is merely replaced.

And of course, this misconception leads to all kinds of absurdities including referring to China, Myanmar, and Syria as workers' states.

Well if you'd like to discuss the concept of a degenerated workers state, I'd be more than interested in doing so in a separate thread. Needless to say, I disagree with a lot of your analysis. Having said that, it's off topic as far as this thread is concerned.

Anyways, my point was that you conflated the theories of degenerated workers states and deformed workers states, when you said:

Trotskyists do this by maintaining China, etc., are (degenerated/deformed) workers' states still.

The two concepts are qualitatively different and no trotskyists refer to China as a degenerated workers state, which is why I felt it somewhat muddied the waters when you included the term in your comment.

[Sharia Lawn]

Aren't these protests demanding the legalization of bourgeois parties?

Why shouldn't a workers state ban bourgeois parties? Why should leftists support another Color Revolution?

Let it never again be said on this forum again that definitional or historical debates over what a workers' state is are insular leftist hairsplitting. If you think China is a workers' state of some sort, it makes perfect sense to stand shoulder to shoulder with comrade Xi Jinping's military and police forces as they squash hundreds of thousands of students who have the temerity to want something as worthless as bourgeois-democratic rights. (After all, they aren't led by Marxists calling for the political revolution of the masses.)

If you don't, you'll probably side with the students.

[VivalaCuarta]

Bourgeois democratic rights for who? For the bourgeoisie.

Once again the social democrats enlist for the counterrevolution.

[Sharia Lawn]

Bourgeois democratic rights for who? For the bourgeoisie.

Once again the social democrats enlist for the counterrevolution.

Only a relevant point if you think China is a workers' state. For more on this, see above post.

[Blake's Baby]

Yeah, some of us are pretty convinced that the counter-revolution happened in April 1927, while Mao Zedong was busy writing reports on agriculture for the KMT.

[Rafiq]

I think it's interesting that western media (like the BBC) is all over this like a rash, as they often are with 'pro-democracy' protests, especially in countries that are 'undemocratic' or have a 'poor human rights record' but they don't report the massive waves of actual workers' strikes that have been sweeping China recently (for instance the strikes reported here - http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201404/9720/class-struggle-china ).

And why? Because such strikes threaten the very balance of bourgeois politics in the west, which as far as labor is concerned - is based on the false premise that more labor rights, better pay and better working conditions will drive manufacturing jobs to places like China. What the fuck do they have to say for themselves when the Chinese demand the same thing? Nothing.

[Thirsty Crow]

Why shouldn't a workers state ban bourgeois parties? Why should leftists support another Color Revolution?
Is this some kind of a rhetorical question inviting wild hypothetical case scenario of the current Chinese state being something other than a capitalist state?


And why? Because such strikes threaten the very balance of bourgeois politics in the west, which as far as labor is concerned - is based on the false premise that more labor rights, better pay and better working conditions will drive manufacturing jobs to places like China. What the fuck do they have to say for themselves when the Chinese demand the same thing? Nothing.Precisely this is the case especially in lesser developed EU countries for instance where the specter of cheap* "third world" labor looms large whenever working class issues are raised in a serious way.

EDIT: it is also worthwhile to note that it's not that, in this case, Chinese labor is portrayed as only cheap, but more importantly - as completely docile.

[Rafiq]

China's ideological and political interests are reactionary and have been reactionary since the cold war. This is inarguable. China is a global force of reactionary capitalism.

On the other hand, pro democracy protest movements led by petty bourgeois scum a la Venezuela are viciously reactionary, hypocritical and politically detestable. Since the collapse of the socialist bloc, "pro democratic reform" has become a caravan of worthless liberal ideas like "economic freedom". The call for human rights are hypocritical at their core. I do not know the situation in Hong Kong, but it sounds all too familiar. The word democracy has become rather meaningless in this context: Not that their aims are worse, or on paper more reactionary than the rule of the Chinese state - but their opposition, as it is in Venezuela is opposable and reactionary in NATURE.

