Ableist words

[RedWorker]

"Retarded", as far as I understand, is a term used medically for someone with a low intelligence. The definition is larger, but it basically means a person with a intelligence lower than a threshold.

But this is the same for the word "moron". The word "moron", some years ago, was also used medically like "retarded" is, and denoted a person with a very low intelligence. Even "idiot" used to be used medically.

But the question is this. While some people on here will not tolerate the word "retard", they will tolerate the word "moron". This seems inconsistent. Even if none of these words were used medically, we'd still be using it as an insult based on implying someone has lower intelligence, i.e. practically what "retarded" means - and therefore it would still be ableist. Even only some years ago, "retarded" medically referred exclusively to a low intelligence.

The only possible other explanation would be that "idiot" and "moron" came to have other meanings - such as someone we don't like. But we could argue that "retarded" has also acquired these other meanings.

Your thoughts on this issue?

Some years ago, it frustrated me when "retarded" was used as an insult, but not when "idiot" was used. But I realized this is inconsistent. Now I mostly don't care when I see it used, but I still don't use the word.

[The Feral Underclass]

I have some friends who object to the world 'lame.'

[The Intransigent Faction]

Thanks for this thread. If we're judging solely based on personal experience, I've always found the "r word" used in especially aggressive contexts (even physically aggressive), whereas "moron" and "idiot" are used more jokingly. "Lame" came to mind as well. I know enough not to generalize on the basis of personal experience, though.

Context is undeniably important. What that means, though, is that whatever these words might have meant in decades past, this is 2014. If one word is used commonly today in a broader sense, but another is used specifically as a derogatory term for those with disabilities, then I think it's understandable that many people will at least reflexively be more "bothered" by the latter. There's a kind of linguistic status-quo bias here. Understand that when judging whether a word is offensive, most people aren't going to even google the etymology...they're just going to judge from experience in a modern context.

I'd be interested to know (not that I expect anyone here could answer) how "lame" etc. evolved in such a way that they aren't considered offensive to (or even by) the group(s) they referred to in a medical context.

[Quail]

I think the context is important. Retard is a word which is still used as a slur against people with disabilities, whereas idiot and moron have lost those connotations as far as I'm aware.

[Devrim]

Perhaps, it would be better not to throw insults at people at all.

Devrim

[Lord Testicles]

I have no time for people who are offended by sounds. People who insist on the term "differently abled" are the worst.

[Redistribute the Rep]

I say we popularize RevLeft insults to use against people we simply don't like, to replace ableist words. For example:

Liberal
Petty bourgeois
Cappie

Just to name a few.

[Art Vandelay]

I have no time for people who are offended by sounds. People who insist on the term "differently abled" are the worst.

Interesting. I'd say from personal experience that the vast majority of people who take offense to said 'sounds,' are individuals who suffer from developmental disabilities. Care to explain why they should not feel the way they do (hurt, ostracized, etc) when they hear terms like 'retarded'?

[Lord Testicles]

Interesting. I'd say from personal experience that the vast majority of people who take offense to said 'sounds,' are individuals who suffer from developmental disabilities. Care to explain why they should not feel the way they do (hurt, ostracized, etc) when they hear terms like 'retarded'?

I didn't say they shouldn't, I imagine that in most contexts when words like "retarded" are used it is meant to cause offence. The map is not the territory, just because you've stopped the use of a word doesn't mean that you've made society more inclusive or that you have stopped people from being ostracised or hurt.

[Art Vandelay]

I didn't say they shouldn't,
Fair enough, but what you did say was:


I have no time for people who are offended by sounds.

From which we can take that you have 'no time' for folks with developmental disabilities, seeing as the vast majority of them are offended by such 'sounds.'

And:


People who insist on the term "differently abled" are the worst.

Which quite frankly sounds like calling folks with developmental disabilities, their families and friends, their staff, etc..the worst, due to the fact they demand the usage of inclusive and nondiscriminatory terminology.

It just so happens I don't have much time for people who are ignorant and insensitive, and if it wasn't for this being an issue that hits close to home, probably wouldn't of even bothered responding to such nonsense.


I imagine that in most contexts when words like "retarded" are used it is meant to cause offence. The map is not the territory however and just because you've stopped the use of a word doesn't mean that you've made society more inclusive or that you haven't stopped people from being ostracised or hurt.

Can you point me to where anyone has claimed otherwise? I don't even know what the point of the bolded part is. Yeah we probably won't ever stop people from getting hurt and certainly won't stop them from being ostracized until we fundamentally reorganize society... yeah, so, and what? How does this relate to the fact that terms like 'retarded' shouldn't be thrown around as if they had no consequences when falling on the ears of folks with developmental disabilities, or their family members, or the people who work with them. It's offensive, unecessary and needs to be cut out.

