Ukrainian National Army vs. Donbass peoples militia

[Babeufist]

Ukrainian National Army
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXw2oQtn74Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXw2oQtn74Q)
Donbass peoples militia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcBA7L0Rc5g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcBA7L0Rc5g)
your choice!
See also
http://borotba.org/the_white_book.html (http://borotba.org/the_white_book.html)
http://rusvesna.su/english/1408100468 (http://rusvesna.su/english/1408100468[/FONT])

[DOOM]

I choose communism.

[Hrafn]

Oh yes, what a lovely choice! Fascism, capitalism and imperialism - or fascism, capitalism and imperialism!

Yo, Babeufist, ever considered to stop being an useful idiot?

[Tim Cornelis]

I smell tankies.

Babeuf during the Great Betrayal (1914):

The German Army vs. the British army
Your choice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLl5nuJ-f4

[Mather]

None, the only side communists should ever support is that of the working class. The current conflict in the Ukraine is nothing more than a clash of rival imperialist interests (US/EU vs. Russian) and whichever side wins this conflict, the working class will lose and suffer the consequences.

[Geiseric]

None, the only side communists should ever support is that of the working class. The current conflict in the Ukraine is nothing more than a clash of rival imperialist interests (US/EU vs. Russian) and whichever side wins this conflict, the working class will lose and suffer the consequences.

Right but I still say the US should cut ALL trade and military aid to Kiev. That is revolutionary defeatism, the stance which should be taken by all communists living in NATO.

[Mather]

Right but I still say the US should cut ALL trade and military aid to Kiev. That is revolutionary defeatism, the stance which should be taken by all communists living in NATO.

I agree.

The main task for communists in NATO countries is to stop their states from carrying out any further interventions in the Ukraine and to resist the demands of their respective ruling classes to start a new cold war with Russia, a cold war that could very easily turn hot.

The same applies to communists in Russia with respect to their own ruling class and their imperialist interests in the Ukraine.

[Deep Sea]

Right but I still say the US should cut ALL trade and military aid to Kiev. That is revolutionary defeatism, the stance which should be taken by all communists living in NATO.

To quote Lenin:


During a reactionary war a revolutionary class cannot but desire the defeat of its government. This is axiomatic, and disputed only by conscious partisans or helpless satellites of the social-chauvinists. Among the former, for instance, is Semkovsky of the Organising Committee (No. 2 of its Izvestia), and among the latter, Trotsky and Bukvoyed,[/URL] and Kautsky in Germany.

[url=https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/jul/26.htm]The Defeat of One’s Own Government in the Imperialist War (https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/jul/26.htm#fwV21E134).

The only question is who are the conscious partisans and the helpless satellites amongst us.

[renalenin]

Excellent quote from Lenin. As yet Russia, which is only slightly less fascistic than Kiev, is not in the game on the ground. Our support must go to our comrades in the Peoples' Republic. If that means sabotaging NATO etcetera then so be it.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

[Hrafn]

Renalenin remains naught but a collaborator.

[Sasha]

Lol, "russia is not in the game on the ground", yeah right, a ragtag bunch of sepratists, adventurist volunteers and useful international idiots can go on their own in two weeks from "almost defeated" to "kiev needs to retreat its full army or face getting wiped out".
The willful self deception is strong here.

[Tim Cornelis]

Excellent quote from Lenin. As yet Russia, which is only slightly less fascistic than Kiev, is not in the game on the ground. Our support must go to our comrades in the Peoples' Republic. If that means sabotaging NATO etcetera then so be it.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

If your comrades are a bunch of extreme right ultranationalists you shouldn't be on this forum.

[Atsumari]

To quote Lenin:



The Defeat of One’s Own Government in the Imperialist War (https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/jul/26.htm).

The only question is who are the conscious partisans and the helpless satellites amongst us.
And then the Lord Lenin said...

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Defeat for NATO, the Ukraine, the reactionary Donbass government and Russia. I think the best we can hope for is the weakening of all elites and institutions behind this morass. If anything, that is the most significant lesson we can bring in from WWI or the Yugoslav war.


And then the Lord Lenin said...

What's sad is that people were actually killed for advocating different interpretations of Lenin's words than the line held by the State.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I tried to think of a funny way to express this but if you think arguing with people on the internet makes you a conscious partisan you are beyond parody anyhow.

