Kobane completely encircled by Islamic State

[khad]

You know, I almost didn't want to post this because of the rabid triumphalism regarding the "imminent" demise of the Islamic State at the hands of Shia militias, Kurds, and the new coalition of the willing, but it would be criminal not to report on this, so here it goes.

Back in July, the Islamic State launched an offensive directed at the Kurdish canton of Kobane in north-central Syria. This offensive made limited gains before the front stabilized, and one can easily see why. In August, the Islamic State made moves to liquidate the 3 isolated Syrian Army bases in the Area - Division 17 in Raqqa, Brigade 93 in Ayn Issa, and Tabqa airbase south of Raqqa. These bases were partially evacuated before being overrun.

With those 3 positions no longer blocking the Caliphate and diverting their attention, ISIS has been able to bring the full array of their forces to bear on Kobane.

Within 5 days, they have managed to seize all the villages surrounding Kobane and are now imposing a total siege.

West Kurdistan ‏@WestKurdistan (https://twitter.com/WestKurdistan) Kobani: 5 days ago and now.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bx9fqgCIQAAygbr.jpg:largehttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bx9frDbIgAALpiy.jpg:large


Thousands of refugees are stopped at the border, waiting to get into Turkey


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bx4pW-fIIAAz6Lx.jpg:large


Really, the ball is just in Turkey's court now, and these next few days will be pivotal, though the cynic in me thinks that Erdogan won't be as eager to help the PYD as he did the Barzanites in Iraq, since the PYD is close to the PKK.

[acknowledgements]

It takes a fool to take these guys seriously, but even more of a fool not to be serious with them.

[khad]

Some 60,000 Kurdish refugees came into Turkey today, but I wouldn't say "safely."
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/60000-syrian-kurds-enter-turkey-deputy-pm-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=71963&NewsCatID=352

"As of now, 45,000 Syrian Kurds have have crossed the border and entered Turkish soil from eight entrance points," Numan Kurtulmuş told reporters on Sept. 20.

"No country in the world can take in 45,000 refugees in one night, bring them here unharmed and find them a shelter without a problem. This proves how powerful Turkey is," he added.

Kurtulmuş updated the figure later in the day. '"This is a source of pride for Turkey. Even much richer countries cannot admit 60,000 people in one day," he said, according to Anadolu Agency.

There are reports coming in that ISIS executed 300 YPG/PKK captives in the Turkish town of Akcakale. This is according to statements by Turkish MP Muhammed Çetin (https://twitter.com/Mv_MCetin)

https://twitter.com/Mv_MCetin/status/513389539923361792
http://gundem.bugun.com.tr/isid-kursuna-dizdi-haberi/1265781

If confirmed, this will be the first open acknowledgement of ISIS conducting operations on Turkish soil.

[bricolage]

I am surprised to see Turkey allowing the refugees to cross so easily. why have they changed their approach here? public relations?

[khad]

I am surprised to see Turkey allowing the refugees to cross so easily. why have they changed their approach here? public relations?
The twitter rumor mill today says that parts of the border are being locked down again, citing security concerns. The mass execution near Akcakale has them spooked about possible infiltrators.

Updated map:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bx-xHh5CQAA5qVm.jpg:large

See that patch of green on the other bank of the Euphrates? Those are the "moderate" rebels who've been promising to send help for the past week. Turns out they've been chilling at their start positions, not even bothering to cross the river.

Confirmed multiple sources attest to the arrival of 350 PKK in Kobane since yesterday. Initial reports claimed 3000, but the number was revised down drastically overnight. According to some, these represent the most experienced units that the PKK has, though they are now badly stretched on both Iraqi and Kurdish fronts.

[Red Terror Dr.]

This is terrible. It's as if a time portal has opened and 14th century hordes are entering the 21st century with all their reactionary practices. :ohmy:

[Prometeo liberado]

Oh shit, I thought this was bout Kurt Kobane. Dodged a bullet on that one.(unintended pun):ohmy:

[Devrim]

There are reports coming in that ISIS executed 300 YPG/PKK captives in the Turkish town of Akcakale. This is according to statements by Turkish MP Muhammed Çetin (https://twitter.com/Mv_MCetin)

https://twitter.com/Mv_MCetin/status/513389539923361792
http://gundem.bugun.com.tr/isid-kursuna-dizdi-haberi/1265781

If confirmed, this will be the first open acknowledgement of ISIS conducting operations on Turkish soil.

That's not what it says at all. Do you read turkish or are you just making it up?

Devrim

[Devrim]

I am surprised to see Turkey allowing the refugees to cross so easily. why have they changed their approach here? public relations?

There are 843,779 Syrian refugees already in Turkey. That is the official number for this month. I'd imagine that there are actually more. You see them begging in the street everywhere these days. It's not as if Turkey has only just let refugees in.

Devrim

[consuming negativity]

I am surprised to see Turkey allowing the refugees to cross so easily. why have they changed their approach here? public relations?

Could be a few things. They genuinely don't want people to be fucked over. They fear that treating the Kurds in Iraq/Syria poorly will make the Kurds in Turkey flip out and riot. They fear that treating the Kurds in Iraq/Syria poorly will endanger Turkish business interests. They don't want to be seen as evil for letting people like ISIS massacre refugees. They want the good reputation that comes from allowing large amounts of people to take refuge in their country. Some of the above, all of the above, most of the above and more, could be anything.

[bricolage]

There are 843,779 Syrian refugees already in Turkey. That is the official number for this month. I'd imagine that there are actually more. You see them begging in the street everywhere these days. It's not as if Turkey has only just let refugees in.

Devrim
Yeah, but I thought I'd read that Turkey was going to try and limit that amount of new refugees coming in and potential close the border? Was this not the case?

[Leo]

There are reports coming in that ISIS executed 300 YPG/PKK captives in the Turkish town of Akcakale. That's not what it says at all.

That's been reported to have happened in Kurdish villages in Syria, not in Turkey. It's been reported only by one media group and hasn't been verified yet. It might be true but if it is I think it will be verified by the PKK. They may have hesitated because it might bring demoralization to their front but if it is true, it's too big to hide and will likely mobilze many young Kurds in Turkey who are already attempting to cross the border to join the PYD militia.

In any case, they've claimed that so far 53 ISIS members and 27 PYD members were killed in the Kobane offensive.



I am surprised to see Turkey allowing the refugees to cross so easily. Could be a few things. They genuinely don't want people to be fucked over.

I assure you, that's not and has never been the case with the Turkish or any other state.


They fear that treating the Kurds in Iraq/Syria poorly will make the Kurds in Turkey flip out and riot. They fear that treating the Kurds in Iraq/Syria poorly will endanger Turkish business interests.

The first sentence is true for Syria and the second for Iraq. The PKK has already declared that it will break the peace process if Kobane falls.


They don't want to be seen as evil for letting people like ISIS massacre refugees.

I think it's a bit too late for that. Their alleged sponsorship of the ISIS has been on the Western media, and they've openly admitted that they've negotiated and traded with the ISIS for the Turkish refugees in the Mosul consulate.


They want the good reputation that comes from allowing large amounts of people to take refuge in their country.

After scandals about some of the refuges they've been allowing turning out to be ISIS members going to training camps in Turkey, I think it's a bit too late for that as well.

[Red Commissar]

Really, the ball is just in Turkey's court now, and these next few days will be pivotal, though the cynic in me thinks that Erdogan won't be as eager to help the PYD as he did the Barzanites in Iraq, since the PYD is close to the PKK.

Turkey really didn't do anything in Iraq short of its continued oil operations and sales, which in of themselves are meant to service loans the KRG took out when the national government froze the budget meant for the region back in January.

Government authorities there say that the first country they turned to was Turkey during their August defeats and Turkey did not respond with any sort of military aid or assistance (officially, because of the hostage issue in Mosul but we know there were other issues). Iran was actually the country that responded first if the statements of the government officials are to be believed. Turkey hasn't really done much in the way of weapons and military aid to Iraqi Kurdistan in spite of their influence and significant investments there, and that has been a source of consternation among the political groups there who have close ties to Turkey. There does not even seem to be any indication of clandestine assistance in the same way Turkey has done for Syrian opposition elements.

Turkish relations to PYD due PKK is always going to be frayed regardless of who is in power there. No political figure in Turkey is going to be caught dead being accused of supporting the PKK, especially those in the higher echelons. The attempts at peace with the group by the government were subject to a large amount of scrutiny and criticism.

The crux of the matter is that Turkey is pursuing a strategy in Syria that calls for the end of the Syrian government, and regardless of the extent of its relationship with IS, the Turkish government is not going to endanger its strategy there by weakning the IS to such an extent that Assad benefits (seeing they are among the major anti-government forces there), and that holds for its position on the conflict in Iraq too.

[khad]

A bit of background I wasn't aware of until now: Back only a week ago, Western policy wonks were touting this new Euphrates Volcano command as the latest thing for a so-called "moderate" opposition. This ISIS offensive actually came days after this new command announced its own ambitious plan to reconquer Raqqa.

The offensive was announced on September 10. The ISIS counteroffensive offensive began on September 15.
http://iswsyria.blogspot.fr/2014/09/ypg-and-rebel-forces-challenge-isis-in.html


The Kurdish YPG, Jabhat al-Akrad [The Kurdish Front], and numerous FSA-affiliated rebel groups announced the formation of the “Euphrates Volcano” joint operations room in Northern Aleppo and Raqqa Provinces on September 10, the most significant rebel-YPG coordination to date. The video statement announcing the formation of the operations room declared the intent liberate to Qarah Qawzaq, Sireen, and Jarablus in addition to Manbij, Raqqa, and their surroundings, and called for material support from the international community in the fight against ISIS. The joint force appears to have immediately initiated operations against ISIS, claiming responsibility for a VBIED targeting an ISIS vehicle in the village of Qarah Qawzaq in the northeastern Aleppo countryside on September 11. A second VBIED in the ISIS-held city of Tabqa west of Raqqa went unclaimed, but is likely to have been conducted by groups within the operations room.

rHrj-rMCDrY

After all that hullabaloo over the new YPG+(moderate)Islamist joint operations room in Raqqa, guess who's the first non-Kurdish force to respond?

Syrian Air Force hitting targets south of Kobane.
8LNmRWo-Azo

Also reports indicating air strikes to the West

FSACrimes ‏@FSACrimes2 (https://twitter.com/FSACrimes2) 8m (https://twitter.com/FSACrimes2/status/513761015918759938) Syrian Air Force destroy the Kara Qozak Bridge which link #Manbij (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Manbij?src=hash) to #Kobane (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobane?src=hash). Cutting off #ISIS (https://twitter.com/hashtag/ISIS?src=hash) supply & reinforcement line to Kobane front.

[khad]

Pro-ISIS source 1h ago:

@YazeedMu3awiyaa (https://twitter.com/YazeedMu3awiyaa) 1h (https://twitter.com/YazeedMu3awiyaa/status/513744799787016192) @green_lemonnn (https://twitter.com/green_lemonnn) Assad wage an aisrtike in Qarah Qawzaq bridge, Sarrin and some area under IS today.


Sarrin is another river crossing/town to the south of Kobane.

[khad]

Bizarre line coming out of the official KRG mouthpiece, Rudaw. Claims that Peshmerga need official "permission" to join Kobane defense. I don't think the PKK or Iranian PJAK fighters filed their paperwork with KRG authorities before arriving in Iraq.

http://rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/200920142


ERBIL, Kurdistan Region—The commander of Kurdistan Region’s special Zervani forces said that the Peshmerga are ready to join the fight in Kobane, but that the move needs the agreement of all parties.
“Sending Peshmerga forces to Rojava (Syrian Kurdistan) to defend Kobane needs a political agreement between the Kurdistan Region and the authorities of those areas of Kurdistan,” Aziz Waisi, the commander of the Zeravani Special Forces told Rudaw. “Unless there is such an agreement we can’t take any steps.”

Kurdistan Region’s Peshmerga ministry said on Friday that they would do “all they can to assist the people of Kobane” to halt the onslaught of the Islamic State (IS) on the Kurdish city in northern Syria.

However, Waisi said on Saturday that no Peshmerga units have been sent to join the fight yet.

“We are ready to go and defend Rojava if the PYD accepts,” said Waisi. “We cannot go there without their approval.”

[Red Commissar]

Bizarre line coming out of the official KRG mouthpiece, Rudaw. Claims that Peshmerga need official "permission" to join Kobane defense. I don't think the PKK or Iranian PJAK fighters filed their paperwork with KRG authorities before arriving in Iraq.

They did not need permission because they were already there. Ignoring the fact that their major base, Qandil, is in northern Iraq, Makhmour hosts a major refugee camp for Kurdish refugees from Turkey and is an outpost of sorts for them. They were already there and didn't need permission from anyone to do what they needed to do once fighting started occurring in Makhmour in August- it's a different case here when they have no presence in Syria and will need cooperation from the major political authority there.

Even though the fighters tried to pass themselves off as self-sufficient once they engaged in fighting they were joined up into the logistic trains. If that is not present in Syria then all is going to happen is sending a bunch of bodies with little ammo, and the Iraqi Kurds already learned the hard way what happens when you do that.

There's an additional problem here too. In August the PKK were able to get to the lines but did not have to cross through enemy territory to do so- going from Qandil you cross through the heart of KRG-held land (which they do regularly going between Qandil and Makhmour), and those in Makhmour didn't have to go anywhere. Peshmerga would have to do one of three things

A. Go through Turkey

B. Planes

C. Go through Qamishli

A is probably never going to happen, B is a pipe dream, so that leaves C. Of course, there is a stretch of IS held territory between Qamishli and Kobane Cantons, and Peshmerga would need support and coordination with YPG to ensure a supply route, since it is a territory they are obviously unfamiliar with and are unlikely to get any support from local populace especially areas without Kurds. This is if they ever resolve their political differences which is a different fight altogether.

[khad]

C. Go through Qamishli

A is probably never going to happen, B is a pipe dream, so that leaves C. Of course, there is a stretch of IS held territory between Qamishli and Kobane Cantons, and Peshmerga would need support and coordination with YPG to ensure a supply route, since it is a territory they are obviously unfamiliar with and are unlikely to get any support from local populace especially areas without Kurds. This is if they ever resolve their political differences which is a different fight altogether.
You're ignoring the very obvious option of an attack from Serekani (the westernmost city of Qamishli canton), diverting ISIS attention on the Tel Abyad front. I don't understand why this is so puzzling - you can take pressure off of Kobane by attacking the forces besieging it.

[Red Commissar]

You're ignoring the very obvious option of an attack from Serekani (the westernmost city of Qamishli canton), diverting ISIS attention on the Tel Abyad front. I don't understand why this is so puzzling - you can take pressure off of Kobane by attacking the forces besieging it.

Which would still require one to traverse virtually the whole of the Qamishli region going west. You would still have a mess maintaining supply lines, the Rabia border crossing by road was built as part of a highway system that involved going through Mosul. Without Mosul it requires one to either go south past the dam and through Zumar, which is still unstable, or cross north, which have older roads that aren't conductive to moving large amounts of men and materiel. When the refugees who had left Shingal crossed into Syria under escort of PYD and PKK, those that wanted to return back to Iraq did not do so through Rabia but a crossing further northeast along the border because they did not feel confident they could move a stream of people back and forth there. That border crossing northeast of Rabia is over a river and used to be done completely by small boats until a small makeshift bridge was laid over it.

The result is still the same- if one wants to engage in that you would need the cooperation from who ever is controlling that territory. Otherwise it just comes off as an invasion and it will be difficult to move supplies- supplying the several thousand peshmerga that would be there is a different feat from several hundred fighters. PYD would be able to paint the peshmerga doing a land grab when they were the most vulnerable.

The last time the KRG authorities, or at least Barzani, said they'd send peshmerga into the area it led to the PYD saying that they'd rather not have men, but supplies that were being withheld due to Turkish pressure. And they acquiesced on keeping troops out but continued to keep the supplies out.

If these peshmerga just run over the border and do their thing, PYD can turn around when this is over and blame them for trying to impose their agenda on the region. That's not something they could do with a straight face if they were given permission to come in.

Really the issue is that both of these factions are too pigheaded to do anything without wanting to be the one who is running the show. They don't want to be partners, much less be in a position where they appear subservient or dependent on the other.

[Raquin]

The SAA-YPG alliance in Al-Hasakah province is advancing on Dawla villages in western Hasakah from the direction of Ras al-Ayn. Dawla feels threatened enough to redeploy from Tall Abyad in that direction, possibly halting their advance towards Ain al-Arab/Kobane, at least from that one direction, and perhaps from the Jarablus and Serrin directions as well. IS have never shied from retreating to regroup even if it means losing face, because they know they'll be back in the future anyway.

Anyways Obama launched 14 airstrikes(and some Tomahawk cruise missiles were launched) on Dawla positions in Raqqah(which were abandoned a couple of weeks ago because Obama basically announced the bombing beforehand), al-Hasakah, Deir Ezzor, and Abu Kamal, and 8 on Nusra positions in Idlib, which were hit by Syrian ballistic missiles at the same time. Large amounts of civilians were killed in Raqqah(and almost nobody else - this is why you don't give the people you want to bomb 2 weeks notice so they can hide all their assets and abandon their public HQs) and at least 10 civilians including 6 children in Idlib. Nusra jackasses unlike the Islamic State were caught unaware and already have suffered over 50 casualties, including foreign fighters from the UK and the Netherlands.

[khad]

Nusra jackasses unlike the Islamic State were caught unaware and already have suffered over 50 casualties, including foreign fighters from the UK and the Netherlands.
Yeah, supposedly they were members of the "Khorasan" branch of Nusra, which has been touted in the US news as the greatest immediate threat to domestic security. They're the international operations branch of Nusra.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/u-s-bombs-isis-sites-syria-targets-khorasan-group-n209421
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-airstrikes-hit-khorasan-in-syria-obama-plunges-deep-into-a-messy-war/

An initial report of where the air strikes on ISIS were:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02768sm?ocid=socialflow_twitter

7 Raqqa
5 Tabqa
3 Ayn Issa
3 Tel Abyad

There were 8 strikes on Nusra Front/Khorasan targets in Aleppo/Idlib

[Raquin]

Nope, no help for Ain al-Arab yet.

Mutlu Çiviroglu ‏@mutludc (https://twitter.com/mutludc) 3h (https://twitter.com/mutludc/status/514520262541594624)
Kobane Canton Premier A Moslem: Reports about US airstrikes around #Kobane (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobane?src=hash) are not true. No air strikes in #Kobani (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobani?src=hash) region yet #TwitterKurds (https://twitter.com/hashtag/TwitterKurds?src=hash)

[khad]

Nope, no help for Ain al-Arab yet.
Well, this is what happens when the Islamic State is given every advanced warning possible for the past 2 weeks in order to prepare for this.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-air-strikes-us-attacks-are-failing-to-slow-isis-advance-say-desperate-kurds-in-kobane-9754110.html


But the US-led air strikes which began on Monday have been ineffective, according to the chief of defence for Kobane, Ismat Sheikh Hassan, speaking to The Independent by phone from his base inside Kobane. “They struck empty buildings. Isis fighters used to be there but they left, so they haven’t helped us. If anything, they are now fighting harder to push forward before there are more strikes,” he said.

[Chomskyan]

I feel for the people of Syria greatly. Having foreign powers mess with their country and causing such a humanitarian disaster. I also fear for the minorities being mass murdered by ISIS.

