Russians in Ukraine

[Red Son]

Thoughts on the latest reports that Russian soldiers are directly involved in the fighting in southern Ukraine? (the term 'invasion' has been banded about a lot). Kremilin are denying it, not able to post links but it's being reported everywhere (saw it on BBC, no doubt it's on other news sites, Russain papers are commenting on it too apparently)

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

What I think is odd is that a week ago there was an article on the BBC where they spoke in a very damning tone regarding the rebels parading captured government troops through the streets of Donetsk, but there is no such tone present in articles detailing Kiev's parading of captured russian troops before the western press. There's clearly so much bias and misinformation coming from both sides that hardly anything can be believed at this point. Russian volunteers fighting with the rebels is suspicious as hell, but it's not the same thing as what happened in Crimea and the attempt to paint as if it were is very distressing.

[Tim Cornelis]

Yeah, I thought I saw some stills of captured Russian soldiers... Indeed, that is against international law too -- but not a word of condemnation.

I'm also not sure if they are really Russian soldiers on leave who volunteered. I doubt that, for instance, US soldiers would be permitted to volunteer in active warzones on their own initiative. So even if they are on leave, then presumably their actions are (actively) condoned by the central command or the Kremlin.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

More than stills, I believe the Ukrainian government initially released video taken from interrogations with the soldiers making statements that I'm sure might come back to haunt them on their return to Russia. I'll dig around and see if I can find them.

US soldiers go awol all of the time, and there's not even a compelling armed conflict on the other side of our borders for them to participate in. Russian soldiers going awol to fight with the rebels on their own initiative seems just as likely as them being ordered to do it, with all the ethnic tensions that have been stroked by this idiocy. Taken in a global context with everything else happening around the world, this is a very stupid and very dangerous game that NATO and Russia are playing with each other.

Edit: found the article http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213

[Sasha]

While there are obviously plenty of Russian "volunteers" and "advisors" in the sepratist held areas the area where this new front is opened and these Russians are taken prisoner is a whole different game, its the coastal road from the Russian border through the strategic important harbour maripol.
This happens to be also the only land road from Russia to the Crimea.
I think its pretty obvious this is the actual Russian army invading the Ukraine, which is imperialism plain ans simple.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Compared with how brazen and overwhelming their strategy for taking Crimea was, a lone armored column and some under-informed paratroopers doesn't seem like much of an invasion force, but who knows at this point.

[Geiseric]

Its hard to "sneak" a thousand people somewhere like its hard to "sneak" a buk missile system. Kiev is desperate so theyre willing to say whatever they want. Ukraine has claimed de facto russian involvement from the get go, which has proven bunk since the federal russian government already has what they wanted in Crimea while DENYING Donbass and Luhansk entry into the RF.

Kiev wants to become part of the EU, by selling out the country to international banks. Russia has crimea and has no reason to invade Donbass or Ukraine as a whole. All of this is despite the votes by the population of Donbass to join the russian federation. So no I wouldn't be surprised if there are russians with combat experience in Donbass or eastern Ukraine as a whole. But the Russian Army is not in Ukraine, anybody who claims that is lacking vital evidence.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Have you seen the gear the rebels are walking around with these days? Compared to them, IS fighters look like low level street thugs, and they're from an organization with hundreds of millions of dollars in assets and an entire looted armory from two different armies. There's no way Russia is not involved, you're still crazy geis

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

How long before some Tankie insults the martyrs of Spain by comparing these soldiers to the Lincoln Brigade etc?


Its hard to "sneak" a thousand people somewhere like its hard to "sneak" a buk missile system. Kiev is desperate so theyre willing to say whatever they want. Ukraine has claimed de facto russian involvement from the get go, which has proven bunk since the federal russian government already has what they wanted in Crimea while DENYING Donbass and Luhansk entry into the RF.


The border between Ukraine and Russia is long, and yes, it would be hard to sneak Russian forces across the border, because it would leave evidence. Like tank track marks, Russian POWs, burials of dead or hospitalization of wounded soldiers in Russia, sudden and unexpected separatist victories, and so on - all of which have been reported.



Kiev wants to become part of the EU, by selling out the country to international banks. Russia has crimea and has no reason to invade Donbass or Ukraine as a whole. All of this is despite the votes by the population of Donbass to join the russian federation. So no I wouldn't be surprised if there are russians with combat experience in Donbass or eastern Ukraine as a whole. But the Russian Army is not in Ukraine, anybody who claims that is lacking vital evidence.

Russia wants Ukraine in its orbit, not that of the EU, and if it is going to join the EU, Russia wants it to be as weak and unstable as possible. Also, the Donbass region has industry and natural resources, and many Russian nationalists are supportive of annexing the territory. So there are economic and political calculations at play, too.

Also, the Donbass polls regarding Russian annexation was hardly the most transparent or trustworthy vote in history ...

[DOOM]

Have you seen the gear the rebels are walking around with these days? Compared to them, IS fighters look like low level street thugs, and they're from an organization with hundreds of millions of dollars in assets and an entire looted armory from two different armies. There's no way Russia is not involved, you're still crazy geis

Well besides of that, it would be pretty stupid of the russians not to defend their geostrategic interests.

[Comrade Samuel]

1. Hey guys I'm back.

2. This shit looks real:

http://liveuamap.com/e/undefined?ll=48.76;34.51&zoom=6

[Martin Luther]

Ukraine constantly cries wolf, and the western media goes along with it every time.

