"Best way not to get raped by cops is to ‘follow the law’"

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Seriously, this is just vile....

From Raw Story:


An Oklahoma Highway Patrol official reportedly told women that the best way not to get raped by an officer was to “follow the law.” In recent months, an Oklahoma Highway Patrol officer and an Oklahoma City Police officer have been accused of repeatedly raping women (http://www.news9.com/story/26561630/arrest-of-deputy-for-sexual-assault-is-third-of-its-kind), often during traffic stops.
After a Tulsa County sheriff’s deputy was arrested last week for sexually assaulting a woman while responding to a 911 call, Tulsa NBC News affiliate KJRH (http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/tulsa-county-deputy-gerald-nuckolls-resigns-amid-allegations-of-sexual-assault-arrest#2%20WOMEN%20ACCUSE%20FORMER%20DEPUTY%20OF%2 0SEXUAL%20MISCONDUCT) decided to ask the Oklahoma Highway Patrol how to stay safe during a traffic stop.
The department noted that troopers should always be in uniform, and that women were allowed to keep their car door locked, and to speak with officers through a cracked window. A trooper should rarely ask a person to come back to the patrol car, OHP advised.
“There are certain situations where we do that,” Capt. George Brown told KJRH. “If someone doesn’t have a driver’s license on their person. We asked for an ID or driver’s licence, if they can’t provide it, rather than stand outside the car writing [a ticket], which puts us in a bad location, we may ask a female back to the car so we can get her information.”
The KJRH anchor said that Brown concluded with this advice: “The captain says anything that happens inside a troopers car is videotaped, and he says that supervisors do review those tapes.”
“He says the best tip that he can give is to follow the law in the first place so you don’t get pulled over,” the anchor added.
Brown told KWTV (http://www.news9.com/story/26561630/arrest-of-deputy-for-sexual-assault-is-third-of-its-kind) that OHP was working to regain the public’s trust.
“There are entirely more good officers than there are the few bad apples that exist out there, and we want people to know that,” he explained. “We have a lot of good troopers, a lot of good officers out there doing a lot of good things daily, and we want to continue that and have the public continue their trust in us.”


The TL;DR version:

Two cops in Oklahoma are accused of multiple counts of sexual assault on women, often during traffic stops (and in one case in the victim's own home). Oklahoma Highway Patrol Capt. George Brown said that if women wanted to avoid complications with police, then "The best tip he can give is to follow the law in the first place."

So yeah, this is your weekly reminder that cops are assholes who deserve a few bottles and bricks to the head.

[Palmares]

This is disgusting. Always blaming the victim.

Here's the piggies maintaining the patriarchy again. :mad:

[Skyhilist]

Ugh. Somewhat related, there's been a lot of sexual violence on the University of Florida campus recently and the university is extremely reactionary in the way they deal with it, with this stupid fucking motto of "be aware, be a gator", and not even touching on the root cause (rapists). The shit they're putting out seems to basically be "just make sure it's some other girl that gets raped and not you"

[Sea]

It's the opposite. The best way to get raped and shot by cops is to follow the law.

[Bala Perdida]

Bricks? They need bullets for the message to be clear. I'm too scared to deliver on that, but that's just how it is.

[Sea]

Bricks? They need bullets for the message to be clear. I'm too scared to deliver on that, but that's just how it is.Oh you're so fucking edgy. Advocating cop killing is unproductive and dangerous.

[BIXX]

Oh you're so fucking edgy. Advocating cop killing is unproductive and dangerous.


Actually I think they weren't trying to be edgy- they were expressing their true feeling. They did say they were too afraid to do it, which makes the likeliness offsite seem lower.

[Palmares]

Oh you're so fucking edgy. Advocating cop killing is unproductive and dangerous.

Would you say that to someone raped by a cop? That would follow that... killing a rapist would be "unproductive and dangerous". And that would make rape.... productive and safe?

No fucking excuses, no fucking tolerance for police sympathy. :mad:

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

It's the opposite. The best way to get raped and shot by cops is to follow the law.

It might well be true, actually, but that just means that cops abuse their authority and the police as an institution are less concerned with that than with minor traffic infractions. A "cops will be cops" attitude. Either way it's reactionary nonsense.

[Sea]

It might well be true, actually, but that just means that cops abuse their authority and the police as an institution are less concerned with that than with minor traffic infractions. A "cops will be cops" attitude. Either way it's reactionary nonsense.Cops have far more de facto authority than what's on the books. When a police officer kills or rapes someone, they're breaking the laws on the books but they're utilizing the authority given to them by the capitalist order of things. That's the scary part - our society effectively grants cops the authority to rape and murder.
Would you say that to someone raped by a cop? That would follow that... killing a rapist would be "unproductive and dangerous". And that would make rape.... productive and safe?