[khad]

Fighting is at the city gates
Galaxy_Wanted (https://twitter.com/Galaxy_Wanted) 4h (https://twitter.com/Galaxy_Wanted/status/515199756885561344) BREAKİNG: 3 hours ago situation around Kobane: IS was 300 meters away from southern entrance,3 km away from east & 5 km away from the West

Today at the border, smoke rising from the city
C4H7tHBLLM0

[khad]

Shells landing in Turkey destroyed a van

DPfWDlqczp0

[Sasha]

KURDISTAN/SYRIA: Anarchists join struggle against ISIS in Kobane

Sep 28 (http://tahriricn.wordpress.com/2014/09/28/kurdistansyria-anarchists-join-struggle-against-isis-in-kobane/)

Posted by tahriricn (http://tahriricn.wordpress.com/author/tahriricn/)

The city of Kobane has been under attack by Daesh (ISIS) fascists for a number of days leading to a mass exodus of Kurds from the city. But many Kurds are now returning to fight and defend the city despite being pushed back at the border by Turkish forces. Inside the border, Kurdish forces along with the Free Syrian Army continue to fight against Daesh (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg8HOZyOLBU).
https://tahriricn.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/byenokvieaanqkh.jpg?w=604 (https://tahriricn.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/byenokvieaanqkh.jpg)Turkish and Syrian Kurds tear down the border fence to cross into Kobane in neighboring Syria. Photo:AFP


Among those going to support and defend the city have been comrades from the Turkish anarchist group DAF (Devrimci Anarşist Faaliyet/Revolutionary Anarchist Action).
https://tahriricn.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/daf_in_kobane_2-69044-1.jpg?w=604 (https://tahriricn.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/daf_in_kobane_2-69044-1.jpg)comrades from DAF join the struggle to defend Kobane


Below is a Statement from Revolutionary Anarchist Action- Devrimci Anarşist Faaliyet (https://www.facebook.com/anarsistfaaliyetorg):
IN SHINGAL, KOBANE AND ALL ROJAVA, ISIS IS DEHAK AND PEOPLE ARE KAWA
In Kurdistan, people are fighting against ISIS, “the procreated violence” given birth by capitalism and the states that start wars for their own benefits. ISIS, subcontractor of the states that pursue income strategies on the region, is attacking people while yelling “islamic state!” and “holy war, jihad!”. People are suffering from hunger and thirst, getting ill, getting injured; migrating and dying. They are still fighting in that struggle for existence. People are fighting not for the schemes and strategies around meeting tables, not for income, but for their freedom.
As freedom is to exist in danger of being non existant. As freedom is to live. Like the fight of Kawa, defending the life by resisting against Dehaks.
And now, USA, EU, Turkey; all the states that have expectations of income from the region, are establishing coalitions against ISIS, the “procreated violence” which in reality isn’t a disturbance to them at all. The ones who don’t like their position in the coalition start scheming, relations are getting tense and loose, and then tense again, while all the sides are changing their speech from dawn to dusk and acting inconsistent.
After all, this is the most obvious feature of any state. States can’t be expected to stand straight because states are spineless. Spineless states whose only expectation is income, would be founding ISIS yesterday, repenting it today and recognizing the islamic state tomorrow. And people will always be fighting for their future and their freedom, just like in the past.
Salutations to everyone who fight and defend the life in Rojava.
All the plots of states and capitalism will be destroyed, procreated violence will be extinguished, ISIS will lose against the freedom fighters and the people will be victorous as always. We take our belief in freedom from Kawa that stood against Dehak. And we take our belief from many comrades fighting against Dehaks.
WE ARE ALL KAWA AGAINST DEHAKS.
http://tahriricn.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/daf_in_kobane_6-e1b82.jpg?w=604 (https://tahriricn.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/daf_in_kobane_6-e1b82.jpg)DAF in Kobane



http://tahriricn.wordpress.com/2014/09/28/kurdistansyria-anarchists-join-struggle-against-isis-in-kobane/

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I'm worried that leftists not directly affiliated with the PKK/YPG will be turned on once ISIS has been dealt with, or that the PKK/YPG/anyone else will be liquidated wholesale by NATO. Assuming they live long enough for that point to come, I wonder how much combat experience that group even has. Pretty gutsy anyhow, I don't know how anxious I would be to go face to face with ISIS.

[khad]

Don't have a lot of time to post these days, but if you folks want to keep updated, a good tweep to follow is Jenan Moussa, who's a reporter with Al Aan TV. She's been watching this situation from the border and has contacts inside the town.

Jenan Moussa @jenanmoussa (https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa) · 11m 11 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/517715019396415489) YPG commander inside #Kobane (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobane?src=hash) tells me: "ISIS at gates of town. Now skirmeshes in outskirts." @akhbar (https://twitter.com/akhbar)


Jenan Moussa @jenanmoussa (https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa) · 6m 6 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/517716161660604416)
YPG commandr tells me: "No YPG retreat. We'll fight ISIS till last man. We expect ISIS 2 enter #Kobane (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobane?src=hash) any moment; they won't get out alive"


Jenan Moussa @jenanmoussa (https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa) · 2m 2 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/517717301945044993)
YPG commander in #Kobane (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobane?src=hash): "ISIS outside Kobane had upper hand due to heavy weapons. Inside town, its man to man. We wait 4 them' @akhbar (https://twitter.com/akhbar)

[khad]

Just stopping in for a few quick updates. Fighting is escalating at the gates of the city; Turkey reports artillery strikes on ISIS.

Paul Adams ‏@BBCPaulAdams (https://twitter.com/BBCPaulAdams) 19m19 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/BBCPaulAdams/status/518052102518874112) The assault on Kobane is coming simultaneously from east and southwest. By far the heaviest we've seen this week.


Piers Scholfield ‏@inglesi (https://twitter.com/inglesi) 19m19 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/inglesi/status/518051948172677120)
Explosions rock #Kobane (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobane?src=hash) every few seconds now, in different areas. Small arms fire too.


A ‏@iRevolt9 (https://twitter.com/iRevolt9) 49m49 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/iRevolt9/status/518044334307155969)
ISIS artillery targeted Radio tower of Kobane, tower on fire now . Live stream from the Turksih side of border http://canlitv.im/show/13092/dha.html?iframe=http://www.dha.com.tr/canli-yayin/ … (http://t.co/IbcKyXjt38)


Piers Scholfield ‏@inglesi (https://twitter.com/inglesi) 5h5 hours ago (https://twitter.com/inglesi/status/517975387486568448)
Source inside #Kobane (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobane?src=hash) tells us all non-combatant civilians have now left, into #Turkey (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Turkey?src=hash).


Rudaw English ‏@RudawEnglish (https://twitter.com/RudawEnglish) 2h2 hours ago (https://twitter.com/RudawEnglish/status/518025768694075392)
Turkish media report that Turkey is pounding the IS positions around the town of #Kobane (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobane?src=hash) by artillery shells.

[Sasha]

workers solidarity is retweeting curated english info about the battle: https://twitter.com/wsmireland

[khad]

✪ Yekbûn Azadî'ye ✪ ‏@Komalen_KURD (https://twitter.com/Komalen_KURD) @ELLEfrance (https://twitter.com/ELLEfrance) @ELLEmagazine (https://twitter.com/ELLEmagazine) @ELLEUK (https://twitter.com/ELLEUK) This remarkable Kurdish Girl Blew herself up to Stop #ISIS (https://twitter.com/hashtag/ISIS?src=hash) monsters to enter Kobané



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzNdjTbIQAATvG3.png:large


Slemani Times @SlemaniTimes (https://twitter.com/SlemaniTimes) · 8h 7 hours ago (https://twitter.com/SlemaniTimes/status/518883384123465729)
#ISIS (https://twitter.com/hashtag/ISIS?src=hash) takes strategic hill point overlooking the city of #Kobani (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobani?src=hash) as battles between the Islamic militants & the #YPG (https://twitter.com/hashtag/YPG?src=hash) rage. #ISIL (https://twitter.com/hashtag/ISIL?src=hash) #Syria (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Syria?src=hash)



Slemani Times @SlemaniTimes (https://twitter.com/SlemaniTimes) · 8h 7 hours ago (https://twitter.com/SlemaniTimes/status/518882556339830784)
Contrary to what was reported by pro #ISIS (https://twitter.com/hashtag/ISIS?src=hash) media & #Rudaw (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Rudaw?src=hash), ISIS have not entered the city of #Kobani (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobani?src=hash) as battles rage on with the #YPG (https://twitter.com/hashtag/YPG?src=hash).

[khad]

HUGE if confirmed. Black Tawheed flag spotted flying in town.
PtKqtEB7488

[Tim Cornelis]

Confirmed

[khad]

Confirmed

All the Nostradamuses on revleft predicting the imminent demise of the caliphate with all of your abstract sophistry about people's power and blind faith in the gods of the air strike, FUCK YOU. Fuck the hunger strikes, fuck the meaningless solidarity marches, fuck all those who think wars can be won with some PR ops with female, one-armed, and one-legged teenaged volunteers. And finally fuck all this stupid Kurdish factioneering that couldn't even fucking bring 1000 troops to fucking take some of the pressure off of Kobane from Serekani.

I'm too pissed to even say much more at this point.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/06/1412606841695_wps_70_A_black_flag_belonging_to.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2782308/Black-flag-ISIS-raised-outskirts-Syrian-border-town-amid-furious-fighting-jihadists-Kurds-Turkish-tanks-prepare-worst.html

[Sasha]

so what is your answer?

also, those "PR ops with female, one-armed, and one-legged teenaged volunteers" did just save hundreds of thousands of people by slowing IS down long enough so that most non-combatants could flee, just like they did for hundreds of thousands in kurdish iraq. so yeah, another battle lost but it could have been a lot worse.

[The Feral Underclass]

The raised flag is on the outskirts of the town (according to the map in The Guardian article). It's actually quite far from the town centre by combat standards. The town hasn't actually fallen.

"Ismat Sheikh Hassan, a commander of a Kurdish militia, the YPG, the flags were a ruse.

“I know they put an Isis flag on the hill. It is a lie. We want you to know they are not in the city right now. We would prefer to die than to leave Kobani,” he said by phone from inside the town."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/06/islamic-state-flags-reported-flying-in-kurdish-syrian-town-kobani

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I don't understand what Turkey is doing. This seems like a perfect opportunity for them to get rid of a some (a lot?) of PKK cadres by just letting them across the border without heavy weapons, but instead they seem intent on keeping these people in Turkey. Are they just waiting until all the YPG defenders are dead and then they can level the city with IS in it or something? Their strategy so far is pretty confusing.

[Raquin]

also, those "PR ops with female, one-armed, and one-legged teenaged volunteers" did just save hundreds of thousands of people by slowing IS down long enough so that most non-combatants could flee, just like they did for hundreds of thousands in kurdish iraq. so yeah, another battle lost but it could have been a lot worse.

Oh fuck off, what the hell are you talking about? Those PR ops didn't do shit. YPG child soldiers didn't do shit, YPG crippled pensioners didn't do shit, and the female feminist YPG fighters didn't do shit. Unless you count getting killed off quite easily by IS "Syrian revolutionaries" as doing something. You know who slowed down the IS advance on Kobane and saved hundreds of thousands of people, though? The Syrian Air Force, even though the YPG in Aleppo Governorate, of which Kobane is a part, publicly and unashemdly allied itself with Al-Qaeda and other Wahhabi terrorist groups like the Army of Jihadis, the Islamic Front, and JMWA, a group of Wahhabi terrorists from Chechnya, Dagestan, and Central Asia (http://www.revleft.com/vb/syrian-kurds-ypg-t188281/index.html?t=188281). Yep, turns out the only one who came to help the Kurds is Bashar al-Assad. The Syrian Air Force attacked IS columns in Kobane doens of times, and the Western coaliation attacked IS near Kobane a grand total of...1 time.


Rudaw English ‏@RudawEnglish (https://twitter.com/RudawEnglish)57m57 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/RudawEnglish/status/519186214671646720)State Department Spokesperson Jen Psaki confirms that there has been only one airstrike against the # (https://twitter.com/hashtag/IS?src=hash)IS (https://twitter.com/hashtag/IS?src=hash) near# (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobane?src=hash)Kobane (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobane?src=hash).Yeah, all good those demonstrations did.


so what is your answer?
Why are people so arrogant to think that they have answers around these parts?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

It seems odd to dismiss the capacity of airstrikes to accomplish anything on one hand and then to turn around and give the Syrian air force full credit for holding the line at the expense of the people fighting IS on the ground.

[Raquin]

It seems odd to dismiss the capacity of airstrikes to accomplish anything on one hand and then to turn around and give the Syrian air force full credit for holding the line at the expense of the people fighting IS on the ground.
It seems odd for a literate person to have such painfully inadequate reading comprehension skills.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

As these threads have been primarily you and khad agreeing with one another I've taken the liberty of assuming you and he share a particular viewpoint. His last post here was obviously shrouded with emotion, but it seemed clear that he felt NATO airstrikes would not accomplish anything against IS. Do you not hold that view?

[Raquin]

As these threads have been primarily you and khad agreeing with one another I've taken the liberty of assuming you and he share a particular viewpoint. His last post here was obviously shrouded with emotion, but it seemed clear that he felt NATO airstrikes would not accomplish anything against IS. Do you not hold that view?
I just re-read the last 2 pages and I can't see anyone saying that NATO airstrikes would not accomplish anything against ISIS. I can only spot the view that bombing long-abandoned Dawla buildings in Raqqah isn't going to do shit. I agree with that. Bombing IS battle groups advancing on Kobane, which is what the Syrian Arab Air Force is doing, has contributed a great deal to slowing the IS offensive. Slowing an offensive, however, isn't nearly enough.

[Martin Luther]

I just re-read the last 2 pages and I can't see anyone saying that NATO airstrikes would not accomplish anything against ISIS. I can only spot the view that bombing long-abandoned Dawla buildings in Raqqah isn't going to do shit. I agree with that. Bombing IS battle groups advancing on Kobane, which is what the Syrian Arab Air Force is doing, has contributed a great deal to slowing the IS offensive. Slowing an offensive, however, isn't nearly enough.

So what's this renewed talk about imposing a no fly zone in Syrian airspace? That would literally be ISIS' air support.

[Red Commissar]

I don't understand what Turkey is doing. This seems like a perfect opportunity for them to get rid of a some (a lot?) of PKK cadres by just letting them across the border without heavy weapons, but instead they seem intent on keeping these people in Turkey. Are they just waiting until all the YPG defenders are dead and then they can level the city with IS in it or something? Their strategy so far is pretty confusing.

Well, the prevailing angle from PKK media seems to be that the Turkish military is going to let YPG suffer as much losses as possible before moving in. They believe the Turkish military aims to create a buffer zone of sorts in the border areas from which the Turkish government can create safe havens for rebel groups it is close to. They point to the Turkish vote last week in particular which renewed and enlarged the mandates granted to the Turkish military to conduct cross-border operations in Syria (since 2013), as well as continuing the older one from Iraq (since mid-late 90s).

We won't really know for sure though until this goes to its conclusion and Turkey does what ever it is planning, if anything.

There's some politicing going on too because the Turkish state is, regardless of it has a secular or religious tarp on, hostile to PKK and won't be caught dead doing an abrupt 180 on its long-held position.

There is a big difference here in the US strategy too. With the Kurds in Iraq the US stepped in and closely coordinated with them to push back an IS advance in August when it got uncomfortable close to the capital in Erbil, and has since then helped them retake some places, albeit slowly.

The same has not been given to Kobane, strikes there have been minimal as the US does not have connections to PYD/PKK like they do with the groups in Iraq. US probably has indicated to PYD through other channels that it must commit wholly to the Syrian opposition as opposed to its current position oscillating back and forth between government and opposition, ex they hold the same position as gov't on nature of opposition forces, but've had joint ops with groups against IS, like Euphrates Volcano. Turkey may've floated the same condition when the PYD chief went to Ankara the other day. I presume by this point it's become a game of chicken, the PYD is hoping that the scale of this would force their hands and have them abandon that position towards them while the US hopes the PYD will buckle and agree to its conditions. That's my guess anyways.

What ever the case is going on it's a lot of politicking. This is the ugly side of a war where you have multiple agendas and interests from differing parties. A lot of people get screwed over in the process as political leaders hedge bets on developments.

Social media has some people posting Kurdish demonstrations and rioting in different parts of Turkey and in expat communities in Europe and elsewhere. The more organized ones seem to be focusing on blocking roads, railroads, subway entrances, etc.

Batman, Turkey
xPifDtQVk7Y
https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1960084_705045932924546_8350491326515709602_n.jpg? oh=cb7eef45b4e8fbdec717e4120309a9c5&oe=54B7A36E

Istanbul, Turkey
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzTDbVnIcAA6Khr.jpg
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzSotkJIUAA27I8.jpg
http://www.dha.com.tr/newpics/news/061020142332382809715_2.jpg

Ankara, Turkey
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzTMtCkIgAAzrLY.jpg

Semsur, Turkey
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzSzJuBCIAEC7Hy.jpg

Wan, Turkey (or Silopi... even in Kurdish the different people seem to be calling it at different places)
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzTXt-RCQAAwTtm.jpg

Netherlands (in the parliament, apparently)
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzTXJqACUAAOUWu.jpg
http://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2014/10/6/2014106225911760734_20.jpg

Vienna, Austria
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzTXRcfCUAAa_kA.jpg

Trafalgar Square in London, UK
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzTXlJaIYAAq_Fs.jpg
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzTW1hKIgAAq4Up.jpg

Frankfurt, Germany
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10469369_704987942930345_9081885148756193090_n.jpg ?oh=be9e994101d0b6788e91b5d385b6341e&oe=54CE020D&__gda__=1422626663_e97b599853683bd20833b13e1569c8a d

Switzerland
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/1920544_704990426263430_6846415033264293211_n.jpg? oh=aca95e9477175a0475f780c346def237&oe=54CCFD92&__gda__=1420861371_919087fb43ee5fbd6b7f04a0214196c a

NYC
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzTNbWnIQAErxfU.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzDuCLvCIAAPVsL.jpg

Some of these are from today, others from earlier. Same aims though- you'll see a lot on social media.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Yeah after making such a ruckus getting people on board for airstrikes, it seems real odd that they've been so scarce. I wasn't in favor of the airstrikes in the first place, but it doesn't exactly look like NATO is trying very hard either, it's almost all been symbolic it seems. I think the US wants troops back in Iraq, and I think they have to sell the public on a failed air campaign first in order to do that. I figured the lack of Turkish action had to do with not wanting to support ideological enemies, but their posturing is just confusing to watch. I wonder what's going on between the military and the civilian government on this one.

[Magón]

Yeah after making such a ruckus getting people on board for airstrikes, it seems real odd that they've been so scarce. I wasn't in favor of the airstrikes in the first place, but it doesn't exactly look like NATO is trying very hard either, it's almost all been symbolic it seems. I think the US wants troops back in Iraq, and I think they have to sell the public on a failed air campaign first in order to do that. I figured the lack of Turkish action had to do with not wanting to support ideological enemies, but their posturing is just confusing to watch. I wonder what's going on between the military and the civilian government on this one.

I was reading an article on MSNBC, or something like that, which talked about how there's not as many bombings as there were at the beginning of the airstrikes, because they basically don't know where to bomb exactly. So take that as you will.

As for Turkey, they're probably just waiting around for an opportune time to jump in, and blow shit to hell. It sure doesn't seem like what they're doing, amassing tanks and whatnot, to be causing any sort of psychological effect, on ISIS fighters. I think they're probably just waiting for a time to strike.

[Martin Luther]

The American strategy is to have current efforts fail but use the situation to create a Syrian opposition they can control, and keep Turkey happy by selling out the Kurds. Right now American 'advisers' in Iraq are being supported by attack helicopters. In the inevitable event one of those is shot down by ISIS, they will respond with rescue missions, additional deployments, and those will spiral into the number of troops that used to be there as the US 'discovers' x amount of troops isn't enough to defeat ISIS. But everyone else will still be doing almost all of the fighting.

Obama is getting America back into Iraq basically, in a much cleverer way than Bush Jr. did.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

That's my feeling as well, I read about the attack helicopters this morning and just rolled my eyes. As for their claims about not having targets to bomb, tbe Kurds in Kobane are claiming that IS is moving tanks and shit through open ground or were before they entered the town , those would certainly be some juicy targets if NATO were actually interested in bombing something.

[Red Terror Dr.]

I wonder how this is all going to end? Will ISIS become the dominant force in the Middle East or the world? I'm reminded by what Prof. Harold Bloom once said about the duty of everyone to read the Koran:

“Whether for its aesthetic and spiritual power or the influence it will have on all our futures, ignorance of the Koran is foolish and increasingly dangerous." The Western Canon [my emphasis]

[Tim Cornelis]

I wonder how this is all going to end? Will ISIS become the dominant force in the Middle East or the world?

Will ISIS outstrip Russia, China, EU, Iran, and the USA economically and militarily? Under no conditions will this happen. I'm not sure on what basis you would even suggest this -- the mere suggestion is honestly laughable. It doesn't have the resources; its list of opponents is virtually limitless, no one would or will tolerate its existence, and their economic policies are likely to restrain capital accumulation so economically they will probably nor fare well. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is probably the best example of how it would develop, if it were to be allowed to exist (which it isn't) -- economically stagnant, and far from a regional power, let alone a world power, let alone the world power.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

The Qur'an has some beautiful writing in it and everything, but its not going to give you some grand insight into IS.

[Red Terror Dr.]

Will ISIS outstrip Russia, China, EU, Iran, and the USA economically and militarily? Under no conditions will this happen. I'm not sure on what basis you would even suggest this -- the mere suggestion is honestly laughable. It doesn't have the resources; its list of opponents is virtually limitless, no one would or will tolerate its existence, and their economic policies are likely to restrain capital accumulation so economically they will probably nor fare well. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is probably the best example of how it would develop, if it were to be allowed to exist (which it isn't) -- economically stagnant, and far from a regional power, let alone a world power, let alone the world power.

