International Volunteers in Ukraine

[GiantMonkeyMan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28951324

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77262000/jpg/_77262583_023432766-1.jpg
Rafa Munoz Perez, a Spaniard serving with the rebels in Donetsk, wears a Spanish Republic wristband


French, Spanish, Swedish or Serb, the foreigners fighting for both sides in east Ukraine's bloody conflict hail from across Europe and come with a bewildering array of agendas.

The non-mercenaries among them are motivated by causes which can stretch back to the wars in the former Yugoslavia - and even further still, to the Spanish Civil War of the 1930s.

Russia is the elephant in the room, dwarfing any other foreign nationality, although it is increasingly hard to disentangle Russians fighting as volunteers from regular soldiers allegedly deployed on covert missions.

Ukraine's pro-Russian rebels like to talk up their foreign volunteer fighters, presenting them as latter-day International Brigades fighting "fascism". Meanwhile there has been some debate in Kiev on the wisdom of creating a Ukrainian "Foreign Legion".

Here we look at some of the foreign fighters by country of origin, in a phenomenon which, in a small way, mirrors that of young Muslims from Britain and other parts of Europe travelling to the Middle East to fight in its wars.

The article is relatively long so I've just posted the introduction. The vast majority of the volunteers seem to be right-wing nutjobs but it's totally fascinating to see some left-wing nutjobs as well.

[Red Son]

Seems a lot of leftists have seen this as a former Soviet Union versus the West conflict, with Ukraine seen as the imperialist puppet run by fascists and Russia as the supporter of a proto-soviet style rebellion in the East. I'm sure there are a few who've gone there thinking it echoes the fight for the Spanish Republic of the 30s.

[Tim Cornelis]

Tankies and fascists, so different and yet so similar. Backing Assad, fighting for fascist rebels, where do the parallels end?

[Hrafn]

I am very sad to see Spanish "republicans" fighting alongside Fascist volunteers throughout Eastern and Southern Europe, among them Italian Fascists.

It is the bastard child of the International Brigades... and the Corpo Truppe Volontarie.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

first as tragedy, then as farce

[KurtFF8]

Some on the Left seem to believe this is the rebirth of the International Brigades

http://journal-neo.org/2014/09/01/ukraine-international-brigades-reborn/

Personally I think that's delusional

[Tim Cornelis]

Cheering on fascists for fighting fascism. Delusional is an understatement.

From the article: "Military veterans from France and Germany have already gone to Ukraine, to stand with the people in Donbass region. As the fascist Junta in Kiev reigns death and destruction on the people in East, people from far off lands are joining with them to fight against Wall Street backed fascism."

From BBC: "Four of them [among the 20 or so French fighters], including two former soldiers, went to Donetsk to fight for the rebels. They were filmed by Russian newspaper Komsomolskaya Pravda posing with guns ... They told Le Monde they were the founders of an ultra-nationalist movement called Continental Unity, which has organised demonstrations in France and Serbia in support of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and Serbian war crimes suspect Vojislav Seselj.

In their view, according to Le Monde, Russia is the final bulwark against liberal globalisation which they consider "responsible for the decline in national values and loss of French sovereignty"."

Ah yeah. Ultra-nationalists fighting against decadent liberal values and for sovereign nation-states, the true spirit of the International Brigades.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Only delusion could explain how yanukovych's government has come to represent some ridiculous notion of democracy in the minds of communists.

[hashem]

anyone who is stupid enough to fight for "rebels" in eastern Ukraine is just a sevant of Russian imperialism. i even doubt that those foreigners are real leftists, this might be just a propaganda for defaming the left.

[Deep Sea]

Assad and Donbass rebels > White Power radiKKKal Labor Aristocrats on this site

[DOOM]

Assad and Donbass rebels > White Power radiKKKal Labor Aristocrats on this site

Anti-semitism, defence of maoism, radiKKKal
Uh, you a third-worldist?

[Tim Cornelis]

[Fascists and Bonapatist regimes are preferable to and better than communists]


Yes he is. I'm not sure why he isn't banned or restricted for his anti-working class politics.

[Rurkel]

Meh, calling the rebellion in Ukraine a "fascist regime" is decidedly hyperbolic. Not to compliment it, it's just too in flux, and too dedicated to military operations to afford large-scale "fascist" repression. Fascist participation, sure.