Needless there is an element in these kinds of protests which genuinely represents the economic frustrations of the common worker, it is simply wrongfully associated (ideologically) with notions of "economic freedom" and a "big bad over reaching state". Lenin knew this well even in his time - false consciousness is the utilization of the proletarian frustrated, fighting spirit for aims dependent on those of another class. The revocation of "social justice", or other petty worker based sentiments from democratic movements has led to a vile bastard of history - "color" revolutions.

But make no mistake, it is important not to be on the wrong side. The immediate frustrations are genuine - their expression is viciously reactionary. Recall that after the color revolutions in the Eastern Bloc, many of its usurping participants were immensely disappointed and felt manipulated into thinking the liberal dream was a real solution to their problems. Evidently, calls for "human rights" and "democracy" without challenging the conditions by which they are not granted is a futile cause. It would be ideal for these kinds of movements to be hijacked by taking their logic and making them applicable to social issues to expose class lines. Turn the logic of the liberal scum against the authors themselves! We oppose liberalism, but not from the palaces of kings.

So long as reactionary class elements persist in these kinds of protests, they cannot be blindly backed - people are protesting against what? In the name of what? What are the implications? That's the question. Today you either have blind economic struggles, or groundless political struggles. Only their absolute merger into a whole will pose a threat to our enemies.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yeah most of the feelings in such movements are genuine, I think, and probably have some kind of legitimacy. No one really likes corruption for instance, so protests that seek to reform government and "do away with corruption", while we can look at that through a cynical (and realistic) lense, that's not really born out of malicious intent. In huge street demos involving tens or hundreds of thousands of people, you're obviously going to have a wide range of opinions, most of which leftists would view with skepticism at the very least, but I also think there's a really dumb trend among some leftists of using the following formula to render down any protest movement into the crudest possible stereotype: 1) find out what side of whatever conflict the USA would support, 2) find the most extreme, crazed and malicious faction of that side (ie Salafi jihadists, Neo-Nazis, etc), and 3) paint that faction as the dominant, driving force in the movement.

That results in a pretty simple picture of events but it doesn't really say anything interesting at all about the nature of the conflict, or why a huge number of people have decided to suspend their lives in order to go out and throw rocks at the police or whatever. It all just gets rendered down to, "look at these bad people doing bad things over here."

[Martin Luther]

Yeah most of the feelings in such movements are genuine, I think, and probably have some kind of legitimacy. No one really likes corruption for instance, so protests that seek to reform government and "do away with corruption", while we can look at that through a cynical (and realistic) lense, that's not really born out of malicious intent. In huge street demos involving tens or hundreds of thousands of people, you're obviously going to have a wide range of opinions, most of which leftists would view with skepticism at the very least, but I also think there's a really dumb trend among some leftists of using the following formula to render down any protest movement into the crudest possible stereotype: 1) find out what side of whatever conflict the USA would support, 2) find the most extreme, crazed and malicious faction of that side (ie Salafi jihadists, Neo-Nazis, etc), and 3) paint that faction as the dominant, driving force in the movement.

That results in a pretty simple picture of events but it doesn't really say anything interesting at all about the nature of the conflict, or why a huge number of people have decided to suspend their lives in order to go out and throw rocks at the police or whatever. It all just gets rendered down to, "look at these bad people doing bad things over here."


It's true that its too easy to oversimplify things. But we live in the real world where the most vile, reactionary forces are often the best organized forces on the ground and are thus able to take a huge degree of leadership of movements, spontaneous or not, with little to no progressive content. We also live in a world where the supreme superpower uses dissent and discontent as a weapon against its opponents. The most basic principle of anti-imperialism is to oppose all of the wars and machinations of the imperialist state, and the tendency to oversimplify and take sides flows logically from this. But this isn't a bad thing, since after all, it's not the details that make history.

