Originally posted by
[email protected] 6 2004, 09:09 PM
Yeah, Jordan and Syria violently invaded Israel in 1967, after Israel destroyed the Egyptian Air force, because the Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian armies mobilized along Israel's narrow and seemingly indefensible borders in preparation for a massive invasion.
Let's not exagerate or ignore facts. Not only is the armies simply lining up and threatening Israel a bit of a fabrication, it is completely convenient of you to forget(ignore?) that poor defenseless Israel had already done much more than threaten Nasser for making the mistake of wanting Egypt to control its own resources. Or ignore that loads of Arab refugees were fleeing to Jordan, Egypt, and Syria after Israel had driven so many of them out.
Some being better than nothing, and considerably better than being given bullets coming at high velocity from an Israeli assault rifle.
Really, you think in the long run it will be better? Do you also think life would have been better for the Palestinians if Arafat accepted the Camp David Accords?
The first war ahh yes, in 1948 when five Arab countries launched a war against a one-day-old Israel, and indeed the result was the creation of a Jewish State slightly larger than that which was proposed by the 1947 United Nations Resolution. What remained of that almost-created second Arab Palestinian State was gobbled up by Egypt occupying the Gaza Strip and by Trans-Jordan occupying Judea-Samaria a.k.a. the "West Bank" of the Jordan River and Jerusalem.
Hmm Israel’s the real baddy in that one…
Once again you fail to even think about mentioning Israel's plans of conquering all of Palestine, driving out all of the Arabs, and even possibly collaborating with the British who were still oppressing Arab nations. Would you really expect them to do anything other than invade?
yes, entirely, but you try and convince the rest of the Israeli people that they should give up seemingly their only defence against invasion, from neighbouring Arab nations, who have shown quite an aptitude for invasion in the past.
The hypocrisy here is mindblowing.
yes after her neighbouring Arab nations all lined up their armies and were all saying that they would drive the Jews into the sea. And you will note that the Israeli’s bombed the Egyptian Air force, they did not invade anyone, they did not attack Jordan, they did not attack Syria, yet both of these nations decided to invade Israel.
So bombing the Egyptian air force isn't a big deal? Or their role in the invasion of Egypt during the so called Suiz Crisis? Syria and Jordan decided to joint attack Israel, they were having huge refugee problems because of Israel's racism. And again, that excuse that the Arab armies were right by Israel's border threatening them is bullshit.
Wrong again, 400,000 refugees left Israel just before the start of the 1948 war, and the fact that most of the Arabs/Palestinians were encouraged to leave by the Arab World itself. The reason why they left is because of the threat of invasion from the rest of the Arab world.. so what were you saying? Ohh yes: - Israel since even before its formation was built on occupying all of Palestine and driving out all or most of the Arabs.
I think you need to hit the history books.
You really have proven your own cluelessness. You should read something that isn't a complete fabrication. What next? Israel really did plan to give more than 90% of its occupied territories from Post-67 to Arafat during the Camp David Accords? Joan Peters is a reliable source? Rule 1: Be able to distinguish propaganda from reality, the evidence is easy to find. Since the 30's, Zionist settlers were purposefully attacking Arab civillians, and destroying homes. Once the state of Israel was formed, they immediately began to drive out Arabs.
"If Zionist intellectuals and leaders ignored the Arab dilemma, it was chiefly because they knew that this problem had no solution within the Zionist way of thinking…. [I]n general both sides understood each other well and knew that the implementation of Zionism could be only at the expense of the Palestinian Arabs." - Zeev Sternhell
"Disappearing' the Arabs lay at the heart of the Zionist dream, and was also a necessary condition of its existence…. With few exceptions, none of the Zionists disputed the desirability of forced transfer - or its morality." - Tom Segev
"The fear of territorial displacement and dispossession... was to be the chief motor of Arab antagonism to Zionism." - Benny Morris
"From the outset, Zionism sought to employ force in order to realize national aspirations," - Yosef Gorny
"...social order of the Yishuv was built on the ethos of a frontier society, in which a pioneering-settlement model set the tone." - Sasson Sofer
"Zionism after all is merely the attempt by the European Jew to build his national life on the soil of Palestine in much the same way as the American settler developed the West. So the American will give the Jewish settler in Palestine the benefit of the doubt, and regard the Arab as the aboriginal who must go down before the march of progress." - Richard Crossman :o
Go read up on some works by Norman Finkelstein. He addressess all of these quotes. And the last thing the Arab nations wanted was for the Palestinians to give them a massive refugee crisis. That was complete propaganda released by Israel to cover up what it was doing. Israel had carried out more than seven massacres during the so called "War of Independence." They drove out more than 700,000 Palestinians. For such an arrogant person, I am surprised you would use such absurd arguements.