No fucking excuses, no fucking tolerance for police sympathy. :mad:ok, for those of you who insist on missing the point that badly:

Advocating cop-killing on the internet is sketchy as hell and is certianly not something I would want on *my* webserver. As Dirty Doxxer said you can have your true feelings as you please but there are some things we don't blab about on the interwebs.

Additionally, if you kill a cop you're killing an individual. Whatever I guess but the problem here is structural. Same reason you can't abolish capitalism by going out and shooting a bunch of bosses. And if you're naive enough to think that "sending a message" to cops would do anything but totally backfire, you're really off the deep end!

[Lily Briscoe]

Yeah, I get the impression that cops coercing women into sex with the threat of arrest/legal repercussions is an incredibly common/widespread thing. As sick as it is to say it, it's actually almost nice to see them being honest about it for once.

[Palmares]

ok, for those of you who insist on missing the point that badly:

Advocating cop-killing on the internet is sketchy as hell and is certianly not something I would want on *my* webserver. As Dirty Doxxer said you can have your true feelings as you please but there are some things we don't blab about on the interwebs.

Additionally, if you kill a cop you're killing an individual. Whatever I guess but the problem here is structural. Same reason you can't abolish capitalism by going out and shooting a bunch of bosses. And if you're naive enough to think that "sending a message" to cops would do anything but totally backfire, you're really off the deep end!

Thanks for the "Security Culture 101"!

But seriously, sure, you don't talk about sensitive subject matter on the internet. That much is true. But I don't buy your strawman. Defence against anyone, whether cops, rapists, whoever, can be justified. That's what I'm saying. And I think cops are shit. But somehow I'm jumping up and saying something about taking out a bunch as some revolutionary stratagem? Not at all. I'm hardly ignorant of the fact that such a tactic, at the very least, is ineffective if not counter-productive.

If we are to get everywhere in our struggles, it's against the totality, not a singularity.

What [email protected] Fuerte originally said was more equivalent to an angsty rage against the machine lyric than some well formulated threat. Maybe you're right and such comments aren't constructive, at least in some elaborate revolutionary paradigm. But we also shouldn't cower in fear and police ourselves and each other about our distaste for the police. Especially rapist cops!

[Bala Perdida]

I thought cop killing was advocated on here regularly. They do it in rap songs and no one seems to care. Why would they care when we do it, especially when we express our fears of actually doing it? It just shows we hate them that much. At most they get some sick pleasure out of that, and think of themselves as government thugs or something.

[Lily Briscoe]

It's 'funny' that this thread is now about killing cops. Typical revleft.

[Red Terror Dr.]

This is the sickest thing a cop can do. They can hit me over the head with a truncheon 'til hell freezes over and it wouldn't compare with one instance of using their badge to rape with impunity. :crying:

[Ocean Seal]

Oh you're so fucking edgy. Advocating cop killing is unproductive and dangerous.
Fuck you.
The best way that cops can avoid dying during the revolution is to stop being cops.

[Geiseric]

Welcome to politics.

[Invader Zim]

That would follow that... killing a rapist would be "unproductive and dangerous".

It is. People who arguw for the death penalty are reactionary morons decades, if not centuries, out of date. Any criminal justice system built on punative retribution is destined to fail and any one who say's different is a rightwing nutjob who doesn't understand elementary statistics or history.


No fucking excuses, no fucking tolerance for police sympathy.

Shooting down that kind of bullshit is not tolerance for the police, and you're an idiot for suggesting otherwise. Now, return to your pond.

[The Modern Prometheus]

I wouldn't advocate killing cops for the fun of it as much as much as i might like to myself. But there have been cases even in Canada where people have killed on duty police officers in self defense and the courts have ruled it justified. These particular piggies should be made examples of as far as i am concerned. Put them on trial and hang the bastards. But that would never happen as they are essentially the first line of defense for the state apparatus.

Personally i don't much give a fuck if they are a cop or a civilian if someone tries to hurt me i am going to do my best to stop that by any means necessary. Id rather be up on murder charges then in a box personally cause it's kinda hard to dig yourself out of 6 feet of dirt.

I like the approach the Black Panthers took against the cops which was a purely defensive position. Pretty much the same thing in Ireland making Free Derry and South Armagh no go zones for the RUC and even keeping the military at bay.

[Slavic]

Fuck you.
The best way that cops can avoid dying during the revolution is to stop being cops.

