CHRIST, Greatest revolutionary guerrila of all?

[JOSELUIS]

Just to pick your brains i want to know how y'all feel about this subject

[MJM]

No I think he did more damage than any other person in the history of the world.
Greatest delusional crack pot ever ,yes.

I'm sure he meant well but if he was truely gods child I doubt that god would have let his cult become so evil.

[I Will Deny You]

I'm not sure if Christ was that much of a revolutionary because Christianity during his lifetime, and Christianity as he probably wanted it to be, was just a sect of Judaism. Rebelling against traditional Judaism was nothing back then, considering his homeland was occupied by men who fed Jews to lions.

The man who turned Christianity into its own religion was Paul. (By the way, a lot of his writing has been analyzed and many people think he was a schizophrenic.) Paui was the one who really made a difference, Christ just happened to be his vehicle. Christ himself seemed just like a Moses who had finally entered the land of milk and honey, that's all. If Paul had been a student of Moses, the largest religion in the world right now might be "Mosesism."

Jesus and Paul made the two most important contributions to Christianity. Jesus' contribution was not saying that he was the son of G-d, it was saying that he was the messiah. Jesus may very well have been schizophrenic himself, and there are many different thoughts for why he said he was the messiah. Some people think he hated Judaism, some people think he really believed it, others think he was like an ancient Pat Robertson, trying to get money. It will never really be proven beyond a doubt because hardly anything he said himself is actually documented, and what is documented isn't even necessarily true.

Paul's contribution was allowing evangelism. Judaism is anti-evangelism, and without it Jesus' followers would have been like today's Jews for Jesus. Those are the two most revolutionary things about Christianity, and the ones that set it apart from Judaism the most. Paul made other changes Peter didn't want, such as allowing trefe foods, making the trinity such an essential part of the religion, etc. Those are the two biggest differences.

We don't to this day even know if Christ was a revolutionary at all, much less the greatest ever.

What we do know is that the Buddha was a revolutionary, a kind of mix of the Christ a lot of people want to see and Che. He saw a religion that had a lot going for it but knew that it could be improved, much like Christ's followers believed he did. He abolished the class system and said that everyone is equal, like Che did. He has a lot more followers than Che, and he is possibly the greatest revolutionary ever. You have to be a socialist or social democrat to agree with a whole lot of what Che wrote, and Christ wrote hardly anything but you have to be a Christian to agree with almost all of the teachings of/on Christ, but the teachings of the Buddha can inspire non-Buddhists such as myself while touching Buddhists so deeply.

The Buddha gets my vote. Sorry this is so long.

[radiopunkliberado]

It is very easy to attack Christianity. Many see Christianity as part of the great enemy. Afterall it has been used by many men to control the masses. One has to take into consideration that the ideals that Christ thought are not the ideals that are being taught now. If Che's ideas, mores, and convictions were warped by a powerful organization, i.e. the Catholic Church, the common man with a mind of his own would grow to hate Che. And contrary to what my fellow brothers stated, Christ was a revolutionary. He lived amongest the lowest of the Jewish caste system. His best friends where whores, the poor, and the outcasts of Jewish society. He actively fought the upper class, the Jewish priests who prayed in a marble and gold temple. If that is not revolutionary then what is ?

[Kez]

Can someone go to heavan in Christianity, but not believe in god, and not keep Sabbath Holy?

Because the reason i am asking is that, if one can go to heavan, then it is possible for Christianity and socialism to unite, as both their aims are the same.

comrade kamo

[libereco]

just about every christian you ask about god or jesus will tell you different stuff.
And why is that? Because everybody creates their own little god, because a persons god is heavily influenced by the person itself.

for socialists their god and their messiah will most likely have socialist traits as well, for capitalists he'll have more capitalist traits.

[Reuben]

My personal opinion is that Jesus betrayed the poor by telling them to except their position as they will go to heaven, thus anesthetizing the natural rebellion of the poor and oppressed.

This is however from the perspective of a complete atheist


Yours,

Reuben

[I Will Deny You]

I'm not sure if it's "official," but there is a layer of hell for the virtuous unbaptized. So if you're a good heathen, you're still going to hell according to MANY people.

[Dreadnaht1]

Hmmm...

Christians are very very backwards. I mean they want to help the poor, needy and homeless yet they support capitalism. Kind of like shooting yourself in the foot isn't it?