ISIS-- Whom you scoff and jeer at has, presently, at least a dozen countries scrambling to loosen its grip on Iraq and Syria. These sandal-clad fighters running around with light weapons and rpgs are putting terror into the USA, Britain and the whole Middle East. We'll see how it all develops.

[Tim Cornelis]

ISIS-- Whom you scoff and jeer at has, presently, at least a dozen countries scrambling to loosen its grip on Iraq and Syria. These sandal-clad fighters running around with light weapons and rpgs are putting terror into the USA, Britain and the whole Middle East. We'll see how it all develops.

Fear for individual bombings, meant to deter governments from intervening, and not as means for capturing and holding land. They are not afraid of geopolitical competition from ISIS. And indeed, as you said, dozens of well armed, well trained (militarily), economically advanced states (EU, Iran, GCC, USA -- as well as China and Russia) have inscribed ISIS, mostly armed with small arms, as enemy to be eliminated.

ISIS may be challenge to notoriously tactically underskilled armed forces in Syria and Iraq, but Israel alone could wipe it out in... less than six days.* And if ISIS were to become a threat to Israel (again, not as geopolitical competition) it will.

So there's no chance of ISIS ever becoming a regional, let alone world power.

*As 'state', not as terrorist group.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Is that bolshevik sickle?

[Red Terror Dr.]

I'm not trying to disagree or argue with you but let's say 10% of the 1 billion Muslims in the world join ISIS or even 5% --- that's a lot of manpower. :(

[Hrafn]

You're being more than a little bit islamophobic, yo. Stop.

Someone get rid of the troll.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Yeah after making such a ruckus getting people on board for airstrikes, it seems real odd that they've been so scarce. I wasn't in favor of the airstrikes in the first place, but it doesn't exactly look like NATO is trying very hard either, it's almost all been symbolic it seems. I think the US wants troops back in Iraq, and I think they have to sell the public on a failed air campaign first in order to do that. I figured the lack of Turkish action had to do with not wanting to support ideological enemies, but their posturing is just confusing to watch. I wonder what's going on between the military and the civilian government on this one.

I think the exception on NATO airstrikes proves your rule - you're right, airstrikes have been fairly minimal, except in one case. The US did bomb the shit out of ISIS around the dam of Mosul, and this is reflected in the statistics (they dropped something like 100 airstrikes, far more than in any region). Why? The dam of Mosul is a massive, expensive piece of infrastructure which provides power and water, but more importantly would flood half of Iraq if it broke. They don't care so much about stopping ISIS immediately, but they don't want parts of Iraq's infrastructure to be destroyed


I wonder how this is all going to end? Will ISIS become the dominant force in the Middle East or the world?


ISIS is not going to become a dominant world power. It will reorient power in the Middle East but you should not be drawn in by their delusions of grandeur.


I'm reminded by what Prof. Harold Bloom once said about the duty of everyone to read the Koran:
“Whether for its aesthetic and spiritual power or the influence it will have on all our futures, ignorance of the Koran is foolish and increasingly dangerous." The Western Canon [my emphasis]

Reading the Koran will tell you very little about what makes up ISIS.


ISIS-- Whom you scoff and jeer at has, presently, at least a dozen countries scrambling to loosen its grip on Iraq and Syria. These sandal-clad fighters running around with light weapons and rpgs are putting terror into the USA, Britain and the whole Middle East. We'll see how it all develops.

They have not put terror into the USA or UK (although various pundits are making histrionic claims). ISIS has no ability to take on any of the major world powers today.

ISIS controls little or no military industry, meaning they must smuggle weapons from the black market or capture them from their enemies. You can fight a guerrilla war against armored divisions with smuggled small arms the way the Mujihadeen and Viet Cong did, but controlling hundreds of square miles, cities, farmland, oil fields and other infrastructure of state is very difficult against tanks and helicopters.

In terms of population and land, ISIS gains have been significant but remain fairly limited. If we look at ISIS as an actual "state" they control an area with a few million people spread thinly over a desert. They would need to raise an army of hundreds of thousands to actually challenge countries like Turkey, Iran, Israel or Egypt, yet there's no reason to think that they can raise such an army.

Outside of weapons, ISIS faces other huge logistical challenges as, again, they have a fairly moderate stretch of territory with a moderate population. How could they feed a massive army? It also raises serious questions about how they could maintain a tolerable standard of living for the Sunni Arabs they depend on for loyalty and support.

Lastly, ISIS is surrounded by some of the most powerful armed forces in the world. Iran to the East, Turkey to the North, Saudi Arabia to the South, Israel to the West and plenty of British and American forces close at hand. ISIS will be incredibly difficult for these powers to defeat, but at the same time it's hard to seriously conceive of ISIS actually managing to confront several million professional soldiers with modern equipment from any of those six major military powers and their allies.


ISIS is a huge threat, its been incredibly successful and it will be around for a while, challenging major powers and killing tons of innocent people. They are hardly poised to become the next world superpower in the immediate future.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

You're being more than a little bit islamophobic, yo. Stop.

Someone get rid of the troll.

Worse, he sounds enamored with their violence.


I'm not trying to disagree or argue with you but let's say 10% of the 1 billion Muslims in the world join ISIS or even 5% --- that's a lot of manpower. :(

The idea that 5% of the Muslim world would want to, be able to, and decide to immigrate to some desert near the Euphrates is beyond far fetched. And even if they did, that would just translate to 50 million Muslims without homes, food or guns just hanging out in the desert waiting for ISIS to figure out how to get shelter and food for so many. And if they "join ISIS" without actually going to Syria, it's hard to see how they could do anything whatsoever to contribute to the "state-building" project that ISIS seems to be undertaking.

The problem for ISIS is that they took the low-hanging fruit in Syria and Iraq of a bunch of Sunnis enraged at their gross, corrupt, violent states. Alawite Syria, Shiite Iraq and secular Sunni Turkey and Kurdistan have no love for ISIS's Takfiri ideology, and the Arab gulf monarchies are not hated by their Sunni citizens for mistreating them the way they were in Iraq or Syria.

[Red Commissar]

Yeah after making such a ruckus getting people on board for airstrikes, it seems real odd that they've been so scarce. I wasn't in favor of the airstrikes in the first place, but it doesn't exactly look like NATO is trying very hard either, it's almost all been symbolic it seems. I think the US wants troops back in Iraq, and I think they have to sell the public on a failed air campaign first in order to do that. I figured the lack of Turkish action had to do with not wanting to support ideological enemies, but their posturing is just confusing to watch. I wonder what's going on between the military and the civilian government on this one.


I was reading an article on MSNBC, or something like that, which talked about how there's not as many bombings as there were at the beginning of the airstrikes, because they basically don't know where to bomb exactly. So take that as you will

Well, with regards to the US airstrikes they generally work in this manner

1. Target is spotted, either by a trained individual within the Iraq Army or peshmerga, or one of the American advisors

2. Coordinates relayed back to a command center in Erbil or Baghdad depending on the circumstances

3. Coordinates taken by the crew in the aircraft carrier or in the UAE, flight plan set up and aircraft dispatched

4. Plane reaches its target after x minutes and bombs

5. Plan accomidates for return path

There's a lot of lag involved in that but generally these airstrikes are effective only when there is a corresponding ground op by who ever the US is aiding in this case. This intelligence infrastructure doesn't exist in Syria, and beyond what they see with their drones and satellites they are flying blind.

That being said, Kobane is an exception to this because it's not a city that's in the middle of Syria, but right up on the border where coordinates can be called in by someone on the otherside of the border pretty easily. It seems for the most part that as I said earlier the US is either trying to apply pressure on PYD to agree to something (for example, depening ties with the opposition) as a condition for aid, and/or Turkey has put obstacles in the way. The latter we know is going on because Turkey has been adamant that the ultimate outcome of a campaign in Syria should be Assad's removal, rather than the US's stated objective of combating IS.

There are a lot of airstrikes going on in Iraq proper though, it's just in Syria all we've seen so far is attacks on structures that intelligence identified as being of value in someway, such as the refineries, and some token hits near Kobane.


I think the exception on NATO airstrikes proves your rule - you're right, airstrikes have been fairly minimal, except in one case. The US did bomb the shit out of ISIS around the dam of Mosul, and this is reflected in the statistics (they dropped something like 100 airstrikes, far more than in any region). Why? The dam of Mosul is a massive, expensive piece of infrastructure which provides power and water, but more importantly would flood half of Iraq if it broke. They don't care so much about stopping ISIS immediately, but they don't want parts of Iraq's infrastructure to be destroyed

What's got to be remembered about what the media has said about the large number of strikes they identifiy as "Mosul Dam" is that it's not the dam directly but also includes the general region. There were several airstrikes carried out not on the dam structure but on IS defensive positions east of the dam as well as villages to the eastlike Tel Skuf. For the most part if you draw a line from Tel Skuf running west to the eastern gate of the dam and curve north you have what the battleline was during that assault. More airstrikes were thrown at the western gate to put pressure on their positions there as well.

Before the battle there were already a lot of strikes in that area when peshmerga began to push from their lines, and afterwards more were done south of Tel Skuf and areas west and northwest of the dam, in particular at the Zumar subdistrict where fighting is ongoing. That is all included in the "mosul dam" stats.

AFAIK I don't know if any airstrikes hit the dam itself- it seems most of it was focused on the eastern gate before the dam itself. Even then the structure of the dam is more like an earthen hill than concrete, you'd need something very heavy to put a hole in it.

More airstrikes were provided in other areas, such as south and southwest of Kirkuk, as well as Amerli which either helped with defenses and taking back villages as with the former, or relieving a siege in the case of the latter. Further south they helped to stabilize the situation around the Haditha dam. More recently it helped with Peshmerga taking back the Rabia border crossing with Syria. So at least in Iraq they are dropping some serious ordinance and having an effect.

The problem with these airstrikes is their frequency and what they can ultimately do even with a ground op. The frequency bit shows its vulnerability more recently with the IS moving to attack Iraqi positions near Fallujah in a bid to halt artillery shelling of that city, where the IS was able to overrun a number of army positions and took the town of Keef. And airstrikes themselves are only of worth against say vehicles and defensive emplacements- for other things like IEDs, occupying a city, maintaining supply routes, etc. airstrikes are of less use. Frequency might be affected if the US can get an airbase in Iraq, their prefered choice in Balad is too unstable and that leaves either making one themselves somewhere or if Turkey'd open up one of their bases.

Another problem is that by now engaging with IS the US has helped to increase its appeal to people who want to fight the US, be it because it is the "crusader state" or because of its imperialist position there, which has helped with their own recruitment. I'm worried in particular that with the drumbeat of war and calls for more direct intervention are actualized, we'll see a case where the IS can now move itself in position of being in direct warfare with US soldiers, a powerful appeal to those who want to pursue that, and allows the IS to transform the war from one of a civil war and aggression to one of resistance and liberation. Nevermind the quagmire such a conflict'd be and the deaths of people that will follow.

As for to Kobane and Syria; US wants a ground force it can work through like in Iraq and that is not present there. They want to train "moderate" rebels and that won't happen overnight, if ever, and that only leaves them with either hoping in the offchance the PYD/YPG decides to throw in with them, or with the existing Syrian rebel groups who've already expressed their anger- they'd rather be fighting the government and have no interest in fighting IS. On top of that the US's regional allies who've acted in its stead in Syria- Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey- all have their own pet groups and agendas for Syria that only agree on removing Assad, and that makes it difficult to actually do anything the US is wanting to do, all of whom have either expressed privately or publically that the US should be attacking the Syrian government rather than IS.

Despite his blustering I don't think the Syrian government has enough projection to do anything meaningful in Kobane, and it would also embolden some of his more nationalist opponents from within the Ba'ath- those who've felt a hit in their pride with Iran's increasing influence in Syria as this war drags on and their own nationalist sentiments. Coming to the aid of Kurds who they had at best seen as a nuisance that needed to be assimilated or swept under the rug won't help that. On top of that they've already butt heads in some places- while there was clearly a quid pro quo when Assad withdrew a lot of the army from Kurdish regions except for a few bases, and cooperation in fighting IS and viewing the opposition as foreign stooges, I can't say that they've been enthused with the renaming of areas to Kurdish, schools teaching in Kurdish and use of Kurdish in government as opposed to Arabic, and the competition between PYD/YPG and the Syrian government in propping up Assyrian militias (both named "Sutoro"), and arguably trying to create a government that is operating too independently for Damascus's tastes.

Turkey has requested repeatedly a no-fly zone be enforced over Syria (and since the IS has no planes you know who this is targeting) and taken in conjunction with the theories that it is looking to establish a buffer zone, it has its own objectives that can start at Kobane. This is given though if A. these interpretations of Turkey's actions turn out to be true and B. Turkey does not mind risking a war with Syria who've already warned, along with Iran, that such an intervention would provoke that response.

Overall point here though is that we're not privy to a lot of the backroom wheeling and dealing among different factions, and this includes the IS's efforts in hedging bets with local tribal chiefs and other notables. In the process a lot of innocent people die to further the objectives of those in power, and we are reminded again of what war's true effects are on common people. Most of the people in Kobane seem to've left, but they're left with the prospect of being refugees unable to return to their homes in the forseeable future and shacking up with the already miserable condition of refugees in Turkey. Many of these people are farmers and the like, and their livliehoods have either been torched by the IS or were prevented from bringing their livestock across the border by the Turkish military.

[Sasha]

looking at the statements of Turkish officials i'm actually starting to wonder whether the turks are not only waiting to weaken the kurds but even might push for getting an OK to resolve the whole syria problem as a whole an go in fullscale to not only destroy IS in syria but also take down the Assad regime and put a FSA government with a long "support" occupation ala the US in afghanistan/iraq for the turkish army.
any turkish users who can say whether that could actually be on the table?

[Martin Luther]

That sounds absolutely whack but you can't put anything past Erdogan.

[Sasha]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/oct/07/us-turkey-diplomacy-isis-kurds-kobani

[Dodo]

looking at the statements of Turkish officials i'm actually starting to wonder whether the turks are not only waiting to weaken the kurds but even might push for getting an OK to resolve the whole syria problem as a whole an go in fullscale to not only destroy IS in syria but also take down the Assad regime and put a FSA government with a long "support" occupation ala the US in afghanistan/iraq for the turkish army.
any turkish users who can say whether that could actually be on the table?

That seems to be the plan actually.
The foremost priority, the way I see it had been destruction of the Kurdish movement. It is important to realize that this is not a simple "national" issue of Kurds. The thing with Kurds is that due to all the oppression, they have created a socio-political movement heavily influenced by post-marxist thought, pro-environment, gender-equality, anti-capitalist...etc.
So until now Turkey had been waiting for Kurds to be curbed out of the area before moving in so as to establish a pro-Turkish Kurd rule.

That plan seems to have backfired since we have a whole-scale country-wide uprising going on atm. So from tomorrow an on, I believe the government will have to act and support the Kurds there or declare the ending of the "resolution" process and the war in Turkey will resume.

Anyways, the other day our new PM did tell that if we are to go in, we also have to take down essad's syria. So its obvious that Turkey and USA are trying to cut a deal while sacrificing Kurds. Turkey has became quiet the imperialist player indeed :) its pretty weird actually.
If Syrian opposition wins, Kurdish threat will also be weakened due to empowerment of a puppet-like, dependent syrian regime.

so the way I see it, a good future for middle east lies in Kurdish victory in Syria AND Turkey.

[Red Commissar]

Protests in Turkey intensified by Kurds and supporters, reportedly at least 10-15 people were killed in confrontations and curfews have been imposed in these areas.

Ultranationalists in Turkey've mobilized some counter attacks against Kurds, looking online their prevailing mood is "they murder our soldiers and now they want our help?" Very messy.

[Sasha]

thsi video is doing the rounds on facebook claiming it to be an armed attack of PKK youth on a ISIS building in turkish kurdistan; http://www.frequency.com/video/kurdish-youth-organization-ydg-h-attacks/198175948?cid=5-803257 (TW warning, graphic content)

other sources say its an attack on the local HQ of Hüdar Par, an islamist turkish/kurdish political party related to the banned turkish hizbullah which is challenging the PKK's dominance in the area.

fact is that Hizbullah/Hüdar Par members where active in the attacks on the demonstrations yesterday that killed many kurds.

so yeah, seems that Erdoghans war is really starting to come home.

[Sasha]

so more info on hizzbulah/Hüdar-Par (not te be confused with the unrelated Shiite lebanese hezbollah) since the edit function is fucking up again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_Hezbollah

[khad]

Just an update. Kurdish sources admitted to the loss of the downtown security zone overnight.

Jenan Moussa @jenanmoussa (https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa) · 1h 1 hour ago (https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/520538913996161024)#break (https://twitter.com/hashtag/break?src=hash) Kobane Chief Anwar Moslem, tells me over phone from #Kobane (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobane?src=hash): "Security zone (police bldg +court) has fallen into ISIS hands." @akhbar (https://twitter.com/akhbar)


Location of the security square and prison

http://i.imgur.com/U87nYkx.jpg

[Sasha]

Tell Us Lies About Kobanê -unpicking the demand for Turkish & western intervention

Date: Thu, 2014-10-09 14:12
http://www.wsm.ie/sites/default/files/KobaneSolidarity3.jpgThe notion that the fall of Kobanê could be prevented by the intervention of the Turkish army is a smokescreen that covers the truth that they are already intervening - on the side of ISIS. The Turkish state's selective blockade of the border, which allows arms and volunteers to cross for ISIS, but strangles them for the YPG defenders of Kobanê is the decisive intervention that is giving ISIS the upper hand.
This fundamental truth has been put forward by some minority voices in the mainstream media. Chiefly those intrepid reporters on the ground trying to cover the story. Honourable mention should be made of the BBC's Paul Adams amongst others. But these marginalised voices have been drowned out by the official media line issuing from the central editorial offices downwards, that the Kurds of Kobanê and Turkish Kurdistan are protesting "against Turkey's inactivity" or "failure to intervene". This is the world turned upside down. And Orwellian newspeak where the exact opposite of the truth is reported as accepted fact. The banners the protesters are holding say "Turkey Stop Supporting ISIS".
The first casualty of war is the truth, so they say. If Kobanê falls it will not be due to a deficit of imperialist intervention, but a surfeit of it. The mainstream media's standing orders are clear, however. All international stories about impending massacre must be reframed as a call for more Western intervention. Even when - especially when - the origins of the threat are the result of previous imperialist machinations.
The official party line carried across all media that "ISIS is the main threat" covers over the reality that ISIS is the baby of America's "partners in the region", Saudia Arabia, Turkey, Qatar and the UAE. That along with the US's failed policy of propping up clientelist proxy forces, like the useless, sectarian Iraqi "Army" who ran away leaving the advanced US-rpovided military hardware for ISIS to scoop up for free. US Vice President Joe Biden, at a college talk last week asserted that millions of funding, arms and aid had been given to ISIS by Turkey, Saudi and the Gulf states. An uncharacteristic moment of honesty. The result? The Obama administration forced him to issue grovelling apologies to all the states he had quite rightly fingered. The lies go on. The lies must be maintained. The central lie - that ISIS is a challenge to the "Team America World Police" way of running international relations, rather than it's love child, must be maintained at all costs.
But there is another lie in the proposition that "ISIS is the main threat". Turkey has acted, in plain view of the world this last week (and for much longer before that) according to the doctrine that in reality Kurdish autonomy in Rojava - the cantons of Efrîn, Kobanê, and Cizîrê in Northern Syria - is a bigger threat than ISIS. This is why Turkey has been allowing weapons and fighters to cross its border for ISIS while blocking the same for the YPG.
So what could be more threatening, not just to Ankara, but also to Washington (because let's be clear, behind all the airstrikes and hand-wringing, Washington ultimately had the capability but not the political will to overturn the Turkish strategy of letting ISIS wipe out Kurdish autonomy for them) than ISIS's project of a brutal, authoritarian, apocalyptic islamism? What indeed but the ever dangerous idea of freedom. The programme of Democratic Confederalism of the PYD/YPG and their PKK allies, is a new departure from their previous conventional Stalinist positions. Like any original, radical departure, what it will ultimately amount to in reality remains to be proven, in deeds not words. But what is most suibversive about freedom is less the reality of it than the idea of it. It is for the idea of freedom, for the hope of an alternative, that people fight and sacrifice.
Shortly before he was assassinated, along with fifty others of the top leadership of the Brigade, Hassan Aboud, the leader of Ahrar al-Sham, the main force of the Islamic Front, gave an interview to a Western journalist. Amongst many other things he gave his assessment of why the Iraqi Army ran like rabbits before the ISIS advance into Iraq in June. He judged the Iraqi rout was "because the army has no military ideology,". Two strong ideologies confronted each other in Kobanê over the last week. In the end both Turkey and - protests otherwise aside - the US and the West, have decided that the ideology of the Kurds, the idea of freedom it embodies, is the most dangerous. The notion that "ISIS is the main threat" is the lie that covers the reality that idea of freedom is clearly the greater threat.


http://www.wsm.ie/c/isis-kobane-turkish-western-intervention

[Red Commissar]

YPG commanders are stating that they held the city's square which is the main route into the border. Daesh is still coming at them but it seems that they've opened up several offensives in Iraq as well, they seem to be particularly fierce in Anbar as they try to defeat Iraq Army positions in Ramadi and Fallujah- east of it in the latter towards the Baghdad suburbs and trying to get into a position to threaten Baghdad again like they did in June. This was followed up with large suicide bombs in Baghdad proper in Shi'a areas and on peshmega lines in Diyala province in Qara Tapah, and offensives in the south of Kirkuk province and around Rabia in Mosul.

