DDR T-shirt

[RockRoll]

Hi hello,

I am dutch and I have a question.
I don't label my self as left or right. But I lean to the left.
I am anti-nazi but not pro-communist.

I was in Berlin last month and I bought a DDR t-shirt.

I asked several Germans if it was okay to wear a shirt like that. And all said it was ok, just a retro-thing, it's funny etc.
So i thought, I might as well wear it, and I wore it at night in Berlin on saturday.
I tried to find nightlife, somebody send me to warshawer straBe, but their some people started pointing at my shirt and swear at me. but also one or two people that hugged and cheered to me on the street.

The guys that cheered had long or longish hair, the guys that sweared had pretty short or shortish hair. So I assumed at least i don't send out a message that i don't support.

I took the subway back, as I didn't like it there. In the subway a girl got mad at me. She said I was stupid for wearing that, and if I even knew what I was wearing. She also said, black people avoided me and secretly looked angry to me behind my back. I asked why, she said, my shirt was racist. when she said that , i was shocked, I immediately wore my shirt inside out.

But later I asked many Germans, and nobody said, it is anything racist. And I cannot imagine it being racist actually.

Can any of you people shine some light on this.
Is it bad or good to wear DDR shirt, does it bring out a ideological message?
I mean many people wear che guevara t-shirts without trying to put out a message. Isn't it a bit the same?

[RedWorker]

Well, the DDR was an authoritarian state which abused people's basic rights. It also had very little to do with communism. At best it makes people start taking such things humorously instead of thinking seriously about politics, at worst it promotes Stalinism and offends people.

[DOOM]

I always thought this was some hipster-fuck-the-establishment-thing, like those marx-engels-lenin-stalin shirts (which are damn cool).

[Dagoth Ur]

Some dumb loser on a train tells you that the DDR was racist and you flipped your shirt in response? Wow.

[motion denied]

Some dumb loser on a train tells you that the DDR was racist and you flipped your shirt in response? Wow.

If I'm in a foreign country wearing a t-shirt and some person tells me that's racist, I'd do the same.

Who wants to come off as a racist? Even more so that who knows if German chauvinism might use DDR's symbolism, I wouldn't know.

[Dagoth Ur]

Come off as a racist? You're racist or you aren't there is no in-between. The mere idea that any racist would use DDR imagery makes zero fucking percent sense.

[Buzzard]

Come off as a racist? You're racist or you aren't there is no in-between. The mere idea that any racist would use DDR imagery makes zero fucking percent sense.
The swastika at one time had nothing to do with fascism either, if nobody knows the context in which it's racist, then it's up in the air.

[Hrafn]

Come off as a racist? You're racist or you aren't there is no in-between. The mere idea that any racist would use DDR imagery makes zero fucking percent sense.

Yeah, it makes as little sense as racists using Soviet imagery.

Oh wait.

[consuming negativity]

I'm still trying to figure out what Dance Dance Revolution has to do with race or Germany. :ohmy:

[RedWorker]

I'm still trying to figure out what Dance Dance Revolution has to do with race or Germany. :ohmy:

DDR = Deutsche Demokratische Republik (German Democratic Republic, GDR).

[Hrafn]

DDR = Deutsche Demokratische Republik (German Democratic Republic, GDR).

It's a joke.

[Red Economist]

I took the subway back, as I didn't like it there. In the subway a girl got mad at me. She said I was stupid for wearing that, and if I even knew what I was wearing. She also said, black people avoided me and secretly looked angry to me behind my back. I asked why, she said, my shirt was racist. when she said that , i was shocked, I immediately wore my shirt inside out.

Good for you. ;) I don't have a clue how the DDR symbol could be taken as racist (unless she was confusing it with the Swastika- but that sounds too stupid to be true), but it matters regardless.


Is it bad or good to wear DDR shirt, does it bring out a ideological message?
I mean many people wear che guevara t-shirts without trying to put out a message. Isn't it a bit the same?

Yeah, it is best to assume that when you're wearing communist symbolism it is sending out a political message. I think it's more a question of how it's received than what the intention is but it's up to you to decide whether you think it's a good or a bad thing. you could construe it as a free speech issue as it's generally considered to be 'ok' to wear it only as long as you don't mean it which is somewhat bizarre eccentricity of counter-cultural liberalism. but generally I wouldn't wear communist symbolism even though I sympathize with them for the sake of not having to have rows with people. If I were more outwardly communist- I'd talk to people about it but I still wouldn't wear it. the context matters if you actually want people to listen and respect your opinion even if they disagree. it should never feel like an imposition or provocation which is the danger of wearing it on a t-shirt.

I read an article a few weeks ago (my apologies as I can't find the link) where kids on Indonesia or Mayalisa we wearing the Nazi Swastika because they thought it was a symbol of rebellious anti-colonial nationalism and didn't realize what the Nazi's had done in the Holocaust. Something gets lost in translation and the journalist said the moment he explained what the Nazi's did, the people wearing the t-shirt did exactly the same as you and turned them inside out, so it happens.