I can tell you one thing for sure, the individual who I work with, absolutely hates the term. And if he heard someone use it, or hear someone say that 'people who insist on the term differently disabled are the worst,' he'd be using much more colorful language than I currently am, to get his point across to you.

[Lord Testicles]

Fair enough, but what you did say was:


From which we can take that you have 'no time' for folks with developmental disabilities, seeing as the vast majority of them are offended by such 'sounds.'


You could interpret it like that, but that's not what I typed.


Which quite frankly sounds like calling folks with developmental disabilities, their families and friends, their staff, etc..the worst, due to the fact they demand the usage of inclusive and nondiscriminatory terminology.

The term "differently abled" when used to describe a "disabled" person isn't being inclusive or non-discriminatory, it's simply a rejection of reality. The description of "the worst" was clearly hyperbole and if that wasn't clear then it should be now.


It just so happens I don't have much time for people who are ignorant and insensitive, and if it wasn't for this being an issue that hits close to home, probably wouldn't of even bothered responding to such nonsense.

If you view me as ignorant and insensitive then I guess you should stop trying to interact with me.


Can you point me to where anyone has claimed otherwise? I don't even know what the point of the bolded part is. Yeah we probably won't ever stop people from getting hurt and certainly won't stop them from being ostracized until we fundamentally reorganize society... yeah, so, and what?

I don't know. What point are you trying to make? I'm under the impression that you are just upset at the idea that I don't have time for people who are so easily offended by words...


How does this relate to the fact that terms like 'retarded' shouldn't be thrown around as if they had no consequences when falling on the ears of folks with developmental disabilities, or their family members, or the people who work with them. It's offensive, unecessary and needs to be cut out.

I think that's the point (to be offensive). How do you intend to get people to "cut it out"?


I can tell you one thing for sure, the individual who I work with, absolutely hates the term. And if he heard someone use it, or hear someone say that 'people who insist on the term differently disabled are the worst,' he'd be using much more colorful language than I currently am, to get his point across to you.

I literally couldn't care less.

[RedWorker]

I have no time for people who are offended by sounds. People who insist on the term "differently abled" are the worst.

So it's ok to call people "niggers"?

[Lord Testicles]

So it's ok to call people "niggers"?

I never said that it was okay to call people retarded so I don't see how you would arrive at the conclusion that it's okay to call people niggers.

If someone is going to call a person a [insert any offensive word or racial epithet here] then they intend to cause offence anyway and if you could cast a spell which magically made it impossible to call anyone a [insert any offensive word or racial epithet here] then people would just use another word to cause offence.

[Lily Briscoe]

'Retard' is a word that I associate pretty much exclusively with teenagers/children, but 'retarded' (used in the same sense as 'lame', more often to describe something than someone) is really common among people in my age group for whatever reason, and I'm sure I say it occasionally. I'm not interested in making some 'political' defense of it, though, and I really don't think this is a 'political' issue at all. If someone objects to it, don't use it around them... it seems simple enough.

[Zukunftsmusik]

'Retard' is a word that I associate pretty much exclusively with teenagers/children

Hey, just cause you feel superior to teenagers and children, there's no reason to use such ableist language!

[Art Vandelay]

You could interpret it like that, but that's not what I typed.

What you typed is there and anyone can see. If they don't see the problem with what you've said, I'd probably guess they don't quite understand the intricacies of this issue. If you'd like to suggest you meant something other than what you said, then please elaborate.


The term "differently abled" when used to describe a "disabled" person isn't being inclusive or non-discriminatory, it's simply a rejection of reality.

As someone who has a family history of working in this field and who also currently works as a support worker, I can honestly say Ive never come across anyone who uses that term. The term used is developmentally disabled and claiming that term constitutes a 'rejection of reality' is ridiculous. The only person to introduce the term 'differently abled' into the conversation is yourself.


The description of "the worst" was clearly hyperbole and if that wasn't clear then it should be now.

Fair enough, but it hardly takes away from the substance of what you said.


I don't know. What point are you trying to make? I'm under the impression that you are just upset at the idea that I don't have time for people who are so easily offended by words...

Which is a pretty despicable position, when taken into the context of the discussion. You made a claim, and have yet again repeated it. What I pointed out, was that in this case, the people you 'don't have time for' are folks with developmental disabilities. Seeing as they tend to be the people 'so easily offended' by words or 'sounds' (as you so eloquently put it). If that is indeed the case, then just own up to it.

I can't help but wonder if you'd say that you have 'no time' for women who are offended by the word '*****,' or black people offended by the term 'nigger.'


I think that's the point (to be offensive). How do you intend to get people to "cut it out"?

Clearly we can't get people to 'cut it out' until we reorganize society upon different lines. That, however, doesn't mean we can't continually call out such nonsense for what it is, and stand up against it. Such actions, and I have indeed seen first hand, have the effect of empowering these individuals and making them feel better about themselves.