The IS is probably trying to spread the US's efforts across several areas, but whether it is for the purpose of forcing the fall of Kobane more quickly or if they have another objective in mind in Iraq with the US so focused in Kobane, I can't tell.

[khad]

The Kobane cultural center has been captured by the Islamic State, according to verified photographs.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bzy1TmnIMAEySja.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bzy1Tg_IIAAQDUH.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bzy1TivIAAETP-s.jpg

Location is here
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bzxog0oIAAAGRTw.jpg

In other news, the PYD begins a general mobilization for real, and here's Rudaw putting a negative spin on it:
http://rudaw.net/english/middleeast/syria/12102014

[consuming negativity]

http://www.euronews.com/2014/10/11/from-istanbul-to-paris-protests-in-support-of-kurdish-fighters-taking-on-isil/


Protests continued in Istanbul on Saturday against the Turkish government’s refusal to intervene to help Kurds in the Syrian border town of Kobani.

At least 37 people have died in demonstrations over the last three days in cities across Turkey.

Demonstrators want the Turkish government to open a “humanitarian corridor” into Kobani.

The Turkish President has dismissed the protests, saying he refuses to have foreign policy dictated to him by “layabouts” on the streets.

[The Feral Underclass]

Turkish state now bombing PKK positions inside Turkey.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Martin Luther]

Turkey understands humanity and good faith about as well as the zionists do.

[Sasha]

diary from inside kobane published in newsweek:http://www.newsweek.com/2014/10/24/kobane-diary-four-days-inside-city-keeping-incredible-and-unprecedented-resistance-277509.html

[Illegalitarian]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/kurds-claim-to-have-turned-tide-against-islamic-state-in-kobane/2014/10/15/af9b5726-547f-11e4-809b-8cc0a295c773_story.html

Eh? Is this PKK posturing or is it true?

[Sentinel]

Eh? Is this PKK posturing or is it true?


Several sources do claim that YPG/J with allies have managed to drive out the Daesh/IS from almost all of Kobane in a counteroffensive starting last evening, as well as retaken the strategic hill outside it. While the battle is far from over, it does seem things are looking much brighter now.

According to articles and reports I have read, they are attempting to take back the main hill overlooking the city atm, and are also on the offensive in other districts. I can't get onto fb atm, where I saw these other details posted but here are some more articles claiming Kobane itself is about to be liberated:

Islamic State 'being driven out of Syria's Kobane'(BBC Article) (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29647314)

The great Kobane fightback: After symbolic recapture of hill with black flag of ISIS, Kurdish fighters take back swathes of city as US step up airstrikes (Daily Mail article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2793880/the-great-kobane-fightback-symbolic-recapture-hill-black-flag-isis-kurdish-fighters-swathes-city-step-airstrikes.html)

I hope from the bottom of my heart that not only these reports are true, but that the successes of the heroic YPG/J continue.

[khad]

The media should actually start confirming the news instead of printing propaganda claims from either side verbatim. Per Kurdish sources today, there are HEAVY clashes inside Kobane. Situation is very unclear.

Reşo Bîstûyek ‏@r3sho (https://twitter.com/r3sho) 1h1 hour ago (https://twitter.com/r3sho/status/523089871015903232) MT @drquantum21 (https://twitter.com/drquantum21): Meanwhile, #Kobane (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobane?src=hash) is very active right now. Clashes can be heard. The coalition did not strike today.


Elijah J Magnier ‏@EjmAlrai (https://twitter.com/EjmAlrai)
Sorry to disappoint u guys: #BreakingNews (https://twitter.com/hashtag/BreakingNews?src=hash): Fierce battle ongoing on d western city of #Kobane (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kobane?src=hash) #AynalArab (https://twitter.com/hashtag/AynalArab?src=hash) were #IS (https://twitter.com/hashtag/IS?src=hash) & #YPG (https://twitter.com/hashtag/YPG?src=hash) r still fighting.


Rock ‏@RockBilbao (https://twitter.com/RockBilbao) 50m50 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/RockBilbao/status/523099003865812992)
@EjmAlrai (https://twitter.com/EjmAlrai) : who controls city center??? As per map on bbc-14/10 almost 75% under IS, but its headline claims, IS retreated fully from kobane


Elijah J Magnier ‏@EjmAlrai (https://twitter.com/EjmAlrai) 47m47 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/EjmAlrai/status/523099925987733504)
On some fronts (south) IS is more in the city. Other parts, IS is pushed back a bit and attacking agains. No percentage is valid @RockBilbao (https://twitter.com/RockBilbao)

Tom ‏@TomKoohi (https://twitter.com/TomKoohi) 45m45 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/TomKoohi/status/523100447650086912) @EjmAlrai (https://twitter.com/EjmAlrai) RT said it was over! Optimistic it seems.


Fer Gunay ‏@FiratGunay (https://twitter.com/FiratGunay) 40m40 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/FiratGunay/status/523101681576595456)
@adam_dobb (https://twitter.com/adam_dobb) @EjmAlrai (https://twitter.com/EjmAlrai) @Amin16 (https://twitter.com/Amin16) couple hrs ago it was confirmed that ISIS managed to infiltrate into w Kobane. Including reinforcements

[khad]

The reports are a total clufu right now. Hearing up to 80% YPG control from some and 80% IS control from others.

Basically, percentage estimates are completely worthless as not even the Kobane defenders have an accurate assessment seeing how they don't have drone overwatch over the area.

The only thing that can be confirmed right now are hotspots due to vbied/air strike activity.

Massive explosion from air strike on a gas facility in central Kobane, Claims of 8 IS KIA
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0PvKQXIIAAg8h1.jpg:large

VBIED/bomb right next to the border crossing area in NW Kobane. The Islamic state might be trying to cut off the defenders from the border.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0QV5IrCYAA83rv.jpg:large

[The Modern Prometheus]

Jesus christ the stupidity of the Turkish state never ceases to amaze me. Yes why not bomb the fuck out of the only people keeping ISIS from marching right into Turkey. They are directly helping ISIS by doing this and why countries are not speaking out against the actions of Turkey is beyond me.

I have gotten numbers all over the place on the current state of Kobane as well. Would be nice to get some actual info on it.

[PhoenixAsh]

Turkey benefits from ISIS because it is now largely dependend on Russian oil. With prospecting cheaper oil trade from ISIS which is much preferable to the current situation where the US has rapidly lost control over the oil regions in Iraq. Naturally...Kurds don't really count Turkey amongst their biggest fans. As it stands now Assad with his connections to Iran are a bigger problem for Turkey and ISIS seems to deal with two problems at once.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The oil coming in from ISIS is of questionable quality and it can be risky to rely on militant groups for the supply of any commodity whose distribution must be sustained and wide scale. If you rely on ISIS and their crude (in both senses of the term) refineries are bombed or their group splits or Assad/the PKK/the Peshmerga/the Iraqi army make an unexpected advance, you've just lost your supply and you need to buy from someone else. A spike in oil prices and contraction of supply, unlike most other commodities except maybe food, water or electricity, can put a whole economy on standstill. Of course, Turkey would quickly find other suppliers, but it's not that it wouldn't cost them.

Of course, that said, Turkey is clearly benefiting from the dirt cheap oil being smuggled in from ISIS controlled areas of Syria, so it's not implausible that they are considering that when they are making their foreign policy decisions

[Devrim]

Jesus christ the stupidity of the Turkish state never ceases to amaze me. Yes why not bomb the fuck out of the only people keeping ISIS from marching right into Turkey.

ISIS is not about to march into Turkey. If they tried it,the Turkish army, the second biggest in NATO ,would destroy them.

Turkey's prime foreign policy goal is to overthrow Assad. It believes it can use ISIS to help in this. If they happen to damage the PKK while it is all going on, it's a double bonus for the Turkish state.

Devrim

[Sasha]

But if there are indeed tight conections between Hudar-Par and ISIS they dont need to march into turkey, then they are already there (inc several thousand millitant with acces to weaponry) and is the turkish secret police yet again playning very dangerous games that could wreck stability in the whole of the kurdish area's.

[khad]

New video uploaded today shows IS troops calmly milling about near the cultural center.

Note how they haven't removed the YPG flag. They're clearly adapting.

9BtV2wvQgIg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bzxog0oIAAAGRTw.jpg

[Sasha]

The leader of the chp (secularist party) said that he has sworn statements of a police chief and several truck drivers that say the Turkish government is transporting weapons to IS.

[PhoenixAsh]

It wouldn't surprise me at all.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

One of my housemates is Kurdish and he has basically said that most of the news from home is along the same lines; that Turkey is covertly supporting IS. Some of it might be just rumours but it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

[Sasha]

the US dropped weapons, ammunitions and other supplies tonight for the kobane kurds, this must not make the turks happy.

[Devrim]

But if there are indeed tight conections between Hudar-Par and ISIS they dont need to march into turkey, then they are already there (inc several thousand millitant with acces to weaponry) and is the turkish secret police yet again playning very dangerous games that could wreck stability in the whole of the kurdish area's.

I think you live in a bit of a fantasy world. ISIS are not streaming towards Ankara, or even Diyarbakır in an armored column. Hür Dava Partisi is a legal political party which does not have armed militants. Yes, they probably do have connections with a few people with guns from the old days of Kurdish Hezbollah, but not thousands.

They are a product of the Turkish state, just as ISIS is partially a product of the Turkish state. Are they playing dangerous games? Not games that I think are dangerous to the Turkish state. Could they wreck the stability of the whole Kurdish region? I think they would love to if they could manage it.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Of course, that said, Turkey is clearly benefiting from the dirt cheap oil being smuggled in from ISIS controlled areas of Syria, so it's not implausible that they are considering that when they are making their foreign policy decisions

I don't know if the state is directly benefiting. Certainly some people are making a lot of money, and I'm sure a lot of bribes are being passed out. Its certainly not coming in the form of consumer discounts. Turkey still has the most expensive petrol in the world.

I don't think this is the prime concern though. Turkey's prime reason for its backing of the Da'esh is to overthrow al-Assad. If they can bloody the nose of the PKK at the same time that is an added bonus for them.

Devrim

[Devrim]

I hope from the bottom of my heart that not only these reports are true, but that the successes of the heroic YPG/J continue.

They are now an auxiliary force for US imperialism.

Devrim

[khad]

Finally, the first real game changer. This is HUGE. http://rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/20102014


ERBIL, Kurdistan Region—The Turkish government has agreed to give Kurdistan Region Peshmerga forces passage to the besieged Kurdish town of Kobane, a well-placed source told Rudaw today.

The official source said that Turkey has responded positively to a request from Kurdish President Massoud Barzani to allow Peshmerga forces pass through Turkish territory to relieve Peoples Protection Units (YPG) fighters in their battle against the Islamic State (IS).

According to the source who didn't want to be named, Barzani and Peshmerga Minister Mustafa Sayid Qader have coordinated the plan with Salih Muslim, leader of the Democratic Union Party (PYD) and his YPG commanders.

With additional Peshmerga forces, the tide of this battle will probably shift decisively in the defenders' favor.

[Sasha]

I think you live in a bit of a fantasy world. ISIS are not streaming towards Ankara, or even Diyarbakır in an armored column. Hür Dava Partisi is a legal political party which does not have armed militants. Yes, they probably do have connections with a few people with guns from the old days of Kurdish Hezbollah, but not thousands.

They are a product of the Turkish state, just as ISIS is partially a product of the Turkish state. Are they playing dangerous games? Not games that I think are dangerous to the Turkish state. Could they wreck the stability of the whole Kurdish region? I think they would love to if they could manage it.

Devrim

I wasn't saying armoured collumns where streaming anywhere, I know hudar-par is a legal party (for now, if they get a thread to the AKP I assume they will get banned easily as they certainly not hide that they are a hizbullah front.) I was just under the impression that hizbullah never got properly disarmed because of ther ties to the deepstate and still had acces to a few thousand militant with small arms and explosives.
A strategy of tension conflict between PKK and Hizbullah would probably fit different factions in the Turkish state just fine, the AKP would see some competion and a entrenched peace process killed and the secularists might see an possibility to get rid of the AKP government eventually (either through democratic or through military means) to restore stability etc etc.

[Devrim]

Finally, the first real game changer. This is HUGE. http://rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/20102014

With additional Peshmerga forces, the tide of this battle will probably shift decisively in the defenders' favor.

Of course, one wouldn't have to be very cynical to see this as a ploy by the Turkish state to weaken the PKK.

Devrim

[Devrim]

I was just under the impression that hizbullah never got properly disarmed because of ther ties to the deepstate and still had acces to a few thousand militant with small arms and explosives.


I would be extremely surprised if they had 1,000 left alone a 'few thousand'. The main point though is that it is a tool of the Turkish state, as to a certain extent is the Da'esh.

Devrim

[khad]

And just when I report this, this comes in.

Thomas van Linge ‏@arabthomness (https://twitter.com/arabthomness) #Kurdistan (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kurdistan?src=hash) BREAKING: #IS (https://twitter.com/hashtag/IS?src=hash) fighters have fully besieged mount Sinjar after capturing several villages north of the mount, #YBŞ (https://twitter.com/hashtag/YB%C5%9E?src=hash) needs help!

[The Modern Prometheus]

ISIS is not about to march into Turkey. If they tried it,the Turkish army, the second biggest in NATO ,would destroy them.

Turkey's prime foreign policy goal is to overthrow Assad. It believes it can use ISIS to help in this. If they happen to damage the PKK while it is all going on, it's a double bonus for the Turkish state.

Devrim

Well ISIS would stand no chance in a fight against the Turkish state but if they did seize Kobane the Turks may have to directly confront ISIS thus making a bigger mess then there already is. Also even though ISIS is certainly not equipped to take on Turkey they could certainly spark off a nasty war along the border especially since there are already many ISIS supporters in Turkey though the Hizbullah seems to be a minor threat their support could grow with the success of ISIS. The violence between the PKK and the state supported Hizbullah has certainly escalated and although the Turks certainly like to see Kurds killing each other i can only see this further enraging alot of the Kurds sympathetic to the PKK. Thus when/if ISIS is crushed or burned out it could mean much more violence between the PKK and Turkish state in the future.

Their goals may be to overthrow Assad and damage the PKK as much as possible but the war in Syria would no doubt turn into a fucking blood bath of even bigger proportions and further destabilize the entire region. Then again who the fuck am i kidding by thinking that Turkey of all states gives 2 shits about collateral damage even to their own people.

[consuming negativity]

Maybe Turkey is just trying to avoid the shitty PR that comes with backing ISIS of all people; especially when the US (see: NATO ally) has made it clear which side they're on.

[khad]

Massive explosion in the northwest section of town. Description of the video suggests it is the YPG's ammo storage. UNCONFIRMED.

http://www.iha.com.tr/video-isid-ypgye-ait-muhimmat-deposunu-vurdu-43229/

vOtPtRohKY4

EDIT: Judging from the explosion time lag, this is less than 1 km from the border.

[Half Commie]

Well, strict targeting of military targets is fine for me. The problem is that that is extremely impractical and requires great technology if not strictly rotorcraft is used, which are vulnerable. What I would do if I was head of state of a superpower would be to do something I call "Pogo Penetration" or "Bunny-hop Penetration", the stealthy invasion of enemy territory while airlifting regiments every week to keep the enemy confused and in panick, with close air support. The problem is that close-air support requires contact with infantry, and that means either trusting militias or invading Syria and Iraq...
I really don't have too much of an opinion. As long as they don't have a proper airforce nor a proper industry, there's not too much to be worried about....
Something I advocate is the dropping of timed bombs with a 25-minute fues together with fliers warning humans to clear the area. That would be nice to nullify industrial regions without too much human loss.

[PhoenixAsh]

Not sure if it is the same explosion...but this features on news sites today:

http://media.nu.nl/m/m1oxf1ra51ar_std1024.jpg


Which highly contradicts Kobani being freed and safe most media outlets still seem to maintain.

[PhoenixAsh]

And has anybody mentioned Serena Shim? On the 18th she was accused by Turkey of spying after she reported on Turkish support of IS and threatened her over this...well...yesterday she was killed in a car crash with PT saying a truck and the vehicle nor the driver have been located while Tuskish media dispute this and say there was a cement truck and the driver has been actually arrested.

Convenient regardless.

[PhoenixAsh]

At the same time there are reports of ISIS operating well within Turkish borders and targetting Kobani officials of some sort.

[Erfurt 1891]

I fail to see why do leftist repeat state propaganda of ISIS (ISIL, IS) being the greatest threat to worlds stability, future, peace... I fail to see why do leftists invent stupid slogans like "fight the fascist islamist gangs" etc.

ISIS will be dealt with in near future by allies of US imperialism. Then we will hear for another great threat from some exotic, but poor, country that can destroy "our way of life".

All this cheerleading for US imperialism and imaginary revolutions going on in besiged towns is ridiculous and sad.

[PhoenixAsh]

So you support ISIS? What are you arguing exactly? And more importantly who?

You do realize that most of the propaganda against ISIS is actually being claimed by ISIS, right? That they themselves are saying these things which you claim to be propaganda.

[The Modern Prometheus]

I fail to see why do leftist repeat state propaganda of ISIS (ISIL, IS) being the greatest threat to worlds stability, future, peace... I fail to see why do leftists invent stupid slogans like "fight the fascist islamist gangs" etc.

ISIS will be dealt with in near future by allies of US imperialism. Then we will hear for another great threat from some exotic, but poor, country that can destroy "our way of life".

All this cheerleading for US imperialism and imaginary revolutions going on in besiged towns is ridiculous and sad.

I fail to see why a Socialist would support the likes of ISIS who are killing anyone that does not believe in their version of Sharia Law. Would you rather the world sat back and let them murder all people who do not follow their extreme interpretation of Salafi Islam which is about as far right as you can get in Islam as is? Because that is pretty much what they are doing or trying to do. Since when did Socialists start supporting religious fanatics just because they tell the west to go fuck themselves? I hate imperialism and ISIS are even more imperialistic then the US is and in this situation i would gladly take the lesser of the 2 evils. Atleast US troops won't go chopping the heads off any woman they see not wearing a burqa or having the nerve to get a education for themselves.

We should be supporting the PKK in their fight against ISIS as they are actually committed to non sectarianism, gender equality and other ideas that have evolved since after the dark ages which is where ISIS is stuck in basically. If ridding the world of the likes of ISIS means having to deal with the US for air support who cares as long as the bombs keep falling on ISIS? With any luck the US will step up bombing on ISIS targets as that is what needs to be done. As long as ISIS gets slaughtered who cares where the bombs come from?

[khad]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0A9lNRIgAAEvMJ.jpg:large

As a side note, the Syrian Army is attempting to besiege the ISIS stronghold of Deir Ezzor city. If they finish clearing out river islands overlooking the city, it will be completely besieged. This will likely impact the Islamic State's ability to send reinforcements to other fronts.

Also, in Iraq, ISIS is on the move against the Peshmerga, following the announcement of reinforcements for Kobane.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/20/us-mideast-crisis-iraq-idUSKCN0I91XU20141020


Islamic State insurgents advance into Iraqi town of Qara Tappa
BAGHDAD Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:12pm EDT

(Reuters) - Islamic State militants advanced on the Iraqi town of Qara Tappa on Monday disguised as Kurdish peshmerga fighters, Kurdish security sources said.

They seized two Kurdish villages after surprising the Kurdish fighters before launching the attack on Qara Tappa, 120 km (75 miles) north of Baghdad, seeking to expand their territory and heap pressure on Kurdish forces in disputed areas.

"The terrorists were wearing peshmerga uniforms and this tactic helped them to easily infiltrate our defences near Qara Tappa," a peshmerga officer said on condition of anonymity.