Except we are not talking about a revolution you idiot. Those in this thread championing cop killing are doing so in a purely retribution like manner without regards to any societal gains except vengeance.

Killing a cop in self defense is one thing, but going about picking off police is just stupid.

[The Modern Prometheus]

Except we are not talking about a revolution you idiot. Those in this thread championing cop killing are doing so in a purely retribution like manner without regards to any societal gains except vengeance.

Killing a cop in self defense is one thing, but going about picking off police is just stupid.

Actually demoralizing the police would have a overall effect on the state. If say cops had to check their cars for bombs every time they went to work for fear of being blown to bacon heaven i bet alot less would sign up. You have to understand the mentality of a pig. They are bullies and like all bullies go after the weak but what if people where suddenly not so helpless anymore against them? They know full well when they sign up that they could be coming home in a body bag as that's part of the job.

I am by no means advocating a offensive tactic against the police but it would be interesting to see if people would be so gung ho to sign up if it went from them beating on innocent people to them being the ones dodging bullets.

[Slavic]

I am by no means advocating a offensive tactic against the police but it would be interesting to see if people would be so gung ho to sign up if it went from them beating on innocent people to them being the ones dodging bullets.

What an odd contradictory sentence.

[The Modern Prometheus]

What an odd contradictory sentence.

Well under current circumstances offensive tactics against the police would not work simply because one would have to fight a rather dirty guerrilla war against them and who wants to do that right now? It's been done in other countries with various success rates but it certainly has never been tried in the US. Except for a few lone wolves of course and they do no fucking good at all.

[Sea]

Fuck you.
The best way that cops can avoid dying during the revolution is to stop being cops.Fuck me. I never said anything to suggest that cops would be protected in a revolutionary context. If I said anything that contradicts your view on cops plz let me know where I said it ok.

[John Nada]

I thought cop killing was advocated on here regularly. They do it in rap songs and no one seems to care. Why would they care when we do it, especially when we express our fears of actually doing it? It just shows we hate them that much. At most they get some sick pleasure out of that, and think of themselves as government thugs or something.No, it's all just metaphors. Like saying "My parents will kill me if they catch me." Right?;)

Isn't it strange how it's okay to say you want to kill criminals or hundreds of thousands of people in war, so long as it's to defend the state?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Yo advocating cop killing on the internet is kind of dumb for a bunch of reasons.

[Palmares]

It is. People who arguw for the death penalty are reactionary morons decades, if not centuries, out of date. Any criminal justice system built on punative retribution is destined to fail and any one who say's different is a rightwing nutjob who doesn't understand elementary statistics or history.

Haha, you think I'm talking about a punitive system? No thanks to your strawman too. I don't believe in the punitive system at all. I'm anarchistic in nature. I'm talking about the fact that's it's reasonable to react in self-defence against oppressors, whether a rapist, or a cop, or both. I'm not talking about some theoretical strategy, or "justice system".

In a self-governed autonomous community, would killing someone be justified? Preferably not, but I'm not the autocrat of such a community, so I don't know. Depends on the community doesn't it?


Shooting down that kind of bullshit is not tolerance for the police, and you're an idiot for suggesting otherwise. Now, return to your pond.

You too? I wouldn't have expected this from you. When did you convert to liberalism?

[Ocean Seal]

Except we are not talking about a revolution you idiot. Those in this thread championing cop killing are doing so in a purely retribution like manner without regards to any societal gains except vengeance.

Killing a cop in self defense is one thing, but going about picking off police is just stupid.
Working class anger against the cops is Always Justified. Cops are often the closest link we get to the capitalist hierarchy. They are enforcers and goons who occupy our streets the same way troops occupy the third world. Resistance against military occupation is justified in the third world, resistance against police occupation is justified in poor and working class communities. If the cops are coming in arresting your family, shooting at unarmed teenagers, and RAPING women. Not only that, but they fucking get away with it everytime. There was just another cop who killed a kid and got 71k in back pay and his job back. Think about the last time you heard about someone getting fired? Did they kill anyone? No. Did they get back pay and their job back a few months later? No...

You aren't a leftist if you don't feel that people are entitled to do anything about it when the justice system won't. Making sure we keep murderers and rapists out of a position of poweris a priority for the working class.

