Hamas Claims Responsibility for Kidnapping, Murder of Israeli Teenagers in June

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Woah


Hamas Claims Responsibility for Kidnapping, Murder of Israeli Teenagers in June

One of the key precipitating events in the current war between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza was the June kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank. Israel blamed Hamas for the killings, and the subsequent crackdown on the group may have provoked the rocket fire that set off Israel's airstrikes and ground invasion. It had remained an open question whether the kidnapping and murder had been ordered by Hamas' leadership or was the act of a rogue cell. Wednesday, though, a "a top Hamas official" living in Turkey claimed the killings were an organized Hamas operation. From Haaretz:

video captured during the conference shows Salach Al-Aruri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16. ..."The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.

Meanwhile, in Gaza, Israeli airstrikes killed three senior Hamas military commanders early this morning. The three men were mourned and buried by what the New York Times describes as a crowd of approximately 10,000 people.

slate article link (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/08/21/hamas_israeli_teen_kidnapping_militant_group_claim s_responsibility.html)

[khad]

One random "official" who lives in Turkey is probably not the official spokesperson of the party. Just sayin'.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

One random "official" who lives in Turkey is probably not the official spokesperson of the party. Just sayin'.

True but the source reporting this is significant in itself and assuming this is true, it's pretty fucked.

[khad]

True but the source reporting this is significant in itself and assuming this is true, it's pretty fucked.
Ok, this is a random US official claiming that 9/11 was an inside job.
daNr_TrBw6E

[blake 3:17]

What a load of BS.

Portions of the Hamas organization have been vague about the responsibility for the kidnappings because the kidnappings were popular with sections of their base and Fatah's co-operation with the Israeli state were perceived as weak and stupid.

This is very much like the Israeli tactic of neither confirming or denying assassinations. It potentially makes one seem more powerful.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

True but the source reporting this is significant in itself and assuming this is true, it's pretty fucked.

The source is not necessarily the most reliable one for this information, however. He is not a military commander or spokesperson on the ground in Gaza or the West Bank, so if Hamas really wanted to claim responsibility they would have done so through someone else. The theory that Hamas was behind it has been around since the kidnapping, so it isn't particularly groundbreaking as a possibility.


Ok, this is a random US official claiming that 9/11 was an inside job.
daNr_TrBw6E

Good point, but last time I talked with Vox about this, she was sympathetic to the "inside job" conspiracy theory so perhaps that isn't the best line of debate to take.

[Creative Destruction]

True but the source reporting this is significant in itself and assuming this is true, it's pretty fucked.

It contradicts what Hamas and Israel have both officially said in the last few months. It's certainly possible that Hamas funded and condoned this, but this guy "admitting" that they did it doesn't make that any clearer than when all this shit started.

[PhoenixAsh]

Well...if true....this totally justifies the ground war and bombings. I mean...we can all remember the time when the US started al out military operations against Holland when Natalie Holloway was killed by Joran vd Sloot. Surely the Dutch needed to be collectively punished.

I find full out war is an entirely proper response to murder and criminal activity.

[PhoenixAsh]

Well...if true....this totally justifies the ground war and bombings. I mean...we can all remember the time when the US started al out military operations against Holland when Natalie Holloway was killed by Joran vd Sloot. Surely the Dutch needed to be collectively punished.

I find full out war is an entirely proper response to murder and criminal activity.

[Sasha]

It contradicts what Hamas and Israel have both officially said in the last few months. It's certainly possible that Hamas funded and condoned this, but this guy "admitting" that they did it doesn't make that any clearer than when all this shit started.

Ehm, it has been pretty clear from the start that the action was carried out my Hamas involved people, the question was wheter it was a sanctioned action or a rogue action by a, already more often working against instructions of the Hamas leadership, mob related outfit. The latter seems to have been the case still. That now some guy brags about it is no different than a drunk Provo-IRA member boasting in the pub about an real-ira bomb.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Ok, this is a random US official claiming that 9/11 was an inside job.
daNr_TrBw6E

Ok? I happen to think it was, so this really doesn't prove much to me really. I also don't understand why everyone is getting all pissy. You believe other stories with so little evidence, why not this one? Dief walked on water! He shit sold gold Tiffany cuff links and mana from the heavens. Hamas is without sin, they didn't bring the Israhell down upon their own people with bullshit tactics, noooooooooooo.

[Sasha]

also, according to people who speak arabic he says:

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't, There are those who say that it was your brothers in the al-Qassam Brigades, who carried it out for the sake of al-Qassam members who are in jails and who sit in a hunger strike"

now i cant confirm this obviously as i dont speak arabic myself but if true that doesnt sound like a claim of responsibility but more a juxtaposition of two prevalent theories.