The Che T-shirt is a classic example where far left symbolism has been adopted by counter-culture to the point it has lost all of it's original political meaning. The simple truth is the image sells and there is money to be made out of Che T-shirts regardless as to whether people should wear Che. Che's popularity is mainly down to what people project on to him (and he does make a great t-shirt)- but it's not necessarily down to an understanding his politics. If Che was on a college campus today, he himself would have worn a Stalin (or possibly Mao) T-shirt- and that's hardcore even by revleft standards.
It's acceptable to wear a Che T-shirt amongst left-leaning students on a college campus because universities were centres of the New Left (and are still arguably more left-wing than almost anywhere else in society), but it's a death wish if you wear it around heavily armed anti-castro cubans in Florida.

[Sasha]

For example, I have the Reichsadler (1918 style) on my back as a tattoo - minus any insignia. My Grandmother who is German sees nothing wrong with this, any more than my mother having the cornflower tattoo. But others have tried to tell me that if I go to Germany and people see it that they may think I'm nationalist.

i would also first punch your nose in and only then maybe bother to find out if you are actually a nazi... and i'm not even german so yeah, better keep that shit covered in europe... why the fuck would you get that tattooed (unless your a 100 years old and you got it pre-rise of the nazi party)?

[Sasha]

Some dumb loser on a train tells you that the DDR was racist and you flipped your shirt in response? Wow.

i have that actually quite often, if people wear nazi symbolism at my work (i'm a bouncer in a big concerthall) i make first an assessment whether its likely they really stand behind it or whether its worth educating them, for example if its at a skinhead OI gig show i just kick them out but in the more neo-folk they often really didnt think it through. So often when i confront someone over their death in june totenkopf shirt or something like that and explain to them why its very offensive towards jewish people like me they often either flip it inside out or binn it there and then and buy a merch shirt from the band thats playing.
though sometimes not and they shrug it off an then they can go an be edgy outside in the cold without a refund :lol:

so while i wouldnt say a DDR shirt is racist, if i was still a naive kid on holiday in germany and someone who got tortured by the statsi or something confronted me i can certainly understand flipping it inside out.

[Lord Testicles]

i would also first punch your nose in and only then maybe bother to find out if you are actually a nazi...



though sometimes not and they shrug it off an then they can go an be edgy outside in the cold without a refund :lol:


I wonder how people acquired this image of bouncers being knuckle-dragging pricks... :rolleyes:

[Sasha]

I wonder how people acquired this image of bouncers being knuckle-dragging pricks... :rolleyes:

Nah, in my 6 year as a bouncer I only punches someone once, and that was in self defense. When it comes to stupid nazis when I'm on a night out (or if I went looking them for that matter) I have less patience .

And to the other guy, I assumed you ment the stylised bird the nazis used minus the swastika. The old more eloborate one I would ask first I guess.
But yeah, take nationalist imagery and expect getting shit, i don't flash my amersterdam crest tattoo in other cities nor my anti-fascist tattoos when im in a place fash might be either unless I'm prepared to come to blows over them

[PhoenixAsh]

Dude, sorry...

Perhaps you should be more careful about how you name your tattoo. You have a tattoo of the Imperial Eagle...perhaps. The Reichadler is associated with the 1933-1945 Reichsadler which is neo-nazi symbolism in Europe and if you wear that....I don't give a flying fuck about your deep personal meaning because your deep personal meaning is neo-nazi symbolism. After 1945 the Reichsadler was restyled and renamed to Bundesadler...which also has some far right nationalist symbolism and would still make you instantly suspect here.

To give you an idea. If you google "Reichsadler" you will get these results:

https://www.google.nl/search?q=Bundesadler&biw=1600&bih=775&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=1iIXVMmhBobAPK7FgOgD&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=Reichsadler


If you google it with Kaiser Adler you will get:
https://www.google.nl/search?q=Bundesadler&biw=1600&bih=775&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=1iIXVMmhBobAPK7FgOgD&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=Kaiser+Adler

If you google Bundesadler:
https://www.google.nl/search?q=Bundesadler&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=775&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=HSUXVP-eLY6CPY-kgIAE&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ


This distinction is really, really important to make here...for obvious reasons which I assume you "get".

[Sasha]

You can wear what the fuck you want and ger tattooed what the fuck you want, and other people are allowed to think what they want about you, think you are suspect, an idiot or even so offensive you should be confronted over it.
And yes, I expect someone with a confederate flag to get punched too.

And if I go to Japan I understand not being allowed in the swimingpool or bath house because i have tattoos. That's the consequence of me getting my tattoos, I don't complain, I respect that my tattoos mean something else there than they do here. You can have your imperail eagle but you cant complain if you would show it off in Europe and people give you shit for it. Because having that tattoo here, esp if you would also have the german flag means bad shit here.