[Martin Luther]

The mentality of some of the middle-upper middle class protestors. Just a bunch of white surpremacists, calling for the heroic return of their white colonial masters.
http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/384791/hong-kong-protest.jpg


Lol, this is the kind of shit that makes me want to go full on tankie.

[Sasha]

Lol, this is the kind of shit that makes me want to go full on tankie.

So you can stand around with obsolete and reactionary nationalist flags and a nonsensical banner with token platitudes about colonists needing to get out too?

[Martin Luther]

The difference is that I'd also wear my Mao suit and hold a little red book.

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

I don't think this is a question of the class character of the P.R.C., which, honestly, is an issue about which I'm undecided. It's a question of the class character of these protests.

It's easy to say that because "the people" are protesting this is a proletarian action. But I need to get more information about this, particularly as regards who is organizing these protests and who stands to gain from them in what ways.

[Blake's Baby]

So you can stand around with obsolete and reactionary nationalist flags and a nonsensical banner with token platitudes about colonists needing to get out too?

It's funny that people do that isn't it?

By funny I mean really depressing.

[ckaihatsu]

http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/1042.php

[ckaihatsu]

Hong Kong democracy protests grow in the face of repression and threats - Support the HKCTU!

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/e788a43ccacc225abf8e6e748/images/3138a61d-910a-4bdf-ac1b-8386cdc93cb6.jpg

Mass actions for democracy in Hong Kong continue to gather force as hundreds of thousands of people demanding genuine universal suffrage again fill the streets. Coca-Cola workers, education workers and dockers affiliated to the Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions, the only independent union in China, held a one-day solidarity strike on September 29, and the confederation is actively supporting the protests. The HKCTU is requesting international union support.

If you have not yet had a chance to show your support, please take a moment to CLICK HERE (http://iuf.us6.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=e788a43ccacc225abf8e6e748&id=90c72bff71&e=090f0b0646) to send a message to Hong Kong's Chief Executive.

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[Tim Cornelis]

I don't think this is a question of the class character of the P.R.C., which, honestly, is an issue about which I'm undecided. It's a question of the class character of these protests.

It's easy to say that because "the people" are protesting this is a proletarian action. But I need to get more information about this, particularly as regards who is organizing these protests and who stands to gain from them in what ways.

I don't understand how anyone can be undecided about the class character of the PRC, it is indisputably bourgeois. And I don't think anyone is under the illusion that these protests have a proletarian class character. Nevertheless, rallying behind the struggle for liberal democracy when socialism is out of reach can be beneficial. By guaranteeing a degree of civil liberties, socialists are accorded the freedom to organise.

[Hrafn]

How much socialist organizing can take place in China, versus in Hong Kong, eh?

[Tim Cornelis]

?

[Hrafn]

I'm supporting your point, Tim.

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

To Tim Cornelis,

Excuse me, but if you don't understand how someone can still have questions about the class character of the P.R.C., then you're unable to help anyone who is uncertain reach an informed conclusion. I don't mean this as an insult to you or your intelligence; there's no helping someone if you don't know where they are in their development.

Telling me the class character of the P.R.C. is "indisputably" bourgeois doesn't help me, either, precisely because I've observed disputes about it. None of this is intended as a challenge of your assessment of China as a bourgeois state. It's that your response didn't give me any new information, so I'm no closer to an informed stance on China as I was before you posted.

[Rafiq]

I don't understand how anyone can be undecided about the class character of the PRC, it is indisputably bourgeois. And I don't think anyone is under the illusion that these protests have a proletarian class character. Nevertheless, rallying behind the struggle for liberal democracy when socialism is out of reach can be beneficial. By guaranteeing a degree of civil liberties, socialists are accorded the freedom to organise.

I don't think anyone truthfully, personally believes that the PRC is actually a worker's state. They espouse this kind of rhetoric, because there are still Trotskyist organizations that officially categorize China as a (deformed) worker's state. Take the Sparts for example.