[Geiseric]

Lol, "russia is not in the game on the ground", yeah right, a ragtag bunch of sepratists, adventurist volunteers and useful international idiots can go on their own in two weeks from "almost defeated" to "kiev needs to retreat its full army or face getting wiped out".
The willful self deception is strong here.

Can you explain why thousands of ukranian soldiers are deserting? Many of them are even joining the rebels.

[Geiseric]

I tried to think of a funny way to express this but if you think arguing with people on the internet makes you a conscious partisan you are beyond parody anyhow.

Its no less ridiculous than the idiots here spouting NATO propaganda.

[Sasha]

Can you explain why thousands of ukranian soldiers are deserting? Many of them are even joining the rebels.

If remotely true (and yes, i would like a actual source for that claim please) the obvious answer would be "because they are faced with an better trained and better equiped army that kicks their ass", you know, which has been the main reason for mass desertions since the invention of warfare.
Let me give you a small hint, without massive russian involvement the " rebels" would not be a "better trained and equiped army" than the ukranian national army able "to kick its ass"

[DOOM]

Its no less ridiculous than the idiots here spouting NATO propaganda.

It actually is. We are at least able to prove our points by rationality and facts, while you're dependent on rebel propaganda, hearsay and Kremlin-approved media.
But whatever, it's not the first time that anti-imperialism meets ex-soviet romanticism. It's really hilarious to see how "communists" are defending obvious reactionaries.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Its no less ridiculous than the idiots here spouting NATO propaganda.

What does this have to do with you and deep sea cosplaying as rebel partisans on a message board?

[renalenin]

Renalenin remains naught but a collaborator.

More than happy to collaborate with good comrades, my friend. Certainly not interested in supporting Putin. On this note, it is good to see that Saur-Mogila is retaken by Marxist partisans, but a shame the memorial was destroyed by the Kiev fascists.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

[John Nada]

Oh yes, what a lovely choice!Meh, Borotba seems alright. However, I do think their anti-imperialist united front will come back to bit them in the ass. But that's for them to decide. They probably know the situation on the ground better than anyone here. All I can do is oppose my own imperialist.
If remotely true (and yes, i would like a actual source for that claim please)Will do.
The presence of the ammunition from multiple Soviet factories that were busily manufacturing standard ammunition for Soviet rifles in the late Soviet period aligns neatly with historical factors at play in Ukraine. Put simply, these rounds, along with the samples from Luhansk, carried the headstamps one would expect in Ukrainian military arsenals and in the unregistered stockpiles from the Soviet collapse. The provenance of the stamps also aligns with rebel claims that much of their ammunition was captured from dispirited government troops, or was purchased from corrupt local police or sympathetic military officers.
Still, given Ukraine’s arms-trafficking circles, smuggling weapons into Ukraine might not be necessary. And a fuller read of Ukraine’s peculiar stockpiling history means that these cartridges cannot be pinned to any external foreign support by identification alone, and that local sources are more than plausible for much of what was fired at the edges of Slovyansk in May. If that was the case, Ukraine has been suffering from what its corrupt arms dealers once shipped. Its violence, tied to surplus arms far beyond what its military might ever need, and that might better have been destroyed long ago, is a reminder of the many excess stockpiles around the world, all of them latent firepower, waiting for their day. http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/07/24/in-ukraine-spent-cartridges-offer-clues-to-violence-fueled-by-soviet-surplus/
The willful self deception is strong here.Indeed.

[Sasha]

That is the source for the claim that "soldiers are deserting the ukrainian army by the thousands and joining the rebels"???!? :lol:

Look, no one is denying that quite a few soldiers deserted and that of those some joined the rebels, but claiming its "THOUSANDS!!!" does require a believable source.

[Sasha]

Note; the deployed, active personel of the ukranian armed forces is 50.000, if "thousands" deserted that means that at least 2 out of every 50 active deployed personel (so that includes maintinance, hospiks, drivers, sailors, air force etc etc) would have deserted already.
If we assume the majority of deserters are front line soldiers the ukrainian national army should have almost no soldiers left anymore if they left by the thousand.
Now tell me again, who is here spewing propaganda again... :rolleyes:

[Rurkel]

There had been reports of Ukrainian soldiers and members of their families protesting the deployment to the "ATO" front, and reports of Ukrainian soldiers crossing the border to Russia specifically in order to resign/give themselves up, although the latter may be done simply in order to save their own lives in a bad military position.

