Is rebellion good? Think Rosa Parks and Satan, our Lady and Mistress.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Is rebellion good? Think Rosa Parks and Satan, our Lady and Mistress.

Matthew 10: 16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Michael+Angelo's+Eden+Vatican+collection& biw=1014&bih=519&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=9CYX VPXsKI-VjALRvYC4Cw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ (https://www.google.ca/search?q=Michael+Angelo%27s+Eden+Vatican+collectio n&biw=1014&bih=519&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=9CYXVPXsKI-VjALRvYC4Cw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ)


Both of the females named, Satan and Rosa Parks, are just two of many examples that show where rebellion has improved humanity and can be used to fight evil.

They would have liked this fast marching tune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STiuregSvHg


Is raising hell a good idea?

=================================

To women.

If raising hell is a good idea, why are you sitting on your hands and not being the good citizen you should be in terms of pushing for equality?

You are the majority.

Has the shame that your despicable religion wrongly created in you killed your pride?

Hell, we have a Gay Pride Parade and they are a minute percentage of the population.

How about a Woman Pride Parade? Or can you not muster your fellow oppressed?

Or are you, --- analogically speaking, --- waiting for the white men at the cool front of the bus to politely ask you to change seats with them?
=============================
=============================

To men of the Abrahamic cults. Christians, Catholics and Muslims.

Remember what God said. “He shall rule over you”.

Why are you men not ruling properly and allowing your charges to shirk their duty to society in not demanding equality?

Why are you sitting on your hands? Should a ruler not rule and order a just thing?

He shall rule over you says that you are ultimately responsible for your wife’s shirking of her duty.

Do get busy all of you Abrahamic men. Christians, Catholics and Muslims.

Justice says that equality is overdue thanks to your lazy wives. Raise a little hell on her buttock, politically speaking, that is.

It is your duty to society and especially to your fellow men. Women have been our burden long enough. Fuck God. Let us give women their due.

========================================

To all.

Change the labels in this quote to women, minorities, gays or children being brainwashed by religions and it shows what we should be thinking and doing for each other.

"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”

My friends.

Religion came for our women a long time ago and still has them as captive to barbaric immoral non-equality thinking.

Should we not try to get them back?

Regards
DL

[Astarte]

Isn't preaching against the rules of revleft? Would not this be considered preaching, quite explicitly?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Isn't preaching against the rules of revleft? Would not this be considered preaching, quite explicitly?

What God am I advocating for?

Regards
DL

[Rusty Shackleford]

Parksian Satanism?

[consuming negativity]

Preaching or not, I really am not sure what point is being made here. However, Mao Zedong would be in agreement with you, OP, that it is right to rebel [against reactionaries].

[Creative Destruction]

your posts are as unwieldy and lame as they are on TalkRational.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Preaching or not, I really am not sure what point is being made here. However, Mao Zedong would be in agreement with you, OP, that it is right to rebel [against reactionaries].

Rosa would not have had a chance then if she would have tried to change the Chinese thinking.

God had the same Chinese mind set. What does that tell you?

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Parksian Satanism?

??

Is that good?

Regards
DL

[consuming negativity]

Rosa would not have had a chance then if she would have tried to change the Chinese thinking.

God had the same Chinese mind set. What does that tell you?

Regards
DL

Nothing. I don't see what it is that you see, and you haven't articulated it clearly enough for me to be able to take a stab at it. I just don't know the things you do and I don't have the same connections in my head that you do. I'm sure that there's something valid to what you're trying to communicate to us. But I have no idea what you're getting at.

[Palmares]

raising hell is a good idea

Fuck yeah! Hail satan! :w00t:

Didn't really understand the other stuff. More old testament sacrificial quotes might lively up the vibe of it.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

What is the "Chinese mindset"? What sets the Chinese apart from Americans in regards to the ability to change their way of thinking?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Nothing. I don't see what it is that you see, and you haven't articulated it clearly enough for me to be able to take a stab at it. I just don't know the things you do and I don't have the same connections in my head that you do. I'm sure that there's something valid to what you're trying to communicate to us. But I have no idea what you're getting at.

I am saying that rebellion is good when the adversary is an oppressive one.

That is the moral of both Rosa parks here on earth and of Satan in heaven.

Both were oppressed by immoral systems and both were right to rebel.

Christians got it wrong way back when and that is likely why Gnostic Christians invented the demiurge.