[Tim Cornelis]

Bonapartist regime, not fascist regime.

But I wouldn't have problems describing the New Russia state as a fascist regime. It is, presently, ruled by one unelected party, the New Russia Party, which is a far-right ultranationalist party, a coalition of Nazbols, anti-semites, and neo-fascists. The regime doesn't just have fascist participation, it is headed by fascists.

[Slavic]

Assad and Donbass rebels > White Power radiKKKal Labor Aristocrats on this site

So full of lolz considering Assad and the Donbass rebels are white. Shouldn't you be holed up in Northern Iraq fighting the crusaders with ISIS?

[Geiseric]

Meh, calling the rebellion in Ukraine a "fascist regime" is decidedly hyperbolic. Not to compliment it, it's just too in flux, and too dedicated to military operations to afford large-scale "fascist" repression. Fascist participation, sure.

Thats basically what ive been saying.

[Rafiq]

Well, well.


They told Le Monde they were the founders of an ultra-nationalist movement called Continental Unity, which has organised demonstrations in France and Serbia in support of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and Serbian war crimes suspect Vojislav Seselj.

In their view, according to Le Monde, Russia is the final bulwark against liberal globalisation which they consider "responsible for the decline in national values and loss of French sovereignty".


The greatest tragedy is that this is not a conflict of politics. All politics, "left or right" are subservient to the barbaric conflict fought on national lines. The weakness of the Left in its most apparent form. One thing is clear: The reactionary nature of Socialism today, fascists and "leftists" are able to fight alongside each other because they are both petite bourgeois - and reactionary in character.

[Comrade Samuel]

Well, well.



The greatest tragedy is that this is not a conflict of politics. All politics, "left or right" are subservient to the barbaric conflict fought on national lines. The weakness of the Left in its most apparent form. One thing is clear: The reactionary nature of Socialism today, fascists and "leftists" are able to fight alongside each other because they are both petite bourgeois - and reactionary in character.

You raise a very fair point but what can be done? I've heard it argued here before that the petite bourgeoise are currently the largest social class in the world. If this is true then in times of crisis when capitalist institutions are collapsing it is the responsibility of the communist to bring them to the side of the workers even if they themselves aren't.

I see absolutely nothing good coming from this crisis in Ukraine; almost 100 years to the day since WWI broke out and we still see the imperialist vultures picking the meat from the bones of eastern Europe. There may now be international "peacekeeping" groups like the UN but what can they accomplish if one of their most powerful members is on the offensive?

I see these "international brigades" as nothing more than mercenaries and thugs looking to get in while the gettin' is good. They are nothing like the men and women on either side of the Spanish civil war and I sincerely doubt there is any faction involved in this conflict that true leftists should have any part in.

[Rafiq]

You raise a very fair point but what can be done? I've heard it argued here before that the petite bourgeoise are currently the largest social class in the world.

This is untrue. Even then, although they are susceptible, the rural petite bourgeoisie is capable of possessing progressive consciousness.

[The Jay]

Assad and Donbass rebels > White Power radiKKKal Labor Aristocrats on this site

I personally prefer not to side with dictators. Next you will be saying that Ghaddaffi was a socialist, or anti-imperialist at the least.

[Rafiq]

Often, borderline fascist reactionaries will guise their reactionary views by attempting to overtly distance themselves from historical trends of reaction: i.e. "Fascist America, Fascist Israel, Amerikka" and so on. Rather than a natural, logical result of their political views, this is a desperate form of ass covering. The natural, logical result of their political views are neo-Fascism. Nothing is more sickening than to cowardly take refuge in history: To be revolted and disgusted by the conditions of today, through hiding under rocks of the past. "In the Soviet Union, we didn't have this promiscuity!" and so on. Their reactionary views and social conservatism is expressed through the application of aspects of former progressive movements or states, unique to their according circumstances, to TODAY. This is why they are reactionaries.

[Deep Sea]

So full of lolz considering Assad and the Donbass rebels are white. Shouldn't you be holed up in Northern Iraq fighting the crusaders with ISIS?

Hunkies and Arabs are white? I thought "white" was a bunch of bullshit Euro-settlers made up when they came to AmeriKKKa.

[Deep Sea]

I personally prefer not to side with dictators. Next you will be saying that Ghaddaffi was a socialist, or anti-imperialist at the least.