[Devrim]

Mass actions for democracy in Hong Kong continue to gather force as hundreds of thousands of people demanding genuine universal suffrage again fill the streets. Coca-Cola workers, education workers and dockers affiliated to the Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions, the only independent union in China, held a one-day solidarity strike on September 29, and the confederation is actively supporting the protests. The HKCTU is requesting international union support.

As I understand it this union called a one day strike on a public holiday when nobody was working anyway, and then claimed that 10,000 people didn't go to work.

Devrim

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

http://i.imgur.com/wXQHsnY.png

This is the daughter of the HK's glorious leader. All power to comrade Chai Yan Leung, we must protect the Chinese worker's state from western infiltration! No to democracy, now get back to work!!

[ckaihatsu]

As I understand it this union called a one day strike on a public holiday when nobody was working anyway, and then claimed that 10,000 people didn't go to work.

Devrim


Okay, noted.

We'll see where the politics of it all go from here.

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

I suppose if the Chinese state is bourgeois, then the Hong Kongese protesters aren't more likely to pursue a reactionary line than they would be had they lived outside the region. I can see a bourgeois state claiming that the capitalism allowed in the "special administrative region" influences the class character of the protests as justification for shutting down real worker action.

That smacks of fascism, made more insidious by the disguise of "socialism" extending beyond just the name of the party.

[ckaihatsu]

I suppose if the Chinese state is bourgeois, then the Hong Kongese protesters aren't more likely to pursue a reactionary line than they would be had they lived outside the region. I can see a bourgeois state claiming that the capitalism allowed in the "special administrative region" influences the class character of the protests as justification for shutting down real worker action.

That smacks of fascism, made more insidious by the disguise of "socialism" extending beyond just the name of the party.


The combination of accumulated idle wealth and worsening economic velocity really calls into question *all* rulerships, or bourgeois states.

The student protestors have the mildest and most benign of demands, and it's increasingly difficult for the authorities to muster any kind of argument *against* a mere matter of democratic-minded election procedure -- any aggressive response from the state just looks wholly unjustified and desperate. It reminds me of the civil rights struggles of the '60s in the U.S.

[DOOM]

This is the daughter of the HK's glorious leader. All power to comrade Chai Yan Leung, we must protect the Chinese worker's state from western infiltration! No to democracy, now get back to work!!

I'm really trying hard to not hold some stupid unjustified grudge and ressentiment against bourgies, but jesus fucking christ, what the fuck was she thinking? Is this for real?

[Martin Luther]

If anti-Midwesterner sentiment was the rallying point of protests in NYC, would demands about democracy be taken seriously?

But the migrants in question here are from big bad authoritarian China, so it's fine, and can even be ignored. After all, there are deeper forces at work.

Such is the role of the left in legitimizing liberalism and imperialism.

[ckaihatsu]

Strictly as a liberal reform movement there's nothing objectionable about it, as long as we keep in mind that it plays right into Hong Kong nationalism....

This is the part that so many find so offensive, because of interference from the mainland:





After popular election of one of the nominated candidates, the Chief Executive-elect "will have to be appointed by the Central People's Government." The process of forming the 2016 Legislative Council would be unchanged, but following the new process for the election of the Chief Executive, a new system to elect the Legislative Council via universal suffrage would be developed with the approval of Beijing.[16]




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests

[Martin Luther]

There's beginning to be a backlash against the protesters by locals as the protests dwindle.

[The Intransigent Faction]

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/10/04/hong_kong_protesters_stage_massive_defiant_rally.h tml

What Martin said. That, and according to some students, the state is using criminal gangs to intimidate protesters even as it presents itself as being conciliatory.

In any case:


“We are not seeking revolution. We just want democracy!” said Joshua Wong, a 17-year-old student leader.

:glare:

[Red Commissar]

So what's the progress with these guys? Did the wind go out of their sails completely after the confrontations over the weekend? The media carries statements from their different organizers saying that they are in talks with the government.