Dunno about "thousands", though.

[Tim Cornelis]

Note; the deployed, active personel of the ukranian armed forces is 50.000, if "thousands" deserted that means that at least 2 out of every 50 active deployed personel (so that includes maintinance, hospiks, drivers, sailors, air force etc etc) would have deserted already.
If we assume the majority of deserters are front line soldiers the ukrainian national army should have almost no soldiers left anymore if they left by the thousand.
Now tell me again, who is here spewing propaganda again... :rolleyes:

I don't follow this logic to be honest. As you say, if there were "thousands" of deserters this means there would be at least 2,000 (although to me, 'by the thousands' implies many more than that), and so of the 50,000 deployed troops, there'd be no more than 48,000 left. I don't see how that qualifies as "almost no soldiers left anymore". Plus, the deserted soldiers would of course be replaced by others.

[Sasha]

Just some wild estimations, say only two 3th of the armed forces are army (the rest being airforce, navy and borderpatrol, though I guess those borderpatrole on duty in the east could be among the deserters) and of those 2/3th again at best another 2/3th are actual soldiers (the rest being infrastructure) your ammount of soldiers being able to desert is diminishing rapidly.
Now obviously there could be thousands of deserters and hundreds of those could be joining the rebels but this would probably be mostly reserve members who could bring a rifel and a box of ammo at best and only their uniform at worst (dont know wheter you are allowed as a reservist to keep your weapon at home like in switserland or Israel).
But its all very moot, I was just pointing out the hilarity of Geiseric accusing us of parroting propaganda while he himself on the same page makes a unsubstantiated claim that if not pulled out of his own arse is obviously lifted straight out of some propaganda piece.

Though it should come as no suprise that the cosplayers and histrionic reanactments society members here still think standing armies and warfare in the 21st century involve the amounts of conscripts of the Great Patriotic War tm.

[John Nada]

That is the source for the claim that "soldiers are deserting the ukrainian army by the thousands and joining the rebels"???!? :lol:

Look, no one is denying that quite a few soldiers deserted and that of those some joined the rebels, but claiming its "THOUSANDS!!!" does require a believable source.


Note; the deployed, active personel of the ukranian armed forces is 50.000, if "thousands" deserted that means that at least 2 out of every 50 active deployed personel (so that includes maintinance, hospiks, drivers, sailors, air force etc etc) would have deserted already. If we assume the majority of deserters are front line soldiers the ukrainian national army should have almost no soldiers left anymore if they left by the thousand. Now tell me again, who is here spewing propaganda again...:rolleyes:http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_26/Over-15-000-Ukrainian-servicemen-in-Crimea-pass-to-Russian-military-service-7010/ Yeah, I know, I know, propaganda :unsure:. http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2014/03/24/Ukraine-negotiating-troop-withdrawal-from-Crimea/5181395677491/ This is in Crimea, where I don't depute direct Russian imperialism. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-hundreds-ukraine-troops-defect-russia-military-drills-border/

I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that a lot of the Ukraine military and police deserted.

I just don't know what to believe. The coverage of this war reminds me of the run up to the Iraq war. For example, the news reports of the Odessa massacre just seemed totally different from the videos of it. I just think it's foolish to believe anything from either side. I fear that claiming that ALL the rebels are just Russian troops in disguise just buys into the Ukrainian government's chauvinist narrative. Just an excuse not to have a peace agreement with the rebels.

[Hrafn]

More than happy to collaborate with good comrades, my friend. Certainly not interested in supporting Putin. On this note, it is good to see that Saur-Mogila is retaken by Marxist partisans, but a shame the memorial was destroyed by the Kiev fascists.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

Marxist partisans? Christ, you're truly delusional.

[Geiseric]

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/07/catastrophic-desertions-and-losses-in.html?m=1

An official report from the Ukranian state police. Sasha will eat his own words, once and for all, about Ukraine. Over 3000 desertions by July 14th. The fact of the matter is that unlike Israeli soldiers, who are brainwashed by Goebbels esque propaganda, the ukranian soldiers have a shred of humanity about massacring defenseless civilians alongside with neo nazis. The rebels are supported by most of Donetsk, otherwise this would be over.