[Bala Perdida]

I mean sure, calling on all of you to step forward for a glorious armed resistance against the capitalist oppressor on the internet is stupid. That wasn't my intention, nor is it now. I'm not looking to get on a watch-list, but armed resistance is a necessity if you want to keep the police out of your neighborhood. Although maybe the riot tactics mentioned in the OP would be better suited. The message is that the pigs seem to only understand aggression, but in the modern day they've been effective in countering any resistance. So, overall it seems like an un-winable battle at this point. I'm not gonna kill anyone, I don't have the mental capabilities to bring myself to do so. I don't think anyone should, it's a hard crime to get away with. If it happens though, then they had it coming. They knew about the parasitic nature of the police and I haven't seen a single officer do anything to stop it. The difference is we suffer, they don't.
EDIT: Armed resistance doesn't necessarily mean guns, but something like the BPP and the AIM are popular movements that practiced it that people seem to agree with. The BPP however was destroyed from the inside and from my understanding the AIM died down.

[Invader Zim]

Haha, you think I'm talking about a punitive system? No thanks to your strawman too. I don't believe in the punitive system at all. I'm anarchistic in nature. I'm talking about the fact that's it's reasonable to react in self-defence against oppressors, whether a rapist, or a cop, or both. I'm not talking about some theoretical strategy, or "justice system".

In a self-governed autonomous community, would killing someone be justified? Preferably not, but I'm not the autocrat of such a community, so I don't know. Depends on the community doesn't it?



You too? I wouldn't have expected this from you. When did you convert to liberalism?

I see. However, I'm not convinced that a society in which everybody is armed, in the name of self defence, is any more appealing than a state that employs the death penalty. And I don't see how rejecting that kind of society, as being a miserable and culturally broken, is a nod to liberalism. Surely, it is a nod to common sense?

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

You aren't a leftist if you don't feel that people are entitled to do anything about it when the justice system won't. Making sure we keep murderers and rapists out of a position of poweris a priority for the working class.
Marxists don't support individual terrorism.

In our eyes, individual terror is inadmissible precisely because it belittles the role of the masses in their own consciousness, reconciles them to their powerlessness, and turns their eyes and hopes towards a great avenger and liberator who some day will come and accomplish his mission. The anarchist prophets of the ‘propaganda of the deed’ can argue all they want about the elevating and stimulating influence of terrorist acts on the masses. Theoretical considerations and political experience prove otherwise. The more ‘effective’ the terrorist acts, the greater their impact, the more they reduce the interest of the masses in self-organisation and self-education. But the smoke from the confusion clears away, the panic disappears, the successor of the murdered minister makes his appearance, life again settles into the old rut, the wheel of capitalist exploitation turns as before; only the police repression grows more savage and brazen. And as a result, in place of the kindled hopes and artificially aroused excitement comes disillusionment and apathy.It's almost eerie how this passage, written in 1911, could have been written today.

[Hermes]

It's almost eerie how this passage, written in 1911, could have been written today.

This is probably a dumb reply, but I'm not sure I understand the quote.

Aren't we part of 'the masses'? I don't see anyone saying that killing cops will result in "elevating and stimulating" the 'masses', but palmares arguing that self-defense is legitimate against law enforcement, and ocean seal arguing that people keeping 'murderers and racists' out of power is legitimate.

I might just be misunderstanding you or palmares or ocean seal, though.

[cyu]

Arm yourself. Protect the people you believe deserve protecting. If armed men of some sort start acting like a standing army, treat them like you would treat any other kind of armed threat.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

This is probably a dumb reply, but I'm not sure I understand the quote.

Aren't we part of 'the masses'? I don't see anyone saying that killing cops will result in "elevating and stimulating" the 'masses', but palmares arguing that self-defense is legitimate against law enforcement, and ocean seal arguing that people keeping 'murderers and racists' out of power is legitimate.

I might just be misunderstanding you or palmares or ocean seal, though.
The reason I used that quote is because there have been efforts in this thread to conflate opposing individual terrorism against cops (or the "principle" of doing so) with a sympathetic defense of the capitalist state. Hence we have [email protected] Fuerte with his comment on "bullets" instead of "bricks", and Palmares' overreaction to Sea. Lastly, we have Ocean Seal with his gem of a comment:

"You aren't a leftist if you don't feel that people are entitled to do anything about it when the justice system won't."

The question is, what does "anything" mean, and in what context? And for that matter, how would we keep "murderers and rapists" out of office? Ocean Seal doesn't elaborate, but I think it's pretty obvious. These are general calls for vengeance, without any signs of tactical considerations behind them.

[Lily Briscoe]

Arm yourself. Protect the people you believe deserve protecting.

Some people really live in a complete fantasyland.

-

As far as I can tell, this 'discussion' isn't even a real discussion; it is teenage boys fantasizing about vigilante justice.

[Red Terror Dr.]