Comrade Dread

[DaNatural]

good point dread, as for christ i disagree with the earlier statement in which someone said that christ was poor, that is false. christ was the messiah because he was a the rightful king of jerusalem which at that time was ran by herod. it even says so in the bible, that jesus is a direct descendant of david. to back that up ill give the citation.(Mathew, 21:9)"praise to david's son", i dont know if it can get much more blatant than that. furthermore, john 1:49 also states the same as above. christ, messiah, meaning rightful king, heir to the throne. this is what jesus was now christians dispute this by saying that the bloodline ended after joseph, because as they say jesus was a virgin birth, but thats nonsense and the bible contradicts what the scholars preach. so yes jesus was a revolutionary and a good one at that, however he did fail. jesus whole mission was to gain back what was rightfully his, he developed a decent following and soon enough the romans were shaking in their booties. this is why he was crucified, rome crucified any revolutionaries who opposed the roman empire. jesus had zealots within his groups who of course are noted as revolutionaries, simon the zealot, and even judas iscariot. whos name has been mis translated and should read Judas the sicarius, or zealot. on top of that the 2 others who died with him on seperate crosses were "lestai" which in greek, which the original gospels are written in, translates into political or revolutionaries or freedom fighters, not common criminals. i dont know what else to say, jesus did fail, he didnt achieve his goal. some believe Paul was a roman agent and that is why the life of jesus has gone another route, that of son of god. the romans wanted to divert any attention away from the real matter and creating a mythicalogical character is just the way to do it. one last note, since it is around that time of year. The topic of christmas i think is interesting to note, seeing as how it took on its date after the winter solstice, or sol ivictus celebrating the sun god. emperor constantine who took control of the empire in 312 incorporated all "christian" holidays into his own religion of sol ivictus, to gain further support from the growing christian population. as im sure most of u know, jesus birth was never mentioned yet it is celebrated in accordance with a pagan religion, pretty intersting, peace.

[vox]

I'm not convinced that Jesus rebelled against Judaism, for the Prophets stated a Messiah would come, and Jesus, or his followers, for it's impossible to know now, claimed that mantle.

Certainly, one could say that Jesus was a reformist, and a profound one at that. Turning the other cheek as opposed to an eye for an eye is one example. Too, in Matthew, Jesus speaks harshly about adultery, yet in John 8 defends an adultress, saying, famously, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." It continues, John 8, 10-11, "When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

So, in that, Jesus is of two minds? Certainly not, I would think, but the men who wrote the Gospels were of two minds.

Beyond that, however, and more to the point, is just how we should now think of Jesus. The argument has been made that Jesus hurt the poor by saying that they should accept their lot, yet Jesus also said, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 6, 19-21.

Jesus presents us with a dichotomy between the material and the spiritual, one that we are free to accept or deny, but not one that subjugates the poor to the rich. Indeed, he states that "it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." If we accept the initial dichotomy, then this follows without much thought.

So the question becomes not whether Jesus helped or hurt the poor, but whether we accept the presumption of a split between the material and the spiritual. Marxism is a materialist philosophy and does not rely upon the grace of God for anything, which cannot be said about Christianity.

Personally, I say let man seek god as he will, it's nothing to do with me. Pray to stones, and I won't say you're wrong. But let us keep clear the notion that the capitalist system of production exploits human beings and pound on that.

If a cross or a lotus flower enriches someone's existence, that's fine by me. But I don't think any rational soul would say a sweatshop enriches anything but the capitalist's bank account, and that's what I'm talking about.

vox

[radiopunkliberado]

You have stated it perfectly.

[revolutionary spirit]

i dislike the christian faith

[Zippy]

Christ was a capitalist. He would of got everyone together for prayer and worship, and then distributed Holy Water for the amazing price of $9.99. ;)

Zippy.

[Moskitto]

Not all christians are capitalists. I am a christian yet I am also a communist. I disagree with many of the institutions which have turned christianity into an oppressive, intolerant and ignorant creed such as many of the popes and organizations such as the KKK.

I have however heard one theory that Jesus actually had a very political message and was really a political activist rather than a religious leader and was executed by the orders of the Romans rather that the Pharases. But what happened was some of his followers changed the story to turn it into a new religion.

And what I think about heavan and hell is that good people go to heavan and evil people go to hell whatever religion they are.

[Renegade]

Yes, I agree with moskito, I too am a Christian at the same time as being a communist.

I think the most important point to consider here is the seperation between the church and the state. When followed correctly, there is nothing about christianity which defies any principle of socialism, and there is nothing about socialism which defies any principle of christianity.