[Erfurt 1891]

I fail to see why a Socialist would support the likes of ISIS who are killing anyone that does not believe in their version of Sharia Law. Would you rather the world sat back and let them murder all people who do not follow their extreme interpretation of Salafi Islam which is about as far right as you can get in Islam as is? Because that is pretty much what they are doing or trying to do. Since when did Socialists start supporting religious fanatics just because they tell the west to go fuck themselves? I hate imperialism and ISIS are even more imperialistic then the US is and in this situation i would gladly take the lesser of the 2 evils. Atleast US troops won't go chopping the heads off any woman they see not wearing a burqa or having the nerve to get a education for themselves. Who is supporting ISIS? Are you braindead?

US allies in region are chopping heads of people. Check out Saudi Arabia.

And US soliders have bombed that region so much that people have started growing bombs instead of vegetables. Is that "progressive"? Is that "lesser evil"? No. That is what imperialism does.

If you have ever been in war you would understand difference quite well.


We should be supporting the PKK in their fight against ISIS as they are actually committed to non sectarianism, gender equality and other ideas that have evolved since after the dark ages which is where ISIS is stuck in basically. So, we should support organisation with history of anti-working class activities, rape, extortion, heroin trade and elimination of leftist activists? Do you even have a clue what PKK is or did you just got your "information" by reading silly Western leftists that can't even point where Kurdistan is on the map?


If ridding the world of the likes of ISIS means having to deal with the US for air support who cares as long as the bombs keep falling on ISIS? With any luck the US will step up bombing on ISIS targets as that is what needs to be done. As long as ISIS gets slaughtered who cares where the bombs come from?Good to see that you are cheerleading for US imperialism. It's easier to ignore nationalists like you.

But then again, since you don't care where do bombs come from, I'd like to give you a little idea of what bombing is about: www .mintpressnews .com/only-4-of-drone-victims-in-pakistan-named-as-al-qaeda-members/197914/ (I can't post links yet)

[Devrim]

Well ISIS would stand no chance in a fight against the Turkish state but if they did seize Kobane the Turks may have to directly confront ISIS thus making a bigger mess then there already is.

Why would the Turkish state have to confront the Da'esh? Do you seriously think that the Da'esh have a plan to invade Turkey?


Also even though ISIS is certainly not equipped to take on Turkey they could certainly spark off a nasty war along the border...

To the Turkish state a 'nasty war' as you call it is much more preferable than PKK control.


i can only see this further enraging alot of the Kurds sympathetic to the PKK. Thus when/if ISIS is crushed or burned out it could mean much more violence between the PKK and Turkish state in the future.

It's nothing new though. There has been thirty years of war between the Turkish state and the PKK.


Their goals may be to overthrow Assad and damage the PKK as much as possible but the war in Syria would no doubt turn into a fucking blood bath of even bigger proportions and further destabilize the entire region.

As I said before, for the Turkish state destabilization is preferable to PKK control.


Then again who the fuck am i kidding by thinking that Turkey of all states gives 2 shits about collateral damage even to their own people.

This is more clear thinking.

Devrim

[Zukunftsmusik]

So you support ISIS?

...lol.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

This thread is fucking stupid. Opposing intervention doesn't make you an ISIS supporter and opposing ISIS doesn't make you a NATO stooge or a nationalist.

Do you all actually want to discuss this, or are you just interested in airing out your pathetic internet rivalries?

[Thirsty Crow]

This thread is fucking stupid. Opposing intervention doesn't make you an ISIS supporter and opposing ISIS doesn't make you a NATO stooge or a nationalist.

Do you all actually want to discuss this, or are you just interested in airing out your pathetic internet rivalries?I'm not so sure that it's airing e-rivalries that's the underlying problem here. It seems to me that basically this mud slinging contests rests on pretending (or goading oneself into actually believing) that laying bare our thoughts here is in some way equal to actual support (so explicit opposition to all sides in the conflict - supported by clear argument - becomes "objective support" for the stronger side etc etc).

And I'd speculate that there is a particular activist mentality underlying this, which can summarily be described as "do something at all cost" (and if you can't - pretend that you can).

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I'm not so sure that it's airing e-rivalries that's the underlying problem here. It seems to me that basically this mud slinging contests rests on pretending (or goading oneself into actually believing) that laying bare our thoughts here is in some way equal to actual support (so explicit opposition to all sides in the conflict - supported by clear argument - becomes "objective support" for the stronger side etc etc).

And I'd speculate that there is a particular activist mentality underlying this, which can summarily be described as "do something at all cost" (and if you can't - pretend that you can).

You might be right but I can't help but notice two or three people drag this style of argument out in every thread and typically it's with one another. Skimming this thread, it's like they're appealing to an audience that doesn't exist. Let's all take a moment to familiarize ourselves with the private message function.

[PhoenixAsh]

While I agree with the core of what LinksRadical is saying (we do tend to get in those discussions often ;) ) I arrive at the opposite conclusion and attribute this to the theoretical purists approach and culture of denouncing other users as non revolutionaries and liberals based on ...words... which tends to turn debates in witch hunts.

But yes...there is a deep rooted rivalry between theorists and activists on this forum running through the normal tendency lines.

[Sasha]

While I agree with the core of what LinksRadical is saying (we do tend to get in those discussions often ;) ) I arrive at the opposite conclusion and attribute this to the theoretical purists approach and culture of denouncing other users as non revolutionaries and liberals based on ...words... which tends to turn debates in witch hunts.

yeah, its not that Devrim started that "do you support" thread not as total bait for this shit.

[Devrim]

yeah, its not that Devrim started that "do you support" thread not as total bait for this shit.

No, I started it because I was genuinely interested in learning what the left in the West was saying, as I said in the OP. I don't behave like that. Don't judge others by your own standards.

Devrim

[PhoenixAsh]

No, I started it because I was genuinely interested in learning what the left in the West was saying, as I said in the OP. I don't behave like that. Don't judge others by your own standards.

Devrim

You know what site your on. And you know how those threads always, unfailingly, spiral out of control....but here you are trying to pretend that your intentions were honest and are misunderstood.

[PhoenixAsh]

And of course we have your o so not totally opportunistic defense of users who unfailingly can be counted on to spiral those threads out of control....and this statement:


if I had any conviction that any of the people running revleft were half decent at the task

Absolutely totally contradicts your statement that you don't behave like that.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Shouldn't the goal be to avoid it going out of control in the first place? Who else would be able to prevent that if not the mods? I'm not trying to pile on but for real, how is anyone else supposed to even participate in this discussion at this point?

[Zukunftsmusik]

You know what site your on. And you know how those threads always, unfailingly, spiral out of control....but here you are trying to pretend that your intentions were honest and are misunderstood.

Oh for fuck's sake. Why ever post anything on this site? It all spirals out of anyway, amirite? And this comes from a moderator... In case you didn't know, your task is to moderate. Part of that task is not letting threads spin out of control.

I can't be sure of Devrim's intentions, of course, but judging from his OP and general activity in that thread there is no reason to believe he has some hidden, sinister motives - what would those be, anyway?

[Sharia Lawn]

You do realize that most of the propaganda against ISIS is actually being claimed by ISIS, right? That they themselves are saying these things which you claim to be propaganda.

Are you faulting Erfurt for not accepting ISIS propaganda? It sure looks like it.

[Sasha]

nothing sinister, just very human motives, an opportunity to feeling smug and superior. we all do it, some are just more honest about it.

[PhoenixAsh]

Shouldn't the goal be to avoid it going out of control in the first place? Who else would be able to prevent that if not the mods? I'm not trying to pile on but for real, how is anyone else supposed to even participate in this discussion at this point?

We have two rules:

1). Don't flame
2). Mods can't mod a debate they are participating in

We get flack either way but those rules make mods free targets.

And some users interpretation of what constiututes actual flaming is such that it suits their opportunistic needs and these rules are used to create .

To give an example: When somebody is continuously insulted based on red herrings and strawman and basically insults somebodies family who are gassed and executed for their activism as no real revolutionaries then the reply "fuck you and you are a baffoon" is immediately called flaming. And doing so is abuse of power or makes a mod uitsuitable to mod.

So what can be done?

Well we are on a communist/anarchist revolutionary forum...how about some community responsibility?

[Zukunftsmusik]

nothing sinister, just very human motives, an opportunity to feeling smug and superior. we all do it, some are just more honest about it.

Or maybe the intention was to, you know, start a discussion on the issue.

[PhoenixAsh]

Oh for fuck's sake. Why ever post anything on this site? It all spirals out of anyway, amirite? And this comes from a moderator... In case you didn't know, your task is to moderate. Part of that task is not letting threads spin out of control.

I can't be sure of Devrim's intentions, of course, but judging from his OP and general activity in that thread there is no reason to believe he has some hidden, sinister motives - what would those be, anyway?

In case you didn't know,...user added rule: mods can't mod threads they participate in.

So perhaps take some community responsibility?

[Sharia Lawn]

We have two rules:

1). Don't flame

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2793921&postcount=223


Well we are on a communist/anarchist revolutionary forum...how about some community responsibility?

I would be all for assigning collective responsibility for moderation. So when are the moderation positions going to be collectively and democratically decided?

[PhoenixAsh]

Or maybe the intention was to, you know, start a discussion on the issue.

Like a user would honestly start a thread on the "accusations of class treacherous nature of Trotskyism" or "Anarchists are they really closet liberals?" ?

Maybe those intentions were honest, sincere deep desires to have debates in the issue.

And when you have a forum member that is new...that might actually be the case.

Yet when you talk about a years long member who knows how this shit works...then yes...perhaps they were sincere...yet should have known better.

It is very funny how every user is sincere and every BA member is always having a secret agenda or is dishonest or sees the worst in people and should give people the benefit of the doubt.

[PhoenixAsh]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2793921&postcount=223
I would be all for assigning collective responsibility for moderation. So when are the moderation positions going to be collectively and democratically decided?

Never as long as you are a member on this forum.

I also never said collectively become moderators. I was talking about calling other users (with whom I oa. meant you as an example btw) out on their bullshit behaviour and point them to their responsibility to maintain composure and actually adher to the rules.

Have you actually read the rules Izvestia? Or should I quote them for you:



Flaming

Excessive flaming is not permitted on RevLeft. While we understand that many issues discussed here are controversial and emotionally charged, we also understand that emotional responses can get out of hand. This means that posts containing little but personal insults, name-calling and/or threats are not permitted.

Repeated flaming in posts containing nothing of substance except flames will result in warning points, and incorrigible offenders may be banned. In some cases threads which degenerate into "flame wars" will be locked with the participants prohibited from reviving them in any form.

Now...I could of course make a nice selection of the multiple times you flamed, made ad hominems etc in that very same thread...and once again show your hypocracy. But since most of the quotes you posted in that little "washing your hands in innocence post" were not actual examples of flaming but me calling you out on you doing exactly what I said you were doing and proving that with *gasp* quotes of you doing exactly that...well...your shit stinks to high heaven and is quite obvious. As it was when you entered that debate on the basis of an obvious strawman against IZ in order to paint him as a liberal.

You are one of the examples when I say that there are users here who will stop at nothing trying to goad, red herring and strawman other users and you are actually one of the people I point at when I say they turn every discussion into a theoretical purist witch hunt.

Now kindly...like I said...stop being a little pest and stop following me around.

[Sasha]

Or maybe the intention was to, you know, start a discussion on the issue.


in general one starts discussions by a. positioning their own opinion or at least explain why you dont do so for the sake of the discussion (devrim hasnt, as far as i followed that thread, even taken the time to offer his own answer nor of his own tendency in all 15 pages of the thread, he did however express his veiled disappointed that against his expectations not more people voted "yes").
b. when it comes to complicated questions as the middle east mess one should ask for an in dept answer and not a "yes"/"no" one word answer with your tendency and organization named as if one is collecting a list of good and bad guys. As someone who isnt for the airstrikes in general but wouldnt go out of his way to protest them taking place around kobane i can still both have more agreements with an kurd who supports them and a principled left-com like devrim himself who opposes them than with some rabid assad loving anti-imp or a all but in name imperialism supporting anti-muslim western liberal.

but this is all wildly going offtopic.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

My community responsibility is not responding to troll arguments for multiple pages at the expense of the entire discussion. The only thing anyone says about 870 is how full of shit he is, just ignore him and he'll stop posting, or he'll continue and everyone will continue to ignore him.

[Sharia Lawn]

I also never said collectively become moderators. I was talking about calling other users (with whom I oa. meant you as an example btw) out on their bullshit behaviour and point them to their responsibility to maintain composure and actually adher to the rules.

Normal users, like me, can and do try to call out abusive behavior. The point is that we have no power beyond that. Faulting people for not taking communal responsibility on a forum where authority is set up in a way that discourages taking collective responsibility just rings a little hollow.


Have you actually read the rules Izvestia? Or should I quote them for you:I didn't say the forum rules specified no flaming. You did. I quoted you. So I guess you should be asking yourself that question.


Now...I could of course make a nice selection of the multiple times you flamed, made ad hominems etc in that very same thread.Please do. I await your results.

[PhoenixAsh]

Normal users, like me, can and do try to call out abusive behavior. The point is that we have no power beyond that. Faulting people for not taking communal responsibility on a forum where authority is set up in a way that discourages taking collective responsibility just rings a little hollow.

There is nothing in this forum discouraging from preventing to take responsibility collective or otherwise. And in fact if users were actually doing that this would be highly beneficial to the site and exactly for the reason that there is no power in that dialogue. As it stand however...it rarely ever happens and when it does it usually targets a mod...or a mod who has taken action against it.


I didn't say the forum rules specified no flaming. You did. I quoted you. So I guess you should be asking yourself that question.

Please do. I await your results.

And that is the problem right there. You forget some information there. We have the rule "don't flame" but we also have a definition of what we mean by that.

As is appatent some users have wildly varying definitions when it comes to flaming and insulting and usually that is opportunistic interpretation of the rules.

As is evident by your link to your post what you say is flaming. And I say is not.

[Sharia Lawn]

There is nothing in this forum discouraging from preventing to take responsibility collective or otherwise. And in fact if users were actually doing that this would be highly beneficial to the site and exactly for the reason that there is no power in that dialogue. As it stand however...it rarely ever happens and when it does it usually targets a mod...or a mod who has taken action against it.



And that is the problem right there. You forget some information there. We have the rule "don't flame" but we also have a definition of what we mean by that.

As is appatent some users have wildly varying definitions when it comes to flaming and insulting and usually that is opportunistic interpretation of the rules.

As is evident by your link to your post what you say is flaming. And I say is not.

You like to draw equivalence between your flaming, and others' flaming, in order to suggest that your flaming isn't excessive. Even if we assume that the role of the moderator isn't to behave better than the normal user to set an example, I have challenged your claim that you are just doing what others have done. You've been asked to provide evidence of my flaming you. Where is it?

[PhoenixAsh]

What am I? Your fucking monkey?

Wait until I will make time.

[Devrim]

in general one starts discussions by a. positioning their own opinion or at least explain why you dont do so for the sake of the discussion (devrim hasnt, as far as i followed that thread, even taken the time to offer his own answer nor of his own tendency in all 15 pages of the thread, he did however express his veiled disappointed that against his expectations not more people voted "yes").


I have followed the thread. I didn't get a bit bored of it, and only skim through it when it became just a couple of people just arguing with each other. I think a lot of people do.

The left communist position on this is that we don't support Americans dropping bombs on the Middle East.

Maybe I didn't express myself clearly with the other thing. I wasn't at all disappointed that more people didn't vote 'yes'. I was surprised, possibly because of how much of the left here is interventionist.

Devrim

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

http://www.diclehaber.com/en/news/content/view/410688?from=1923065108

What do you guys think of this? Particularly those leaning towards support for the pkk and their front groups? This sounds like basic conscription to me not very libertarian, it also sounds like it effectively puts a ban on fighting units that are not under the direct command of YPG bosses. Thoughts?

Edit: not to throw anyone off, it's from July. I just haven't seen any discussion of it

[Sasha]

http://www.diclehaber.com/en/news/content/view/410688?from=1923065108

What do you guys think of this? Particularly those leaning towards support for the pkk and their front groups? This sounds like basic conscription to me not very libertarian, it also sounds like it effectively puts a ban on fighting units that are not under the direct command of YPG bosses. Thoughts?


i would certainly choose different wordings (law, disciplinery measures, country etc, maybe there is also some shoddy translation here) but if formulated in a basis-democratic process this doesnt seem unreasonable for me to ask of those living under the protection of the self defense groups under full blown warfare.
i dont know enough about how YPG units are structured and command is given to say whether i would participate or argue to form an separate militia but it still seems quite far from the "SEE CONSCRIPTION AT GUNPOINT TO FIGHT FOR THE IMPERIALISTS!!!" i have already seen thrown about.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Even if we accept that it was adopted according to democratic principals, it still leaves the possibility that there are people fighting in YPG units against their will. I can't bring myself to overlook that. Combine that with a ban on independent fighting units and yeah it's pretty suspicious you have to admit. If this was a new organization, not tied to the pkk's past I could maybe hold out some hope.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Since some people have been on the topic, I'd love some thoughts on this editorial cartoon from the Daily Star (Lebanon):

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/dailystar/Comics/15-10-2014/7%20cartoon_635489282231399594_main.jpg

[PhoenixAsh]

i think that cartoon pretty much illustrates why focussing on US bombs is limiting in any meaningful discussion on imperialism and doesn't accurately reflect the situation.

[The Modern Prometheus]

Who is supporting ISIS? Are you braindead?


Well it sounded like you were more or less shooting down ISIS's own propaganda more or less as ISIS are the ones who claim they are doing these acts to instill terror in their enemies. Maybe i misunderstood you i dunno. And no despite years of my best efforts in my younger years i still have a few brain cells knocking around


US allies in region are chopping heads of people. Check out Saudi Arabia.


I said the US not any of their allies. As for Saudi Arabia i think that goes without saying. Not to mention that Salafi movement is the dominant sect in Saudi Arabia and they pretty much export that bullshit to anyone fucked enough to believe in it.


And US soliders have bombed that region so much that people have started growing bombs instead of vegetables. Is that "progressive"? Is that "lesser evil"? No. That is what imperialism does.


At the moment they are the lesser of 2 evils yes.



If you have ever been in war you would understand difference quite well.

I guess i should have signed up to go to Afghanistan after all then :rolleyes: . What war have you been in or did you just throw that out there as a part of your non argument?


So, we should support organisation with history of anti-working class activities, rape, extortion, heroin trade and elimination of leftist activists? Do you even have a clue what PKK is or did you just got your "information" by reading silly Western leftists that can't even point where Kurdistan is on the map?

Well since i don't know a whole lot of western leftists in the social sense atleast (i am not counting Liberals or Social-Democrats in there) i supported them long before ISIS came about. The last time i checked their primary ideology is of a Socialist national liberation movement for a autonomous Kurdish region.


Good to see that you are cheerleading for US imperialism. It's easier to ignore nationalists like you.

Where am i cheerleading for US imperialism? I could make the same ridiculous argument about you more or less supporting a pacifist stance against ISIS. And yes please ignore me in the future.


But then again, since you don't care where do bombs come from, I'd like to give you a little idea of what bombing is about: www .mintpressnews .com/only-4-of-drone-victims-in-pakistan-named-as-al-qaeda-members/197914/ (I can't post links yet)

Wow i didn't know about that one either. Must be my western ignorance sorry about that :rolleyes:

[bricolage]

You'd think the US would at least know where to drop things but...

Jenan Moussa ‏@jenanmoussa 24s25 seconds ago
#Kobane: ISIS says they captured U.S airdropped aid (grenades, RPGs) meant for Kurds/ YPG. Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOuPX6z50EM

[PhoenixAsh]

I wasn't at all disappointed that more people didn't vote 'yes'. I was surprised, possibly because of how much of the left here is interventionist.

It is 10 people out of 126 votes. It is slightly smaller than 8%.

But the debate about policy and tactics is stifled and there will be no expression or exchange of ideas when discussions are continuously goaded by a faction of users who think their idea is the only idea and that it defines who is and who isn't a revolutionary or who is shilling for imperialism based on the level of agreement with that sole idea and tactic.

And, Devrim, you are one of those people albeit to a lesser extend than others.

Now the irony is that while you child me, without argument no less, for shilling for imperialism...I think the exact same thing of the LeftCom position as you communicate it here and the more or less same opinion others have communicated in the other thread:


The left communist position on this is that we don't support Americans dropping bombs on the Middle East.

Not only do I think it is shilling for imperialism, but I also think reducing the issue of imperialism to the act of bombings is faulty analysis, flawed, dangerous and lacking a comprehensive solution that has any value for the people in Kobane now.