I'd also suggest that people who feel this isn't a 'political issue' are absolutely unaware of the ways in which communities have been transformed by groups of individuals who suffer from developmental disabilities collectively fighting for their rights.


I literally couldn't care less.

Why am I not surprised...it fits in quite well with what you've said in this thread and quite frankly says a lot about you as an individual.

[Lord Testicles]

What you typed is there and anyone can see. If they don't see the problem with what you've said, I'd probably guess they don't quite understand the intricacies of this issue. If you'd like to suggest you meant something other than what you said, then please elaborate.

I meant exactly what I said, it's you that thinks it means something other than what it says. I said:


I have no time for people who are offended by sounds.

You took that to mean:


[I have] no time' for folks with developmental disabilities

It doesn't take Columbo to notice the difference between these two statements.


As someone who has a family history of working in this field and who also currently works as a support worker, I can honestly say Ive never come across anyone who uses that term. The term used is developmentally disabled and claiming that term constitutes a 'rejection of reality' is ridiculous. The only person to introduce the term 'differently abled' into the conversation is yourself.

I never claimed the term "developmentally disabled" is a rejection of reality, you really need to pay attention if you're going to go to the effort of replying.

I made an offhand remark about people who insist on the term "differently abled," a term I have heard people use. I wasn't even having a conversation when I posted it so let's not pretend that this is some grand point that we've been dwelling on.


What I pointed out, was that in this case, the people you 'don't have time for' are folks with developmental disabilities.

No, some of the people I don't have time for might happen to have developmental disabilities but this idea that I don't have time for people with developmental disabilities or their struggles full stop is entirely your fabrication.


Seeing as they tend to be the people 'so easily offended' by words or 'sounds' (as you so eloquently put it).

According to you.


I can't help but wonder if you'd say that you have 'no time' for women who are offended by the word '*****,' or black people offended by the term 'nigger.'

If their primary concern is the use of offensive language and not the structures of institutional racism and sexism then no, I wouldn't have time for them.


Clearly we can't get people to 'cut it out' until we reorganize society upon different lines.

The use of offensive language and the desire to cause offence will dissipate once we reorganize society? How exactly?


That, however, doesn't mean we can't continually call out such nonsense for what it is, and stand up against it.

What do you think of the use of the word "retard" in film or literature?


I'd also suggest that people who feel this isn't a 'political issue' are absolutely unaware of the ways in which communities have been transformed by groups of individuals who suffer from developmental disabilities collectively fighting for their rights.

Maybe we are unaware but no thanks to you, who would apparently rather try and drum up an argument about nothing than tell us about these collective fights and transformed communities.


Why am I not surprised...it fits in quite well with what you've said in this thread and quite frankly says a lot about you as an individual.

Yes, I am a bad person because I couldn't give a flying fuck about some individual you work with and his use of colourful language to get a point across. :crying:

[Slippers]

Not really up to arguing with people in here but I am glad to see this thread and to see that this is a discussion that is happening.

I try to do my best to not use oppressive language and I'd appreciate being called out on it if I do.

I understand that it's not something others are going to focus on but I think those who call themselves revolutionary socialists/communists ought to at least seriously consider the impact their words can have, especially to the disabled.

[Lily Briscoe]

I think those who call themselves revolutionary socialists/communists ought to at least seriously consider the impact their words can have, especially to the disabled.
To be completely honest, I really don't come into contact with 'the disabled' (in the sense that I think people in this thread mean it) very often at all. I have a friend with a kid sister who is 'developmentally disabled' and I've met her a few times when she's been visiting. I also used to work at a lab and some guy who was like that used to come in to get his blood drawn periodically and he developed crushes on everybody and would hang around afterwards and try to put the moves on people and actually had to be escorted out of the building a couple times. But those are the only people I've encountered like that in recent memory, so unsurprisingly, tailoring my speech and behavior to be accommodating and inclusive of people with developmental disabilities has never actually had much practical relevance, and I think a lot of people are in the same boat. Anyway, I don't really have a broader point here, I'm just trying to put it in perspective.

[Slippers]

To be completely honest, I really don't come into contact with 'the disabled' (in the sense that I think people in this thread mean it) very often at all. I have a friend with a kid sister who is 'developmentally disabled' and I've met her a few times when she's been visiting. I also used to work at a lab and some guy who was like that used to come in to get his blood drawn periodically and he developed crushes on everybody and would hang around afterwards and try to put the moves on people and actually had to be escorted out of the building a couple times. But those are the only people I've encountered like that in recent memory, so unsurprisingly, tailoring my speech and behavior to be accommodating and inclusive of people with developmental disabilities has never actually had much practical relevance, and I think a lot of people are in the same boat.

Anyway, I don't really have a broader point here, I'm just trying to put it in perspective.

well you're speaking to a disabled person right now and someone who has known many effected by various disabilities.