I wouldn't really worry yet. Let's all remember who started this conflict.

[DOOM]

1. Hey guys I'm back.

2. This shit looks real:

http://liveuamap.com/e/undefined?ll=48.76;34.51&zoom=6
holy shit
http://i61.tinypic.com/2lsfdi8.jpg

[Martin Luther]

news.antiwar. com/2014/08/28/reports-of-russian-troops-in-ukraine-but-little-evidence/

just to put things in context.

[Geiseric]

news.antiwar. com/2014/08/28/reports-of-russian-troops-in-ukraine-but-little-evidence/

just to put things in context.

Right. Little evidence. But people on this forum will say what they want anyways, because they for some reason cant grasp the true nature of this conflict. There are hundreds of thousands of people evacuating into Russia, all of who have no access to food, so by this point Russia has more a right to intervene than NATO.

Also Ukranians were fine with the ties with Russia before the Maidan protests, led by Nazis, happened. If you cant connect the dots by now you're hopeless.

[Geiseric]

How long before some Tankie insults the martyrs of Spain by comparing these soldiers to the Lincoln Brigade etc?



The border between Ukraine and Russia is long, and yes, it would be hard to sneak Russian forces across the border, because it would leave evidence. Like tank track marks, Russian POWs, burials of dead or hospitalization of wounded soldiers in Russia, sudden and unexpected separatist victories, and so on - all of whichh have been reported.



Russia wants Ukraine in its orbit, not that of the EU, and if it is going to join the EU, Russia wants it to be as weak and unstable as possible. Also, the Donbass region has industry and natural resources, and many Russian nationalists are supportive of annexing the territory. So there are economic and political calculations at play, too. Also the victories are more due to desertion on the part of the Kiev army, which is demoralized due to the atrocities theyve committed.

Also, the Donbass polls regarding Russian annexation was hardly the most transparent or trustworthy vote in history ...

All of those are reported by Kiev, who are capturing independent journalists in he region. Also I already claimed individual russian citizens crossing is different from "the russian army" becoming involved.

[Mather]

For the last few months there has been a constant stream of 'news reports' saying that the Russians are on the verge of invading the Ukraine or that they have already done so. So far there has been no invasion of any kind that can be independently and objectively verified, which leads me to think that these 'reports' of an invasion or an imminent invasion to be nothing more than propaganda and hyperbole from the US/EU/NATO and their client regime in Kiev. It really shows how desperate and vulnerable the Kiev regime is if it has to constantly make shrill statements to scare it's Western backers into giving it more funds and support.

Until there is actual proof of an invasion we should be very careful about any 'news' coming out of the Ukraine, as both sides in that conflict have every reason to lie and distort the truth for their own ends.

[Geiseric]

This is fucking rediculous, did russia invade or didnt they? Its not rocket science, your opinion o n the situation is irrelevant. There is however proof about NATO funding Kiev, the preliminary before actual boots on the ground intervention, which has been planned since the Bush years. Anybody who is parroting the EU propaganda is either misguided or openly supporting NATO, thus is fitting of the label "petty bourgeois socialist".

[Geiseric]

Also none of this takes away from the fact that all military aid to Kiev needs to be cut off by all NATO countries. That is the only position which should be taken in the imperialist countries.

[Martin Luther]

I find the left often fails to be the counterbalance to the ruling class's self serving ideas and lies. Common stances we've seen over the last several years (authors on Counterpunch arguing for the left to support the overthrow of Gaddafi and Assad by western intervention) on the wars in Libya, Syria, and now Ukraine seem to show this well. Both sides are guilty of this, but the "anti-imps" are much less so.

Just my two cents.

[John Nada]

Have you seen the gear the rebels are walking around with these days? Compared to them, IS fighters look like low level street thugs, and they're from an organization with hundreds of millions of dollars in assets and an entire looted armory from two different armies. There's no way Russia is not involved, you're still crazy geis

The rebels seized some pretty large armories early on. Ukraine has some of the largest stockpiles of weapons and ammunition in the world. I think one of the armories seized was the largest in the world. A whole mine full of guns. Most of the ammo found from the rebels was made in Ukraine during the Soviet-era.

Basically since Ukraine was one of the hardest hit areas of WWII, the Soviets loaded them up with weapons for a future war with NATO. After the Soviet counter-revolution was finished, Ukraine became a source country for illegal weapons.

Then, after the US-backed coup, many in the military and police deserted, bringing their guns to the rebels.

[Rurkel]

The current leader of Donetsk Republic did say that he has current Russian soldiers serving in Donetsk's armed forces, although he also claimed that these soldiers are there on holiday on their own will (as opposed to being there on the orders of their superiors).

There are reports of soldier burials and hospitalizations in Russia. They're not "reported by Kiev", but by various liberal journalists inside Russia (the first one to report was a local Pskov council member from a small liberal party).


Also, the Donbass polls regarding Russian annexation was hardly the most transparent or trustworthy vote in history ... From what I hear, most people genuinely wanted for their lands to become Russian. They were rightfully afraid of the new government's neo-liberal economic course and its alliance with fascist elements. The very east of Ukraine is also closely tied to Russia economically.

They thought that Russia would just pull of a Crimea and bloodlessly annex these territories. They didn't expect the war, although after Ukrainian armed forces shelled the cities with a lot of civilian casualties, the populace of Dontesk and Lugansk are certainly no fans of Kiev, to put it mildly.