Using the phrase "uncle tom".

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Although the national uproar over the murder of Michael Brown by Pig Darren Wilson has subsided (unfortunately), you'll still find various videos expressing opinions on the matter (because everyone has one).

Then I found this:

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That's well-to-do African American pastor Jonathan Gentry, who basically goes off on the 'moral decay' of working class black people for a little over six minutes. He even goes so far to mock that famous Civil Rights anthem "We Shall Overcome".

It's actually pretty disgusting to watch. And the very first thing that popped into my head after he was finished was "Fuck, what an Uncle Tom".

But that got me thinking: is it even appropriate for someone as lilly-white as me to even use that term? Obviously it's got some rather nasty racial connotations, but I honestly could not think of another phrase I could use that would apply to this man who, in the space of over six minutes, completely condescends and mocks all of the other black people who aren't as rich and successful as he is, and basically defending the very people who murdered Michael Brown.

Thoughts?

[Loony Le Fist]

Gentry provides no rational or factual based arguments. Nothing to see here. It's just too bad the rather dim apologists for swine are easily convinced otherwise.

[adipocere]

I don't think it's inapproperate. The only people who could pretend to be offended by the use of the term are Uncle Tom's. With that said however, it should not become like a thing you call random people you don't like. It's a strong characterization, if it's used casually to the point where it becomes just a watered down insult whites use to talk about blacks they don't like in general, then obviously it will have morphed into a slur. I think in this context you're spot on really.

[The Modern Prometheus]

The term Uncle Tom is not only used by black people. the Irish republicans used to call the Irish who collaborated with the British before and during the war of independence uncle toms. So even though i'm not black at all i still use that term and no black people i know get offended by it. Granted if you called a black person that you could very well get a well deserved smack in the face. Unless your the moron on this video who is a uncle tom.

Ironically Uncle Toms Cabin was one of the first books Lenin read as a child.

[Palmares]

Well, of course noone owns language, but it also doesn't mean we can't contextualise about our respectful usage.

Lemme give you an example I experienced many years ago (perhaps I was more "PC" then though!), I remember remarking to a white acquaintance about a film depicting Australians Aboriginals. I actually said it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Still shit, but could have been worse. Then said white person went on a rant about the film being filled with "uncle toms". Perhaps that's true. Though, I also think they were being even more PC than me! But I also thought, is this white person, telling me (I'm brown and proud, haha) about white supremacy? And are they using the word... uncle tom?

Certainly, though, there are much worse words to use!

Apparently Eminem has used the word "n*gga". You think he uses the word "uncle tom"? Hell, he is the complete opposite, like an oreo with the cream on the outside!

Reminds me of another story from a friend. He saw some African immigrants wearing Eminem brand clothing (the fakes!), and he remarked, "It's like some black guys trying to be like a white guy who is trying to be black."

:laugh:

[#FF0000]

yeah i'm gonna be honest it seems like a really bad idea for a white dude to call a black dude an uncle tom.

[Hatshepsut]

Well, of course no one owns language...
Except the word wars are precisely about ownership and control of the language used in public. And you can get killed using the wrong word about the wrong group in the wrong place. I don't even go there anymore.

Harriet Beecher Stowe isn't needed to discuss Jonathan Gentry anyway.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

yeah i'm gonna be honest it seems like a really bad idea for a white dude to call a black dude an uncle tom.

If nothing else I feel like these would definitely be fighting words, so it better be worth it.

[Futility Personified]

For the white equivalent, how about 'collaborating barry' or 'second cousin fred'?

As ever, context is king. I used the term a thread or two ago, to mean someone who seems to derive satisfaction from being exploited and seems to think other people do not really appreciate the 'opportunity' they are being provided. Would I say it to someone of colour? Probably not, as the connotations would be quite unpleasant and would infer that i'd be a racist.

This thread has the potential to go one way or another down the 'PC debate'. The idea of being sensitive when using language has bounced around these hallowed halls of coding so many times and let's be honest, it has a lot of merit. There are so many other ways of articulating the same point in English, why not choose them if it seems inappropriate?

[PhoenixAsh]

The question becomes...

Do you think he should have a different opinion because he is black?

[PC LOAD LETTER]

I'd agree with PhoenixAsh and bad ideas actualized etcetc.

It comes across like you're saying he should have a certain opinion because of his skin color, which would be racist, even if it's unintentional.

Personally I'd just stick with the catch-all of "jackass" or "asshole" as they have no racial connotations that I'm aware of

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

i don't really know the term very well (i think its pretty US-specific?) but as far as my impressions of the term go i definitely dont think it's an appropriate term for a white person to use.

