Anarchist Catalonia; An exercise in alternate history.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

So, I wanted to start a thread based around an improbable, if not virtually impossible idea of alternate history:

What if, somehow, the anarchists in Revolutionary Catalonia managed to beat back Fraco's forces?

Now, obviously this is a real stretch of the imagination, as the revolutionaries were exhausted and hopelessly outgunned by the time of the Catalonia Offensive. Managing to not only keep their territory but actively beat back the Nationalist forces would have taken either sheer luck or an Act of God.

But let's imagine, just for a moment, that they somehow succeeded.

What would have happened? Would the revolution have spread? Would their have been a direct confrontation with Soviet-backed militias? Would Franco and his fascist allies launch a second, even more savage offensive? Would the whole socioeconomic landscape of the world be completely changed?

Or would this have only been a temporary victory that would ultimately do nothing to alleviate Catalonia's inevitable demise?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

[Sasha]

Who knows, what would have happend if the attentat on Lenin would have been successful, what would have happend if Colombus sank, what would have happend if the so much thousand German soldier at the ieper would have killed the so much thousand English soldier instead of the other way around. Again who knows, alternate history is in the fiction section of the bookstores for a reason.

[The Feral Underclass]

So, I wanted to start a thread based around an improbable, if not virtually impossible idea of alternate history:

What if, somehow, the anarchists in Revolutionary Catalonia managed to beat back Fraco's forces?

Now, obviously this is a real stretch of the imagination, as the revolutionaries were exhausted and hopelessly outgunned by the time of the Catalonia Offensive. Managing to not only keep their territory but actively beat back the Nationalist forces would have taken either sheer luck or an Act of God.

But let's imagine, just for a moment, that they somehow succeeded.

What would have happened? Would the revolution have spread? Would their have been a direct confrontation with Soviet-backed militias? Would Franco and his fascist allies launch a second, even more savage offensive? Would the whole socioeconomic landscape of the world be completely changed?

Or would this have only been a temporary victory that would ultimately do nothing to alleviate Catalonia's inevitable demise?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

The defeat of the anarchists was more at the hands of the Stalinists than it was of the fascists. The Stalinist government ordered the militias to de-militarise, which many groups stupidly did. Even if the anarchists had held out and been able to maintain the front, and if the Republic had defeated Franco, the anarchists would then have had to defend themselves from the Republic.

[tuwix]

What if, somehow, the anarchists in Revolutionary Catalonia managed to beat back Fraco's forces?

Now, obviously this is a real stretch of the imagination, as the revolutionaries were exhausted and hopelessly outgunned by the time of the Catalonia Offensive. Managing to not only keep their territory but actively beat back the Nationalist forces would have taken either sheer luck or an Act of God.

But let's imagine, just for a moment, that they somehow succeeded.

What would have happened? Would the revolution have spread? Would their have been a direct confrontation with Soviet-backed militias? Would Franco and his fascist allies launch a second, even more savage offensive? Would the whole socioeconomic landscape of the world be completely changed?

Or would this have only been a temporary victory that would ultimately do nothing to alleviate Catalonia's inevitable demise?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts.


Probably there would be inevitable confrontation with forces backed by Stalin.
If they survived this attack, they'd face an international fascist intervention. There would be very difficult to defend themselves in such circumstances. But if they somehow won, there another in line would be imperialist intervention after the WWII.

To be honest, there won't be allowed to exist such area as Catalonia as territory free of state. It could and can be possible in small villages or mountainous territories or small isles. Marinaleda is an example of such small socialist experiment that was allowed to exist. But Catalonia is too big to become an example how socialism and anarchism can successfully work.

[RedWorker]

To be honest, there won't be allowed to exist such area as Catalonia as territory free of state. It could and can be possible in small villages or mountainous territories or small isles. Marinaleda is an example of such small socialist experiment that was allowed to exist. But Catalonia is too big to become an example how socialism and anarchism can successfully work.

Granted, there's left-wing politics in place in Marinaleda (could be described as "populist", a label I don't really like), but it's completely different from the Spanish Revolution.

[Luís Henrique]

Fraco's

Would that he was... but he was more like "forte".


Now, obviously this is a real stretch of the imagination, as the revolutionaries were exhausted and hopelessly outgunned by the time of the Catalonia Offensive. Managing to not only keep their territory but actively beat back the Nationalist forces would have taken either sheer luck or an Act of God.

But let's imagine, just for a moment, that they somehow succeeded.

What would have happened? Would the revolution have spread? Would their have been a direct confrontation with Soviet-backed militias? Would Franco and his fascist allies launch a second, even more savage offensive? Would the whole socioeconomic landscape of the world be completely changed?

Or would this have only been a temporary victory that would ultimately do nothing to alleviate Catalonia's inevitable demise?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

It seems quite certain to me that it would have been at most a temporary victory. But if the civil war in Spain lasted some time more, it would probably have been fused into the conflict we know as WWII.

Luís Henrique

[DDR]

It seems quite certain to me that it would have been at most a temporary victory. But if the civil war in Spain lasted some time more, it would probably have been fused into the conflict we know as WWII.

"Resistir es vencer" (To endure is to overcome) That was the motto of the PCE (Lister and co.), the FAI and the "radical" wing of the PSOE (Negrín), but the PSOE "moderates" (Casado) gave a coup in order to have an "honorable defeat".

[GiantMonkeyMan]

There's no real way of determining what would have happened. First you've got to figure out how the Republicans/Anarchists win and survive and that'd have an effect on the post-war conditions. Fascism would have been discredited and the workers' movement around the world would have a boost in energy but at the same the bourgeois states could have made a more concerted effort to respond to that and an even more vicious red scare could result, suppressing communist and anarchist organisations across the world. The bourgeois imperialist nations could have focused their attentions not on fascist Germany but on the USSR or maybe Hitler could have swept through France and then into Spain, resulting in thousands more communists and Jews being murdered.

This is basically where it gets into fictional speculation, even if you try and make the changes plausible. I'm a bit of a nerd so I often contemplate these things.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

It would have been a Spcialist utopia because there would be no commodity production and that's key.

[John Nada]

The defeat of the anarchists was more at the hands of the Stalinists than it was of the fascists. The Stalinist government ordered the militias to de-militarise, which many groups stupidly did. Even if the anarchists had held out and been able to maintain the front, and if the Republic had defeated Franco, the anarchists would then have had to defend themselves from the Republic.

Since this thread is basically a "what if" fantasy, what if the anarchist won. Then Stalin and the Soviet Union reconsidered their strategy for socialist construction and change course. With the combined strength of the Soviets and the Spaniards, they beat back fascism worldwide. Bam! Socialism in One Solar System is achieved by Stalin's death at 125 years old(space colonies).