Don't make the mistake of generalising. Christians are not all NCC weirdos, not all conquistadors, not all KKK members and not all intolerant. Christianity preaches tolerance and I think that peoples perception of it is a result of the past where man distorted Christian principles and implemented the spanish inquisition, the KKK etc etc (both are examples of fundamentalism by the way)

To judge christianity is therefore to become an intolerant, ignorant, hypocrite. Without true knowledge of the matter at hand, and based on a perception of christianity based on the actions of mankind (the same people who gave you capitalism). It's like saying all socialists are stalinists, or saying all whites are KKK members or saying all germans are nazis.

Seperate the church and the state. You'll find that christian philosophy in it's pure form will only contribute to the implementation of socialism.

And with the same philosophy, one of seperation, Jesus can't and shouldn't be compared to political revolutionaries. His 'political' actions were extensions of his philosophy. So who then is the greatest 'political' revolutionary?

[Kez]

I too am a Christian/communist which is tough but hey, im a genius.
Love people, Love all

comrade kamo

[gooddoctor]

christ was far from a capitalist. remember when he destroyed the market in the temple at jerusalem? christ was the first great revolutionary, and like most revolutionaries, his followers have perverted and twisted his words until the "true" word of christ has become unrecognisable. even if you're not interested in what he says about god, listen to what he's got to say about peace, cooperation, compassion, comradeship, wealth distribution, the legitimacy of the jewish state etc... if the church truly followed christ's teachings, instead of acting like pious, powermongering, capitalist hypocrites, we wouldn't need socialism.

[Dreadnaht1]

Sort of in response to Moskitto, I was also Christian but I pretty much never really accepted it or did any shit like that. I never believed in any of it and I saw through their damn lies! So I pretty much rejected it and joined the aetheist club. Hey I got Che in my corner now ;)

Allthough my parents did force me to do that whole communion(ism) thing which I actually enjoyed. Going to the classes with the hammer and sickle on my shirt. Oh yeah that brings back memories....

Comrade Dread

[peaccenicked]

It could be that christ was a con man. He used previous
scripture to establish an identity. Some of the early
blasphemies are quite interesting. Some said he had a twin brother thus the ressurection. Some said he had a son. Blasphemers were massacred. The truth might have died with them.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from gooddoctor on 3:07 pm on Dec. 30, 2001
christ was the first great revolutionary
Whether he was a great revolutionary is debatable, but even if you accept that he was a great revolutionary it would be hard to prove that he was the first great one. Slavery had existed for a very long time before the coming of Christ and there have been many leaders of (poorly documented, unfortunately) slave rebellions. There have been many Egyptians who revolutionized mathematics, etc . . . no matter how you define "revolutionary," there have been many greats before Christ.

Although I am not nor have I ever been a Christian, I think it definitely would be possible to be a socialist while believing in Christ. Some people say he was a socialist, most people say he was a capitalist, but I don't think that really matters. One problem I've always had with Christianity (and Catholicism in particular) is that everything is so rigid, and people are hardly ever told to interpret things for themselves. However, when everything Jesus has been recorded as saying amounts to around two paragraphs and they come from a source that can be described as less than reliable at best, it is impossible to really know what Christ was thinking. So people who believe in him (am I supposed to capitalize the H?) will always really believe in an interpretation of what he said. That's how you get everyone from the Gnostics to the Catholics to the 700 Club calling themselves followers of Jesus. While in the 20th Century all sorts of movements stemmed from Christianity, some good and some bad (from the SCLC to the Nazis) the one thing we can agree on is that Christianity, like other religions, can be a powerful force for change.

Oh, here's another thing we can agree on--Christ wasn't quite a revolutionary guerrilla, seeing as how The Holy Land doesn't have much jungle to hide in and shoot people from.

[DaNatural]

To respond to peacenicked' points, there is definantly plent of controversies surrounding his death and life. For a more detailed examination i suggest reading, The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail. I forget the author put putting in a search at aamazon should bring it up, its a gread read and everyone should read it . peace

[Drifter]

christ is unimportant,, its the religion itself, which is merely a tool to keep the masses in line that matters.

[CommieBastard]

just because that is what it has been used for, does not mean that it has to be that...
certainly, it was once a thing which freed people, a revolutionary force, which has now stagnated into some kind of repressive reactionism... but then, cant you say that that is what happened to communism when it became stalinism?