And that is a debate not only about theory, but about tactics. Which has value and should be debated while accepting that there are other views which do not necessarilly warrant the label shilling for imperialism or liberal. But as it stands now, as has always been the case, theoretical purists will not accept other view points beyond their respective sects.

Now you say you were interested in an honest exchange of ideas and I want to believe you...yet you have not shown this at all.

Not only did you not participate in that thread beyond the first page (long, long before it became a debate between two people) but when you reentered your participation was limited in its entirety to an accusation without argument. So excuse me if I find your post here lacking in sincerity.

[PhoenixAsh]

You'd think the US would at least know where to drop things but...

Jenan Moussa ‏@jenanmoussa 24s25 seconds ago
#Kobane: ISIS says they captured U.S airdropped aid (grenades, RPGs) meant for Kurds/ YPG. Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOuPX6z50EM

This is not really surprising and it is indicative of the fog of war of urban guerilly fighting. From what I have gathered 15-25% of bombing runs were to destroy wrongly dropped weapon and aid shipments.

[Devrim]

I wasn't at all disappointed that more people didn't vote 'yes'. I was surprised, possibly because of how much of the left here is interventionist.


It is 10 people out of 126 votes. It is slightly smaller than 8%.

Maybe I wasn't that clear in this sentence, and it's my fault. If you put it in the context of the original thread though it is clear:


Well two people have. To be honest I suspected it would be more. Here in Turkey the Kurdish nationalists, and much of the left are calling for intervention. People are dying on the streets for it. As far as I can see most of the foreign left has lined up with the PKK. I was just wondering how far they had taken it.

'Here meant 'here in Turkey'. Yes, I think most of the left is interventionist here.


But the debate about policy and tactics is stifled and there will be no expression or exchange of ideas when discussions are continuously goaded by a faction of users who think their idea is the only idea and that it defines who is and who isn't a revolutionary or who is shilling for imperialism based on the level of agreement with that sole idea and tactic.

And, Devrim, you are one of those people albeit to a lesser extend than others.


Not only did you not participate in that thread beyond the first page (long, long before it became a debate between two people) but when you reentered your participation was limited in its entirety to an accusation without argument. So excuse me if I find your post here lacking in sincerity.

So this is a bit confusing now. Did I not participate or did I goad people? Surely I didn't do both.


Not only did you not participate in that thread beyond the first page (long, long before it became a debate between two people) but when you reentered your participation was limited in its entirety to an accusation without argument.

What I said was this:


I have followed the thread. I didn't get a bit bored of it, and only skim through it when it became just a couple of people just arguing with each other. I think a lot of people do.

There is a typo. It shouldn't have been negative. I did get bored of it. But yes, I followed it. It didn't mean I commented. It meant I followed it. At the moment I have a lot on in life, and don't have time to comment on here that much. I wanted to know what the Western left groups though. Is that so unbelievable?

I commented on your behavior as I thought it was awful, but I have said all I have to say about that.


Now you say you were interested in an honest exchange of ideas and I want to believe you...yet you have not shown this at all.

No, I said I was interested in what people thought. I didn't say I wanted an exchange. I just don't have time for it at the moment.

I tend to treat people at face value. I believe what they say they want. I don't think any other method can develop discussion. You obviously have a different method.

As for the actual politics, no we do not have a similar approach at all:


Not only do I think it is shilling for imperialism, but I also think reducing the issue of imperialism to the act of bombings is faulty analysis, flawed, dangerous and lacking a comprehensive solution that has any value for the people in Kobane now.

My sympathies, as much as they are worth, go to all of the people being massacred in this latest round of wars in the Middle East from the people in Kobane to the members of Da'esh dying in the sane battle, from Yazidis massacred by the Da'esh to Sunnis massacred by Shia militias or the Syrian state. Working class people are dying on all sides of this war. I don't see the solution being in backing one ethnic/sectarian gang over another, as you seem to do.

For the communist left it is clear that the various sides in this struggle are against the working class, and that workers and peasants are dying on, and being murdered by, all sides.


I think the exact same thing of the LeftCom position as you communicate it here and the more or less same opinion others have communicated in the other thread:

No, you don't. You are a huge distance away from us, and in my opinion this distance crosses the class line. We are against all states, and all nationalist gangs. You are lining up on the side of one of them.

Devrim

[Slavic]

i would certainly choose different wordings (law, disciplinery measures, country etc, maybe there is also some shoddy translation here) but if formulated in a basis-democratic process this doesnt seem unreasonable for me to ask of those living under the protection of the self defense groups under full blown warfare.
i dont know enough about how YPG units are structured and command is given to say whether i would participate or argue to form an separate militia but it still seems quite far from the "SEE CONSCRIPTION AT GUNPOINT TO FIGHT FOR THE IMPERIALISTS!!!" i have already seen thrown about.


How far from "Conscription at gunpoint" is it really?

This is a law since it is putting forth a requirement which is ensured by disciplinary measures. The article didn't go on to explain what these disciplinary measures are, but I highly doubt it is a scolding with no supper.

Laws are maintained with force, they are authoritarian in nature. Regardless of the situation on the ground, I do not support forced conscription. I don't think that you should be forced to fight in a war just because a militia in your town democratically agreed to force you to fight.

[aty]

They are now an auxiliary force for US imperialism.

Devrim

You are the biggest fucking idiot I have ever seen and a representative of everything that is wrong with the "left".

There I said it. Fuck you and your high horses.

[Sasha]

@slavic, I agree mostly, but should people who catagoraly would refuse to contribute to the collective in any form be given the comfort to enjoy its protection, should people be put at risk to get killed to protect people who wouldnt do the same for them? Its a difficult problem, an high presured version of the "should people who refuse to work be allowed to eat in communism" that noobs always ask here but one in which the normal answer, "ultimately people who refuse to contribute could be banished from the commune" shouldnt be an option because of their certain fate if ejected into daesh territory. So what to do, like said, i think this certain language as formulated in the article (of which i still wonder wheter its correctly translated btw) is woringly statist/centralised and authoritarian but some form of "any member of the commune is under expectation and obligation to contribute to its defence in some tangiable meaningfull form" is not unreasonable, the exact form or shape it should take is for me theoratical at best and i wonder how i would agrue in a war of anahilation situation.

[Devrim]

You are the biggest fucking idiot I have ever seen and a representative of everything that is wrong with the "left".

There I said it. Fuck you and your high horses.

It's good to see such a high level of discourse on here.

Of course, the PKK are now being armed by the West, and are guiding in American air strikes from the ground, and are talking about how they want to be part of the US coalition because they are a completely independent organisation and not effectively acting as a U.S. auxiliary at all. How could I have been so foolish as to not see it?

Devrim

[khad]

http://www.diclehaber.com/en/news/content/view/410688?from=1923065108

What do you guys think of this? Particularly those leaning towards support for the pkk and their front groups? This sounds like basic conscription to me not very libertarian, it also sounds like it effectively puts a ban on fighting units that are not under the direct command of YPG bosses. Thoughts?

Edit: not to throw anyone off, it's from July. I just haven't seen any discussion of it
18-30 year olds getting conscripted is better than their tradition of press ganging kids into service. That's all I have to say about this article, as I think very little of the ideological commitment of the PKK. They're just doing what any armed group would do when faced with severe external pressure.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/05/turkey-kurdish-pkk-kidnap-children-erdogan-bdp-hdp.html

[Slavic]

@slavic, I agree mostly, but should people who catagoraly would refuse to contribute to the collective in any form be given the comfort to enjoy its protection, should people be put at risk to get killed to protect people who wouldnt do the same for them? Its a difficult problem, an high presured version of the "should people who refuse to work be allowed to eat in communism" that noobs always ask here but one in which the normal answer, "ultimately people who refuse to contribute could be banished from the commune" shouldnt be an option because of their certain fate if ejected into daesh territory. So what to do, like said, i think this certain language as formulated in the article (of which i still wonder wheter its correctly translated btw) is woringly statist/centralised and authoritarian but some form of "any member of the commune is under expectation and obligation to contribute to its defence in some tangiable meaningfull form" is not unreasonable, the exact form or shape it should take is for me theoratical at best and i wonder how i would agrue in a war of anahilation situation.

I understand where you are coming from, my issue only arises in the authoritarian method in which the common defense is maintained.

If I were in a situation that was similar to the war in Kobane, I would enlist in the militia and encourage and expect all other able body men and women to enlist as well,but I draw the line between encourage and forcing.

As with the other typical arguments that we see here, "Do we feed those who don't work?". I am of the understanding that all members of the community should be housed, fed, and protected regardless of their participation in society. Do I think it is ok for members to not assist their community in times of need, no I do not, but I do not see authoritarian measures as the answer.

[PhoenixAsh]

I think we seem to be having some translation problems so I will start at the end of your post first to clear them up.



As for the actual politics, no we do not have a similar approach at all (...) No, you don't. You are a huge distance away from us, and in my opinion this distance crosses the class line. We are against all states, and all nationalist gangs. You are lining up on the side of one of them.

I never said I was close to you. Reread that statement I made. I am, as you correctly state, miles away from you and I want to be miles away from you. Why? Because I think your position of theoretical purity is shilling for imperialism and can not be considered revolutionary outside a theoretical framework in any workable sense.

What I named ironic was the fact that we both arrive at the same conclusion about each others approach.

What I think is similar is your position and those of a few other users who are not LeftComs but who hold the same position of theoretical purity.

The difference between you (and those users) and me is that I would not question your revolutionary credentials based on this and that you, like so many other theoretical purist are, as it seems, a firm believer in the "one true position" to which all other positions are measured.

And that I conclude from the fact that you (and those users I mentioned) seem to leap to conclusions. The conclusion that if you do not hold the same position as you do...therefore you must line up with one of the sides of the bourgeois/nationalist/liberal gangs.

Now aside from the fact that that is some dodgy logic and reasoning...it turns out that this is always what theoretical purist are doing.

Having cleared that up...I will come back to our mutual positions later. Because at this point I want to address the other part of the discussion we are having.


I commented on your behavior as I thought it was awful, but I have said all I have to say about that.

Well aside from the fact that I obviously think you should reread the thread and see what brought on my ire against Izvestia and dished out as good as he gave considering he was being such a deceitful debater who had no reason to even start an exchange the way he did...I was not talking about that. What I was talking about was this:


Here I think you are acting as an apologist for imperialism. ...without any form of argument.

That little tadbit as well as what I described simply indicates that not only you don't understand my argument (to which I will come back later) but it also underlines what I wrote above.

Now lets get back to our positions and how you jump to conclusions.



You are lining up on the side of one of them.

Now I could be asking you to back that up with me saying anything of the sorts...anywhere. Instead I could quote myself saying that the only side I am taking is the side of the working class.

Instead I will rather explain once again what my position is.

* Truism: no bourgeois state will act out of pitty with the working class unless it pays them to do so and furthers their own goals.
* Truism: whatever the US/EU does will always be seen as imperialist no matter what not because it is...but because the US/EU does it.
* There are no non-imperialist actors on the field. All sided in the conflict are either imperialists, tools for imperialism...or both.
* Focussing on one of these actors excessively is faulty analysis of what is going on and ignores the imperialist aspirations and roles played by other nations, factions and states.
* Opposing acts of the US as the most important imperialism is faulty analysis and says there is a bad and a less bad kind of imperialism. This is not the case.
* The bombings are not the epithomy of imperialism. Saying they are is faulty analysis and ignores the totality of the endeavours of the US and obfuscates the goals of imperialism.
* Reducing US imperialism to the act of bombings is useless. Those bombings are not the issue and merely a small factor in the totality of US imperialism. That totality is the issue. It should not be reduced to
acts.
* Doing so however creates the appearance that imperialism is limited to acts of war. This is not an accurate or adequate reflection of imperialism
and focussing on these acts is misleading topical politics. That this is problematic is in part shown by the decline of the anti-war momevent.
* Doing so also creates the impression that there is a good and a bad kind of imperialism. Why? Because quite obviously the Kurdish working class in Kobani as well as large swats of the Kurdish working class in
general up to and including revolutionary and semi-revolutionary groups do not think the bombings are such a bad thing for them at the current moment. Much of the working class of the entire globe agrees. This is an
inconvenient truth for theoretical purists. (I will be coming back to this further on)
* Any condemnation of imperialism should be complete, total and should be aimed at exposing the totality of imperialist ambitions and machinations and should expose their effects on the working
classnot just empty sloganeering like: "no US bombs on ME soil"...those we encounter enough at liberal rallies....and not just at one imperialist faction. We live in a global society and there is ample
opportunity for revolutionaries to put this in practice.
* Opposing imperialism should always and foremost start with strengthening the working class under direct and imminent threat from imperialist actions.

And here is where it gets murky and theory isn't adequate enough.

This position...as you word here:



My sympathies, as much as they are worth, go to all of the people being massacred in this latest round of wars in the Middle East from the people in Kobane to the members of Da'esh dying in the sane battle, from Yazidis massacred by the Da'esh to Sunnis massacred by Shia militias or the Syrian state. Working class people are dying on all sides of this war. I don't see the solution being in backing one ethnic/sectarian gang over another, as you seem to do.

For the communist left it is clear that the various sides in this struggle are against the working class, and that workers and peasants are dying on, and being murdered by, all sides.

Is a huge cop out. It is basically shrugging your shoulders, shaking your fist and saying "Oh well..they are fucked. Bad imperialists." Basically you are giving up on parts of the working class to maintain ideological and theoretical purity. This is what, in my experience, alsmost always happens in LeftCom ideology and with theoretical and ideological purists. 870 (not a LeftCom) would be more than willing to sacrifice hundreds and more to satisfy his ideological purity and would shrug it off as "inevitable and unfortunate" much like you seem to be doing here. To their credit I know a lot of LeftComs who don't go that far and seem to be under the impression that ideology is nice...but there is such a thing as urgency and priorities.

Now I don't have the same pitty for members of Da'esh as you do. I don't. I have pitty for the Sunni Muslims who think Da'esh is a solution or for all those living under Da'esh rule. Perhaps you are a better person than I am or perhaps you don't accurately comprehend what Da'esh is. We will leave that for another topic.

Those US bombings however have very little to do with the Shia-Sunni divide. Those bombings have very little to do with Shia massacres against Sunni's. That is US imperialism in totality you are talking about as well as Saudi, Turkish, EU, Russian and Israeli imperialism.

When we are talking about the bombings as a specific act then we are talking about the situation in and around Kobani.

A situation that would not exist outside the power plays in the extended region...and which are a direct and conscious result of imperialist aspirations of several factions. Without THOSE aspirations...this situation as well as the bombings would not have occured.

One further reason why I say the bombings are in fact unimportant in the larger scheme of things and should not feature as the main focus of anti-imperialism.

Now what your analysis about states doesn't say is that the working class in Kobani is under direct threat of several factions and most pressingly and most notably the factions of Da'esh/ISIS and Turkey. And while we can lament the faith of ISIS members and fighters those are the aggressor faction for the working class in Kobani.

Saying that they should be protected and should not fall in the hands of a faction which is substantially more dangerous in the short term for them than any other faction currently on the field.... If only for the fact that ISIS has repeatedly stated and proven to be true to their word that they will kill every man, woman and child in Kobani once they have taken the city. ....is not taking sides with a bourgeois faction. Saying that directly entails that these people are given up as unfortunate collateral.

Which is the inconvenient truth I mentioned.

It is however taking sides with the working class in Kobani. Not with anybody else. You take somebody at vace value? So show me where I have said otherwise. Now that working class is currently not attacking anybody but defending and under attack from a bourgeois, imperialist entity. I think that sets priority...you don't.

And this is directly why I am saying that your position is shilling for imperialism. No matter what happens...to you it is the logical outcome of imperialism and therefore it is inevitable as long as imperialism exists. Ideological purity states that we should break up the fight and oppose all sides. Reality dictates that imperialists are notoriously bad in listening to the working class and will probably not listen after we marched on the embassies. So opposing ISIS, the US and whatever faction is all really important on the long run. But it doesn't help the working class in Kobani one iota on the short term. And your analysis means we as revolutionaries are collectively watching on the side lines as the working class in Kobani get slaughtered for the profits of one imperialist faction or another. This is never a good signal to the working class.

Now we have revolutionaries talking about arming the Kurdish working class. And I quite agree. They are talking about forming revolutionary defence councils. And I quite agree. Unfortunately arming the Kurds will require somebody to arm them and unless there is a revolutionary faction I am not aware of who can supply them with the weaponry and tools they need...that they haven't gotten through one imperialist faction or another...they will need those imperialist factions.

And that is something you will never actually endorse or acknowledge.

Now you equate that with endorsing imperialism. I reject that notion. The fact of the matter is that when imperialists fight the working class is doing the bleeding. No matter what happens

So we have the reality and we have theory. And the theory is just as much shilling for imperialism in reality as I am shilling for imperialism in theory. What I am however not doing is abandoning the working class...the whole reason why we are here...for some sense of ideologically patting each others back.

Where our differences lie is not so much the fact that we don't oppose imperialism...but in the devide between theory and activism.

[aty]

It's good to see such a high level of discourse on here.

Of course, the PKK are now being armed by the West, and are guiding in American air strikes from the ground, and are talking about how they want to be part of the US coalition because they are a completely independent organisation and not effectively acting as a U.S. auxiliary at all. How could I have been so foolish as to not see it?

Devrim
No, they are not being armed from the west? They have absolutely not been given a single weapon from the west. And what if they had been given them? Why should they not take them? Or do you think they could break their own revolution just by taking arms when their areas of control are facing mass genocide by fascist butcherers?

You are so locked up in your own fantasies that you can not see how the world functions on the ground, in real life. Why should not socialists take any weapons we can get our hands on in a fight against fascism? Sure we can not rely on them but why should the YPG say "no please" if the US see a common enemy and decide to help out?
Have the US put some demands on the YPG that you know of? How is the US to be able to stop their revolution?

Drop the stupid fucking antiimperialist fucking nonsense. Get some fucking grip on reality and stop living in fucking lala-land.

Fuck you and the rest of the left. In Rojava there is a real revolution, you in the left have nothing, not a fucking shit.

Get of your high horse or I will shot you down. The left is truly dead, and I declare war on you last remaining zombies.

[PhoenixAsh]

infraction to aty for making threats

Even when done in jest or aux serieux or speaking metaphorically...not ok. That combined with excessive flaming in this and your other post.

[consuming negativity]

can we just go ahead and erase this entire thread and start over?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Uhh there are foreign volunteers with the YPG already, I'm sure they'd like some more. Or is your tough guy routine just for the internet?

[Sharia Lawn]

Yes, PhoenixAsh opposes imperialism, devrim, just in a different way than you do. His way entails accusing anybody who opposes the bombing campaign of the most powerful imperialist state on the planet as not caring about Kurdish women and supporting ISIS.

[Devrim]

can we just go ahead and erase this entire thread and start over?

Why? Do you think that the people throwing abuse at people will behave better if we start again? I don't.


No, they are not being armed from the west?

The Americans have been airdropping them guns. It's been all over the media.


And what if they had been given them? Why should they not take them?

Doesn't it make you think even for a tiny minute why the Americans are giving them guns, and much more importantly air-support? Do you think it is to support this non-existent revolution, you so fervently believe in, or might it be perhaps to further US imperial interests? Do you really believe that the flea is wagging the dog here?


Sure we can not rely on them but why should the YPG say "no please" if the US see a common enemy and decide to help out?

You make it sound like it is just a complete accident, and tat the PKK haven't been trying to sell themselves to the Americans for years.


Fuck you and the rest of the left. In Rojava there is a real revolution, you in the left have nothing, not a fucking shit.

No, there are two anti-working class gangs fighting a part of a massive war and being used as proxies for imperial powers. Workers are dying on both sides but not for their own class interests.

Devrim

[Devrim]

PhoenixAsh, just to be absolutely clear on what you are saying before we go on as I think you are not being very clear, could I ask two simple yes or no questions?

Do you call for or support the American bombing in support of the PKK against ISIS?

Do you call for all support the plans of EU states to arm the PKK?

and if so, what efforts have you made to support this?

Devrim

[PhoenixAsh]

PhoenixAsh, just to be absolutely clear on what you are saying before we go on as I think you are not being very clear, could I ask two simple yes or no questions?

Do you call for or support the American bombing in support of the PKK against ISIS?

Do you call for all support the plans of EU states to arm the PKK?

and if so, what efforts have you made to support this?