[Sasha]

I never said thousands was impossible, i just guarantee you its in majority reservists who failed to register when they where called uppon (not strange if several hundreds of thousands have fled, many of them across the border) it still doesn't explain in any way the military successes of the "rebels"
The only explaination is massive Russian involvement, just like they did in georgia and the Crimea

[Hrafn]

Geis, there is a difference between "desertion" and "defection".

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Its too bad they combine the statistics for the army/national guard. I'm under the impression that the national guard is the volunteer force they pulled together from the maiden protesters, it would be interesting to see if they or the army are more prone to desertion.

I think it's unusual to attribute this to 'humanity' on the part of the soldiers, its just as likely they don't want to die and the Ukrainian government is in enough of a mess that they might be able to get away with it. The IDF comparison was also not a good one and honestly this is an odd discussion to bring it up in.

[Sasha]

yeah, speaking about that;


The fact of the matter is that unlike Israeli soldiers, who are brainwashed by Goebbels esque propaganda.

a. why always the need to inject the nazi's in each and any mention of the situation in Palestine/Israel, no matter how casual? funny that...

b. Israel has one of the higest rates of draft objectors in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refusal_to_serve_in_the_IDF
and even among the (formerly) active service personnel there is a sizable minority of highly critical and sometimes all out activist opposition: http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

c. you are such a tool.

[Geiseric]

I didnt say "defected," I said they are leaving the army due to the barbarity of the war their government started, egged on by NATO.

[Hrafn]

Can you explain why thousands of ukranian soldiers are deserting? Many of them are even joining the rebels.

You said this.

[RedWorker]

1949 soviet army vs usa army whats your fav

[Durruti's friend]

1949 soviet army vs usa army whats your fav
Neither?

[Luís Henrique]

I agree.

The main task for communists in NATO countries is to stop their states from carrying out any further interventions in the Ukraine and to resist the demands of their respective ruling classes to start a new cold war with Russia, a cold war that could very easily turn hot.

The same applies to communists in Russia with respect to their own ruling class and their imperialist interests in the Ukraine.

That. And this means workers on each side of the divide opposing their States' own military efforts. Not idolising or misrepresenting the opposite side.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

I didnt say "defected," I said they are leaving the army due to the barbarity of the war their government started, egged on by NATO.

So what are those deserters doing? Building up a mass movement to topple Kiev's government, together with Ukrainian workers?

I frankly don't think so.

But... if so, and if they succeed, they are probably on their way to clash against an alliance between Russia and NATO once Kiev's government is history.

Luís Henrique

[cyu]

http://www.china.org.cn/video/2014-08/26/content_33345455.htm

French nationals have joined the ranks of anti-government forces.

This is the first wave of French fighters in eastern Ukraine. There are four of them-with more on the way.

"I served for five years with the paratroopers-in the 3rd Marine Infantry Parachute Regiment. It is one of the elite regiments of the French Army are preparing the arrival of other French volunteers and even also volunteers from Serbia"

"In France, Russia is presented as the aggressor. But we know very well in the alternative media that all the aggression was coming from Kiev against the population of the Donbass region"

"I had the opportunity to talk with some Ukrainian soldiers. What I have seen is soldiers who are completely demoralised, who know this is not an anti-terrorist operation, or to maintain order here, but that it is a real war. They confessed themselves that they did not want to make war at all."

[renalenin]

Marxist partisans? Christ, you're truly delusional.

You may be right. It is all to easy to be fooled by the sketchy information from the web. But I have seen a few pictures and judging from the appearance of the partisans and their banners, flags, etc I am reminded of things I heard from old relatives who were in the International Brigades in Spain. Of course they are all long dead now but there is something about the contrast between the images of the partisans and the images of the Kiev forces which suggests the partisans may be the real thing. Excuse me for lacking your obviously superior information and discernment.

https://www.facebook.com/586334568056396/photos/pcb.795738443782673/795736600449524/?type=1&theater
https://www.facebook.com/586334568056396/photos/pcb.795738443782673/795736600449524/?type=1&theater

[Hrafn]

That photo you posted contains only nationalist imagery.

For every supposedly left-wing photo you find, I can find more, with Fascist symbolism.