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from CommieBastard on 3:23 pm on Jan. 6, 2002
which has now stagnated into some kind of repressive reactionism...
I just feel like it would be unfair of me if I didn't note that yes, Christians are definitely responsible for some horrible things, and a lot of them use religion in their defense ("Jesus told me to bomb that abortion clinic," etc.). At the same time, there are Catholics who run secular homeless shelters and Protestant charities that feed starving children, but don't proselytize. Overall, Christianity has done more harm than good but most Christians (or at least the ones I know) are good people and some of them are great people. So while there's definitely not a Mother Theresa for every Hitler, it would be unfair to make generalizations.

[CommieBastard]

I was talking about the organisations, not the people who make up part of their whole.
The Vatican church is one of the finest examples of a piece of fucked up shit...
they even own 30% of durex, hypocritical fools...
and the pope did nothing when he found out about african priests raping nuns... you'd think they'd get some kind of punishment...

[JOSELUIS]

ok. in order for my post to be of worth, i shall set a few uncompromising standards. 1. for the sake of discussion lets say that jesus did live and he did do everything stated in the gospel. i.e, raise the dead miracles, whatever. 2. for number one to fit into the equation properly i must share my personal view on what i think and believe about God.

i believe that God created the world and everything inside of it and outside of it. he created angels which were his first children. so the angels had heaven to hang around in but also, earth was like their backyard. Heaven was their home and earth was like were they went outside to play. They could swim in the water play in the snow and all other types of physical pleasures that they wanted. but there were no humans. so whenever the angels felt like going down to earth, they would manifest themselves into whatever physical form they wanted. so then God probably thought, "hey, why dont i make human beings and give them their own little piece of paradise so they could enjoy it while they live, then when theyre ready to reach that higher plane of thought and intellect, they could advance to the next phase of a lifeform which is spiritual. therefore, heaven is where they would go."simple right. Next God probably said that earth was now for humans and that angels couldnt hang out there as often, now the only way they could go there is if they were bringing in a new member or to protect someone who was not yet ready to go. Now obviously this must have angered some of the angels and obviously the top angel of them all was the spokesperson to raise the question of "why?" which was satan, or previously known as "Gods right hand man." So God and the devil had some harsh words and satan says something along the lines of "fuck you." So after that whole fiasco, the devil and the ones who had his back where thrown out of their crib, which is heaven, and cast down to earth. Now because of that, satan developed a deep hate for "dirty humans," he saw how they acted and how they mistreated his fathers creation, and still, God loved them above all else. so in turn the devil said fuck it. im gonna fuck this whole shit up to spite my father which has neglected me. now before the devil was cast down, earth was just an extension of paradise; but ever since satan has been officially sent here, the earth has been his lair, in turn making it hell. He said " ok! you got heaven over there i got hell over here, im gonna fuck up your little pride and joy, run amuck, but not just with blatant destruction from one moment to the next, but slowly and gradually infect the world until it finally withers and takes its last breath. I will cover it with violence, greed, all of mans worst character flaws will be exploited, i will make your people denounce you, renounce you, curse you, pollute the air; I will degrade your name with the evil of religion, make one man want to kill another man just because of his skin color. Make people think that they are goin to heaven if they fly commercial airliners into skyscrapers. I will take a woman, the most beautiful thing that God created and just ravage her mind so that all a female will ever be is just an emotional mush that when "love" is put into the equation, her whole mind state breaks down and acts impulsively and out of wack; but on the other hand i will make a man so that when his cock gets hard, he is nothing but a little weakling that would do anything. I will do all this and at the same time, have humans just commit suicide with every technological notion that has been succedded in making. i will make them want to shoot guns at people and make weapons of mass destruction and have microwaves in every home cellphones to fry your brain, cars to get mangled in, planes to die horrendously in, tall buidings, tunnels bridges, you name it, anything that man has come up with is just a deathtrap. And its all been fueled by what? by me muthafuckers! Because i have made myself a methaphor so it wouldnt be so obvious for people to realize that i am money, gold, wealth, riches whatever you wanna call it. I have made myself this and so everything revolves around me! How do you like your humans now DAD!" the devil said. and now with that in mind God says, "hhmmm, how will i overcome this problem,lets see; i have given man a brain, one of the most intricate pieces of machinery ever created in the universe. It can handle more than a million things at a time, think a light speed, devise ideas, and for those who develop it to its fullest potential, it can open up a new entire world of psychic activities and methaphisics. well there shouldnt be any problem at all, i mean these humans are smart enough to see that right?" but after seeing how humans were in the beginning God was like, "Holy shit, i cant believe these people are that stupid, i told them that they would have eternal life and happiness if they just didnt touch that "tree," and what do they do, they fuck it up." so now Gods all confused and has to change his approach. "well since ive seen that these humans arent to bright when tempted with simple things, in order to fix this problem i have to help them, be there for them, and tell them what to do so they wont go astray; but thats only for those who want to. i will give detailed instructions on how to get to heaven and even if they fuck up most of the time, i'll forgive them anyway. but i wont be reaching for those who dont have their hands extended" so God decides he's gonna help the humans because they cant help themselves and thats his fault because he gave us free will. But at the same time he gave us the blueprint for how his mind works also. i believe that every emotion and thought process is the same one that God has, only more well developed and at a higher plane.(which by the way we can all get to) so when i feel angry i know that some times God might at one point had that same feeling, as is true with every other type of emotion.