Indeed, I whole heartedly agree with you, but when you get down to it they had the chanse to make a Palestinian state, but did they do it? Of course not. I of course refer to, 1949-67 when all of Judea-Samaria [West Bank & Jerusalem] and Gaza ... were 100% under Arab [Jordanian & Egyptian] control, no effort was EVER made to create a second Palestinian State for the Arabs living there. Does that surprise you, that perhaps the Israeli’s are no worse than the Arabs? Or do your rather cute little bias’s cloud your vision to any Arab wrong doing to the Palestinian peoples?
I wouldn't say Nasser was oppressive to Palestinians, but there is no doubt most Arab rulers didn't care about them. King Hussein of Jordan used to massacre Palestinian refugees all the time.
So have the Israeli’s and several different points.
Really? Which ones? I hope your not going to mention those 'deals' to create a Israeli puppet state with that joker Arafat. :rolleyes:
Yeah and stop strapping explosives to teenagers and telling them to get on packed school bus’s and blowing up a whole load of kids. If rhetoric was argument we would all have to bow to your supremacy.
Frankly, most of those attacks have nothing to do with the families that get their homes destroyed all of the time. They are carried out by groups like Hamas. And ironically, Hamas used to be backed by Israel. And besides that, most of those suicide bombings by Hamas have been in direct response to Israel assassinating their leaders, and Israeli leaders knew full well there would be a violent response. They wanted it! They knew they would be able to justify more punishments when something like that happens.
Are you really completely brain dead or is this just for my benefit? Sharon proposed this deal and only survived a vote of no confidence by the skin of his teeth.
Do you honestly think that matters? Sharon isn't exactly a law-abiding individual, most of his plans in his invasion of Lebanon were in complete disregard for Israel's plans on the operation.
Actually, no he doesn’t you see Israel is what we call a “democracy”, in a democracy you have petty little irritations like having to convince a parliament or government to pass laws or bills, rather like a national assembly. Which means that Sharon has to convince all these other politicians to do what he tells them.
God its like talking to a 10 year old…
Just like he had to seek a parliament's approval to lead Israeli forces far into Beirut? Or to massacre the Sabra/Shatilla refugee camp? What makes you think the Israeli parliament would bother accpeting this deal if it was something even remotely reasonable?
No you whined about it not being enough, completely failing to recognise that in the current political climate of Israel, being as it is a democracy, this is the maximum which can be achieved that this point. Its called a start.
With this attitude, I would imagine the Civil Rights Movement would have never happened in the U.S. Accepting 'just a little' in the long-run will only destroy the possibility of better deals.
How is both sides shooting at each other and blowing each other up making progress, which you have advocated in this thread, over negotiation.
Whatever you think of violence, the resistance of the Palestinians has greatly hampered Israeli expansion, which would be much greater had they not been so rebellious.
Is this speculation is the one and only point you have? Well I’m sorry but you have no proof to suggest that once a deal is made that Israeli tanks will be running over homes in the west bank. In fact that is highly unlikely you see the whole point of these talks are to END the fighting, and the need for such tanks.
If we were talking about ending the fighting the answer would be simple, and I have said it over and over. From the very beginning, the Palestinians have focused on Jewish settlements. Until a real solution is made to stop those, the fighting will continue. The Palestinians have made their message clear on this one, Israel knows it, that's why they don't want to accept a plan. They don't want peace. Why else would Israel have rejected the 2002 Saudi Peace Plan, which was completely in favor of Israel?
I suggest you go away and read a book on this conflict, because you are in dire need of it.
I suggest you cut back on using the claims of Israeli leaders for your sources, which is what most of your arguement is based on.
My god, if I ever see someone so blindly taken in by obvious propaganda again, it will be a mirical, you must be a one off. Which has been mixed in with such shocking idiocy, to make a an incoherant babble which is equil to no less than a mixtue of Bush and chimp.
Let's not exagerate or ignore facts.
These are well know and recorded facts, that President Nasser mobilized units in the Sinai, and closed the Gulf of Aqaba to Israel. i dont think anyone disputes that this caused the preemptive strike by Israel on Arab air targets. But you say that I am exagurating, ignoring and fabricating facts? Or maybe you just dont know any facts? The latter is the obvious answer.