[Lord Testicles]

https://www.facebook.com/586334568056396/photos/pcb.795738443782673/795736600449524/?type=1&theater
https://www.facebook.com/586334568056396/photos/pcb.795738443782673/795736600449524/?type=1&theater

That photo looks like it's from some historical reenactment of WW2. What about it is supposed to make me believe that it's from the current Ukrainian conflict?

[Hrafn]

That photo looks like it's from some historical reenactment of WW2. What about it is supposed to make me believe that it's from the current Ukrainian conflict?

The top flag, barely visible, is that of the Donetsk People's Republic, a Fascist junta and Russian puppet. The other banners include one I can't see, the flag of the USSR and the Soviet Navy, and the current naval ensign of the Russian Navy, a nationalist symbol found frequently during Crimea's annexation. Remember: The New Russian state is built by "National Bolsheviks".

[Geiseric]

The top flag, barely visible, is that of the Donetsk People's Republic, a Fascist junta and Russian puppet. The other banners include one I can't see, the flag of the USSR and the Soviet Navy, and the current naval ensign of the Russian Navy, a nationalist symbol found frequently during Crimea's annexation. Remember: The New Russian state is built by "National Bolsheviks".

There are some fascists involved at this point but the sad part is even they are supported more han the ukranian Government, the evidence being the success of the rebels counter offensivea and the mass desertions from the UNA. Also the damage done by the UNA on the civilian population, resulting in a mass exodus has alot to do with it since only Ukranian fascists were willing to bomb Donetsk and Luhansk as they did.

I think its unfair to call all of the rebels fascist though, they might be as politically divided as the military. This could change for the worse, if an independent working-class political party like Borotba doesnt come to the fore, despite their leadership being murdered in cold blood. Also the Odessa Massacre created a sharp division in the country which I dont think can be repaired.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

There are fascists on both sides exploiting the struggle as a way to boost their nationalist message. Neither Putin nor Poroshenko are "fascist", but they are happy to play with fire by flirting with such groups for geopolitical gain.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Yes it seems both of them have found something useful for their respective fascist groups to do: kill each other off.

[adipocere]

...the Donetsk People's Republic, a Fascist junta and Russian puppet.
:lol:
Tone it down Agent Smith, you're gonna blow your cover.

[Geiseric]

It is worth noting that Kievs army is dependent on fascists for their vanguard, since they started the offensive, wheras some of the rebels turned to fascsts solely for training.

[Thirsty Crow]

It is worth noting that Kievs army is dependent on fascists for their vanguard, since they started the offensive, wheras some of the rebels turned to fascsts solely for training.Why is that worth noting?

[adipocere]

It is worth noting that Kievs army is dependent on fascists for their vanguard, since they started the offensive, wheras some of the rebels turned to fascsts solely for training.
La La La! Shutup!
Fascist Where's Waldo is no fun if he's everywhere. I mean, seriously - what kind of tankie killjoy wants to dwell on silliness (http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1365142/lenin-statue.png) like (http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmqPkazIUAAGr_O.jpg:medium) this (http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Neo-Nazi-750x500.jpg) when we can devote pages to talking about some pic of some guy and a flag you can sorta see and a blog post over here that kinda indicates the possibility, oh and here's a bigoted quote from some jackass in Crimea so bam RUSSIAN FASCISM - the only kind truly worthy of condemnation - however vague.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

is shilling for the government part of your visa requirements adipocere?

[Slavic]

It is worth noting that Kievs army is dependent on fascists for their vanguard, since they started the offensive, wheras some of the rebels turned to fascsts solely for training.

If by turned to fascists for training you mean gave military and political authority to fascists, then yes.

What is the difference between military whom's state was help installed by a fascist vanguard, and a movement whom's leaderes are fascists.

Absolutely fucking nothing. Fascists leading poor workers on one side and fascists leading poor worker on another side.

[Hrafn]

The political entity that is the Donetsk People's Republic is a fascist junta and a Russian puppet. Anyone who believes otherwise is either an idiot or a collaborator.

[Scheveningen]

oh and here's a bigoted quote from some jackass in Crimea so bam RUSSIAN FASCISM The only 'proof' I have seen so far of Novorossiya insurgents being 'Marxist partisans' or 'anti-fascists' is that they like Lenin statues, use Soviet symbols and that their opponents include neo-Nazi paramilitaries.