[renalenin]

I don't think this is a question of the class character of the P.R.C., which, honestly, is an issue about which I'm undecided. It's a question of the class character of these protests.

It's easy to say that because "the people" are protesting this is a proletarian action. But I need to get more information about this, particularly as regards who is organizing these protests and who stands to gain from them in what ways.

Thanks Toxin, I feel the same way. When the Occupy protests emerged in late 2011 outside the HSBC building it seemed to be at least partly anticapitalist, which was a good thing. But following Occupy Central this past year it has been looking very much like an organised 'Color Revolution'. Granted that the CCP has become a nest of oligarchs, the socialist system in PRC is still slightly better than the tendency in HK if they follow the trajectory of the Washington Consensus, which is what would develop if it is really a 'Color Revolution'.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

[mojo.rhythm]

Yahoo News (http://news.yahoo.com/hong-kong-protest-leaders-agree-talks-numbers-dwindle-045139669.html) has an update on the situation, comrades. It's not looking good...

[Martin Luther]

The clash with a few dozen local people seems to have been really demoralizing for some reason.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I don't think there was an anti-capitalist spirit with ows, aside from Oakland and isolated pcokets elsewhere. The fact is that this has followed almost exactly the same trajectory as ows. Starts off small, gains momentum due to botched responses of the authorities, then everyone else in the area gets sick of the disruption and wants it to end already. Its a tactic that doesn't work, it's flashy and gets attention, that's it. The results have been almost universal.

[ckaihatsu]

---





The large protests taking place now in Hong Kong reflect the fact that Hong Kong has become polarized between those supportive of the Peoples’ Republic of China and those mobilizing in opposition to it. There have, in fact, been dueling protests with pro-Beijing forces also mobilizing large numbers in opposition to Occupy Central earlier this year.

Although the opposition movement claims that its struggle for greater autonomy will automatically improve the notoriously terrible conditions of poor and working-class people in Hong Kong, it is a movement based in Hong Kong’s middle and upper-middle classes.

The U.S. State Department has been heavily involved behind-the-scenes in the “civil society” opposition trends within China including Hong Kong’s “pan-democratic” movement. Western-oriented liberal groups are clearly leading the Hong Kong opposition movement and their most significant challengers inside the movement come from the growing far-right anti-PRC trend.




http://www.liberationnews.org/hong-kong-crisis-analyzed-statement-central-committee-psl/

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I don't think there was an anti-capitalist spirit with ows, aside from Oakland and isolated pcokets elsewhere. The fact is that this has followed almost exactly the same trajectory as ows. Starts off small, gains momentum due to botched responses of the authorities, then everyone else in the area gets sick of the disruption and wants it to end already. Its a tactic that doesn't work, it's flashy and gets attention, that's it. The results have been almost universal.

OWS focused on the symptoms of Capitalism, not Capitalism itself. Outside of Oakland, at least ... (as you said), and some might say Seattle too.

[Sasha]

The results have been almost universal.


except egypt and a whole host of other places in the middle east, thailand and the ukraine (no matter what you might think of the outcome).
and even in the west and israel where occupy failed to get revolutionary momentum it did bring back radical direct action and civil disobedience as an non-parliamentary way off politics which has been absent since the early 90's in many places.

the winter palace doesnt have to be taken for a moment to be of revolutionary significance in the long haul

[Martin Luther]

So we're citing color revolutions and military coups as models for popular uprising.

No wonder the left is dead.

[Sasha]

We were discussing the tactic of occupy, even if you call them collour revolutions you still admit they where revolutionairy upheavels. Maybe revolutions you object too but radical transformations of the status quo non the less.
Which makes it worthwhile for us to study, for some to emulate but then in a better, more leftist way, and for some leftists in name only like you i guess to be able to counter them in the name of your specific my reactionary pollitcs are better than their reactionary kind of politics.