Gaddafi > White Power "Left" Labor Aristocrat radiKKKals. Just ask the IRA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3sRUQUY4Fc) (again, also not "white" people).

[Rafiq]

Hunkies and Arabs are white? I thought "white" was a bunch of bullshit Euro-settlers made up when they came to AmeriKKKa.

You do realize that it's hard to tell the difference between many Syrians and white Europeans, right?

[motion denied]

white moderator overlords, please ban the wingnut.

he's a threat to the continuation of white-european-ameriKKKan policies of RL.

Regards,
A White Brother from overseas.

[Deep Sea]

You do realize that it's hard to tell the difference between many Syrians and white Europeans, right?

"All you people look alike" eh?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Assad and Donbass rebels > White Power radiKKKal Labor Aristocrats on this site


Gaddafi > White Power "Left" Labor Aristocrat radiKKKals. Just ask the IRA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3sRUQUY4Fc) (again, also not "white" people).
Could you expand upon this position, please? How are the people on this site supporters of 'white power'? Why would you consider bourgeois political leaders 'greater than' (through use of the > symbol) the revolutionaries on this forum, even if you disagree with their tendency? What aspect of the Donbass rebels makes them worthy of solidarity and support? What do you consider a 'labour aristocrat'? And, finally, why do you use mock-words like 'radikkkal'?

[The Jay]

"All you people look alike" eh?

You're a shitty troll.

[Slavic]

Could you expand upon this position, please? How are the people on this site supporters of 'white power'? Why would you consider bourgeois political leaders 'greater than' (through use of the > symbol) the revolutionaries on this forum, even if you disagree with their tendency? What aspect of the Donbass rebels makes them worthy of solidarity and support? What do you consider a 'labour aristocrat'? And, finally, why do you use mock-words like 'radikkkal'?

Don't bother, to him only WASPs are white and they are enforcing their White Agenda on the world through the vessel that is AmeriKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKa .

Also, Hunky??? Really? Dude you are fucking fishing aren't you. I am of recent Hungarian descent but I'm sure you will find a way rationalize me as some white racist socialist.

[willwinall]

I think the ideologies of all the participants in this conflict are being exploited way too much.

[bropasaran]

Seems a lot of leftists have seen this as a former Soviet Union versus the West conflict
Let me know when a side representing the former Black Army appears, I might go as a volunteer.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

"All you people look alike" eh?

Erhm, last I remember, Rafiq is a Dearborn Arab.


Could you expand upon this position, please? How are the people on this site supporters of 'white power'? Why would you consider bourgeois political leaders 'greater than' (through use of the > symbol) the revolutionaries on this forum, even if you disagree with their tendency? What aspect of the Donbass rebels makes them worthy of solidarity and support? What do you consider a 'labour aristocrat'? And, finally, why do you use mock-words like 'radikkkal'?

You're asking for a coherent explanation from Deep Sea? You might as well be trying to get gold from lead.

[renalenin]

Meh, calling the rebellion in Ukraine a "fascist regime" is decidedly hyperbolic. Not to compliment it, it's just too in flux, and too dedicated to military operations to afford large-scale "fascist" repression. Fascist participation, sure.

Comrades should be defending the Peoples' Republic against the Kiev fascists and NATO. Russia is not much involved in this just now, and the evidence for them giving tanks and troops seems cooked. The tanks are likely captured. The three thousand or so troops are likely volunteers.

If Russia really was involved it would be a walkover. Really ugly.

There might be a few dodgey volunteers but most seem genuine comrades. We should support comrades against the Kiev fascists and their NATO friends.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

[Hrafn]

Comrades should be defending the Peoples' Republic against the Kiev fascists and NATO. Russia is not much involved in this just now, and the evidence for them giving tanks and troops seems cooked. The tanks are likely captured. The three thousand or so troops are likely volunteers.

If Russia really was involved it would be a walkover. Really ugly.

There might be a few dodgey volunteers but most seem genuine comrades. We should support comrades against the Kiev fascists and their NATO friends.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

Which of the People's Republics? The fascist one, or the fascist one?

There are few comrades of mine in eastern Ukraine fighting for either side, if any at all. You though, given by your collaborator politics, no doubt have them by the thousand.