Devrim


I think I can best answer your question by reposting what I said in one of the first posts in the other thread before Izvestia and 870 started strawmanning the hell out of it:


I do NOT support the bombings. BUT currently NO faction fighting in that region is 1). NON imperialist 2). Having the best interest of the working class in mind 3). anything that actually improves the lives of people. 4). Actually representing anything that is in any way shape or form serving anything but the bourgeois

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2793587&postcount=124


So no. I don't support the bombings...but I acknowledge that as an act the Kurdish workers in Kobani benefit from them when they are under direct threat. Rather than focussing on the bombings themselves I think the focus should be on condemning the totallity of the US/EU imperialist aspirations (as well as those of the other players involved) which have helped create this situation in the first place.

You mention the PKK specifically. So I will address my opinion on the PKK. I stopped working with (people who alledged they representend) the PKK 17 years ago because I stopped seeing them as a revolutionary movement which I can support. Before that time I would have answered the question with yes.

The answer to your last question is slightly more complicated. Where in principle I don't support any imperialist faction getting involved there is a realistic necessity that the Kurdish workers get supplied with the means to defend themselves. The preference is a revolutionary support movement which could provide these...that one is unfortunately absent. The PKK/YPG is the closest thing. And unfortunately right now the imperialists are the only ones being in the position to arm the working class. I think that in these extraordinary circumstances urgency and necessity prevail above ideology and the immediate consequences are more pressing than the consequences on the long run.

You and I both know that the EU/US will never arm the working class unless the working class is controlled by a favorable faction to them. So the arms shipments either serve direct economic and geopolitical interests or serve Kurdish factions with loyalty ties to the US/EU.

And lets be totally honest here...while the PKK is on the terror watch list...that terror watchlist is not etched in stone. The PKK would absolutely LOVE support of the US/EU for an independent Kurdistan.

Now the question is a security culture question. Lets keep it at that I have helped organize meetings and protests and am involved in debating, informing and discussing the current situation and setting up a "fund raiser" for "refugees".

[PhoenixAsh]

Yes, PhoenixAsh opposes imperialism, devrim, just in a different way than you do. His way entails accusing anybody who opposes the bombing campaign of the most powerful imperialist state on the planet as not caring about Kurdish women and supporting ISIS.

lol :laugh:

And there I was thinking that you spend dozens of posts denying that you were in fact quantifying imperialism like I said....to once again completely prove the accusation ;)

(you know...because you were accusing others of doing that...and saying that that was wrong ;) )

[Sharia Lawn]

I think the more instructive question is whether PhoenixAsh opposes the US bombing campaign.

To PhoenixAsh: I've never said anything about "quantifying imperialism." I said that all imperialist intervention and imperialism should be opposed, from that of the weakest imperialist states to that of the most powerful. You are again trying to convert the simple principle of opposing all imperialism into a convoluted argument with questionable real-world applicability, just so you can have cover for your rejecting that principle.

[PhoenixAsh]

@Izvestia.

Lets do this 1 more time.

You started a debate with me over my assertion that a one sided analysis of imperialism, based on one country and based on one single activity, was faulty analysis and useless...my assertion that this was not a revolutionary conflict....and that 870's questionable post was defending ISIS.

I didn't start a debate with you. You started one with me. Do not forget that. You are not some victim here.

My contention with you was that you did in fact not oppose all imperialism but were mindlessly focussing on the US and reducing imperialism to these acts of bombings rather than what imperialism and the imperialist aspirations actually are....and in doing so were not only wrong but also dangerously misleading to the working class.

I refered to at one point in the debate the anti-war movement. Which was topic oriented as to why this is dangerous.

And since you have consistently focussed on the condemnation of the bombings as the focus point of your argument and have consistently focussed on not mentioning any other imperialist factions in the region....I told you you were paying lipservice to your theory.

And yes...I do indeed oppose YOUR application of that principle. Because you say you were doing just that...except your entire line of arguments brought against me contradicted that.

[Sharia Lawn]

Notice how PhoenixAsh doesn't answer the question of whether he opposes the US bombing campaign, and instead tries to bring up who started this or that debate, and whether he thinks people are focusing too much on the bombings.

It's a simple question to answer, so it's not difficult to guess why the evasions and provisos and qualifiers keep piling up in his posts here. "I oppose imperialism, BUT..."

[PhoenixAsh]

Notice how you shift from:


I think the more instructive question is whether PhoenixAsh opposes the US bombing campaign.

to


Notice how PhoenixAsh doesn't answer the question of whether he opposes US imperialism

In one post.

And then still expect me to have a valid debate with you...when this is basically what you do the entire time.

Izvestia, my arguments didn't change...at all. You just don't seem to be able to comperehend them. In order for you to sound intelligent you therefore need to strawman what I am saying into something I am not saying...so you can attack that and pretend to actually have a point.

[Sharia Lawn]

Notice how you shift from:



to



In one post.

And then still expect me to have a valid debate with you...when this is basically what you do the entire time.

Izvestia, my arguments didn't change...at all. You just don't seem to be able to comperehend them. In order for you to sound intelligent you therefore need to strawman what I am saying into something I am not saying...so you can attack that and pretend to actually have a point.

No, I'm not really interested in having a debate with you, as I think you're approach to discussion on this forum is the online equivalent of the show Punk'd. I am just giving a demonstration of how you are too embarrassed to give an answer to the question of whether you oppose the US bombings.

You've had two posts to give your answer, and have opted to bring up unrelated issues like about my debating style, my comprehension, people's focus on the bombing, and what not. Others could ask a dozen more times, and they still won't get a straight answer from you. What does this say about the capacity of certain posters in this thread to carry on a straight-forward debate?

It doesn't really matter, though, because your evasiveness actually is the answer. No, you don't oppose them, and you're afraid to say it because you know this is a forum of revolutionary leftists, who take as a given opposition to imperialism and imperialist military campaigns.

And let's not forget that we're still waiting for evidence, promised by you yesterday, for how I supposedly flamed you in the other thread. I can wait until I've turned to dust and not receive an answer to that question, but that won't stop you from making and repeating the accusation. Honest debate, that.

[PhoenixAsh]

No, I'm not really interested in having a debate with you, as I think you're approach to discussion on this forum is the online equivalent of the show Punk'd. I am just giving a demonstration of how you are too embarrassed to give an answer to the question of whether you oppose the US bombings.

You've had two posts to give your answer, and have opted to bring up unrelated issues like about my debating style, my comprehension, people's focus on the bombing, and what not. Others could ask a dozen more times, and they still won't get a straight answer from you. What does this say about the capacity of certain posters in this thread to carry on a straight-forward debate?

It doesn't really matter, though, because your evasiveness actually is the answer. No, you don't oppose them, and you're afraid to say it because you know this is a forum of revolutionary leftists, who take as a given opposition to imperialism and imperialist military campaigns.

And let's not forget that we're still waiting for evidence, promised by you yesterday, for how I supposedly flamed you in the other thread. I can wait until I've turned to dust and not receive an answer to that question, but that won't stop you from making and repeating the accusation. Honest debate, that.

Aha. So basically you admit to being a troll. What a surprise. Your intention was never to have a debate and the entire reason you attacked me in the first place was completely bogus and have continued to contradict yourself, lie, weasel and strawman yourself through our entire exchange as I have proven time and again.

What you did just there is not demonstrate my embarassement but further proof that what I have been saying (that you are dishonest) is actually true.

You eqaute opposition to the bombings as opposition to imperialism and I say that position is hopelessly naive, faulty analysis, downright wrong and dangerous and that opposition to imperialism should not be topic oriented and should not be based on reducing imperialism to acts. I have called the bombings irrelevant in the larger scheme of things, time and time again.

This can't be too hard to understand. There was and is no evasiveness ad this has been repeated to you ad nauseum.

Yet...like I argued over and over again. You are in fact not honest...you are interested in calling people out on the basis that you think your position is the only revolutionary position there is and that everybody who doesn't agree with you is therefore a liberal and are one of those people who will turn any debate into a black and white witchhunt on the basis of strawman and red herrings (which you did with IZ and Sasha) and need to have a yes or no answer to a question with which you actually mean something else. Like you exposed yourself doing here splendidly in just one post apart.

[Sharia Lawn]

Aha. So basically you admit to being a troll. What a surprise. Your intention was never to have a debate and the entire reason you attacked me in the first place was completely bogus and have continued to contradict yourself, lie, weasel and strawman yourself through our entire exchange as I have proven time and again.

What you did just there is not demonstrate my embarassement but further proof that what I have been saying (that you are dishonest) is actually true.

You eqaute opposition to the bombings as opposition to imperialism and I say that position is hopelessly naive, faulty analysis, downright wrong and dangerous and that opposition to imperialism should not be topic oriented and should not be based on reducing imperialism to acts. I have called the bombings irrelevant in the larger scheme of things, time and time again.

This can't be too hard to understand. There was and is no evasiveness ad this has been repeated to you ad nauseum.

Yet...like I argued over and over again. You are in fact not honest...you are interested in calling people out on the basis that you think your position is the only revolutionary position there is and that everybody who doesn't agree with you is therefore a liberal and are one of those people who will turn any debate into a black and white witchhunt on the basis of strawman and red herrings (which you did with IZ and Sasha) and need to have a yes or no answer to a question with which you actually mean something else. Like you exposed yourself doing here splendidly in just one post apart.

Yeah, because now, after I tried having a debate with you several times only to be met with constant evasion and flaming and a refusal to answer simple questions, I realize that trying to have a real discussion with you is the world's biggest exercise in futility. So I must be a troll. That's the logical conclusion to reach. It's on the same level as every other conclusion you've reached in our aborted attempts at discussion.

Everybody should take notice that, as I predicted, you still haven't provided evidence of my flaming, or stated clearly whether you oppose the US bombing campaign. You will never respond on point to either question, because it doesn't suit your agenda. Any person whose agenda depends on this level of evasion is up to no good.

[Devrim]

I do NOT support the bombings. BUT currently NO faction fighting in that region is 1). NON imperialist 2). Having the best interest of the working class in mind 3). anything that actually improves the lives of people. 4). Actually representing anything that is in any way shape or form serving anything but the bourgeois

...

So no. I don't support the bombings...but I acknowledge that as an act the Kurdish workers in Kobani benefit from them when they are under direct threat. Rather than focussing on the bombings themselves I think the focus should be on condemning the totallity of the US/EU imperialist aspirations (as well as those of the other players involved) which have helped create this situation in the first place.

You mention the PKK specifically. So I will address my opinion on the PKK. I stopped working with (people who alledged they representend) the PKK 17 years ago because I stopped seeing them as a revolutionary movement which I can support. Before that time I would have answered the question with yes.

The answer to your last question is slightly more complicated. Where in principle I don't support any imperialist faction getting involved there is a realistic necessity that the Kurdish workers get supplied with the means to defend themselves. The preference is a revolutionary support movement which could provide these...that one is unfortunately absent. The PKK/YPG is the closest thing. And unfortunately right now the imperialists are the only ones being in the position to arm the working class. I think that in these extraordinary circumstances urgency and necessity prevail above ideology and the immediate consequences are more pressing than the consequences on the long run.

You and I both know that the EU/US will never arm the working class unless the working class is controlled by a favorable faction to them. So the arms shipments either serve direct economic and geopolitical interests or serve Kurdish factions with loyalty ties to the US/EU.

And lets be totally honest here...while the PKK is on the terror watch list...that terror watchlist is not etched in stone. The PKK would absolutely LOVE support of the US/EU for an independent Kurdistan.

Now the question is a security culture question. Lets keep it at that I have helped organize meetings and protests and am involved in debating, informing and discussing the current situation and setting up a "fund raiser" for "refugees".

So what you seem to be saying here is despite understanding that all factions in the region are imperialist or proxies of the imperialists, and acknowledging that all factions serve the bourgeoisie, you are actively involved in meetings and protests in support of one of these factions.

The base of your support for this faction seems to be some idea that something has to be done for 'the Kurdish workers in Kobane', and the idea that the Da'esh is some sort of devil incarnated.

You seem to think that a communist position on these events is;


Is a huge cop out. It is basically shrugging your shoulders, shaking your fist and saying "Oh well..they are fucked. Bad imperialists." Basically you are giving up on parts of the working class to maintain ideological and theoretical purity. This is what, in my experience, alsmost always happens in LeftCom ideology and with theoretical and ideological purists. 870 (not a LeftCom) would be more than willing to sacrifice hundreds and more to satisfy his ideological purity and would shrug it off as "inevitable and unfortunate" much like you seem to be doing here. To their credit I know a lot of LeftComs who don't go that far and seem to be under the impression that ideology is nice...but there is such a thing as urgency and priorities.

The situation in Syria and Iraq is terrible now. The working class is divided into different ethnic and confessional groups and killing each other. This is not just happening in Kobane but across the whole of both countries.

Some people on the left have decided that one of these groups in particular needs support. Now, I don't think it takes much thinking to realise that in the long term pumping more weapons into, and dropping more bombs on, the region is going to lead to more war, more deaths, more massacres, and a more deeply divided working class.

You accuse 870 of being "more than willing to sacrifice hundreds and more to satisfy his ideological purity and would shrug it off...". Yet neither he, nor I, are sacrificing anybody here. Like the overwhelming majority of the worlds workers we are completely impotent and unable to do anything to prevent these massacres.

Other workers, including yourself, are drawn into backing one of the two factions. Many are backing the Da'esh. Others, like yourself are backing the PKK, who have over the past few months run a quite brilliant propaganda campaign in the West, aimed exactly at getting people like you to involve themselves in " help[int to] organize meetings and protests and involved in debating, informing and discussing the current situation and setting up a "fund raiser" for "refugees"".

Why do workers take up positions supporting sides in this war, in which as you admit there is nothing but 'imperialist factions' 'serving the bourgeoisie'?

Some of course support the Da'esh because they are draw to their radical interpretation of Islam. Religion, as Marx said, is at the heart of a heartless world. Others join the Da'esh because they see it as a organisation, which will defend Sunni Muslims, who in other parts of this wider war, are being massacred and ethnically cleanse by Shia Muslims in Iraq, and by the State in Syria.

Some too support the PKK based on ethnic nationalism, the historic yearning of an oppressed people who have suffered terrible oppression over decades to be 'free'. Others support them because they are taken in by the PKK's new radical presentation of itself into thinking that it has something to do with socialism.

And those who take sides in this war, in however small a way, from the extremes of volunteering to fight in the front line on either side, to demonstrating in favour of the Da'esh or the PKK, to those organising political meetings to support one side or the other, or even posting on the internet calling for the PKK to be removed from the lists of terrorist organisations, are the ones who are prepared to sacrifice hundreds and in the long term over the years, hundreds of thousands of lives, and play an active role in perpetuating it.

And opposed to this, the continuing barbarism over the coming decades that you support pumping more weapons into, you constantly oppose the working class of Kobane:


Now what your analysis about states doesn't say is that [B]the working class in Kobani is under direct threat of several factions and most pressingly and most notably the factions of Da'esh/ISIS and Turkey. And while we can lament the faith of ISIS members and fighters those are the aggressor faction for the working class in Kobani.

What working class in Kobane? According to the PKK, who have made contradictory statements on this issue either the entire civilian population has been evacuated, or there are a few hundred elderly people left there who are incapable of moving. The rest of the people fighting in the battle of Kobane are members of various militias. Now of course the vase majority of these people come from the working class and the peasantry. Some of them will be fresh faced volunteers. Others will be conscripts as both sides are forcing conscripts into their militias. Others, particularly on the PKK side will be veteran soldiers with years of experience.

If we except the PKK's statements that there are no, or virtually no civilians left in Kobane. The working class is clearly lined up on both sides of the lines in Kobane, and many of them will be scared young conscripts in the Da'esh gang facing scared young conscripts in the PKK gang. Is this the sort of situation where socialists support the arming of one part of the working class to kill another?


Saying that they should be protected and should not fall in the hands of a faction which is substantially more dangerous in the short term for them than any other faction currently on the field.... If only for the fact that ISIS has repeatedly stated and proven to be true to their word that they will kill every man, woman and child in Kobani once they have taken the city. ....is not taking sides with a bourgeois faction. Saying that directly entails that these people are given up as unfortunate collateral.

I'm extremely cynical about these things, and also about the PKK. It sound like you are too:


I stopped working with (people who alledged they representend) the PKK 17 years ago because I stopped seeing them as a revolutionary movement which I can support.

Even if we take them at their word though there are no civilians left in Kobane. After saying this, they later said that there were some old people who couldn't be moved. I'm cynical about this too. The people who stand to be massacred there if the Da'esh win are militia members. Now, I don't want to see any workers massacred, and as we have previously discussed of course the majority of these militia members will come from the working class and peasantry.

However, I don't think that it is me who is abandoning these people as 'unfortunate collateral'. I think that the PKK set up a situation when opportunity presented itself where these people were to used in a blood sacrifice to win public support across the world in order to get them US support.

Now, with the US dropping weapons to the PKK, and their air strikes driving back the Da'esh. It looks like it is going to be other working class people, who are going to be doing more of the dying. And this is what you are actively involved in organising for.

Of course, the end to the struggle at Kobane will not be the end to the wider struggle in the Middle East. Different gangs will continue to massacre members of different ethnic groups, and all the while they will find people in the West in particular on the left to support them. Those on the left have already supported sectarian and nationalist militias on all sides, including Syrian rebels many of whom are now fighting in the Da'esh.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Is a huge cop out. It is basically shrugging your shoulders, shaking your fist and saying "Oh well..they are fucked. Bad imperialists." Basically you are giving up on parts of the working class to maintain ideological and theoretical purity. This is what, in my experience, alsmost always happens in LeftCom ideology and with theoretical and ideological purists. 870 (not a LeftCom) would be more than willing to sacrifice hundreds and more to satisfy his ideological purity and would shrug it off as "inevitable and unfortunate" much like you seem to be doing here. To their credit I know a lot of LeftComs who don't go that far and seem to be under the impression that ideology is nice...but there is such a thing as urgency and priorities.

All left communists take the same position as I do on this that the PKK is a nationalist gang, and that there should be no support for any nationalist gang. You may know people who might have been influenced in someway by left communists who line up behind the PKK, but they are not left communists.

This position is defining for us. Everyone on the communist left would agree with me on this point.

Devrim

[PhoenixAsh]

So what you seem to be saying here is despite understanding that all factions in the region are imperialist or proxies of the imperialists, and acknowledging that all factions serve the bourgeoisie, you are actively involved in meetings and protests in support of one of these factions.


Aha I see. Aside from the fact that that is absolutely not what I actually said this entire passage plays entirely into what I have been saying about theoretical purists putting words in the mouths of other members in order to facilitate their accusatory arguments....and it makes your word that you take users at face value ring entirely hollow and entirely hypocritical.

The rest of your entire mail is more garbage.

either adress what I actually say or simply accept the fact that you are indeed importent because you make yourself impotent....and go sit in a corner.

[PhoenixAsh]

So what you seem to be saying here is despite understanding that all factions in the region are imperialist or proxies of the imperialists, and acknowledging that all factions serve the bourgeoisie, you are actively involved in meetings and protests in support of one of these factions.


Aha I see. Aside from the fact that that is absolutely not what I actually said this entire passage plays entirely into what I have been saying about theoretical purists putting words in the mouths of other members in order to facilitate their accusatory arguments....and it makes your word that you take users at face value ring entirely hollow and entirely hypocritical.

The rest of your entire mail is more garbage.

either adress what I actually say or simply accept the fact that you are indeed importent because you make yourself impotent....and go sit in a corner....or go wave your nice little LeftCom flags at the US embassy while you lament the decline of the working class.

[PhoenixAsh]

All left communists take the same position as I do on this that the PKK is a nationalist gang, and that there should be no support for any nationalist gang. You may know people who might have been influenced in someway by left communists who line up behind the PKK, but they are not left communists.

This position is defining for us. Everyone on the communist left would agree with me on this point.

Devrim

Except that like a broken Turkish state parrot you seem to continously talk about the PKK...you do this. Not me. You continously seem to interject PKK in every debate.

If you support the Kurdish working class...."Oh my PKK"
If you say some LeftComs seem to put their prioriteis right.... "Oh dear PKK"

Right now you sound like a complete tool for the Turkish propaganda machine.

Like when you parrot the Turkish governments line that there are no civilians in Kobani. Which they use to actually arrest refugees or people trying to smuggle aid into Kobani.

And you seem to not be able to distinguish between the Kurdish working class and the PKK or whatever other faction.


So based on your arguments the LeftCOm position can be sumarized like this:



Yes...the Kurdish working class in Kobani is under attack from ISIS.
Yes...ISIS is a consciously constructed imperialist tool
Yes...ISIS has theatened to kiill everybody in Kobani
Yes...the KUrdish working class has a right to defend themselves.

BUT if they actually do they are imperialists and nobody can help them or voice support for them because that makes them imperialist tools.

AND of they lose because the working class doesn't have the tools to defend themselves....then...OMG EVUL IMPERIALIZTZZZZ

AND workers can't do anything because they are powerless and impotent.