So, now God has to save us from satan, and God sees that we give in to him easily so he has got to keep fighting the good fight. and God has been fighting the good fight up until the point were he sent Jesus in. that was the checkmate. From that point on the devil has been going on a downward spiral which for him it would mean to get worse an worse at what he does. getting sicker and sicker. Now here is where it all comes together: Jesus is the greatest revolutionary guerrilla of all time because he changed the course of history until the end of the world. believe it or not, the outcome of the world and its whole existence is due to that man. a man.

One of the definitions in the dictionary of a Guerrilla is: someone who makes raids behind enemy lines. What more enemy lines than earth itself. God sent Christ as a sheep into a herd of wolves. Completely vulnerable to anything the earth had to offer. Maybe a donkey couldve kicked him when he was five and his little chest just caved in and thats that. But it didnt happen, because Jesus had the knowledge of the know, and he was smarter than every body else. Nobody was smarter than Jesus, not now, not ever. Because for someone to resurrect after they die, most definetely takes major brain power. So Jesus is behind enemy lines his whole life because his real home is heaven. Jesus was such a threat to the world the good old satan even paid him a visit. And what did the great temptor say to Jesus. I'll give you anything you want if you bow to your knees and worship me. He didnt even beat around the bush he just came out and said it. The motherfuckin devil just popped up to tell this other mutherfucker to worship him. what does that prove? That Jesus was the one, he was the "neo" of this "matrix." Jesus mind was so focused and sharp he could heal people by touching them or just even thinking of it. He denied the devil three times. three times Jesus told the devil to fuck off. Revolutionary, hell fuck yes, guerrilla, hell fuck yes. He went to war with the Pharisees, the ones who oppressed the poor folk. He called them out, he pulled their card on every single thing. He just came out and just said"crush crush crush." he told people that you didnt have to be rich to go to heaven, he was hanging with bums, he was a bum himself. he was defending whores, healing so called "perverts" and social rejects. He was accused of being the devil for crying out loud.! and what was his response to it:? "if i was the devil, then why would i cast myself against me." so he knew that he was fuckin the devils whole shit up. and with that . Jesus to me is the ultimate rebel because he has BEAT the root of everything that causes me to rebel against things. I hate the U.S. because theres nothing but fuckin rich racist white people and all of that is spawed from the devil. And guess who sunned the devil? JESUS.

[JOSELUIS]

P.S. i dont associate the life of christ and all that to christianity. when im talking about jesus i m not talking about christianity unless its to point out that jeus wasnt christian.

[Dreadnaht1]

9 out of 10 Christians think there is nothing wrong with Christopher Columbus. Columbus killed Native Americans in the name of "God and Christianity." Now understand I'm not gernalizing that all Christians are bad but I'm saying that 9 out of 10 approve of the death of 70 million native Americans. Think what you want about Christians. And also remember the KKK is even Christian. They can't even spell clan for Christ's sake. Literally.

-Dread

[Conghaileach]

Um, Joseluis, were you speaking in a metaphorical sense or a literal sense?

[peaccenicked]

To reply to Joselois, I do not want to argue with his beliefs but his uncompromising standard. We can not assume that the Bible is true. If so is the Koran true.
as well. There is very little proof of them being true.
There some good moral fables in the bible, but
why was Shakespeare so popular. It is not a bad thing to believe in the wisdom behind fairy tales. It is these things that help to bring out the best in humanity. However, we dont need proof of any fairy tales actuality in history and we don't need god to value "genuine"
christian values. Neither does the creationist myth appeal to me at all

[booga]

Quote: from Dreadnaht1 on 1:49 am on Dec. 29, 2001
Hmmm...