And people like me are not so rare as people think; and in any case, I did mention that I know that it's not going to be a thing most people do but that doesn't mean that I don't think it's important and that I won't advocate for it. Especially as it's something so few people seem to care about and a thing that even "radicals" will dismiss or worse.

Whether it is really practical to you is hardly important. Generally I think that when somebody calls themselves a revolutionary leftist that ought to implicitly mean that they support all oppressed peoples and that absolutely includes the disabled.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I knew the historical meanings of the words and didn't consider it too bad, but since I've seen stuff (esp. online) explaining how to many people these words still hold those connotations etc I decided it was simply better to cut them out of my vocabulary, seems like the most sensible option to me.

'retard' is really hideous though, you hear people say it with such vehemence even though its meaning is clear, widely known etc. I can't stand it when people I know use the word.

[Lily Briscoe]

well you're speaking to a disabled person right now and someone who has known many effected by various disabilities. I'm pretty sure that virtually everyone knows people "effected by various disabilities". But I think the sort of disabilities that this thread pertains to are far more specific, I.e. Those associated with "mental retardation", or at least that is more what I was talking about.


And people like me are not so rare as people think; and in any case, I did mention that I know that it's not going to be a thing most people do but that doesn't mean that I don't think it's important and that I won't advocate for it. Especially as it's something so few people seem to care about and a thing that even "radicals" will dismiss or worse.

Whether it is really practical to you is hardly important. Generally I think that when somebody calls themselves a revolutionary leftist that ought to implicitly mean that they support all oppressed peoples and that absolutely includes the disabled.I'm not meaning to sound rude (just saying that because it's sometimes hard to judge tone on the internet), but I really don't view disabled people as being an 'oppressed people' on account of their disabilities, in the same sense that I don't see people with cancer or diabetes as being oppressed on account of their medical condition. Not everything that makes your life more difficult constitutes oppression. Obviously being inclusive is good, but I just don't really see the political dimension to any of this.

[Slippers]

Again; you're talking to somebody with a "developmental disability". To whom the 'r word' has been used.

And wow, I implore you to educate yourself on disabilities and ableism and the harm the normalization of ableist behaviours and mindsets can cause. Really; I implore you.

I'd explain things better but I'm getting frustrated right now and I don't need to be going off in here.

[Devrim]

Again; you're talking to somebody with a "developmental disability". To whom the 'r word' has been used.

And wow, I implore you to educate yourself on disabilities and ableism and the harm the normalization of ableist behaviours and mindsets can cause. Really; I implore you.

I think that this discussion is missing what in my opinion should be the real point. Of course people who have 'developmental disabilities' can be offended by the 'term' retard, and of course anybody with any sensitivity would try not to use words that upset people.

However, I think the real point is that socialists shouldn't be using insults of any type on a message board like this. If we want to create a society based upon the mass participation of the working class, we don't start by insulting people. We start by encouraging as wide a discussion within the working class as possible. However wrong you feel that somebody's ideas may be, you shouldn't call them a 'moron' or a 'retsard' or an 'idiot'.

Come on people, we are meant to be socialists, we should be better than that.

Devrim

Disclosure: I did once swear at and abuse somebody on this site. I don't think it was acceptable behaviour, and I still feel it was a mistake.

[JahLemon]

'retard' is really hideous though, you hear people say it with such vehemence even though its meaning is clear, widely known etc. I can't stand it when people I know use the word.
yeah, I cringe when I hear it.

[Lily Briscoe]

However wrong you feel that somebody's ideas may be, you shouldn't call them a 'moron' or a 'retsard' or an 'idiot'.

Come on people, we are meant to be socialists, we should be better than that.

Devrim


Is anyone in this thread defending hurling insults at people, though? It just seems like a really random sermon, tbh.

[kuriousoranj]

I really don't view disabled people as being an 'oppressed people'

From institutionalisation to extermination, I can assure you, people with disabilities suffer plenty from oppression.

[Sinister Intents]

From institutionalisation to extermination, I can assure you, people with disabilities suffer plenty from oppression.

Yeah! I've seen it in so many places and I've experienced a horrible amount of prejudice in high school for being autistic, I was professionally diagnosed with Aspergers. I hate hearing the word retard, it makes me think of abuse every time and it triggers me pretty bad, same with being called pussy but that's sexist. The word lame is pretty bad but it doesn't affect me as negatively. I hate being treated like I'm five or slow

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I just don't really see the political dimension to any of this.
There's a political dimension to everything.

[LiaSofia]

I don't and won't ever use the words 'retard' or 'gay' in a pejorative context. I think there is a difference between those words and other insults. 'Idiot' is no longer used to describe developmental disabilities so the only people who associate that word with disability are those who have looked into the etymology in some detail. There are people who are medically classed as retarded and people who identify as gay, so using those terms negatively isn't the greatest idea if you want to promote greater inclusivity.


I say we popularize RevLeft insults to use against people we simply don't like, to replace ableist words. For example:

Liberal
Petty bourgeois
Cappie

Just to name a few.