All taken out of context.
That photo you posted contains only nationalist imagery. Indeed. Russian nationalist/far-right groups (or a majority in the KPRF, in fact) rely on Soviet imagery as a national symbol, not as a working-class symbol.
It carries memories of a time when their country, Russia, was powerful and influential. Of course, they don't really care about the soviets or communism: that the flag of Novorossiya is a Russian Imperial flag should be sufficient to prove that. Any symbol of Russian geopolitical power and glory works well.
That photo looks like it's from some historical reenactment of WW2. What about it is supposed to make me believe that it's from the current Ukrainian conflict? That's not casual. It aspires to be a re-enactment of WWII, because the Great Patriotic War and the fight against Nazis have become part of the contemporary nationalist narrative in Russia.

[renalenin]

That photo looks like it's from some historical reenactment of WW2. What about it is supposed to make me believe that it's from the current Ukrainian conflict?

Probably the shattered stump of all that remains of the well known and well loved monument, comrade.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

[Hrafn]

You continue to entertain.

[Ocean Seal]

And so the tragedy of revleft continues to baffle me. Why are so many threads structured in this manner?
1.)Someone throws out a line: support random "anti-imperialist" group that no one knows anything about.
2.) Everyone throws out some useless cliche about "support workers"
3.) Some good ideas get buried under endless fighting and accusations of collaborating with imperialists/fascists and the like.

But we should still have the discussion hopefully with some more ideas like a practical depiction of the left. We should not endorse sanctions or military aid to any country, and practically speaking that's all we can do.

That being said whether or not you want to support Russian rebels or tacitly support Ukrainian nationalists is your own business. There is no "leftist" position to take being that there is no material action you can take.

[John Nada]

Yeah, I was think, what does a victory for either the government or the rebels mean? Irrelevant or bad. Is there a least worse? Or is the Ukrainian proletariat pretty much screwed either way?

Also, I'd like to know who to support in South Sudan and Central African Republic? Which side's fascist?

[Hrafn]

Also, I'd like to know who to support in South Sudan and Central African Republic? Which side's fascist?

Is this a serious question?

[Lord Testicles]

Probably the shattered stump of all that remains of the well known and well loved monument, comrade.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

What "well known and well loved monument" would that be?

Please, don't call me comrade.

[John Nada]

Is this a serious question?No, though it's hard to tell on the internet sometimes. It's just an example of conflicts where imperialism is involved, and the peasantry and proletariat have no one on their side, AFAIK.
Probably the shattered stump of all that remains of the well known and well loved monument, comrade.
What "well known and well loved monument" would that be?Yeah, what monument is it?

In the 1936 and 1977 Soviet constitution there were sections declaring it the duty of Soviet citizens to defend monuments. It was a popular demand during debates about the '36 constitution.
ARTICLE 131. It is the duty of every citizen of the U.S.S.R. to safeguard and strengthen public, socialist property as the sacred and inviolable foundation of the Soviet system, as the source of the wealth and might of the country, as the source of the prosperous and cultured life of all the working people.

Persons committing offenses against public, socialist property are enemies of the people.
Article 68. Concern for the preservation of historical monuments and other cultural values is a duty and obligation of citizens of the USSR.Sources: http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/36cons04.html#chap10 http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/77cons02.html

I'm not sure of the significance(or lack thereof) of this.

[Scheveningen]

That being said whether or not you want to support Russian rebels or tacitly support Ukrainian nationalists is your own business.I have seen no-one here supporting Ukrainian nationalists.

On the other hand, plenty of people confuse 'leftism' with a weird Soviet roleplay/hammer and sickle fetish, and spend their time and even campaign to support causes and groups which only end up hurting 'the Left'.
A misunderstanding that needs to be addressed.

[John Nada]

I have seen no-one here supporting Ukrainian nationalists.

On the other hand, plenty of people confuse 'leftism' with a weird Soviet roleplay/hammer and sickle fetish, and spend their time and even campaign to support causes and groups which only end up hurting 'the Left'.
A misunderstanding that needs to be addressed.