If you kill a cop he will be easily replaced. Someone from the working class will volunteer to take his job. :(

[Hrafn]

Self-protection against the police is not a fantasy. See: Black Panthers.

[Lord Testicles]

If you kill a cop he will be easily replaced. Someone from the working class will volunteer to take his job. :(

Don't worry, there are more far more bullets than people.

[Dagoth Ur]

Holy shit I went to school with one of these guys. This is nuts.

Oklahoma cops are very corrupt and very powerful. I'm surprised news like this doesn't come out more often.

[Slavic]

Don't worry, there are more far more bullets than people.

There are far more food than what is needed for the world.

It doesn't matter the amount of something, what matters is who controls it.

[Lord Testicles]

There are far more food than what is needed for the world.

It doesn't matter the amount of something, what matters is who controls it.

Indeed. I was being facetious.

[Slavic]

Indeed. I was being facetious.

Every time I see that word all I can see is feces.

Anyways, individual acts of terrorism, even against cops, never works.

[cyu]

http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Manifestos/Panther_platform.html

We can end police brutality in our community by organizing self-defense groups dedicated to defending our community from police oppression and brutality. The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States gives a right to bear arms. We believe people should arm themselves for self defense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Panther_Party

The White Panthers were a far-left, anti-racist, white American political collective. It was started in response to an interview where Huey P. Newton, co-founder of the Black Panther Party, was asked what white people could do to support the Black Panthers. Newton replied that they could form a White Panther Party.

In 1984, angry because then-Mayor of San Francisco Dianne Feinstein proposed to ban handguns in the city, the San Francisco White Panthers mounted a successful petition drive that forced Feinstein into a recall election, which she won. Within the next year, a WPP house was burned down by the San Francisco Police, and the leaders of the local chapter had been jailed after their commune was raided without a warrant, effectively destroying the chapter.

[Hagalaz]

Okay.
Now what about the vast majority of rapes that occur?

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Manifestos/Panther_platform.html

We can end police brutality in our community by organizing self-defense groups dedicated to defending our community from police oppression and brutality. The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States gives a right to bear arms. We believe people should arm themselves for self defense.
You're relying too much on the text of the Constitution as opposed to its social context. The Second Amendment is applied very selectively in the US, and any working class neighborhood that organizes in any fashion will be treated as a military threat, regardless of their stated purpose. Since class tensions are far from their breaking point and consciousness is at an all time low, there is little to be gained by calling for this now.

[Ferret the Anarchist]

Fuck cops.

This makes me sick to my stomach.

[cyu]

As they say at http://everything2.com/user/Jurph/writeups/No+government+can+ever+give+you+freedom

...I would have worded it differently - although those in power try their hardest to only make us think from their desired point of view.

In other words, instead of claiming that the government "gives" you a right, a better way to phrase it might be "The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States prevents the ruling class from taking away our weapons."

[Red Commissar]

They always trot out the bit about there being more good cops, but I don't know how these guys can continue sticking their head in the ground claiming these things are being blown out of proportion when nowadays we're getting so much insight into police abuses, be it from enforcement to resentment to outright murder from these guys.

They never take much action against these guys, at best unpaid administrative leave and then quietly reassigned when the attention dies off. And they still are incredulous when so much rage explodes against them, but I guess as long as they have useful idiots in the media continuing to portray them as the thin blue line and victim-blame, they'll continue to operate with impunity.

[Ocean Seal]

Marxists don't support individual terrorism.
It's almost eerie how this passage, written in 1911, could have been written today.
I'm not suggesting that we go out killing cops, I'm suggesting that we don't condemn corrections to the justice system from the very communities that are being oppressed. Otherwise we tacitly take the side of the oppressor in equating the violence. Embrace resistance, the struggle is not in your mind, it is in the streets.



Some people really live in a complete fantasyland.

-

As far as I can tell, this 'discussion' isn't even a real discussion; it is teenage boys fantasizing about vigilante justice.
Keep living in a reality where you let the cops get away with everything without doing a thing. Maybe if we keep discussing esoteric problems we will really get the working class involved.

As a previous user said: see black panthers.
The working class responds to communism when communists respond to the working class.

Tl;dr: Organize people around what affects them. And offer a solution of some kind.

[bcbm]

Keep living in a reality where you let the cops get away with everything without doing a thing. Maybe if we keep discussing esoteric problems we will really get the working class involved.

As a previous user said: see black panthers.

the police killed the black panthers and continue to rule over the communities they were strongest in as an occupying army that kills with impunity.