Jews and Gnostic Christians recognize the Jewish myth as one where both man and God come out of Eden elevated. Christians reversed the original moral of the story and made both man and God into losers.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

What is the "Chinese mindset"? What sets the Chinese apart from Americans in regards to the ability to change their way of thinking?

You do know that China is a communist regime. Right?

Tiananmen square should be all I need say to show the difference in mind set.

Regards
DL

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

No I don't think thats all you need to say, your statement is coming off as kind of racist, but I'm assuming that's not intentional. Do you think there is something intrinsic about the Chinese that prevents them from changing their way of thinking? I don't think the government in china is all that different from the government in this country in the ways they deal with dissent. Do you think if a social movement grew powerful enough here in the US to threaten the ruling system that the government would refrain from using massive amounts of force to deal with it? Do you think that this hasn't already happened in our history?

[Palmares]

Seriously though, what is this thread about?

Rosa Parks and Satan are rebels?

And there's something wrong with the "Chinese mindset"? I'm guessing you're not talking about Chinese restaurants.

Could you clarify all this, otherwise ... well, noone will respond to this thread intelligently beyond it's incomprehensible.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

No I don't think thats all you need to say, your statement is coming off as kind of racist, but I'm assuming that's not intentional. Do you think there is something intrinsic about the Chinese that prevents them from changing their way of thinking? I don't think the government in china is all that different from the government in this country in the ways they deal with dissent. Do you think if a social movement grew powerful enough here in the US to threaten the ruling system that the government would refrain from using massive amounts of force to deal with it? Do you think that this hasn't already happened in our history?

There is nothing special or intrinsic in the Chinese.

I see bigger differences in political systems I guess as I see the Chinese telling Hong Cong which candidates they can choose from.

I see all countries as being Oligarchies. Not democracies or anything else.

Money rules and whatever you believe of any government is likely just what they want you to believe. The airways are controlled by money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

Regards
DL

[Lily Briscoe]

it's incomprehensible.

I suspect that's kind of the whole point.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Seriously though, what is this thread about?

Rosa Parks and Satan are rebels?

And there's something wrong with the "Chinese mindset"? I'm guessing you're not talking about Chinese restaurants.

Could you clarify all this, otherwise ... well, noone will respond to this thread intelligently beyond it's incomprehensible.

The post above should take care of the Chinese thing.

What I was hoping to do, and what has not happened, is that some theist would start talking of Satan so that I could hurt his head with logic and reason.

Perhaps that will happen where a Christian does not recognize that I have him beat before he even starts.

That or he will beat my arguments and I will lose the debate. That last is my goal as then I will actually gain something.

Regards
DL

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

There is nothing special or intrinsic in the Chinese.

I see bigger differences in political systems I guess as I see the Chinese telling Hong Cong which candidates they can choose from.

I see all countries as being Oligarchies. Not democracies or anything else.

Money rules and whatever you believe of any government is likely just what they want you to believe. The airways are controlled by money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

Regards
DL

How is that different from elections here in the US though? For sure Chinese elections are a sham, the regime always wins. But what about the US? Can you think of a US election that didn't result in 99% of people voting in favor of the regime? When this happens in North Korea everyone mocks the election for what a joke it clearly is, what do you think prevents Americans from realizing what a joke their own elections are? It seems to me that rebellion is as much of a foreign concept here in the US as it is in China, regardless of people like Rosa Parks

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

How is that different from elections here in the US though? For sure Chinese elections are a sham, the regime always wins. But what about the US? Can you think of a US election that didn't result in 99% of people voting in favor of the regime? When this happens in North Korea everyone mocks the election for what a joke it clearly is, what do you think prevents Americans from realizing what a joke their own elections are? It seems to me that rebellion is as much of a foreign concept here in the US as it is in China, regardless of people like Rosa Parks

I agree that most, if not all elections, are contrived and controlled by money men. In China they know who is promoting who. In the West, we hide who is controlling or promoting who. Sort of.

We in the West just try to hide the fact so that we can say we are free. Those who do are living in as big a delusion as any theist. The money men know if they want to send the country to the right or left and you can bet they get their way.

Regards
DL

[Rusty Shackleford]

??

Is that good?

Regards
DL

I'm just trying to make sense of what you are advocating.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

If you accept the premise that God is real then fundamentally rebelling against God is wrong. Why? Because God says so. Morality, right and wrong, are no longer subjective concepts developed by biological human minds within the material conditions that they inhabit but instead are preordained by the existence of a being that has decided all of that for us. So you can say objectively that the Kingdom of Heaven is inherently good and to rebel against it is inherently bad because God told us so. Interpretations to the contrary are flawed because they cannot challenge or dispute the omnipotence of God.