Christians are very very backwards. I mean they want to help the poor, needy and homeless yet they support capitalism. Kind of like shooting yourself in the foot isn't it?

Comrade Dread


dread, many people are backwards...heck i read that "communism" in itself is backwards.

Jesus insttucts his follows that you cant server two masters (mammoth=money) (Jesus=God) but that money has its place. Heck Jesus was so upset one day when he walked into the temple that he used a whip to chase out all the money makers. he did not like that they were using the temple that way.

Jesus teaches are incredible, oh and by the way Che although not realizing it lived by many of Jesus' teaching. (i know that will make people mad)

I love Jesus, I know Jesus and Jesus was the greatest revolutionary that walked the land...to this day he still has followers. Seek him out and you will find no greater friend and no greater love. for reals.

Right on! Dread :wink:

[CommieBastard]

I am not a christian, i do not beleive in god, or that christ was the son of god.
yet if jesus was a real man, which i beleive in all likelihood to be true, then i respect him as much as i respect che. I beleive they both embodied the same spirit and perspective, just at a different time in a different societal and cultural context.
I agree with many of the Christian values (when i say christian, i mean actual christian values, not old testament right wing fundamentalist views) e.g do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
god i love that idea, if everyone would just do that, then the world would improve so damn much...
I agree with many other religion's ideas too, however, but also disagree with many.
I agree, for example, with Hare Krisna's stressing on the lack of importance of material goods and sensual gratification. However, i disagree with their reincarnation theories, which strike me as being a form of spiritual class system...

[Dreadnaht1]

In response to Booga I will now stare at my computer monitor with my mouth wide open for o let's make it 5 minutes. :o

--5 minutes pass--

And now it's Che's turn: @:-{O]

(Edited by Dreadnaht1 at 11:18 pm on Jan. 7, 2002)

[HardcoreCommie]

geez comrades,

I find it kind of disturbing that I fancied myself on the same ideological bandwagon as people like dread who would make such sweeping and ignorant characterizations of whole groups, like Christians.

[Dreadnaht1]

You do realize I was only permitting people to do so because they do it to us and because they promote death and backwardism allthough I'm being told they don't.

-Dread

[I Will Deny You]

I agree with HardcoreCommie. Dread, two the most effective homeless shelters I've volunteered at (I've volunteered at five total) were run by Catholics. Some Catholics, and Christians in general, definitely suck, but some are good.

Many Christians try to make themselves better people through religion and that's fine with me as long as they don't say that Christianity is the only way to become a better person. Likewise, Communists who believe that their way is a good way to bring justice about the world are fine, but Communists who declare that all Capitalists are evil are making the same generalizations we don't like to be made about us.

[booga]

Quote: from Dreadnaht1 on 4:17 am on Jan. 8, 2002
In response to Booga I will now stare at my computer monitor with my mouth wide open for o let's make it 5 minutes. :o

--5 minutes pass--

And now it's Che's turn: @:-{O]

(Edited by Dreadnaht1 at 11:18 pm on Jan. 7, 2002)


im sorry its my spelling errors isnt it? look what im trying to say here is that Jesus didnt come to judge anyone but to set man free. when i say Che lived some of the teachings of Jesus i mean this:

Jesus says to live your life for yourself and lose it you have gained nothing-to live your life for Jesus (support what he was about-freedom/forgiveness/and eventually his kingdom on earth as it is in heaven) you have lost nothing and gained everything. Jesus used many parables and riddles in his teachings, heck his own disciples who walked with him daily couldnt figure out the "mysteries" he spoke of. I have to stop here because there is just too much about Jesus to say all at once. But there is much to be learned from him still today, man you wouldnt believe some of the stuff i read, he was definately a prophet as well.

and CB i once thought about reicarnation but when DNA came out then i realized that may not be so, after all there is only one blueprint of one man no?

and JoseLuis whoa, sabes que? If satan himself is to oneday confess that Jesus is Lord, then man that says alot right there if you think about it. People need to wake up to the "humans" that they are and quit emphasizing so much on race; culture; money; whatever because we are infact MAN!

Right On!