[Rafiq]

Erhm, last I remember, Rafiq is a Dearborn Arab.


I actually am not from Dearborn and I don't live there. It's about a 40min drive from where I'm from.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

You're asking for a coherent explanation from Deep Sea? You might as well be trying to get gold from lead.
Yeah I know but sometimes it's not all that useful to just insult people, whereas potentially getting them to question the foundations of their politics could reveal a lot. Dunno... guess I'm an optimist about people sometimes. :)


If Russia really was involved it would be a walkover. Really ugly.
This line of arguing fascinates me because if NATO really got involved you'd see tank columns and more sweeping through Ukraine. No, don't be ridiculous. You've got to be able to recognise that both imperialist groupings are intervening in Ukraine for their own benefit and not for the benefit of the working people in Ukraine.

I saw some of this bullshit at the anti-NATO demo in Newport; nutters handing out leaflets calling for everyone to defend Russia from NATO aggression... almost no mention of the working class of Ukraine. Pretty much implicit support of Russian bourgeois hegemony over the Ukraine... what kind of position is that? How can anyone in 2014 take that stance? It's laughable. Imagine trying to organise with the Ukrainian working class with that analysis.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I actually am not from Dearborn and I don't live there. It's about a 40min drive from where I'm from.

Oh ok I thought I remembered Devrim saying you were in that general area but I must have mistakenly thought he meant closer to Dearborn.

[renalenin]

I saw some of this bullshit at the anti-NATO demo in Newport; nutters handing out leaflets calling for everyone to defend Russia from NATO aggression... almost no mention of the working class of Ukraine. Pretty much implicit support of Russian bourgeois hegemony over the Ukraine... what kind of position is that? How can anyone in 2014 take that stance? It's laughable. Imagine trying to organise with the Ukrainian working class with that analysis.

Not too sure about those people at Newport, you know how these protests bring out all of the nutters and trots. But the Donbass working class do appear to be the ones doing most of the real fighting against the fascists. Personally I do not care for Putin and the oligarchs, they are only slightly better than the Svoboda and Right Sektor thugs of Kiev. So if you are supporting the Ukrainian working class then I say good on you.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

[Dire Helix]

But I wouldn't have problems describing the New Russia state as a fascist regime. It is, presently, ruled by one unelected party, the New Russia Party, which is a far-right ultranationalist party, a coalition of Nazbols, anti-semites, and neo-fascists. The regime doesn't just have fascist participation, it is headed by fascists.

This is, of course, a gross exaggeration. Russia's is your run-of-the-mill right-wing conservative regime that employs a modest amount of mild nationalist rhetoric, but at the same time doesn't shy away from social populism and the token talk of the friendship between peoples. United Russia is an electoral platform for careerists and opportunists of all sorts who would paint themselves white, red or blue if need be. A far-right party of conscious nationalists it is not.

Fascist regimes do not allow legal Marxist activity of any kind which is not the case in Putin's Russia where us Marxists can freely organize meetings, lectures and seminars without any obstacles on the part of the state. I don't possess a crystal ball and I don't know what the future holds but as of now the regime in Russia is absolutely not an impediment to communist organization and education.

[Sasha]

Tim was talking about new Russia, New-Russia is the name of the regime in the seperatist areas in the Ukraine, its not the same as the United Russia party of Putin.

[Dire Helix]

I stand corrected then. Somehow didn't realize that New Russia was in reference to Novorossiya.

[Hrafn]

I stand corrected then. Somehow didn't realize that New Russia was in reference to Novorossiya.

I'm not surprised you didn't. Wikipedia refers to it as "Federal State of Novorossiya", and there's been plenty of discussion over there whether "New Russia" or "Novorossiya" should be used.

[John Nada]

The historic connection to Russian and Ukraine was the nation Kievan Rus. However it is understandable why the rebels would chose a new name instead.

Is Novorossiya(New Russia) a reference to US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's "New Europe"(former Warsaw Pact countries that supported the US invasion of Iraq)?I think Rossiya(land of Russia) might also have a more inclusive connotations than Russiya(land of Russians). If so, what is the meaning?

[DDR]

The historic connection to Russian and Ukraine was the nation Kievan Rus. However it is understandable why the rebels would chose a new name instead.