[Lily Briscoe]

Keep living in a reality where you let the cops get away with everything without doing a thing. Maybe if we keep discussing esoteric problems we will really get the working class involved. Actually I was interested in discussing sexual coercion by the police, which - you may not have noticed - was the actual topic of this thread and is unfortunately not an 'esoteric problem' at all. But most people here seem more interested in roleplaying vengeance fantasies and/or engaging in an abstract debate on the merits of hypothetical individualistic attacks on police officers. So this comment is a bit ironic really.


As a previous user said: see black panthers.
Right, a deeply sexist, defunct black nationalist organization. That's your 'solution' to sexual assault by the police?

The working class responds to communism when communists respond to the working class.

Tl;dr: Organize people around what affects them. And offer a solution of some kind.
That's pretty profound, man.

[The Modern Prometheus]

Keep living in a reality where you let the cops get away with everything without doing a thing. Maybe if we keep discussing esoteric problems we will really get the working class involved.

As a previous user said: see black panthers.
The working class responds to communism when communists respond to the working class.

Tl;dr: Organize people around what affects them. And offer a solution of some kind.

There have been many examples of this in countries that are every bit as advanced as the US and in the US itself. The Panthers being a good American example (and they where not Black Nationalists or sexist as some on here are claiming) while the citizens of Free Derry being a western Europe example. So to say it can't be done is nothing but pure defeatism. I don't think it would be too ambitious of a plan to create no go areas for the police which is pretty much what the citizens of Free Derry did and what the Panthers more or less did in America.

Really everyone keeps coming up with excuses why not to defend ourselves against the police such as they will be slaughtered (No doubt there would be some shootings but fuck isn't that already going on?), the citizens simply would not stand for it (a year ago i would have agreed with this) or that military action will be taken thus putting a end to it all. But really wtf is it going to take before people say enough is enough? How many more innocent people have to get killed for no reason by these piggies before people stand up and refuse to be passive targets for the police anymore. As someone who has actually seen police brutality and seen police get brutalized in return i bet most people on here if they saw a cop raping or beating on a friend, family member or neighbor of theirs would be dropping the pacifist motto right away and picking up the nearest gun instead after witnessing such a incident.

As far as using the 1 good cop argument i would say that no matter what that cops intentions originally are if they think they can make a change within such a organization where your job is to protect the state from the people they are fucking delusional. As soon as that cop joins the force all their good intentions go right out the window and they either become as corrupt as the rest or just turn a blind eye to it all. Hence they become part of the problem and not part of the solution and must be treated like every other copper. Saying that you are just doing your job does not cut it because if it did the Nuremberg trials would not have resulted in any hangings.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

I'm not suggesting that we go out killing cops, I'm suggesting that we don't condemn corrections to the justice system from the very communities that are being oppressed. Otherwise we tacitly take the side of the oppressor in equating the violence. Embrace resistance, the struggle is not in your mind, it is in the streets.
You did not say this earlier. You never mentioned “corrections”, you just gave a vague generalization on how workers should be able to do “anything” to resist the police. Even if I accept that I misunderstood you, this would still be inadequate because you seem to lack a program that could attract and unite the most militant workers to a socialist party, from which police opposition could be mounted. Opportunistic phraseology like “always justified”, “they fucking get away with it every time”, and “you aren’t a real leftist if…” does not rule out vigilantism and in fact encourages it. Your “embrace resistance” is the latest example of such tomfoolery.

As for “tacitly” embracing our oppressors, what else is new? The working class itself cannot be exploited without in some way eagerly assisting the bourgeoisie in the process. For that matter, there are many aspects of capitalist society that we “tacitly” accept, many of them horrendous, humiliating, and at times unnoticeable. So what is to be done? I’m not sure yet. But I’m convinced vague sloganeering is not the answer.

You last sentence is noteworthy for its dismissal of the psychological aspect of bourgeois ideology. What takes place in the mind is no less real than what is outside it. If it wasn’t, why hasn’t capitalism been overthrown already? Wilhelm Reich posed a very important question here in relation to class consciousness: “What has to be explained is not the fact that the man who is hungry steals or the fact that the man who is exploited strikes, but why the majority of those who are hungry don’t steal, and why the majority of those who are exploited don’t strike.”

Keep living in a reality where you let the cops get away with everything without doing a thing. Maybe if we keep discussing esoteric problems we will really get the working class involved.
Yes, questions of tactics and context in conjunction with theory in praxis is completely esoteric. By all means, take pride in your awakening while the rest of us prostrate ourselves before the police and our beloved capitalist state.