Of course, God is not real, neither is Satan, and so the whole thing is kind of a moot point. Still, the mythology of rebellion in various pantheons has always been fascinating, Zeus leading the Greek Gods to overthrow the Titans is a good example.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I'm just trying to make sense of what you are advocating.

Oh.

Questioning might be better than using terms I do not recognize.

Care to talk of Satan and the good she brought to mankind?

Is that why God let's her roam freely?

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

If you accept the premise that God is real then fundamentally rebelling against God is wrong. Why? Because God says so. Morality, right and wrong, are no longer subjective concepts developed by biological human minds within the material conditions that they inhabit but instead are preordained by the existence of a being that has decided all of that for us. So you can say objectively that the Kingdom of Heaven is inherently good and to rebel against it is inherently bad because God told us so. Interpretations to the contrary are flawed because they cannot challenge or dispute the omnipotence of God.

Of course, God is not real, neither is Satan, and so the whole thing is kind of a moot point. Still, the mythology of rebellion in various pantheons has always been fascinating, Zeus leading the Greek Gods to overthrow the Titans is a good example.

Perfect except for that small logical fallacy, "God is not real", but it is quite allowable given the whole post.

Well done.

If what you say of those who accept the premise of a real God, is true, and logic says it is, then believers need to tell us why Satan is running around loose after being sentenced by God to hell.

This situation is like a human judge letting a mass murderer out on a weekend pass.

Regards
DL

[Magón]

The problem is, you're not making sense your OP is just a bunch of babbling. So people want to know what you're about, where you're coming from. You're not making your views clear enough

[Buzzard]

Even if what you said in the OP meant what you said it did ''I am saying that rebellion is good when the adversary is an oppressive one.'' why does that statement need a thread, when that itself is a common idea among the left. Because frankly the rest was a bunch of incomprehensible religous babble

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Even if what you said in the OP meant what you said it did ''I am saying that rebellion is good when the adversary is an oppressive one.'' why does that statement need a thread, when that itself is a common idea among the left. Because frankly the rest was a bunch of incomprehensible religous babble


It depends on the level of oppression.

It seems that instincts show us to rebel even against those who do not oppress much. It may be a survival instinct that shows us that we are independent thinkers and should act that way instead of like sheep.

Have you heard of the terrible two's.

We have no argument on rebelling against only immoral oppressors.

To your last.

If you do not like that I speak of religion then you should get the hell out of my thread in this religious section of the forum.

Next time, if we speak again, get the quote whose words you are referring to.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Magón (http://www.revleft.com/vb/rebellion-goodi-think-t190558/member.php?u=30079)

Apologies that I could not catch your post to quote back.

Lets chat and clear things up then.

Did Rosa and Satan do well by mankind?

Regards
DL

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

'Level of oppression' seem like it could be pretty subjective. People have a right to rebel, whether you can convince others to join you in rebellion is your problem. Satan and Rosa Parks were both justified, but young children are probably also justified as well. Humans don't seem predisposed to taking orders, which is why it takes so much time and effort to teach people the ins and outs of submission to authority. In the west it takes a solid 18 years in conjunction with constant refresher courses via work, the family and the state. Even then it doesn't actually hold, people rebel in any way they can; sleeping at work, cheating on their spouses, consuming illegal substances, etc, etc.

Its right to rebel, period.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

'Level of oppression' seem like it could be pretty subjective. People have a right to rebel, whether you can convince others to join you in rebellion is your problem. Satan and Rosa Parks were both justified, but young children are probably also justified as well. Humans don't seem predisposed to taking orders, which is why it takes so much time and effort to teach people the ins and outs of submission to authority. In the west it takes a solid 18 years in conjunction with constant refresher courses via work, the family and the state. Even then it doesn't actually hold, people rebel in any way they can; sleeping at work, cheating on their spouses, consuming illegal substances, etc, etc.

Its right to rebel, period.

No argument and yes, we should all try to find something to rebel against.

That is what drives progress.

Regards
DL

[Magón]

Magón (http://www.revleft.com/vb/rebellion-goodi-think-t190558/member.php?u=30079)

Apologies that I could not catch your post to quote back.

Lets chat and clear things up then.

Did Rosa and Satan do well by mankind?

Regards
DL

Man, what are you talking about? Where are you even coming from, with all this?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Stoned guy thinks Satan is p. cool and I think he's right.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Magón (http://www.revleft.com/vb/rebellion-goodi-think-t190558/member.php?u=30079)

Strange how I cannot pick up your quote.