My favourite Revleft insult is 'Randroid'. I hadn't heard that term before I joined. It's the best thing ever. 'OMG stop being such a Randroid!'

[Ocean Seal]

almost all insults have reactionary origins

bastard--without a father is essentially a slur against single mothers and people who were historically poor, its also a bastion of patriarchy

Yeah I remember something about Trotsky saying that hopefully we would move beyond using insulting language towards other people.

[LiaSofia]

I think it's unrealistic to expect people to never insult anyone. It's a nice idea but I can't see it happening anytime soon.

[Lily Briscoe]

There's a political dimension to everything.

Eh. I mean, I get that if somebody you're doing political work with is throwing around the word "retard", then that's something they need to stop doing, and it's certainly completely reasonable to confront them about it. And yes, it is obviously best to avoid using words that could deeply offend people in a political context. I don't really see a lot of value in discussing whether words like 'idiot' and 'lame' and 'retarded' are "ableist" in the abstract, though; I just really don't see the point (or the 'political dimension') to it, no.

I also think this business of trying to be as inoffensive and agreeable and accommodating as possible can be taken too far (and I feel like this is a trend in a lot of, especially academic-based, Western liberal/leftist politics at the moment, 'trigger warnings' being one example). I know that sounds kind of like a right-wing talking point, but that's not where I'm coming from. I feel like there's tons of pressure placed on working class people, women in particular (and frequently also immigrants and ethnic minorities), by the bosses and the middle class to constantly police their own language and behavior and to be demure and polite and agreeable and inoffensive all the time*. And while context is obviously important, I think there can actually be something 'liberating' (for lack of a better word) in refusing that. On a personal level, there are loads of things about me that are deeply offensive and 'upsetting' to a lot of people, and at this point in my life, I am really uninterested in modifying myself and my behavior in order to accommodate everyone's sensibilities. Maybe that just goes to show that I'm a 'dilettante', but whatever; if being a communist means being some ascetic Christian missionary, I'm honestly not interested.

Sorry this kind of turned into a tangent, but it's stuff that's been in the back of my mind for awhile (and the impulse to apologize just now is probably an - albeit completely tiny - example of what I'm talking about in the sentence with the asterisk tacked onto the end).

[Devrim]

Is anyone in this thread defending hurling insults at people, though? It just seems like a really random sermon, tbh.

Yes, it is.


I feel like there's tons of pressure placed on working class people, women in particular (and frequently also immigrants and ethnic minorities), by the bosses and the middle class to constantly police their own language and behavior and to be demure and polite and agreeable and inoffensive all the time*.

I agree with much of this. Basically working class people do not on the whole like middle class people telling them how to speak. It really winds loads of people up.

Devrim

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I know that sounds kind of like a right-wing talking point, but that's not where I'm coming from.
Right-wingers are always like "I'm being persecuted by PC liberals if I can't call people niggers, gooks, fags, wetbacks, etc." They feel oppressed if they can't demean people. I should hope as a socialist that wouldn't be where you're coming from.


Maybe that just goes to show that I'm a 'dilettante', but whatever; if being a communist means being some ascetic Christian missionary, I'm honestly not interested.
What? I really don't see what being an ascetic has to do with not calling people "retards".

1.
a person who dedicates his or her life to a pursuit of contemplative ideals and practices extreme self-denial or self-mortification for religious reasons.
2.
a person who leads an austerely simple life, especially one who abstains from the normal pleasures of life or denies himself or herself material satisfaction.

[Quail]

I don't think expecting revolutionary socialists not to use slurs against marginalised people is really asking all that much. If you genuinely believed that there is nothing wrong with having a disability or being gay or whatever, then I don't think you'd want to use slurs as insults if you even gave a second of thought to the connotations of those words.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I think it's misguided to think that people with disabilities are not oppressed in our society. They are prevented from even joining the work force in most cases, which in turn prevents them from taking part in social interactions and exercising individual autonomy. Obviously some people are incapable of joining the work force but many who are capable are left to rot in the care of their parents and siblings for their entire lives, I can't even imagine how frustrating that would be.

As if that weren't enough, you can look at cases where they actually do get to participate in the work force and even then it's not fair. It was like a year ago where that report came out about Salvation Army thrift stores (and other stores like them) paying disabled staff members $1, $2, etc. an hour due to the way legislation regarding employment of disbled people is implemented here in the US. Disabled people face real oppression from a society that either outright excludes them, and when it doesn't, disrespects and exploits them in ways that makes other marginalized groups look almost privileged.

[Left Voice]

In my experience, everybody who uses works such as 'retarded' know perfectly well that is it ableist language. They might reach out to such defences as 'they don't mean it that way' or accuse people of being too 'PC', the that very defensive response is demonstrative. They know they shouldn't be using those kinds of discriminate terms. They might say such words without giving it much thought and might not intend to be ableist from the outset, but people have to take responsibility for what they say, lest they reinforce such discriminations.