The working class responds to communism when communists respond to the working class.
This is contradictory. Socialists are not simply outside agitators who function to stir up the working class, they are the most conscious and determined section of the working class. Class allegiance is decisive here; the petty-bourgeois origin of many Marxists does not change this.

[Ocean Seal]

Actually I was interested in discussing sexual coercion by the police, which - you may not have noticed - was the actual topic of this thread and is unfortunately not an 'esoteric problem' at all.
I agree and that is why we need something to address it. Hence self-defense against the police.


But most people here seem more interested in roleplaying vengeance fantasies and/or engaging in an abstract debate on the merits of hypothetical individualistic attacks on police officers. So this comment is a bit ironic really.
What part of my posts included revenge fantasies?



Right, a deeply sexist, defunct black nationalist organization. That's your 'solution' to sexual assault by the police?


1. Afaik sexism wasn't the most prominent problem in the BP. This strikes me as the kind of thing that gets circulated around small leftist cliques so they can disavow any movement that existed in the working poor and black/latino communities. Which ironically enough, if they are sexists it is partially because leftists only want to fight sexism and heterosexism in safe communities (not ones where it is more pronounced). And since you took the time to insult me, I'd like to equate you with a Dan Savage (someone who some members of this board have defended), a man who blames heterosexism largely on minorities because they are not open to gay marriage and such. Because seriously its not as if there are LGBTQ minorities who are poor who are struggling to see why you would abandon them for the point of political posturing. And being that this is an issue which disproportionately affects women, and most likely poor women and women of color, it does bother me that the concept (not the particular practice of the black panthers) is not something that you would consider. Maybe you want to talk about the police and call them fuckers and all that, but I'd prefer if the women who were being affected were organized against the police and frankly I don't think I could disavow whatever their actions were.
2. The black panthers weren't black nationalists (although I understand why it offends you when black people don't follow the rules of the organizations that you and your virtuous comrades lead).
3. Frankly IIRC I referred to the concept that the black panthers applied. I don't really know if you understand that you can disagree with an organization and still see a valuable organizational principle.



That's pretty profound, man.
Thanks man, I understand that you meant it condescendingly, but thanks. Your acknowledgement means a lot to me.

[cyu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pink_Panthers

The Pink Panthers name has been used for several different LGBT rights organizations in North America since the 1970s.

A neighborhood watch founded by members of Queer Nation would patrol areas that had a large number of gang assaults on homosexual men.

[Lily Briscoe]

I agree and that is why we need something to address it. Hence self-defense against the police.I'm not sure you even understand the problem here in the first place... It isn't that cops are coming into working class neighborhoods, busting down doors, and forcibly raping random women (although I'd imagine this does happen, I don't think it is 'routine' in the way that the sort of stuff described in the OP's article is). It's more that cops are targeting women who are doing something illegal (say they're driving without a license or are under the influence or are involved in sex work etc.) and basically coercing them into sex with the implicit (or explicit) threat of arrest. Posing 'armed self-defense' as a "solution" to these kinds of incidents literally just doesn't even make any practical sense to the point that it suggests the people formulating this 'solution' haven't even bothered to take two seconds to try to understand the problem they are 'addressing'.

Also, in the absence of broader working class struggle, calling for "armed self-defense against the police" or whatever is a really absurd, meaningless slogan in general. Leftists can't just go into working class neighborhoods and will this sort of organization into existence. If you think it's that simple, though, I'm curious why you're not out there putting your 'solution' into practice. I suspect it would give you a much-needed reality check.


1. Afaik sexism wasn't the most prominent problem in the BP.I didn't say it was 'the most prominent problem', but it was certainly a massive problem, and when people start talking about emulating the Black Panthers as a solution to sexual violence, it seems like a pretty relevant point. Here's one account by a female member who came up against the sexist culture within the organization (https://libcom.org/history/why-i-joined-party-africana-womanist-reflection) (linking this is by no means an endorsement of her broader political perspective btw, which imo is absolute shit).


This strikes me as the kind of thing that gets circulated around small leftist cliques so they can disavow any movement that existed in the working poor and black/latino communities. Which ironically enough, if they are sexists it is partially because leftists only want to fight sexism and heterosexism in safe communities (not ones where it is more pronounced). And since you took the time to insult me, I'd like to equate you with a Dan Savage (someone who some members of this board have defended), a man who blames heterosexism largely on minorities because they are not open to gay marriage and such. Because seriously its not as if there are LGBTQ minorities who are poor who are struggling to see why you would abandon them for the point of political posturing.This is honestly such a bizarre/incoherent rant that I'm not even going to respond to it except to say that your choice to compare me to Dan Savage clearly exposes you as a raving anti-Seattleite bigot. :mad:

I actually hate Dan Savage with a fiery burning passion, just for the record.