[Dreadnaht1]

Maybe that's my problem then, all Christians I've ever talked to look as communists as more worthless then the dirt they stand on. I've never met a Christian who approves of communism/socialism or belives that other religions are acceptable and that only Christianity is "correct." Afterall, if you believe in Christ then you can't simply say that Hinduism is an ok religion since you believe they are wrong in their practices (worshipping, beliefs, etc.).

-Dread

[booga]

Quote: from Dreadnaht1 on 9:33 pm on Jan. 8, 2002
Maybe that's my problem then, all Christians I've ever talked to look as communists as more worthless then the dirt they stand on. I've never met a Christian who approves of communism/socialism or belives that other religions are acceptable and that only Christianity is "correct." Afterall, if you believe in Christ then you can't simply say that Hinduism is an ok religion since you believe they are wrong in their practices (worshipping, beliefs, etc.).

-Dread

Oh Dread your alright...the world is all wrong.
Even Jesus was hated by the so-called self-righteous. They called him satan and witch, so how much more hated will those be that try to follow in his example of true freedom. Man, the Jewish council pretty much forced Pilet to find Jesus guilty, yet Pilet found no guilt in Jesus whatsoever but since the Jewish council was not allowed to pass "execution" as judgement they made the romans do it. Pilet of course had the last say (he only postponed his life a bit longer, id say) so Pilet let the people decide who should go free and they said "Barrabas" "forget Jesus".




(Edited by booga at 8:33 pm on Jan. 9, 2002)

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from booga on 2:12 am on Jan. 9, 2002
Man, the Jewish council pretty much forced Cesar to find Jesus guilty, yet Cesar found no guilt in Jesus whatsoever but since the Jewish council was not allowed to pass "execution" as judgement they made the romans do it.
Hmm . . . must be where that "Jews killed G-d" story came from.

[HardcoreCommie]

well dread have you ever met a muslim or a hindu who says their religion is wrong? You probably haven't and yet you don't think they're all assholes. Moreover have you ever met a communist that thinks he's wrong and that capitalism won't eventually collapse.

[Dreadnaht1]

I thought of my communism as wrong since I was unlearned in it's practices and theories so I put it aside to learn and become a real communist. I do realize that capitalism will never truly fall and that communism will never truly win out all over the world. It's a nice fantasy idea but people will always have that greed in them and that can only be overcome by love for fellow man. So of course there will be that small amount of people who want to take everything for themselves but the magority will want to be socialist and hopefully communist as well. And eventually the U$A will fall as every nation has in the past. Just give it time before the class gap becomes too large for the people.

And Buddhists do celebrate other religious holidays if the occassion calls for it but most other religions aren't that tolerant or 'accepting.' Allthough all the capitalists I've ever spoken to declare communism as dead. Hmmm...

-Dread

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Dreadnaht1 on 6:25 am on Jan. 9, 2002
Allthough all the capitalists I've ever spoken to declare communism as dead. Hmmm...
If you're talking about communism as in neosocialist government (not communism, I know, but some people use the terms interchangably) then it would be hard for anyone to deny its existence, considering the fact that over a billion people live in China alone. If you're talking about communism as in Marx's original ideas, which no country has ever adapted or has even been close to adapting, then you've gotta give them some credit there. Marx's teachings have been around for a long fucking time, but no government has ever successfully put them to use for even a year. (This, of course, depends on how strictly you define certain things, but you get my gist . . . ) I'm not a capitalist or a communist, and I believe that true capitalism is flourishing and true communism was never put into practice.

I believe that communist organizations, not governments, are flourishing, but at the moment I don't believe they have a chance in hell of actually taking over any countries.

[booga]

too much information in my head and not enough details...:cheesy:

i made a terrible mistake and i apologize.

(Edited by booga at 9:54 pm on Jan. 9, 2002)

[booga]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 2:48 am on Jan. 9, 2002

Quote: from booga on 2:12 am on Jan. 9, 2002
Man, the Jewish council pretty much forced Cesar to find Jesus guilty, yet Cesar found no guilt in Jesus whatsoever but since the Jewish council was not allowed to pass "execution" as judgement they made the romans do it.
Hmm . . . must be where that "Jews killed G-d" story came from.