[Red Commissar]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/09/us-hongkong-china-idUSKCN0HX06R20141009


HONG KONG (Reuters) - Hong Kong called off talks with protesting students on Thursday, dealing a heavy blow to attempts to defuse a political crisis that has seen tens of thousands take to the streets to demand free elections and calling for leader Leung Chun-ying to resign.

The government's decision came as democratic lawmakers demanded anti-graft officers investigate a $6.4 million business payout to Leung while in office, as the political fallout from mass protests in the Chinese-controlled city spreads.

"Students' call for an expansion of an uncooperative movement has shaken the trust of the basis of our talks and it will be impossible to have a constructive dialogue," Chief Secretary Carrie Lam said on the eve of the planned dialogue.

She blamed the pull-out on students' unswerving demands for universal suffrage, which she said was not in accordance with the Asian financial centre's mini-constitution, the Basic Law, what she described as their illegal occupation of parts of the city and fresh calls for people to rally.

Student leaders accused the government of using petty excuses to derail the talks and called for more people to occupy the streets, after numbers fell significantly following mass rallies that saw police fire tear gas on the crowds.

And from Chinese media directly

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-10/09/c_133703032.htm


HONG KONG, Oct. 9 (Xinhua) -- Hong Kong government announced Thursday evening that it suspended formal meeting with representatives of students participating in the Occupy Central movement scheduled for Friday afternoon since student leaders called on more people to join the sit-in protest.

Carrie Lam, chief secretary of the region's government, told a press conference that student leaders' moves had undermined basis for a constructive dialogue and it would be impossible to have a constructive meeting on Friday.

After more than week-long demonstration which had paralyzed partial transport in the Asian financial hub, tensions had been reduced between the government and students who were discontent with an election reform package for choosing Hong Kong's next chief executive by universal suffrage.



Edit: Yes, I don't have a statement from the protestors themselves but that's because I can't seem to access their website.

[Geiseric]

We were discussing the tactic of occupy, even if you call them collour revolutions you still admit they where revolutionairy upheavels. Maybe revolutions you object too but radical transformations of the status quo non the less.
Which makes it worthwhile for us to study, for some to emulate but then in a better, more leftist way, and for some leftists in name only like you i guess to be able to counter them in the name of your specific my reactionary pollitcs are better than their reactionary kind of politics.

Umm how, at all, has the status quo changed in either egypt or ukraine? You're ignoring that the reactionary MB and Right Sector mutilated all of the people who wanted it to be done in a "more leftist way".

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

except egypt and a whole host of other places in the middle east, thailand and the ukraine (no matter what you might think of the outcome).
and even in the west and israel where occupy failed to get revolutionary momentum it did bring back radical direct action and civil disobedience as an non-parliamentary way off politics which has been absent since the early 90's in many places.

the winter palace doesnt have to be taken for a moment to be of revolutionary significance in the long haul

Yeah I wanted to address those in a follow up post but didn't get a chance. The successful, for lack of a better word, occupy events have all lead to a civil war of one kind or another. That in itself would be a mark in it's favor, obviously civil war for us is inevitable. The problem is that in those instances there have not been clear sides due to the inclusiveness of the tactic. Any asshole can come in and hijack the chaos that has been unleashed, bourgeois Islamists, salafists, fascists, or just run of the mill liberals who really aren't ready to fight a civil war, or at least not the kind you and I are looking for. The fact that these features repeat over and over again should tell us something. The tactic works in the sense of what it can unleash, but something is clearly missing, the tactic is incomplete at this stage. Something has to follow it and so far no one has figured out what.

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

To Ethics Gradient,

I agree that this tactic is incomplete, although I disagree, emphatically, that no one has figured out a good way to complete it. I concede, though, if what you were saying was that this specific tactic in modern times hasn't been development to completion.

The problem has to do with their being no clear-cut sides in the conflict produced by this tactic. In other words, there's no clear class character. Since workers do tend to internalize bourgeois values, they can act in the interest of the bourgeoisie even as they attempt to struggle for their rights. The natural impulse is to serve one's own class, but bourgeois hegemony sustains narratives that promote class collaboration, that make workers think their best interests are aligned with the interests of, say, free enterprise or an Islamic state or the new military junta that, we swear, will totally be democratic this time, you guys.

