Liberalism, social democracy etc.

[CommunistKid]

what are your views/ arguments against more center leftists like liberals and social democrats?

[edwad]

bandaids don't help. subduing revolutionary tendencies and the possibility for real change is counterproductive and keeps capitalism around which is an inherently shitty system. communism rules. etc

[Slavic]

Im honestly unsure on how to proceed. It basically comes down to; does an easier life with more free time lead one to develop revolutionary tendencies, or does a hard life where you have no free time lead one to develop revolutionary tendencies.

While I know that socialist movements can dissolve into a single issue piecemeal gains via the democratic process. And these single issue gains are not revolutionary but can contribute to a social democratic society. That being said, I'd rather live in a more "benevolent social democracy" as opposed to a more laissez faire social arrangement.

While I would prefer the one over the other, I do not know if single issue gains and social democracies neuter socialist movements completely, or just delay them.

I like the boot stomping on my face to have soft soles and glitter, as opposed to steel tipped and studded.

[tuwix]

what are your views/ arguments against more center leftists like liberals and social democrats?

In Europe, liberals have other meaning. They are understood as another shade of the free market religion followers having nothing to do with leftist. They recognize themselves as rather right-wingers.
But so called social-democrats are just naive people. They're frequently against neoliberalism, but they naively think that capitalism can be successfully reformed...

[blake 3:17]

A useful distinction in terms of the types you seem to be talking about are genuine reformists as opposed to reformists without reforms. Some moderate leftists are primarily motivated by a drive for social justice -- and we can have disagreements on how that will happen -- while others do want to derail movements into entirely useless dead ends. Spotting the difference and knowing how to negotiate these isn't easy.

[Red Economist]

I've never shaken off the desire to be a reformist for two reasons,

i) I'm middle class and I know it and admittedly still have something to loose from full scale socialism.
ii) social democracy sounds better than being screwed under the foot of global capitalism or a potentially totalitarian system.

However, the first one is one I'm a little suspicious of in the long term- as the middle class is in serious trouble, and is being asset stripped by banks, energy companies, loan sharks, etc, so the future may easily be pretty grim. And the idea that if I wish hard enough, I can get anything I want, is just crazy. If there's no middle class, there won't be capitalism.

But regardless of my opinion on whether capitalism has a future, neoliberalism as a form of capitalism is so reactionary that Gordon Gekko's "Greed is Good" is positively utopian. Today it's more like "Greed is inevitable, so shut the f**k up and get back to work or I'll take the food right out of your mouth because you didn't pay me enough for it the first time. And if you even think the word 'unionize', there's some nice cells in private prisons waiting for you. That's thought crime- you're only free to think what we tell you, you extremist b*****d!".

It is possible the class divide means they just can't see what there doing and are ideologically blind [and that's me trying to be sympathetic]- but whatever their intentions, you just cannot negotiate with these people. If someone gets hurt- so long as it's not them- they don't give a sh*t.

Then there's climate change- and the almost total 'inaction' there because it pays to do nothing. saving the world is so expensive and the ruling class thinks "why bother? it's only the future of the human race- it's there problem. People are supposed to look out for themselves- let's leave it to the younger generation." This one pushes me further into the red every time as you know it's not going to have a happy ending. :mad:

But honestly, it's an on-going debate for me. I wouldn't mind living in a social democratic system; but the state is so much in bed with corporations it's just not an option. It's the way that the ruling class behaves that just keeps pissing me off, no matter what the 'democratic' pretensions of the system are.

[Ferret the Anarchist]

Social democrats/liberals?

Naive, annoying, counterproductive and counter-revolutionary. Not only do the majority of them defend capitalism, they completely misuse the term "socialism" and are typically middle class white teenage hipsters.