Or ignore that loads of Arab refugees were fleeing to Jordan, Egypt, and Syria after Israel had driven so many of them out.
Actually I think you will find they left because war was obviously coming, the Arab nations saying they would drive the jews into the sea, and sending troops to the borders of Israel sort of gives it away. And if they were driving them out why does Israel now have an arab population of over 1,000,000?
Really, you think in the long run it will be better?
You are asking me what would be better peace or war...? What kind of bloodthirsty fuckwit are you?
Do you also think life would have been better for the Palestinians if Arafat accepted the Camp David Accords?
Unfortunatly I dont have the ability to read a future which has and never will happen so I couldn't tell you.
Once again you fail to even think about mentioning Israel's plans of conquering all of Palestine
LOL do you actually know what Palestine is? Origionally it all of Israel + all of Jordan, it would be a bit tricky to conquer all of Jordan, again you prove to have little understanding about the history, or even the geography of the conflict.
and even possibly collaborating with the British who were still oppressing Arab nations. Would you really expect them to do anything other than invade?
Err i think you will frind that when Israel first came into being the jewish Settlers were fighting a gurilla style war with the British and formed Hagana. You really are such a dumbass its shocking, you dont seem to research anything you say, you make this way too easy.
Would you really expect them to do anything other than invade?
Invade a 1 day country for what crime? Its very existance? Very offensive that, Hitler also hated jews for their very existance, your not advcating that attrocity as well are you?
The hypocrisy here is mindblowing.
How is striking the air power of a nation who's openly stated they want your destruction and mobalised along your borders, hypocritical? It sounds like good survival stratagy to me, or perhaps learn to swim, after all the arabs did say they would drive the jews into the sea.
So bombing the Egyptian air force isn't a big deal?
No its a very big deal.
Or their role in the invasion of Egypt during the so called Suiz Crisis?
Which happened over a decade earlier? Hardly a short term cause, especially as during the late 50's and early 60's a period of calm had occured, not even a long term cause really.
Syria and Jordan decided to joint attack Israel,
Yeah a little bit of extra territory and wiping out a few jews never hurt.
they were having huge refugee problems because of Israel's racism.
I have already delt with this bullshit.
And again, that excuse that the Arab armies were right by Israel's border threatening them is bullshit.
You really are a dumbass, these are well established facts.
Since the 30's, Zionist settlers were purposefully attacking Arab civillians, and destroying homes.
Just as the Arabs had been doing to them, ever heard of the Hebron massacres of 1929 and later during the 1936-39 "Arab Revolt"?
Once the state of Israel was formed, they immediately began to drive out Arabs.
When will you be able to distinuish between a refugee fleeing from war and practiaclly genocide? because your ignorace is getting very boring.
And I could comment on your list of statements, and I could just as easily use Google and find 100's of similar quotes which disprove them, they dont mean shit.
They drove out more than 700,000 Palestinians.
LOL what a heap of bulshit. The UN put it at around 400,000 refugee's fled from impending war in Israel in days just before its founding, where you get that extra 300,000 from is amazing.
And ironically, Hamas used to be backed by Israel. And besides that, most of those suicide bombings by Hamas have been in direct response to Israel assassinating their leaders, and Israeli leaders knew full well there would be a violent response.
Which came first the chicken or the egg?
Do you honestly think that matters?
Well it proves that he could only just get away with that tiny start of a deal, any more would have been failure, which entirley proves my point.
Sharon isn't exactly a law-abiding individual
No one claimed he is...
What makes you think the Israeli parliament would bother accpeting this deal if it was something even remotely reasonable?
Thats the whole point they wont, thats why it has to be built up rather than given in one big go, I will say it again, its a start.
With this attitude, I would imagine the Civil Rights Movement would have never happened in the U.S. Accepting 'just a little' in the long-run will only destroy the possibility of better deals.
You clearly have a very limmited view of political emansipation in history. The political, social and economic rights which are universally enjoyed in the UK came about from a century of small almost insignificant parlimentay reforms.
Whatever you think of violence, the resistance of the Palestinians has greatly hampered Israeli expansion,
It has also hampered the creation of a Palestinian state, the Oslo peace talks dsintergrated because of continued suicide attacks from Palestinian terrorists/freedom fighters.
Until a real solution is made to stop those, the fighting will continue.
But real progress cannot be made until building blocks like this are made to actually start the process to getting such reforms.
I give up on you I really do, when you and others like you, put down the book of pure anti-semetic propaganda , then maybe some progress to ending this conflict. but unfortunatly the world is full of ignorant idiots.