If you want to know where I am coming from then opine on the O.P.. or answer my last really simple question.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Stoned guy thinks Satan is p. cool and I think he's right.

The mythical one is cool. The real one does not exist.

You may want to ignore our friend. He may not be able to read.

Regards
DL

[Magón]

Magón (http://www.revleft.com/vb/rebellion-goodi-think-t190558/member.php?u=30079)

Strange how I cannot pick up your quote.

If you want to know where I am coming from then opine on the O.P.. or answer my last really simple question.

Regards
DL

I did read the OP, it made no sense.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Then answer my simple question to you or go away.

Regards
DL

[Magón]

Then answer my simple question to you or go away.

Regards
DL

Satan isn't real, it's just a character in a book, and Rosa Parks did alright, I guess. She did a little thing, that blew up into a bigger thing, so what did she do wrong?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Nothing.

I did not indicate that she did anything wrong. The indicated the opposite in fact.

I know that Satan is not real. I have to see her as real if I am to discuss her with theists.

They think her evil while I think she did well by us. Mythically speaking that is.

Regards
DL

[Astarte]

What God am I advocating for?

Regards
DL

Who cares what fucking god you are advocating for, it is clear though that you are trying to preach a worldview based on Abrahamic characters, themes and personalities.

Frankly, I think you chewed up a bunch of crap, have partially digested it and now are trying to defecate it out here while expecting people to be mystified by it. It's fucking lame. Sorry.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

you're in OI idiot, this user has confined his entire post history to this forum. what are you expecting

[Astarte]

you're in OI idiot, this user has confined his entire post history to this forum. what are you expecting

What's the need to call me an "idiot", [retracted]? Before "che-lives" (the old revleft irc channel) was shut down I was there practically every day and preaching was forbidden. Excuse me for [retracted] forgetting that preaching was not banned in OI because I don't use this [retracted] forum every day of my [retracted] life like some [retracted] [retracted] do, ya [retracted].

You really shouldn't arbitrarily insult people for forgetting a certain section of a certain forum has rules unlike the rest of the forum. That being said, I think you owe me an apology.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I was just joking

[Michaelea]

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[Sol Invictus]

What I believe OP is referring to, is that he is a Gnostic and would like to put his Gnostic view into political perspective. Gnostics believe that the world and the physical universe were actually created by an Evil God, which they call the demiurge, as an entrapment of the true essence of spirit, which is ruled over by the True God. Of course the Gnostics identified the demiurge with Satan, and stated that he created this world as a means of trapping the essence of God into imperfect flesh.

They usually performs acts of sexual and self destructiveness as means to rebel against the flesh.

I don't know how this could be put into a political perspective really. Gnosticism, not my cup of tea.

[Dave B]

I think when looking Gnosticism you have start with the root basic idea, in contrast to the opposing idea; and then look at the evolutionary spectrum of ideas and interpretations of Gnosticism in particular and its antagonists.

Bearing in mind that we get most of our history ideas of Gnosticism from the historically victorious antagonists eg the Paulinists and modern Christians.

Eg obey the emperor, the divine right of kings and an omnipotent god.

And attempt to make class socio-economic historical materialist analysis of the whole thing.

Basic, root or ‘narrow’ origin of Gnosticism is that, first, the ‘world’ socio economic system in the first century Roman empire etc was personified as the work of satan and his helpers.

This root Gnosticism is found inside the Gospel documents, as well as in the ‘leftwing’ documents of the new testament particularly in letter of James and the first letter of John.

To put it in a modern historical context all you need to do is to substitute ‘capitalist system’ for the word ‘world’ and God (following Feuerbach’s Essence of Christianity) as a personification and projection of communistic ideals and with a sympathy for the oppressed and you have;

James 4


Do you not know that friendship with the capitalist system is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the capitalist system makes himself an enemy of God.



And for instance.

1 John 2;


Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him, because all that is in the world ……. and the arrogance produced by material possessions is not from the Father, but is from the world.

(shameless chopped to just get across the point)

‘The arrogance produced by material possessions’ ?

Who is talking to whom about what?


And that kind of thing is repeated by the raving Maoist who wrote Revelation according to another John.

[The translations of these kind of passages vary considerably which I think is a reflection of their historically contentious nature. Luther and the proto bourgeois Calvinists for instance loathed the James letter as an ‘epistle of straw’.]