And being that this is an issue which disproportionately affects women, and most likely poor women and women of color, it does bother me that the concept (not the particular practice of the black panthers) is not something that you would consider. Maybe you want to talk about the police and call them fuckers and all that, but I'd prefer if the women who were being affected were organized against the police and frankly I don't think I could disavow whatever their actions were.I'd prefer a lot of things, but reality is often not as we'd prefer it and peddling some impotent slogan about 'armed self defense against the police' (that has no organic basis among the working class atm, in addition to making absolutely zero practical sense in relation to the kinds of incidents in question) does nothing to change that.

[ℂᵒиѕẗяᵤкт]

I recommend this thread to anyone who has ever questioned how monstrous the police are by design. So apparently rape is justified if a woman doesn't regard every random utterance falling out of the front of a cop's asshole head as a lawful order.

[Ocean Seal]

I'm not sure you even understand the problem here in the first place... It isn't that cops are coming into working class neighborhoods, busting down doors, and forcibly raping random women (although I'd imagine this does happen, I don't think it is 'routine' in the way that the sort of stuff described in the OP's article is). It's more that cops are targeting women who are doing something illegal (say they're driving without a license or are under the influence or are involved in sex work etc.) and basically coercing them into sex with the implicit (or explicit) threat of arrest. Posing 'armed self-defense' as a "solution" to these kinds of incidents literally just doesn't even make any practical sense to the point that it suggests the people formulating this 'solution' haven't even bothered to take two seconds to try to understand the problem they are 'addressing'.

Also, in the absence of broader working class struggle, calling for "armed self-defense against the police" or whatever is a really absurd, meaningless slogan in general. Leftists can't just go into working class neighborhoods and will this sort of organization into existence. If you think it's that simple, though, I'm curious why you're not out there putting your 'solution' into practice. I suspect it would give you a much-needed reality check.

Again your approach says it all. I didn't mention anything about "leftists" doing anything. We endorse the self defense of workers against the cops. If they choose to mobilize their communities against rape we support that. Secondly, I understood that this problem occured when the police had some sort of legal leverage (either manufactured or real) over these women. For example, having drugs, participating in sex work, etc., but I also assumed that the coercion had little to do with choice, in that the women were raped in one way or another regardless of whether or not they choose to be arrested. Again please stop telling me to get a reality check, because if you want a reality check please start casting your ballot for the democrats.



I didn't say it was 'the most prominent problem', but it was certainly a massive problem, and when people start talking about emulating the Black Panthers as a solution to sexual violence, it seems like a pretty relevant point. Here's one account by a female member who came up against the sexist culture within the organization (https://libcom.org/history/why-i-joined-party-africana-womanist-reflection) (linking this is by no means an endorsement of her broader political perspective btw, which imo is absolute shit).

Although in the next section you admit to have glossed over my post, you fail to do so in this one. Although I suspect we disagree on the political value of the panthers, I stated that we should embody a principle rather than the organization itself. If I told you that there was an organization of women of color whistleblowers that protected other women from police sexual abuse what would you say about that organization?


This is honestly such a bizarre/incoherent rant that I'm not even going to respond to it except to say that your choice to compare me to Dan Savage clearly exposes you as a raving anti-Seattleite bigot. :mad:

I actually hate Dan Savage with a fiery burning passion, just for the record.

If you are interested I'll clarify. When you decide to make the rules for oppressed people so that they fall neatly within your ideological view of what "radicalized poor people of color" look like, you embody a counter-revolutionary view point. If people are resisting oppression, but you are unhappy with how they act when they resist (ie: holding guns, recruiting from churches, looting the bourgeoisie, talking to supermarket workers about giving out excess food, not devoting enough energy to the sophisticated theoretical points that you believe in).


I'd prefer a lot of things, but reality is often not as we'd prefer it and peddling some impotent slogan about 'armed self defense against the police' (that has no organic basis among the working class atm, in addition to making absolutely zero practical sense in relation to the kinds of incidents in question) does nothing to change that.
In a country where you can buy guns cheaper than a couple of meals, I don't think you can rule out armed self-defense against the police.

[cyu]

Border patrol also seems to believe that if you break immigration laws, your life is forfeit, and they have the right to kill you as they please.

[tachosomoza]

Border patrol also seems to believe that if you break immigration laws, your life is forfeit, and they have the right to kill you as they please.

For all practical intents and purposes, they do. All they have to do is mention drug smuggling and they're turned into a national hero.