What completes this tactic is a good, heaping helping of class consciousness, but that's a lot easier said than done. That takes a lot of work in going out to organize the workers to struggle for better conditions, etc., and helping cultivate that consciousness through real-world struggle rather than lectures on theory.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I suppose the lack of a class character could be one way to put it, but who is going to organize it? Inevitably the answer ends up being one cadre formation or another, which if that's the case puts you in the same position of the other hijackers. Occupy takes hold and becomes difficult to crush due to it's organic and horizontal nature, it then falls apart or is perverted for the same reasons. I don't think there's a clear answer, a different conception of organization is needed all together.

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

The unfortunate thing about calling for an utterly new conceptualization of organization is that it's a lot like trying to come up with a brand new concept in mathematics. The proletariat don't really have the non-Euclidean luxury of spending decades tirelessly theorizing.

Then again, I only mean that in the sense of waiting to stumble on something brand new rather than shifting our way of looking at modes of organization that already exist. The labels "horizontal" and "organic" may not even be useful. As you said, a "cadre" formation is analogous to the operation of "hijackers," while the "horizontal, organic" formation is susceptible to the same. Given that proletarian struggle doesn't arise in a vacuum and it seems to be just as vulnerable to hijacking whether "horizontal" or "vertical," I don't think there is any practical difference between "cadre" struggle and "organic" struggle.

The thing is that the purpose of organization is to unite the working class that they may end their oppression. This is why I first suggested that the class conscious among the working class need to do work in getting their fellow workers to help in the fight for higher wages, better conditions, pretty much standard union fare. In the workplace, organization could easily be described as "horizontal." The mistake, though, is in romanticizing this "directional" organization and deciding it means there can be nothing like a vanguard or a point of focus.

The world is three dimensional, and "horizontal" isn't as useful a conception in three dimensions as defining things by axes. A horizontally spaced group can still have people in the front if that group is moving. And, really, that's a great way to put it: the only way you can ensure no one is at the head of a struggle is by ensuring the struggle isn't going anywhere.

It's hard to get a group of people to cooperate and unite their focus on an endeavor, and I'm only thinking about small groups working on little projects when I say that. Multiply that by the size of a nation's working class, and it becomes a lot harder. The only way to really make an effective movement is in something like a "bottom-up, vertical" formation, wherein a sound foundation of working class power ensures a check and balance on the "focal points," the "leaders," the "cadres," the "central committee."

[Martin Luther]

We were discussing the tactic of occupy, even if you call them collour revolutions you still admit they where revolutionairy upheavels. Maybe revolutions you object too but radical transformations of the status quo non the less.
Which makes it worthwhile for us to study, for some to emulate but then in a better, more leftist way, and for some leftists in name only like you i guess to be able to counter them in the name of your specific my reactionary pollitcs are better than their reactionary kind of politics.


You know what else was a radical transformation of the status quo in some country?

The Machtergreifung.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Great - nuanced - statement by a Hong Konger and member of No One Is Illegal Montreal here (http://nooneisillegal-montreal.blogspot.ca/2014/10/audio-and-text-of-speech-by-vince-tao.htmlhttp://nooneisillegal-montreal.blogspot.ca/2014/10/audio-and-text-of-speech-by-vince-tao.html).

Thoughts?

[Sharia Lawn]

All Hail the Chinese Deformed Workers State's Defense of the Centrally and Scientifically Planned Economy http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/asia/100000003176672/hong-kong-news-cameras-capture-beating.html

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Reactionaries rebelling

[Illegalitarian]

I guess the good ol' PR of C hasn't made as big a swing towards pragmatism over ideology after all, as it tried to present itself as doing after the days of Mao.

Pushing buttons in such a manner in one of the biggest sources of capital flow on earth? Risky business, I say.