Plan vs Market

[Righteous Prophet]

I am first wondering which critique of capitalism is more important, the alienation and exploitation of the worker or the anarchy and contradictory nature of markets? In addition I am also putting out there question, can workers really be liberated if there isn't self-management. And if this answer is no, how is it possible to not have some sort of market exchange based on labor credits? I'd like to here your thoughts, comrades.

[Jimmie Higgins]

How are these things separate? The chaos and competition of the markets helps ensure that workers are subjected to increasing rates of exploitation (all else being equal) since firms are competing, and alienation from the means and processes of production also come out of the competitive and wealth-concentrating tendencies of capitalist relations.

[Црвена]

How are these things separate? The chaos and competition of the markets helps ensure that workers are subjected to increasing rates of exploitation (all else being equal) since firms are competing, and alienation from the means and processes of production also come out of the competitive and wealth-concentrating tendencies of capitalist relations.

This.

I don't think workers can be truly liberated without self-management, but I also don't think workers can be truly liberated while capital still exists. Markets would just get a socialist society right back to square one.

[Righteous Prophet]

How are these things separate? The chaos and competition of the markets helps ensure that workers are subjected to increasing rates of exploitation (all else being equal) since firms are competing, and alienation from the means and processes of production also come out of the competitive and wealth-concentrating tendencies of capitalist relations.
But can't wealth concentration happen under state control with the state acting as the bourgeoisie?

[Righteous Prophet]

This.

I don't think workers can be truly liberated without self-management, but I also don't think workers can be truly liberated while capital still exists. Markets would just get a socialist society right back to square one.
Can you just briefly define capital? Is it accumulated surplus value? Or is it just money and resources directed toward investment in production which all societies have?

[tuwix]

I am first wondering which critique of capitalism is more important, the alienation and exploitation of the worker or the anarchy and contradictory nature of markets? In addition I am also putting out there question, can workers really be liberated if there isn't self-management. And if this answer is no, how is it possible to not have some sort of market exchange based on labor credits? I'd like to here your thoughts, comrades.

Even if you eliminate a money or something that is to pretend that money isn't (labor credits, for example) but money is indeed) which is far future and on this form almost nobody cares how to do its effectively, there will be an exchange between commodities. Even when everything will be free and available in distribution centers people will continue exchange for the sake of convenience (for example, a friend is nearer than a distribution center).

[ckaihatsu]

Even if you eliminate a money or something that is to pretend that money isn't (labor credits, for example) but money is indeed) which is far future and on this form almost nobody cares how to do its effectively, there will be an exchange between commodities.


It depends on how they're defined -- there are varying conceptualizations of their function.

Here's from a recent thread:





(Note that the ham and yogurt goods themselves would never be 'bought' or 'sold', because the labor credits are only used in regard to labor-*hours* worked, and *not* for exchangeability with any goods, because that would be commodity production.)

This kind of liberated-production assumes that the means of production have been *liberated* and collectivized, so there wouldn't be any need for any kind of finance or capital-based 'ownership' there.





So, no buying or selling of goods / materials, and also no capital, no finance, and no private property. Where's the money? Show me the money! (heh)


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Even when everything will be free and available in distribution centers people will continue exchange for the sake of convenience (for example, a friend is nearer than a distribution center).


If direct distribution is done correctly there would be no need for any intermediaries, either in the form of capital / exchange values, or as with middlemen of any kind.