[Atsumari]

People like him and Thomas Sowell makes racists think that all the racist shit they did was not racist unlike this guy who can make things feel a bit more awkward.
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If you want to see some extreme "Uncle Toms" then listen to a lot of the shit that many Asian Americans say. It is as if many of us are happy for being a tool for white supremacy.

[The Modern Prometheus]

The question becomes...

Do you think he should have a different opinion because he is black?

Hmm no i don't. I have called white people that before (we called a cop from here who was working with the RCMP a fucking uncle Tom and a turncoat) and on one occasion a black person who was being a lackey for the company i was working for. Know one there liked him and the black guys i worked with hated him as much as me and just laughed their heads off when i flipped out at the fucker and called him that and worse.

When i am in a argument with a total prick all the PC bullshit goes out the window :tongue_smilie:

[John Nada]

What about comprador (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprador)?

[Palmares]

The question becomes...

Do you think he should have a different opinion because he is black?

In a sense, I agree, like how a neo-nazi may call a white person who... fraternizes with non-white folk as "race traitors".

However, institutional oppression like white supremacy, of course, exist. And such concepts as "uncle toms" point to a spectrum beyond simply race, especially class. There are many people who are marginalised in some ways, whereas greatly privileged in others. For example, rich women like Sarah Palin amongst others are surely not shining beacons of feminism.

So in the end, on one part of the spectrum, he should have a different opinion.

Can't blame the house n*gga for hatin' on the field n*gga...

But unfortunately, due to privileges in other parts of the spectrum, their marginalisation is largely forgotten, if not deliberately not remembered.

[PhoenixAsh]

The problem that when we approach it that way we are approaching it that way from the perspective of the race...the gender...the sexual preference of the person whose opinion we are evaluating.

An excellent example was during the miss America elections (the bastion of gender equality...I know) where the question was asked "As a woman what do you think about {football player who punched his girlfriend in an elevator}". So wait....whhy should HER opinion be representative of the concept of women? And why would and should there be a difference how you approach that subject from a male/female perspective? The conceptual framing reduces that person to their gender etc.

The thought that race, gender, sexual preference etc. should mold our thoughts, ideas and opinions in a certain way and that a person should have a certain opinion or display a certain set of behaviours because of any of these factors is imo problematic. It doesn't approach the person as a person...but as a representative of a certain group based on these factors.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Lemme give you an example I experienced many years ago (perhaps I was more "PC" then though!), I remember remarking to a white acquaintance about a film depicting Australians Aboriginals. I actually said it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Still shit, but could have been worse. Then said white person went on a rant about the film being filled with "uncle toms". Perhaps that's true. Though, I also think they were being even more PC than me! But I also thought, is this white person, telling me (I'm brown and proud, haha) about white supremacy? And are they using the word... uncle tom?
I wish I remember the precise details (most my university education seems to be leaving me already) but there's some film theory about the depiction of minorities in the film industry that uses terms like 'uncle tom' to differentiate the terrible stereotypical characters that were (and in many ways still are) common in early cinema but it's more of a critique of bad writing and production in a white-dominated industry if anything. I think using the term on genuine people has different connotations to me at least.

[Palmares]

The problem that when we approach it that way we are approaching it that way from the perspective of the race...the gender...the sexual preference of the person whose opinion we are evaluating.

An excellent example was during the miss America elections (the bastion of gender equality...I know) where the question was asked "As a woman what do you think about {football player who punched his girlfriend in an elevator}". So wait....whhy should HER opinion be representative of the concept of women? And why would and should there be a difference how you approach that subject from a male/female perspective? The conceptual framing reduces that person to their gender etc.

The thought that race, gender, sexual preference etc. should mold our thoughts, ideas and opinions in a certain way and that a person should have a certain opinion or display a certain set of behaviours because of any of these factors is imo problematic. It doesn't approach the person as a person...but as a representative of a certain group based on these factors.

Being purely reductionist is indeed problematic, but these social constructs still exist.

Let me reverse your example, here in Australia, the Prime Minister Tony Abbott is in charge of women's affairs.


The new prime minister himself has taken primary responsibility for women's issues, which under Labor were handled by the families minister, Jenny Macklin.
"Women's policies and programs" as well as Indigenous affairs, deregulation, national security and relations with state governments are all specified responsibilities of Tony Abbott, who has appointed West Australian senator Michaelia Cash as minister assisting the prime minister for women.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/18/tony-abbott-womens-minister-portfolio


For me, I see this whole thing as more of the expectation of solidarity from those experiencing similar realities.

As an example of what I mean, listen to the skit/sample at the end (after 3:00min) of this song:

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Skit/sample is cut off at the end, if you don't wanna have to search for the missing lines in the following song, let me tell you it's simply "Let's run, together."

EDIT: I've been away from this board so long, getting my head around the coding. Someone fix the youtube coding for me?