And it will, when Putin restores the Soviet Union!:ohmy:
Talking about Vladimir Putin, Yatseniuk said that "his goal is to take the entire Ukraine. He cannot cope with an idea that Ukraine would be a part of big EU family. He wants to restore the Soviet Union."http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/09/ukraine-pm-putin-wants-restore-ussr-201491384837451604.html However, this is contradicted by Putin's remarks about Russians who oppose their own imperialist.
Vladimir Putin accused a part of the non-parliamentary opposition of “rocking the country” and warned of the possible dire consequences of such behavior. “The Bolsheviks openly wished their motherland be defeated in the First World War. When heroic soldiers and officers were shedding blood at the fronts of WWI some people were rocking Russia from the inside and this rocking caused the country to engineer its own defeat. It was a nonsense, a delirium, but it did happen. It was a betrayal of national interests,” Putin told the young activists. “Such people exist in our country today. Unfortunately no society can do without them,” the President added. http://rt.com/politics/183708-putin-opposition-bolsheviks-seliger/

Does this mean Putin's a Menshevik? :laugh: He's unwittingly flattered the opposition!

My opinion is to "oppose our own imperialists." Neither Russia nor the US/EU should keep fanning the flames of war. Neither one will support anything remotely progressive. I think a cease-fire is the best possible outcome, can't think of anything else better.

[renalenin]

What "well known and well loved monument" would that be?

Please, don't call me comrade.

Oh, just noticed your reply, friend. It is (was) the obelisk erected to the memory of victims of Nazi aggression last time they were there, at Saur Mogila in East Ukraine. So sorry you do not want to be a comrade.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

[Hrafn]

I'm sorry that Renalenin has made it impossible to be his comrade, through his collaborationist stances.

[Sasha]

i think my oppinion on the conflict is pretty wel known and that i have no love for the mercs and usefull idiots fighting a bullshit "rebellion" but credit where credit is due, this is one badass motherfucker (or a complete psychopath more likely):

K9k05CbXmqE

[Lord Testicles]

Oh, just noticed your reply, friend. It is (was) the obelisk erected to the memory of victims of Nazi aggression last time they were there, at Saur Mogila in East Ukraine. So sorry you do not want to be a comrade.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

Thanks.

Don't you think calling someone you don't know a "comrade" over the internet cheapens the word somewhat? That's without mentioning the idea that you probably sound like a walking, talking anachronism when you do use it.

[renalenin]

Thanks.

Don't you think calling someone you don't know a "comrade" over the internet cheapens the word somewhat? That's without mentioning the idea that you probably sound like a walking, talking anachronism when you do use it.

That is OK if you think so. I personally like it because it connects us as part of an old and very epic class struggle. I had assumed when I joined rev left that from the name and logo of the newsgroup it was for comrades. My bad perhaps?

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

[falce e martello]

Luhansk pro-Russian militant ‘republic’ criminalizes homosexuality


khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1412628810 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1412628810)

[cyu]

Donetsk and Lugansk: Before-After civil war

As a result of military operations, which are conducted in the late spring in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, significantly affected the region's infrastructure. According to UN estimates, made ​​in September, the fighting infrastructure Donetsk and Lugansk received damages totaling $ 440 million. A report by noted that during the conflict have been damaged more than 2,000 objects, including 1,230 private houses, 659 public buildings and 178 offices. In Donetsk stopped work more than 70% of enterprises, whose work will be difficult to resume. Urban residents have problems with water and electricity.

http://johnshadowrs.deviantart.com/art/Donetsk-and-Lugansk-Before-After-civil-war-489017945

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2014/290/3/f/donetsk_and_lugansk__before_after_civil_war_by_joh nshadowrs-d835cnt.jpg

[ckaihatsu]

News Updates from CLG
02 February 2017
http://www.legitgov.org/
All links are here:
http://www.legitgov.org/#breaking_news

Previous editions: Trump rips up controversial TPP 'trade' deal and says getting out is 'a great thing for the American worker'

Russia's upper house speaker says Kiev will inevitably stand trial for war in Donbass (http://tass.com/politics/928458) | 01 Feb 2017 | Russia's Federation Council Speaker Valentina Matviyenko has said she has no doubt that the Ukrainian authorities will face trial for the war in Donbass. "I have no doubt that sooner or later there will be trial over the people who are at war in Donbass with their own people," Matviyenko said. The images provided by journalists these days will serve as evidence of crimes committed by Ukraine's forces and people who gave the orders, she said.