And what are your deeply personal reasons to get deeply reactionary symbolism anyway? Other than blud and bodem and heimat and shit?
I'm also not going to get the Israeli flag tattood because I happen to be Jewish, I would get maybe the golem, or the star of David with the red triangle, or tikkun olam or something.

[Hrafn]

Word, Sasha. Personally I have several tattoos with an ancient Nordic theme (none that are in direct use by Nazis), and I made them knowing that others can't be at fault for interpreting me as a nationalist.

[Lord Testicles]

Nah, in my 6 year as a bouncer I only punches someone once, and that was in self defense. When it comes to stupid nazis when I'm on a night out (or if I went looking them for that matter) I have less patience .

I have no problem with a person violently confronting fascists but if you single someone out for being a fascist based on nothing other then a piece of clothing or a tattoo then I think you need to lift your arms up because your knuckles are scraping on the floor.


Word, Sasha. Personally I have several tattoos with an ancient Nordic theme (none that are in direct use by Nazis), and I made them knowing that others can't be at fault for interpreting me as a nationalist.

If someone sucker punches you for it though lets not pretend that the person who does that is anything more than an impulsive thug and an arsehole.

[Hrafn]

No platform for fascists, Skinz. That's the principle in Sweden. If you wear a t-shirt with Nazi symbolism, expect to get thrown out off our streets if you're dumb enough to do it. It is not thuggish - it is the only valid strategy of preventing the normalization of the far-right.

[Lord Testicles]

No platform for fascists, Skinz. That's the principle in Sweden.

I'm not saying any different.



If you wear a t-shirt with Nazi symbolism, expect to get thrown out off our streets if you're dumb enough to do it. It is not thuggish - it is the only valid strategy of preventing the normalization of the far-right.

Emphasis on the "dumb enough to do it" part. There is a difference between confronting organised fascists and fascists attempting to organise and beating up some idiot teenager who thought that t-shirt with the Celtic cross on it looks cool or some clueless tit who though buying from Thor Steinar is a good idea.

If you have trouble differentiating the two: The former is actually fighting fascism and the latter is using anti-fascism to be a macho thug.

[Hrafn]

I do not agree. :|

[John Nada]

Word, Sasha. Personally I have several tattoos with an ancient Nordic theme (none that are in direct use by Nazis), and I made them knowing that others can't be at fault for interpreting me as a nationalist.

In the US, Nordic style tattoos are basically only used by white criminals and skinheads. Not accusing you of either, but you probably would want to cover them if you visit the US. An example of the type of fascists that gets them is:
After all, even today there are people who have had their fair share of mistreatment at the hands of the Christian devout; myself included, yet I would never dream of demanding they stop wearing the cross that is dear to them - despite the fact that to me it represents the oppression and destruction of MY religion. All I ask is that they have the same tolerance toward me that I have shown them - yet if I wore even one symbol from my religion I'd be 'suspect' so I am forced to keep the symbols of my own faith in the shadows to 'show respect' for others.Odin save you! Only skinheads get that tattoo. Not surprising, saying shit like this:
I've had not shortage of times being fearful around young black menhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2787416&postcount=35

[Rugged Collectivist]

The German eagle, while not fascist, is still a nationalist/monarchist symbol and I'd probably be suspicious of someone who had one. I don't think you should be punched though.

I probably wouldn't wear a DDR shirt myself, but if I did and someone called me a racist I'd disregard them because that doesn't make any sense at all.

[consuming negativity]

In the US, Nordic style tattoos are basically only used by white criminals and skinheads. Not accusing you of either, but you probably would want to cover them if you visit the US. An example of the type of fascists that gets them is: Odin save you! Only skinheads get that tattoo. Not surprising, saying shit like this: http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2787416&postcount=35

I know a black guy who got a Celtic Cross on his arm. He says he didn't know what it was at the time, but found it sort of funny when I asked him about it. That was years ago, but at the time, there was no criminal record or anything else. He seemed like a nice enough person and I believed his story.

Not, you know, to say anything more than I am in the context of a discussion I'm not following closely, but I thought it would be an amusing anecdote to share. I don't have any tattoos. Never liked anything or held a belief strongly enough to warrant permanently plastering it on my body.

[RedWorker]

DDR symbolism may also be nationalist.

[Hrafn]

In the US, Nordic style tattoos are basically only used by white criminals and skinheads. Not accusing you of either, but you probably would want to cover them if you visit the US. An example of the type of fascists that gets them is: Odin save you! Only skinheads get that tattoo. Not surprising, saying shit like this: http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2787416&postcount=35

Yupp. Hence, I've designed mine so that they're very easy to cover up.

[RedHal]

damn tourists, why don't you read up a bit of history of the country you are visiting before you go?

[Rugged Collectivist]

damn tourists, why don't you read up a bit of history of the country you are visiting before you go?
What is this in response to?