As a side note, to suggest that words are mere 'sounds' with no broader societal connotations is at best ignorant and naive, and at worst extremely troubling.

[Lord Testicles]

I agree with much of this. Basically working class people do not on the whole like middle class people telling them how to speak. It really winds loads of people up.

Devrim

I think you could simplify that to "people do not on the whole like other people telling them how to speak." and it would still be true.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Yeah! I've seen it in so many places and I've experienced a horrible amount of prejudice in high school for being autistic, I was professionally diagnosed with Aspergers. I hate hearing the word retard, it makes me think of abuse every time and it triggers me pretty bad, same with being called pussy but that's sexist. The word lame is pretty bad but it doesn't affect me as negatively. I hate being treated like I'm five or slow

I don't know if it came across in my other post here because I tried not to make it personal...but yeah. This. When I was much younger, I faced severe prejudice as well from kids who understood, at least, that I was "different". By that I mean serious physical incidents, but that was definitely their favourite abusive term, as well.

I've known autistic kids all across that spectrum, and I've seen some of what other developmentally disabled people I've known have faced. Anyone who denies that abusive language plays a role in their struggles through a society that treats them with indignity is part of the problem.

Sure, workers don't like people telling them how to talk. Nor should they. It's something people who look can realize for themselves. The kind of populism that shies away from offending workers who might cling to reactionary behaviour or ideas won't get communists anywhere.

[Dagoth Ur]

I think people who get so bent out of shape over conventional insults have some level of emotional disturbance or are otherwise incapable of handling normal human interaction (oh no I used normal as though there is way to account for averages). Inb4 YOU DON'T KNOW OPPRESSION OR PREJUDICE LIKE I DO.

Insults are a part-and-parcel of growing up. Call it reactionary behavior, call it whatever, but adolescents are mean and insulting people makes you feel better about yourself when your confidence is being demolished by hormones and social pressure. I'm sure you guys had a bad time in highschool and some "popular" kids made fun of you, growing up is getting over it.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I think people who get so bent out of shape over conventional insults have some level of emotional disturbance or are otherwise incapable of handling normal human interaction (oh no I used normal as though there is way to account for averages). Inb4 YOU DON'T KNOW OPPRESSION OR PREJUDICE LIKE I DO.

Insults are a part-and-parcel of growing up. Call it reactionary behavior, call it whatever, but adolescents are mean and insulting people makes you feel better about yourself when your confidence is being demolished by hormones and social pressure. I'm sure you guys had a bad time in highschool and some "popular" kids made fun of you, growing up is getting over it.

Wow. In case you hadn't noticed, "normal human interaction" (a very abstract notion, by the way) is littered with problems and things some people might argue ought to be (and can be) changed.

Not only did you trivialize and mock discrimination against disabled people, you also managed to include a little bit of patriarchal "toughen up and be a man"/"boys will be boys" talk that conflates maturity with being somehow unaffected by abuse or "accepting the way of the world" rather than questioning or challenging it. There's no straight line inevitably connecting hormonal changes in adolescence to physical abuse or discriminatory language. It exists where it's excused and systematically perpetuated by people such as yourself.

[Lily Briscoe]

Right-wingers are always like "I'm being persecuted by PC liberals if I can't call people niggers, gooks, fags, wetbacks, etc." They feel oppressed if they can't demean people. I should hope as a socialist that wouldn't be where you're coming from.


What? I really don't see what being an ascetic has to do with not calling people "retards".

I feel like I've been pretty clear that I'm not defending calling people 'retards'.

[Sinister Intents]

I think people who get so bent out of shape over conventional insults have some level of emotional disturbance or are otherwise incapable of handling normal human interaction (oh no I used normal as though there is way to account for averages). Inb4 YOU DON'T KNOW OPPRESSION OR PREJUDICE LIKE I DO.

Insults are a part-and-parcel of growing up. Call it reactionary behavior, call it whatever, but adolescents are mean and insulting people makes you feel better about yourself when your confidence is being demolished by hormones and social pressure. I'm sure you guys had a bad time in highschool and some "popular" kids made fun of you, growing up is getting over it.

Never would've expected you to say something like this... would you have told me to man up when I was getting punched?

[consuming negativity]

I think people who get so bent out of shape over conventional insults have some level of emotional disturbance or are otherwise incapable of handling normal human interaction (oh no I used normal as though there is way to account for averages). Inb4 YOU DON'T KNOW OPPRESSION OR PREJUDICE LIKE I DO.

Insults are a part-and-parcel of growing up. Call it reactionary behavior, call it whatever, but adolescents are mean and insulting people makes you feel better about yourself when your confidence is being demolished by hormones and social pressure. I'm sure you guys had a bad time in highschool and some "popular" kids made fun of you, growing up is getting over it.