Is Novorossiya(New Russia) a reference to US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's "New Europe"(former Warsaw Pact countries that supported the US invasion of Iraq)?I think Rossiya(land of Russia) might also have a more inclusive connotations than Russiya(land of Russians). If so, what is the meaning?

IIRC, the territory of Novorussia was a territory added to the Russian Empire sometime in the XVI or XVII centuries. It goes from Donetsk/Lugansk all the way to Odessa to the border of what is now Moldova/Transnistria. And I think is from this territory that they get their name.

[Hrafn]

Link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya :)

[John Nada]

^That Wikipedia article is at start quality and most of it has no citations.:glare: It seems to be historic revisionism of an insignificant stub in light of the current events.

The New Europe thing the just crossed my mind. Maybe the US got it from Novorossiya? Or not?

[Rurkel]

Nah, the wiki article is broadly correct. Territories which the Russian Empire conquered from the Crimean Khanate in the second half of 18th century and some territories adjacent to them, which were settled en masse later were called Novorossiya since the conquest.

The name pattern roughly corresponds to colonial/settlement/resettlement stuff like New England, New Spain etc. No connection to Rumsfeld whatsoever :)

[Hrafn]

Hardly true, Brown. Clearly no stub status pre-conflict.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Novorossiya&oldid=566719698

[Sasha]

There is actually a lot of intresting background of the region and the various settlements and conquests through the ages in the book about Nestor Makhno "anarchy's cossack" by Skirda, I can recommend it.
http://www.akpress.org/nestormakhnoanarchyscossack.html

[John Nada]

Hardly true, Brown. Clearly no stub status pre-conflict.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Novorossiya&oldid=566719698

Doh!:Ohmy:

While reading the history of how Novorossiya was acquired during the Russo-Turkish wars, I couldn't help but notice similarities to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Turkish_War_%281877%E2%80%9378%29 . For the most part not in the exact same area, just the politics, which Marx commented on: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1878/letters/78_02_11.htm http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/letters/77_09_27.htm
Nah, the wiki article is broadly correct. Territories which the Russian Empire conquered from the Crimean Khanate in the second half of 18th century and some territories adjacent to them, which were settled en masse later were called Novorossiya since the conquest. The name pattern roughly corresponds to colonial/settlement/resettlement stuff like New England, New Spain etc. No connection to Rumsfeld whatsoever:)The impression I get from both versions of the Wikipedia article is that the name New Russia is rather antiquated, like New Amsterdam or New Sweden. But that's not my main point.


The area became part of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and the term "Novorossiya" resurfaced after the Soviet Union fell in 1991. In 1994, Transnistria, the breakaway state between Moldova and Ukraine, declared that it was "an inalienable part of the Russian state's southern region, [which] also includes Crimea, Odessa oblast, and a number of other [Ukrainian] oblasts, [and is] known as Novorossiya." When it looked like NATO might expand to include Ukraine in 2003, “some not entirely academic quarters in Moscow played with the idea of a major geopolitical redesign of the northern Black Sea area, under which southern Ukraine, from the Crimea to Odessa, would secede from Kiev and form a Moscow-friendly buffer state, ‘Novorossiya’—New Russia," writes Dmitry Trenin, director of the Carnegie Moscow Center. Now, the swathe of land spanning from Transnistria to Donetsk is increasingly referred to by that name. http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117284/federalized-ukraine-could-mean-return-novorossiya

So it might actually be related to Donald Rumsfeld :Ohmy: !

The term New Europe actually precedes Rumsfeld: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_European_Order and http://www.osce.org/mc/39516 (Charter of Paris for a New Europe). The Charter of Paris ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_of_Paris_for_a_New_Europe ) was created nearly one year before Yeltsin's counter-revolution, according to a wiki stub that probably should be longer. It was built on the Helsinki Accords https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords . The rebels keep going on about fighting fascism(even when they're fascist too) and opposing "European Values"(usually followed with a homophobic comment). It might be related to these two things.

[Devrim]

Oh ok I thought I remembered Devrim saying you were in that general area but I must have mistakenly thought he meant closer to Dearborn.

Not me, I have never heard of Dearborn until now. Indeed the first time it was used I took it as an adjective meaning someone 'dear' to us.

Devrim

[Prometeo liberado]

Take your pick. Russian organized capital and imperialism or the ever encroaching same, just in the form of NATO.