....


But you go right ahead and pretend that that position isn't exactly playing into the hands of the bourgeois.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Devrim - do you think the PYD is an independent movement affiliated with the PKK, or is it a subservient organization which follows the dictates of PKK military command? Or is it in on some kind of spectrum between these two?

Also, what do you make of claims by the PYD that other ethnic groups (mainly Assyrians, other Christians and Yazidis, who are sometimes classified as Kurds but sometimes aren't) are supporting their group now? I don't doubt that the PKK is basically built around Kurdish interests, but the PYD is at least claiming that other ethnic groups have united behind them.

[The Feral Underclass]

Statements by YPG general commander: http://kurdishquestion.com/kurdistan/west-kurdistan/ypg-general-commander-turkey-plans-failed.html

[Devrim]

Devrim - do you think the PYD is an independent movement affiliated with the PKK, or is it a subservient organization which follows the dictates of PKK military command? Or is it in on some kind of spectrum between these two?

There isn't an organisation called the PKK today, and there hasn't been for over a decade. PKK is a term used to cover all of the organisations of this current. Today they are actually called the KCK. The PYD is a part of the KCK. It's at core a military led organisation. It has a military command structure.


Also, what do you make of claims by the PYD that other ethnic groups (mainly Assyrians, other Christians and Yazidis, who are sometimes classified as Kurds but sometimes aren't) are supporting their group now? I don't doubt that the PKK is basically built around Kurdish interests, but the PYD is at least claiming that other ethnic groups have united behind them.

I'd imagine that some are, and some aren't. The PKK is certainly trying to position itself as the defender of all of the minorities of Kurdistan. It has had some success with some minorities. Of course it can't have any success with Turks, Arabs, or Persians, as these groups have bigger nationalist gangs called states to protect them.

Even so, other ethnic groups in Syrian Kurdistan are still maintaining their own ethnic/confessional organisations, and not integrating themselves into the PKK.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Except that like a broken Turkish state parrot you seem to continously talk about the PKK...you do this. Not me. You continously seem to interject PKK in every debate.

If you support the Kurdish working class...."Oh my PKK"
If you say some LeftComs seem to put their prioriteis right.... "Oh dear PKK"

Right now you sound like a complete tool for the Turkish propaganda machine.

Like when you parrot the Turkish governments line that there are no civilians in Kobani. Which they use to actually arrest refugees or people trying to smuggle aid into Kobani.

And you seem to not be able to distinguish between the Kurdish working class and the PKK or whatever other faction.

Firstly for people who don't personally know me on here, I'd just like to clarify that I am not an ethnic Turk. Nor am I a Turkish nationalist, and if people would care to go back on here they will find that I've consistently argued against the interests of the Turkish state, and indeed the state once began an investigation into me under article 301 of the criminal code for 'insulting Turkishness'.

Also if I am a " broken Turkish state parrot" then so is the entire communist left.

The PKK comes into debates on Revleft because due to its leftist trappings many people on the left are backing the PKK. When I am discussing this with people here, just as often as criticising the PKK, I am criticising the actions of the Turkish state, and occasionally even the Da'esh. It depends upon what people are arguing.

The idea that there is an independent working class in Syrian Kurdistan is plainly absurd.



So based on your arguments the LeftCOm position can be sumarized like this:

Yes...the Kurdish working class in Kobani is under attack from ISIS.
Yes...ISIS is a consciously constructed imperialist tool
Yes...ISIS has theatened to kiill everybody in Kobani
Yes...the KUrdish working class has a right to defend themselves.

BUT if they actually do they are imperialists and nobody can help them or voice support for them because that makes them imperialist tools.

AND of they lose because the working class doesn't have the tools to defend themselves....then...OMG EVUL IMPERIALIZTZZZZ

I think you've managed to completely misunderstand what is being said, congratulations.


AND workers can't do anything because they are powerless and impotent.

This is excepting reality. I do realise that reality doesn't sit well with many leftist activists. To be clear though what I mean is that the working class can do nothing for itself. The working class is not in a position to stop the war. It's that simple. Of course members of the working class are supporting different gangs. If you are a supporter of the PKK you can raise money for them, distribute propaganda, and call for your state to delist them as a prescribed organisation, and to give them military support. If you support the Da'esh you can collect money for them, distribute propaganda, or even go and fight for them. In the end supporting either nationalist gang will result in pumping more weapons into the region, and exacerbating ethnic/sectarian tensions. This is a recipe for continuing war and suffering and the further fragmentation of the class.

Devrim

[PhoenixAsh]

Firstly for people who don't personally know me on here, I'd just like to clarify that I am not an ethnic Turk. Nor am I a Turkish nationalist, and if people would care to go back on here they will find that I've consistently argued against the interests of the Turkish state, and indeed the state once began an investigation into me under article 301 of the criminal code for 'insulting Turkishness'.

Also if I am a " broken Turkish state parrot" then so is the entire communist left.

The PKK comes into debates on Revleft because due to its leftist trappings many people on the left are backing the PKK. When I am discussing this with people here, just as often as criticising the PKK, I am criticising the actions of the Turkish state, and occasionally even the Da'esh. It depends upon what people are arguing.

The idea that there is an independent working class in Syrian Kurdistan is plainly absurd.

Yet you continue to bring up the PKK even against people who already stated that they in no way support the PKK or its aspirations. I am not calling you an ethnic Turk and I have little interest in what your ethnic origins are... I am however calling you out for parotting the Turkish state line which is exactly the rethoric they use to suppress the Kurds.

The idea that there is an independent working class anywhere is plainly absurd. Yet the communist and anarchist positions start and end with the working class and in no way entails the doctrine that the working class is impotent to do anything. The entire basis for the revolutionary left is the fact that the working class is far from that and indeed has the power and ability to change the structure and overthrow class society.

In order to be able to do so the working class needs to be presented with correct and complete analysis which enables them to become class conscious.



I think you've managed to completely misunderstand what is being said, congratulations.

Right back at you since you completely ignored whatever I said in favor of your subjective trumpetting of PKK support.


This is excepting reality. I do realise that reality doesn't sit well with many leftist activists. To be clear though what I mean is that the working class can do nothing for itself. The working class is not in a position to stop the war. It's that simple. Of course members of the working class are supporting different gangs. If you are a supporter of the PKK you can raise money for them, distribute propaganda, and call for your state to delist them as a prescribed organisation, and to give them military support. If you support the Da'esh you can collect money for them, distribute propaganda, or even go and fight for them. In the end supporting either nationalist gang will result in pumping more weapons into the region, and exacerbating ethnic/sectarian tensions. This is a recipe for continuing war and suffering and the further fragmentation of the class

Yes, except that supporting nationalist gangs is something I never said and that you yourself dreamed up and then supposed I said in your reply.

You are so caught up into your "if this then that" mentality that you fail to properly address the actual arguments.

[Leo]

There isn't an organisation called the PKK today, and there hasn't been for over a decade. PKK is a term used to cover all of the organisations of this current. Today they are actually called the KCK. The PYD is a part of the KCK. It's at core a military led organisation. It has a military command structure.This is not actually true. There is an organization called the PKK which is a part, and kind of the ruling party of the KCK, which itself is something of a proto-state.

Anyway, I'll post a compilation of my posts from other threads on libcom so that their supporters can have an idea of what it is they are supporting exactly.

This is the part of the ICC article that I've written on the women's question:

Numerous accounts mention that many women members of the PKK were fleeing oppression by the family, especially the risk of forced marriage and honor killings in the traditional Kurdish territories and in Turkish society... These women were also victims of male violence in PKK camps and by none other than the great leader himself.

The source of such information is not the propagandists of the Turkish state but several founding members of the PKK itself who left the organization in disgust over the years. Mehmet Cahit Sener, one of the founders of the PKK who led an early and short-lived split called PKK – Vejin[1] wrote in 1991, a year before being killed on a joint operation of the Syrian intelligence and the PKK[2]: “Apo has forced dozens of our female comrades to immoral relations with him, defiled most and declared the ones who insisted on refusing to be people 'who haven't understood the party, who haven't understood us' and has heavily repressed them, and even order the murder of some claiming they are agents. Some of our female comrades who are in this situation are still under arrest and under torture, being forced to make confessions appropriate to the scenarios that they are agents (…) The relations between men and women within the party have turned into a harem in Apo's palace and many female comrades were treated as concubines by this individual.”[3]

Another founding leader of the PKK, Selim Curukkaya, who did actually manage to escape from Apo's grasp to Europe a few years later, wrote in his memoirs of countless incidents supporting Sener's general statements, further elaborating the repressive measures towards women in particular and in regards to the relations between men and women in general. According to Curukkaya's memoirs sexual relations were banned for the entire membership, and those caught were severely punished – tortured, imprisoned and even declared traitors in some cases which led to their executions – male and female alike. One striking example in Curukkaya's memoirs was the imprisonment of a couple of young guerrillas for no reason other than practicing ‘adultery of the eye’, in other words looking at each other. In contrast, the great leader of the PKK had the right to any women in the organization, and the rest of the leadership were rewarded if they proved obedient and useful. Other founding leaders who have left since have admitted that these testimonies were indeed correct.

Not that Ocalan himself hasn't been as open as he could've been in his own speeches, texts, books, declarations and so on and so forth over the years. In a book written by him in 1992 titled Cozumleme, Talimat ve Perspektifler (Analyses, Orders and Perspectives), he stated: “These girls mentioned. I don't know, I have relations with thousands of them. I don't care how anyone understands it. If I've gotten close with some of them, how should this have been? (…) On these subjects, they leave aside all the real measurements and find someone and gossip, say 'this was attempted to be done to me here' or 'this was done to me there'! These shameless women both want to give too much and then develop such things. Some of the people mentioned. Good grace! They say 'we need it so, it would be very good' and then this gossip is developed (…) I'm saying it openly again. This is the sort of warrior I am. I love girls a lot, I value them a lot. I love all of them. I try to turn every girl into a lover, in an unbelievable level, to the point of passion. I try to shape them from their physique to their soul, to their thoughts. I see it in myself to fulfill this task. I define myself openly. If you find me dangerous, don't get close!” [4]

In a pamphlet he wrote more recently, Ocalan called Toplumsal Cinsiyetciligin Ozgurlestirilmesi (The Liberation of Social Sexism), he says: “In the ranks of the PKK, a true love is possible by a heroism proving itself with success. And what can we call the many female-male runaways? Frankly, we can call them the lapsed Kurdish identity proving itself (…) Besides myself and our martyred comrades have heroically been workers for the road to love. If those who supposedly felt like experiencing love haven't understood the value of such efforts, they are either blind, or evil, or scum or traitors. What else can be expected of us for love? You won't run to any successes in your revolutionary duties, and then you'll say you feel like having a relationship! It is clear that this is a shameless approach (…) Even birds make their nests in places untouched by foreigners. Can love build homes in lands and hearts occupied till the throat? Any force you'll take shelter in will do who knows what to the lovers. My experience has showed this: Living with a woman of the order isn't possible without betraying revolutionary duties.”[5]

The talk of freedom of women advocated by the PKK today is rather a cruel irony.

[1] Short lived not due to political reasons, but because the PKK murdered almost all of their leading members
[2] Hundreds of PKK members are said to have celebrated the "traitor's" death, firing guns in the air upon learning that he was murdered
[3]. http://vejin.wordpress.com/mehmet-cahit-sener-2/
[4]http://www.onergurcan.org/Mete.../METE/aponun%20ayetleri.htm
[5] http://www.awazaciya.com/.../toplumsalcinsiyetc.../index.htm

On the situation of women in the movement today:

As for today. Being a Kurd living in Turkey, I get mixed with their circles every now and then and aside from hearing many stories have met several victims as well. In many of these cases, as it is with most rape cases, the victims can't even come out. In cases when they do, it is most often them who are blamed rather than the rapists. If you don't want to take my word for it then you don't have to of course.

All they have done will come out though, sooner or later it will come out.

Their "feminist" (they actually call it jinology or "womanology") propoganda isn't aimed at changing any of this. The family is a quite powerful institution in Kurdistan and forces many women into impossible situations where they in the end are forced to flee their homes from family violence or even honor killings. The PKK's propoganda is about them posing themselves as an alternative to the oppression of the family, so that they're the address for all these women who run away. They do it because they need more fighters, however the actual patriarchal familty structure aids them. They have no reason to change the patriarchal family establishment though because if it hadn't been there, those women wouldn't have to run off to the mountains in the first place. Hence their membership too is marked by such values and they have no need or reason to challange that either because, if nothing else, why risk losing the men? All they need, and all they do is to talk vaguely about women's liberation. It creates the desired image to the sufficient degree and as a side effect excites Western leftists.

Having sufficiently established the patriarchal history of the PKK and the true aims of its propoganda related to the gender issue, lets move on to other points.

Salih Muslim, the leader of the PYD called for the expulsion of the Arabs from Syrian Kurdistan ("One day those Arabs who have been brought to the Kurdish areas will have to be expelled, if it continues the same way, there will be war between Kurds and Arabs." http://peaceinkurdistancampaign.com/2013/11/29/kurdish-news-weekly-briefing-3-29-november-2013/). This is not an isolated incident for the Kurdish nationalist movement. I will add to this the words of Bese Hozat, the co-chairwoman of the KCK (the main roof organization of the PKK and other groups around it) and Ocalan himself attacking the Armenian and Greek "lobbies" (http://t24.com.tr/yazarlar/aris-nalci/ermeni-lobisi-ve-paralel-devlet,8274). It was a shock for their leftist supporters since people are generally used to hearing such statements from the Turkish nationalists. Of course it is known that there was a significant Kurdish participation in the genocide against the Armenians and other non-muslim minorities in 1915 so it is not very surprising. Also is the fact that the PKK has traditionally had a position against the Zaza people, considering them Kurdish and condemning them whenever they describe themselves as a separate ethic group to the Kurds (In the interview here, for instance, Ocalan is saying that "Gladio" developed Zazaism against the PKK http://haber.sol.org.tr/devlet-ve-siyaset/ocalan-benim-yapacaklarim-bitti-haberi-44956).

There is also the fact that in September 2014, the YPG (the army of Syrian Kurdistan) signed a treaty with several Syrian opposition groups, including Jihadist groups and formed the Euphrates Volcano. (http://www.ozgur-gundem.com/index.php?haberID=118383&haberBaslik=YPG%20ve%20%C3%96SO%20%27ortak%20eylem %20merkezi%27%20kurdu&action=haber_detay&module=nuce) Among these groups are the Al-Tawhid Brigade which has ties with the Muslim Brotherhood, Liwa Thuwwar al-Raqqa which is a splinter group from the Al Nusra Front (that is the Syrian Al Qaeda), Liwa al-Jihad fi Sabeel Allah which translates as Jihad in the Path of God Brigade, the Jarablus Brigade which has an Ottoman style logo including a Turkish flag. Earlier they had signed a peace treaty with the Al Nusra Front itself (http://www.diyarbakirhaber.gen.tr/guncel/el-nu-ra-ve-ypg-bari-anla-ma-i-yapti-h2399.html). What the PYD is doing in Kobane in particular and in the Syrian Kurdistan specifically is defending the area it has taken control of, not defending any principles. They are quite willing to work with Islamists and Jihadists who'd be massacring minorities and heretics and degrading women like the ISIS is doing now if they came to power. So the war in Syria is between radical Islamists and a coalition of Kurdish nationalists and other radical Islamists. Not that supporting the Kurdish nationalists would be alright if they weren't allied with other Jihadists against the ISIS - rather that this example demonstrates the true political character of the Kurdish nationalists. As for their fans in Turkey and abroad, this turns supporting the "Rojava revolution" into supporting the lesser of two radical Islamist evils.

And what exactly is the "Rojava revolution"? In reality, it is not a revolution in any way - the PYD didn't even overthrow anyone to take power. Rather it was left to them as the largest Kurdish party in the region as Assad's army withdrew from Syrian Kurdistan. The constitution of Syrian Kurdistan "guarantees the right to property and private property" (point 41), aims for "the strengthening of national soveirgnity". In fact for all the rhetoric of being against nation-states, a quite traditional nation state has been organized in Western Kurdistan, with its army (the YPG), police (Asayis), ministeries and bureaucracy. It's true that the constitution isn't a parliamentary democracy. To be honest, with the immense cult of personality around Ocalan, de-facto power in the hands of the PYD and the attempt to have a show of "direct democratic" processes, the "democratic autonomy" practiced in Western Kurdistan seems most similar to Qaddafi's Libya to me. And the new PYD regime, for all its talk of "democracy" and "democratic modernity" is in no way tolerant of dissent: in 2013, the YPG opened fire to a group of demonstrators in the city of Amude, killing several and injuring many (http://www.kurdistanaktuel.com/Arsiv/haberler/kuerdistan/12495-amude-katliami-10-oelue.html).

All these are of course rather typical of national liberation movements. Here we see a political organization which came to power in agreement with the Syrian state, which has a deeply patriarchal nature and history, has voiced dangerous slogans towards other ethnic groups and has allied with Islamists and Jihadists, which organized itself as a state with its own army, police, ministeries, which defends private property and is not in any meaningful way opposed to capitalism, which is dominated by a cult of personality and which is quite brutal against any sort of dissent, going as far as shooting demonstrators. This may be enough for leftists who fantasize about guns and revolutions by decree, however it is nothing but another nationalist armed gang participating in a disastorous war devestating the lives of all the workers in Syria, regardless of whether they are Kurdish or Arabic, Muslim or Christian, Sunni or Shia.

[Devrim]

This is not actually true. There is an organization called the PKK which is a part, and kind of the ruling party of the KCK, which itself is something of a proto-state.

Other sources disagree:


The changing names

From April 2, 2002 to November 11, 2003, the same day as the European Union updated its list of terrorists, the organization declared that it terminated "Kurdistan Workers Party" and with the same organisational structure formed the Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language): Kürdistan Demokratik ve Özgürlük Kongresi (KADEK). The name change to KADEK was claimed as a move towards peaceful politics and co-operation with a wider range of ideologies, but it was pointed that this change was aimed to protect itself from the legal implications of being listed as a terrorist organization. Turkey claimed at the time that KADEK and PKK were identical. Later nations updated their status towards KADEK to be identical to their status towards PKK. From November 11, 2003 to April 4, 2005, the KADEK changed its name and operated under the banner of KGK (KONGRA-GEL). In 2004, the armed wing of PKK, HPG (People's Forces of Defence) announced an end to the unilateral truce they had sustained since the time of Öcalan's capture.
Later in 2004, US Treasury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_the_Treasury) \amended its regulations to include all the aliases and offshoots of the PKK in its sanctions list maintained by OFAC (Office of Foreign Assets Control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Foreign_Assets_Control)). The list aims at blocking terrorist property. The organisations currently listed under PKK aliases include KADEK (Congress for Freedom and Democracy in Kurdistan), KONGRA-GEL, HSK, KHK and PKK.


Devrim

[Leo]

No they don't - your quote is right but also from the same source: "In 2005 the original name of the organisation PKK was restored." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party#1999.E2.80.932012) They even have an official website (www.pkkonline.com/).

I know my shit when it comes to the PKK.

[Devrim]

No they don't - your quote is right but also from the same source: "In 2005 the original name of the organisation PKK was restored."

My mistake, I must have missed that.

Devrim

[PhoenixAsh]

During the 90's the character of the PKK in Holland changed substantially.

During the 90's the old Marxists were replaced by the new generation of, what can best be described, as ultra nationalists without any revolutionary agenda beyond a seperate state. Some even could be labelled as third positionists and ethnic chauvinists.

We broke any form of cooperation and contact with the PKK in the late 90's ('96 I think) because of this shift. And it only lasted that long because of existing contacts that were still valuable. But even before that the Marxists of the organization warned that the PKK in its subsidiary countries was far more revolutionary than the PKK in Kurdistan and many who came back from visits in those last years were increasingly desillusioned by the PKK and warned us for the new generation.

Sexism in the party was not really discussed. But what Leo describes in detail is exactly what was noticeable in the field.

[Dodo]

Kurds in Europe tend to become Iranic ancestry-paganism loving nationalists...the ones in Turkey are mostly of revolutionary traditions and left rhetoric.
THe rest are uneducated and develop a counter-mechanism against Turkish nationalism eventually.

What matters imo is the intellectuals and leadership which mostly holds the post-marxist doctrines of radical democracy, confederation, communalism, radical ecology, gender equality and direct democracy.
And this always trickles-down to masses.

[bricolage]

Kurds in Europe tend to become Iranic ancestry-paganism loving nationalists...the ones in Turkey are mostly of revolutionary traditions and left rhetoric.
There's a lot of leftist Kurds in London.