Do you think it is impossible to move beyond having our entire species needing to recover emotionally from their childhoods? That isn't meant to be a leading question, but I'm not sure how else to ask. I get that part of growing up is learning to put things in perspective and see things from other people's point of view, but where does that factor in to acknowledging the origins of the language we use? I understand the annoyance with not being able to communicate specific concepts because the idea of being negative or whatever is offensive, but at the same time, I don't think it's cool to be using people's diseases and troubles as insults. It's just rude and unnecessary. Conventional morality got a lot of things right, if even for the wrong reasons sometimes. The golden rule is not a bad one.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I think people who get so bent out of shape over conventional insults have some level of emotional disturbance or are otherwise incapable of handling normal human interaction
Actually, anyone who thinks demeaning other people is normal human interaction probably has some level of emotional disturbance.

[Dagoth Ur]

Who ever said I don't? Noticing emotional disturbance is easier for those who "suffer" from it.

@brad: :eyesrollingsohardtheyrefallingout:

I never said shit about "manning up". I said grow up and get over the painful shit that happened as a kid. That's what normal people do. And I don't know if you're aware but I've been in both gender circles and girls are far more cruel from an insult-generation standpoint. If anything I'm telling people to woman-up and stop letting others have so much power over you. Is this an easy thing to accomplish? Maybe, maybe not. One way or the other insulting each other is a thing that will never stop. Maybe we change focus but it will still be there all the same.

@sinister: I'd have told you to defend yourself. Y'know plenty of us had some real fucked up shit happen to us and we overcame. That's the goal: overcoming. I don't want to blame those who failed to get past childhood trauma and encouraging people to try to get over it is not blaming anyone.

@communer: it won't always be structured this way but children will always be mean until we are able to overcome sexual development. I don't think it is okay to make fun of the disabled but I don't think it is okay to wallow in childhood mistreatment and playing victim either.

[Sinister Intents]

I understand what you mean more DU, when I came to defending myself when I'd try I'd always get in worse trouble and/or the bullies would gang up on me further. I eventually just took the abuse because I'd been defeated too many times

[Dagoth Ur]

I can see why you gave up, nobody likes being alone. But if defending yourself means getting in trouble so be it.

From my entire experience in life those who found themselves alone with bullies on all sides tended to have some reason, beyond a simple disability, that attributed to this state of affairs.

[consuming negativity]

I can see why you gave up, nobody likes being alone. But if defending yourself means getting in trouble so be it.

From my entire experience in life those who found themselves alone with bullies on all sides tended to have some reason, beyond a simple disability, that attributed to this state of affairs.

I still am really interested in hearing you talk about your mean children in the context of sexual selection, but this is ridiculous. Yeah, their disability caused them to be sorta weird and everybody picked on them because they were an easy target. You act like it is somehow justified.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

From my entire experience in life those who found themselves alone with bullies on all sides tended to have some reason, beyond a simple disability, that attributed to this state of affairs.
Victim blaming.

[Dagoth Ur]

It's not blaming them because they did not instigate anything. Simply the way they are prompts excessive isolation which in turn makes them weak which in turn makes them easy targets. It's important to note this and take it into account.

@communer: I'm sorry that's the way I came off that wasn't my intention at all. Just because kids are mean to each other does not mean the cruelties they inflict on one another are justified. There are excesses in all things and sometimes normal intra-child behavior gets so excessive that one of the children dies or is permanently scarred (emotionally or physically).

As for the evolutionary, or sexual, value of childhood cruelty I cannot say what that is. I can just say that hormones coupled with the first steps toward autonomy are going to be chaotic and cruel no matter what social system prevails.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I never said shit about "manning up". I said grow up and get over the painful shit that happened as a kid. That's what normal people do. And I don't know if you're aware but I've been in both gender circles and girls are far more cruel from an insult-generation standpoint. If anything I'm telling people to woman-up and stop letting others have so much power over you. Is this an easy thing to accomplish? Maybe, maybe not. One way or the other insulting each other is a thing that will never stop. Maybe we change focus but it will still be there all the same.

Nah, but you used the exact same "logic" as those people complaining "Oh, kids today need to toughen up!". It's also condescending and presumptuous to assume that people "aren't over things" because they think maybe we can and should address the problem discriminatory attitudes and behaviour.

You're seriously trying to argue that it's just a fact of life that disabled people will always be attacked and that should just be "accepted", and not doing so is indicative of not "growing up"?

You're also seriously trying to argue that it's the victim's fault for not just shrugging everything off? You say "stop letting others have so much power over you" as if power is some kind of mutually-agreed-upon relationship.

You may as well stand by and watch someone be attacked while screaming "Stop letting them do that to you!".

I admit I responded emotionally against my better instincts because of the condescending attitude, and those instincts tell me this will go nowhere, so fuck it.

