Women's oppression--how far can we come?

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

EDIT: My original post was a pessimistic rant that should never have gone online. Therefore, I've decided to wipe the slate clean and make this thread by asking you al two simpler, more positive questions: In Western capitalist countries, what are some of the most important changes that need to be made to our society to ensure women's equality? What are some tactics leftists should use to secure those gains?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Test tube babies dude.

[Kingfish]

>I hate the way some fathers treat their daughters. We see it everywhere but don't give a damn--the girl being walked down the aisle, the shoes dangling in the car window, the "rules for dating my daughter" memes posted everywhere online. The idea is simple: girls are naive, helpless, and unable to live without the constant protection and supervision of their fathers, and then their husbands.


We have come a huge way in this regard, especially when it comes to the rights of women to gain (and importantly keep property) through their work and through inheritance. Likewise whilst its still not ideal the fact that women can get loans without having to be married is also a sign of progress.


The fact that these things you talk of are relegated to being jokes and quaint traditions rather than social law or a requirement as they once were are very good signs. How many people for instance would let the objections of a father prevent them from marrying now compared to 20-30 years ago for instance.


>It's true that most men are physically stronger than most women. It's also true that many women are manipulated and deceived into entering dangerous relationships. But it makes me fume when people suggest that the answer is treating girls like children for their entire lives. If we taught girls from an early age to fight back, to stand up for themselves, that they can and should be strong and independent, what do you think we could accomplish?

Under the current system not a whole lot as teaching people to be strong and independent is done within the context of the current ideology. For instance this fighting back and independence mentality has more to do with teaching people to compete harder against each other in the workplace and market rather than against the prevailing system or the cult status of “job providers”. Does this mean I think the current system is good or that women should be treated like children? Of course it does not, but it does mean that we need to look for broader solutions.


>Women are unlike many other oppressed groups because some of the worst that they go through is a direct result of their biology. There are real physical limitations that are never going to naturally go away, and it's depressing. We can smash anti-black racism, we can accept and normalize LGBT people, we can radically restructure nearly every aspect of our institutions. But nothing will change the fact that if I want to have kids, I will inevitably be putting a woman through months of pain and discomfort, and then through hours, even days of pure agony, while I do nothing more than bring her some ice chips.


Technology for one will certainly help with this aspect however I think the most important changes will come from the new efficiencies brought about by a collectivised society that isn’t based on the accumulation of profit. This is because once the medical issues of mortality in childbirth are overcome one of the great issues facing women in this area is the disastrous impact it has on their finances and ability to work which in a profit driven system has grave consequences their independence. In a communist society this loss of independence would be greatly diminished if not ended.

>This has been a sore spot for me for a while now. As a white, upper-middle-class American male, I have always felt a nearly pathological amount of guilt for how easy I have it--especially when I see the shit that women put up with every single day. I know it's not my fault, but that doesn't make me feel any better about it. So, what do you think? How far can we come, and what is to be done?


The greater suffering of others doesn’t nullify the suffering in your own life (otherwise beating a person with a hammer would be an effective headache cure) and feeling guilty about it does not help anyone (in fact an overwhelming amount of the greatest revolutionaries both on the anarchist and authoritarian side of things came from relatively privileged backgrounds) . Be wary of letting perfection becoming the enemy of the good we have come very far but still have a long a way to go.

[consuming negativity]

Women are unlike many other oppressed groups because some of the worst that they go through is a direct result of their biology. Menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, menopause--the list goes on and on. There are real physical limitations that are never going to naturally go away, and it's depressing. We can smash anti-black racism, we can accept and normalize LGBT people, we can radically restructure nearly every aspect of our institutions. But nothing will change the fact that if I want to have kids, I will inevitably be putting a woman through months of pain and discomfort, and then through hours, even days of pure agony, while I do nothing more than bring her some ice chips.

Women who have children, generally speaking, want to have children. You aren't putting anyone through anything by agreeing to have sex with someone for the purposes of procreation. And if you're expecting someone to have a child for you even though she doesn't want to, then well, that's not a very good sign.

Also, to touch on the rest of it, stop assuming that everyone is malicious. Maybe those fathers don't think their daughters can't handle things, but they just really care about them and feel obligated to be overly protective. Or they make those jokes not to be serious, but to let their daughters know that they know what is expected of them and that they are consciously choosing to be different. In general, things are just a lot more complicated than what you're presenting. Yes, the worst case scenario does exist, and it is very bad and unfair in many ways, but most cases are not worst cases, and the expected submission of women happens for a lot more reasons than "men think women are lesser and so women are treated lesser". There's reasons for that stuff, and reasons why it's taking time to fix.

I understand your discouragement and pessimism, but I feel is it not warranted.

[Lily Briscoe]

I think the value judgements about the female role in reproduction being something inherently dreadful and negative are pretty misplaced. I mean, yeah, female biology is definitely disadvantageous within the context of class society... But I think structural sexual inequality is primarily a product of the interplay between female biology and class society rather than something inherent to female biology itself.

For instance, you bring up childbirth as an example of "the worst that women go through", but with proper medical care and existing technology, the risks associated with childbirth can be practically eliminated (just as an example (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs348/en/), the World Health Organization estimates that 99% of maternal deaths occur in 'developing countries', which suggests that maternal death is not some inherent byproduct of childbirth itself, but is a result of the conditions in which childbirth occurs).

Anyway, I definitely don't think the establishment of social equality between the sexes is contingent upon eliminating biological differences (if this were the case, women's emancipation would basically be a total pipedream imho... some feminists do actually argue this though, Shulamith Firestone being one example iirc).

Also, I wanted to comment on this, even though the previous poster kind of already touched on it (though I don't quite agree with his response):
But nothing will change the fact that if I want to have kids, I will inevitably be putting a woman through months of pain and discomfort, and then through hours, even days of pure agony...

I don't know anything about you, but I'm going to guess that you aren't exactly in a position where you can clap your hands and summon forth women to 'bare you heirs' (correct me if I'm wrong). Presumably, if you want children without being involved in some sort of coercive relationship, you will have to find a woman who wants them as well (and wants to have them with you). In which case, the whole idea that it is about you 'putting her through it', rather than her doing it because she wants to, seems pretty patronizing. Not trying to contribute to the whole guilt thing you mentioned, but it's probably something to think about...

[Lily Briscoe]

Aaand I've just noticed that you changed the entire OP, so now my post isn't going to make a whole lot of sense (I typed it up the other day, but didn't get around to posting it at the time)... :sleep:

Sorry about that.