Hello all!

[Habermas]

Hi, I'm a democratic Socialist, with market socialist views on the market lol. I have sympathies to Marxism, and sympathy for anarchism (without really understanding how it would work in a city.) And I have a disgust for moderate liberals. Soooooooooooo thats about it. Since I'm 14, I'm mainly here to learn about the radical leftist world.

[Q]

Welcome :)

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What are "socialist views on the market"?

[RedWorker]

Well, he specified market socialist view on the market.

[Habermas]

Welcome :)
What are "socialist views on the market"?
Well, socialists, don't like the market. I said MARKET socialism, which is the idea that we need the market, but we need to get rid of the bourgeois. This solution is that the means of production would be controlled by the workers, thus leaving the market intact, and the workers with much better salaries and leaving the workers with total control. Thus eliminating the bourgeois, from the picture. That is of course a very general definition. :)

[Q]

Well, socialists, don't like the market. I said MARKET socialism, which is the idea that we need the market, but we need to get rid of the bourgeois. This solution is that the means of production would be controlled by the workers, thus leaving the market intact, and the workers with much better salaries and leaving the workers with total control. Thus eliminating the bourgeois, from the picture. That is of course a very general definition. :)

So, something like democratic fascism, wet fire or an interesting issue of The Socialist. I get it.

[Црвена]

Well, socialists, don't like the market. I said MARKET socialism, which is the idea that we need the market, but we need to get rid of the bourgeois. This solution is that the means of production would be controlled by the workers, thus leaving the market intact, and the workers with much better salaries and leaving the workers with total control. Thus eliminating the bourgeois, from the picture. That is of course a very general definition. :)



Sooo...you want the workers to control their own enslavement? Capital's existence itself causes exploitation, not merely a lack of workers' control, and production and exchange of commodities necessitate capital's existence. Markets are incompatible with socialism because commodity exchange is incompatible with socialism.

[Q]

Sooo...you want the workers to control their own enslavement? Capital's existence itself causes exploitation, not merely a lack of workers' control, and production and exchange of commodities necessitate capital's existence. Markets are incompatible with socialism because commodity exchange is incompatible with socialism.
Exactly. Thank you.

This is is exactly the difference between communists and conspiracy theorists: It's not about those 'evil people at the top that are scheming and plotting against humanity' ... It's the social relations that are the problem.

[Habermas]

Sooo...you want the workers to control their own enslavement? Capital's existence itself causes exploitation, not merely a lack of workers' control, and production and exchange of commodities necessitate capital's existence. Markets are incompatible with socialism because commodity exchange is incompatible with socialism.

You say workers would control their own enslavement, I would say they are their own masters. It's a system of self governance through democratic means. And on the issue of capital I don't feel that it's so black and white. Are the worker's stealing from themselves? I don't feel that capital is going to be evil, if controlled, it will be unethical in some vague sense but practically, would be fine.

[The Jay]

Let us be nice to the newbie, he knows not what he says. If ya have any questions, ask. It is better to ask and learn than to not and while lurking could help you learn, asking will be faster.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

You say workers would control their own enslavement, I would say they are their own masters. It's a system of self governance through democratic means. And on the issue of capital I don't feel that it's so black and white. Are the worker's stealing from themselves? I don't feel that capital is going to be evil, if controlled, it will be unethical in some vague sense but practically, would be fine.

Socialists don't oppose capital because it's "evil", whatever that means.

We oppose capital because capitalism leads to deprivation, insecurity, material want simultaneously with revolting waste, the enslavement of producers to the process of production, horrifying backwardness in the regions of belated development, the separation and uneven development of urban and rural areas, the bourgeois family and the misogyny, homophobia and transphobia that result from this institution, fascist oppression in times of crisis, the cyclic crises due to overproduction themselves, racism and ethnic chauvinism, and a million other problems, each of which would in themselves be enough to reject the entire rotten social edifice of modern society.

What you're proposing has nothing to do with that. You aren't rejecting capital but proposing that we manage it in another way. Well, guess what, they had workers' co-ops and similar guff in Algeria, in Spain, hell they have them everywhere now. And yet the system - private ownership of the means of production and generalised commodity production - remains, with all of the problems above.

[Habermas]

From what people have said above ^^^ and from books i had/have been reading recently, I'm going back to being unsure of any particular solution. However i concede, that it seems like any solution to capitalism, right now doesn't fix a bleeding wound, and only makes it easier for the bourgeoisie to keep the current system or something similar.

[The Idler]

Welcome Habermas.

[Црвена]

From what people have said above ^^^ and from books i had/have been reading recently, I'm going back to being unsure of any particular solution. However i concede, that it seems like any solution to capitalism, right now doesn't fix a bleeding wound, and only makes it easier for the bourgeoisie to keep the current system or something similar.

What makes you hesitant towards a planned economy?