[Lily Briscoe]

I never said shit about "manning up". I said grow up and get over the painful shit that happened as a kid. That's what normal people do. This is a pretty dickish thing to say, actually. You don't know what peoples' experiences have been.

@communer: it won't always be structured this way but children will always be mean until we are able to overcome sexual development.Should I even ask?

[Lily Briscoe]

I somehow missed the previous several posts when I was typing that. Didn't mean to join a doggypile.

[Luís Henrique]

Why isn't there an option for those of us that don't believe in magic words?

Luís Henrique

[Sinister Intents]

Why isn't there an option for those of us that don't believe in magic words?

Luís Henrique

What?

[John Nada]

What about words like psychotic, psycho, crazy, insane, nuts, loony, deranged, bipolar, schizo, maniac, delusional and schizophrenic? They're often used as synonyms for unreasonable, irrational, illogical, ignorant, wrong, immoral, reckless, dangerous and homicidal. Yet they're also used to describe someone seriously mentally ill, like with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. I see and hear it all the time. Can they be considered ableist?

[trickster]

I find both words 'retarded', 'moron', and 'idiot' to be ableist, because of their history. I try not to use them. If I really feel like I need to insult someone's intelligence or ideas, I'll use the word stupid.

I have a long history of working with the developmentally disabled, and kids with autism, and I've seen first hand how much damage words like that can do. Perhaps 'moron' and 'idiot' HAVE taken on a different meaning in our language, but they're still some of the most common slurs to throw at people who struggle with mental disorders.

I would say developmentally disables are incredibly oppressed. Their subjected to stereotypes, they're taken advantage of, they have trouble finding work, they have trouble being believed, they're often mistreated by the police, etc.

People don't understand disabilities. They don't understand people with disabilities.

There was a comment where someone was complaining about trigger warnings. As a person with PTSD, I guarantee you, trigger warnings are not useless. When something triggers me, I become an emotional wreck. I may flashback to my trauma and relieve it all over again, smell it, hear it, feel it (physically). I get anxious. I'll have trouble sleeping that night and when I do sleep, I'll have nightmares. I'll spend days just emotionally exhausted and drained. Trigger warnings are there to protect people who need them. I don't expect every post that mentions something upsetting to include a trigger warning, but if it's going into detail, it would be nice. It helps me protect myself.

For me, there is nothing 'liberating' about being reminded of trauma again and again.

Saying 'insults are part of growing up' feels like, to me, a sort of brush off. We (we being society) tell victims of bullying that 'kids will be kids' and tell them to grow up. I think we should be working towards a world where bullying and verbally abusing people is not viewed as the norm...

Some people have been literally traumatized by the people who bullied them in high school, and suffer from PTSD because of it. As I explained above, PTSD is not something easily over come. It's a very real, very life-changing, very damaging illness.

People can, and do, have power over other people with or without their consent. People can and do take advantage of what they see as weakness in others. It's often not as simple as 'just don't let them have power over you'.


What about words like psychotic, psycho, crazy, insane, nuts, loony, deranged, bipolar, schizo, maniac, delusional and schizophrenic? They're often used as synonyms for unreasonable, irrational, illogical, ignorant, wrong, immoral, reckless, dangerous and homicidal. Yet they're also used to describe someone seriously mentally ill, like with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. I see and hear it all the time. Can they be considered ableist?

I would definitely call those words ableist. For example, the word psychotic is a clinical term - it refers to any mental illness that causes a person to break away from reality. Just throwing it around lightly, especially as an insult, can be hurtful to anyone who battles psychosis, or knows someone who battles psychosis.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Aren't basically all insults "ableist"?

[John Nada]

Aren't basically all insults "ableist"?

No, a lot are racist and sexist. And pig, sloth, dog, chicken, leech, pest, rat and ass are speciesist:rolleyes:

[Yazman]

"Retarded", as far as I understand, is a term used medically for someone with a low intelligence. The definition is larger, but it basically means a person with a intelligence lower than a threshold.

But this is the same for the word "moron". The word "moron", some years ago, was also used medically like "retarded" is, and denoted a person with a very low intelligence. Even "idiot" used to be used medically.

But the question is this. While some people on here will not tolerate the word "retard", they will tolerate the word "moron". This seems inconsistent. Even if none of these words were used medically, we'd still be using it as an insult based on implying someone has lower intelligence, i.e. practically what "retarded" means - and therefore it would still be ableist. Even only some years ago, "retarded" medically referred exclusively to a low intelligence.

The only possible other explanation would be that "idiot" and "moron" came to have other meanings - such as someone we don't like. But we could argue that "retarded" has also acquired these other meanings.

Your thoughts on this issue?

Some years ago, it frustrated me when "retarded" was used as an insult, but not when "idiot" was used. But I realized this is inconsistent. Now I mostly don't care when I see it used, but I still don't use the word.

Just a point, I'm pretty sure that "retarded" hasn't been a medical term for decades.