It shouldn’t be rocket science to understand that the dispossessed lower classes who formed the constituency of early Christianity like ‘weavers, cobblers and slaves’ etc [eg from Origen] did not love the ‘world’ economic system.

Whilst the Christian ‘revisionist’ members of the ruling class like Paul thought is was just fine.

We can’t be sure who wrote James and John and it is thought unlikely to be the apostles; we should only be interested in them as representatives of the ‘to each according to need leftwing’ of the early Christian ‘international’.

For instance the opposite antagonistic view is put in the letters of Peter, which can internally be demonstrated as not being the work of the apostle Peter.

[eg from the reference to the ‘upsettingly’ delayed ‘before every one now living is dead’ second coming eg 2nd Peter chapter 3]

It is possible or likely that this form of socio economic system hating Gnosticism developed with some into the idea that the whole of the material world itself was evil.

And that the considerable surviving critical material on Gnosticism focused on this extreme interpretation in order to ridicule the rest.

A bit like capitalist ideologues criticising communism by attacking Stalinism and Pol Pot etc.

[Dave B]

I think this root Gnostic idea that the world was ruled by Satan had its pre early Christian antecedents in the fairly popular and widespread first century ‘Jewish Apocalypticism’.

Thus for example;


Jewish apocalypticism holds a doctrine that there are two eras of history: the present era, which is ruled over by evil, …………....



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypticism#Judaism

eg from another random source



These apocalyptic writings claimed to reveal God’s purpose in history. These writings tried to explain why the Jews, who thought of themselves as God’s people, were part of an […imperialistically?…] oppressed nation suffering under ungodly political institutions.

In the words of Robert H. Mounce:


A major role of the apocalypse was to explain why the righteous suffered and why the kingdom of God delayed. ………… and establish righteousness. (The Book of Revelation, The New International Commentary on the New Testament, p. 19)

Apocalyptic writing is usually dualistic in that two opposing supernatural powers, God and Satan, do battle. The outcome of the conflict is rigidly determined — everything moves forward according to a divinely preordained time schedule and purpose. Writers of apocalyptic speculated that the power of Satan controls this evil age and afflicts the righteous through his human and demonic agents….

http://www.gci.org/bible/rev/apocalyptic


The content of this ‘form’ dualism then; is maybe then a theological response by the oppressed to oppression, in this case the oppression of the ruling Roman ‘imperial’ class and their indigenous lackeys, collaborators and Quisling’s etc.

[Although in this case it may be a shared national chauvinist response of the ‘middle and lower classes’ as can be the case in more contemporary examples.]

This ‘same’ dualism appears in the new testament, one example being in Luke 4:5


Then the devil led him up to a high place and showed him in a flash all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “To you I will grant this whole realm—and the glory that goes along with it, for it has been relinquished to me, and I can give it to anyone I wish.



https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+4

However this plagiarized idea, as part of early christianity, crucially made the ebola like species jump; when it also, for the same reasons, ideologically ‘satisfied’ the oppressed condition of the ‘Gentile’ laboring classes in the wider Roman empire Vis-à-vis their own direct ruling class oppressors.

The prolific atheist New Testament academic Bart Erhman also appears to consider it is likely that Jewish apocalypticism had a strong influence on early Christianity.

As well as Greek Cynicism; he also seems to consider the idea that early christianity was also some form of ‘proto- Marxism’.

Greek Cynicism was characterised by a rejection of decadent consumerism, worldly wealth, the state and authority etc etc.

They were a ‘bit’ like our Anarcho-primitivism and CrimethInc.

You can see it in the gospel material once you re-read it with that in mind, Greek Cynicism that is.


What people seem to miss when putting forward their competing theories as to formative ideological contents of early Christianity etc eg Jewish apocalypticism, Greek Cynicism and even Essenism.

Is that it may have been a composite or ‘aggregate’ of all of them.

As well as a complete lack of a class and Marxist historical materialist analysis.

An interesting conflation of Greek Cynicism and proto-Marxism and early Christianity can be found in one of the most famous hostile, pagan and early detailed references to christianity in;

THE PASSING OF PEREGRINUS by the comedian Lucian of Samosata in the middle of the second century.

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/lucian/peregrinus.htm

The critical passage has a more interesting translation in my;

The Cynic Philosophers; From Diogenes to Julian translated by Robert Dobbin, Penguin Classics 2012.

Page 150, on the early Christians;


“ added to which, their first law giver taught them that they were all brothers as soon as they commit the collective crime of repudiating the Greek gods, worshiping that crucified sophist himself and living by his commandments. They despise all worldly goods and consider them common property………