IT WAS "PILOT" NOT CAESAR. (gee i should go get a job with the courts hehe)

(Edited by booga at 10:23 pm on Jan. 9, 2002)

[Dreadnaht1]

In response to Deny, I do feel that true communism (Marxism) will never truly exist. It's just not possible. My friend is a neo-marxist I can't say that that really appeals to me. I do feel, however, that Communism is a general set of ideas that can be adapted and molded to fit any nation. That's the real beuty of communism. For example, Marxism is supposedly true communism when in fact it's just a form of communism adapted to fit Britain in the 1800's. While Leninism is communism that's adapted to fit the nation of Russia in the year 1917. Castroism is the communism for Cuba and it goes on from there. No two communist nations are the same and I highly doubt Marxism will ever be used by a nation. That in my opinion is a good thing because any nation, no matter what the circumstances, can have a form of communism.

So now we look at capitalism and see that it's very strict and only exists in one form. So now a nation has to snap into that form. It's like going at 100mph in your car and then all of the sudden stopping and changing to 10mph. It just doesnt work. It sucks the money out of nation and leaves thousands of poor. So a nation with communist intents can slowly adapt or change to it and that's much better on the nation, it's economy, people, etc.

-Dread

[JOSELUIS]

barrabas' first name was jesus also.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Dreadnaht1 on 2:06 pm on Jan. 10, 2002
So now we look at capitalism and see that it's very strict and only exists in one form.Hmm, I'm not sure. One of the main reasons why I am very reluctant to label myself as a communist or socialist is that capitalism is pretty flexible. You didn't give any real-life examples, just named names, and if you were more specific my response would definitely be more appropriate and focused. But think about artisans and trade: many artists and merchants throughout the history of civilization have simply moved near the water and traded their art with others for money, which they used for food, clothing, shelter, etc. This could theoretically happen under capitalism or communism, but it's happened a lot more under capitalism. At the same time, small self-sufficient towns can exist away from large bodies of water with pretty much no one to trade with. Everything is family-based and kept at a local level. I think that's two kinds of capitalism, but I didn't quite understand what you were saying.

[Dreadnaht1]

Yeah I'm still biased towards the left so I'm going to have to give this a good old fashioned FUCK CAPITALISM!

;)

-Dread

[gogo gomez]

hmm Dread i think im starting to understand. marxism is a theological teaching that Che was applying to his own personal life but manifesting it outwardly so that it would promote a change in the world...but did it specifically promote the word "communist"?

its interesting that you note its theories as never fully being put into practice because i think on the teaching of Jesus and i believe in them yet the purpose of its entire instruction or purpose has never fully evolved. yet when i think on it seems "outrageous" but with God all things are possible.

If you get an opportunity read the gospel according to Luke Chapter 16 verse 10-16. It mentions that everyone who enters the kingdom does so but violently.:confused: (cant interpret the meaning)

[gogo gomez]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 7:03 am on Jan. 11, 2002
But think about artisans and trade: many artists and merchants throughout the history of civilization have simply moved near the water and traded their art with others for money, which they used for food, clothing, shelter, etc. This could theoretically happen under capitalism or communism, but it's happened a lot more under capitalism. At the same time, small self-sufficient towns can exist away from large bodies of water with pretty much no one to trade with. Everything is family-based and kept at a local level

this makes me think that somewhere along the way man has failed. with nuclear power being a threat to the world how do we go back. its no secret that the "evil" rich have created and infiltrated these types of weapons for the destruction of man because of pure hate. yet we are faced with specifics in order to solve or undo the damages. i wish in school we were taught more about the humans that we are and how we evolve. that could make human beings more like weapons since we are challenged by forces that are created with the sole purpose of our destruction.

[HardcoreCommie]

You people have to lose this Good vs. Evil mentality. "The 'evil' rich", what's that all about. Things are not that clear cut, the underdog is not always the good guy.

[MJM]

The rich are evil I think.The poor are robbed and killed by the fuckers, or is murder and theft a virtue now?

I'm talking rich here not joe average with a flash car ok.

[Kez]

The rich are sometimes bastards, not because they want to be , but beacsue capitalism made them to be, therefore by attacking capitalism we end a long reign of rich bastards

comrade kamo

[Moskitto]

Do I count as rich if I've got loads more money because I don't buy anything?

[Che Jexster]

Why do we need to make it seem like some people are absolutly evil and some are absolutly good? Let's say you go to med school to help people. Then you graduate and get a job in say Canada, you don't move to a third world country because you'd rather stay with your friends/family or whatever. Are you evil?

[Dreadnaht1]

But what if someone is extremely rich and uses their money to start a revolution. i.e. Castro in the Cuban revolution. Castro was rich and the Cuban Revolution might not of been successful if there was less money involved.

-Dread