[PhoenixAsh]

The truth of the stort is entirely irrelevant in respect to the legitimization of Israeli actions

[Creative Destruction]

Ehm, it has been pretty clear from the start that the action was carried out my Hamas involved people, the question was wheter it was a sanctioned action or a rogue action by a, already more often working against instructions of the Hamas leadership, mob related outfit. The latter seems to have been the case still. That now some guy brags about it is no different than a drunk Provo-IRA member boasting in the pub about an real-ira bomb.

Okay, sure. I never said that it wasn't carried out by Hamas members. What I said was that it was unclear whether Hamas sanctioned and condoned this. To add onto that comment, it doesn't seem likely considering Hamas and Israel both said that Hamas leadership wasn't involved.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

The truth of the stort is entirely irrelevant in respect to the legitimization of Israeli actions

No one said ANYTHING about justifying more this about who threw the rock that broke the window. No, the old man wasn't justified in beating you with his cane but you were the one who threw the rock which landed you and your friends being beaten. Notice how operations like Black September involved ZERO Palestinian civilians.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Okay, sure. I never said that it wasn't carried out by Hamas members. What I said was that it was unclear whether Hamas sanctioned and condoned this. To add onto that comment, it doesn't seem likely considering Hamas and Israel both said that Hamas leadership wasn't involved.

I heard that Hamas issues a song which celebrated the event (which I can find I'll post). Also, I also remember hearing about celebrations and such taking place and sweets being handed out in celebration of the event.

[PhoenixAsh]

Maybe I should have expressed myself more clearly.

The death of these boys has nothing to do with the actions of Israel. It is a mere justification of the continuation of Israeli policy. It doesn't matter at all. If not for this incident it would have been another incident the Israelies would have used.

The way you bring this in context of other arguments is like: see! They did it.

In that sense it perpetuates and plays into the narrative that we have a state simply overreacting instead of executing and continuing their existing policy of colonization and domination.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

The current round of bombing has more to do with the unity government than it does with those murders anyhow.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Maybe I should have expressed myself more clearly.

The death of these boys has nothing to do with the actions of Israel. It is a mere justification of the continuation of Israeli policy. It doesn't matter at all. If not for this incident it would have been another incident the Israelies would have used.

The way you bring this in context of other arguments is like: see! They did it.

How? This is your and others own reading, which I can't help. I also think it's ridiculous how my posts on this issue are being treated. Further, it does matter in the sense of being objective and is of importance of historical accuracy and context.


In that sense it perpetuates and plays into the narrative that we have a state simply overreacting instead of executing and continuing their existing policy of colonization and domination.

Because this can't be a simple critic of contemporary Palestinian resistance tactics. This can't happen. This can't e how I prefer and have what should be now an obvious bias for groups like the BSO, PLO and others. This can't be how it's fucked to base operations in densely populated civilian areas including hospitals, schools, masjid and so on. This is not about playing into some narrative or excusing Israhelli (since I apparently have to talk like this to make even more clear my positions) occupation or colonization efforts; because it goes without saying it's morally and ethically abhorrent. I fail to see how trying to remain objective and critical on my part means any of the crap tht has been thrown my way.

[Lord Testicles]

Hamas really should try harder. The kidnapping and murder of three teenagers is nothing compared to what Israel is doing.

[Hit The North]

I fail to see how trying to remain objective and critical on my part means any of the crap tht has been thrown my way.

Perhaps it's because your position does not appear objective or critical but an echo of the dominant, pro-Israeli narrative?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Perhaps it's because your position does not appear objective or critical but an echo of the dominant, pro-Israeli narrative?

How? You people keep saying this but I fail to see how other than what I'm saying is being sourced and put out by mainstream media outlets.

You peoples make me feel like Inigo Montoya.

[Hit The North]

How? You people keep saying this but I fail to see how other than what I'm saying is being sourced and put out by mainstream media outlets. You peoples make me feel like Inigo Montoya.

The dominant narrative places the blame for Israeli attacks at the door of Hamas - its rocket launches, the kidnap of the Israeli teenagers - it panders to the myth of Hamas using human shields in an attempt to absolve Israel from its crimes against unarmed civilians - it places the current machinations between the two sides at the centre of its explanation and relegates the history and wider context of continuing Israeli expansion to a barely visible background.

From this thread, at least, you appear to share the same narrative orientation.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

The dominant narrative places the blame for Israeli attacks at the door of Hamas - its rocket launches, the kidnap of the Israeli teenagers - it panders to the myth of Hamas using human shields in an attempt to absolve Israel from its crimes against unarmed civilians - it places the current machinations between the two sides at the centre of its explanation and relegates the history and wider context of continuing Israeli expansion to a barely visible background.

From this thread, at least, you appear to share the same narrative orientation.

I also posted an article which in a nutshell was about how both the Israeli state and Hamas are being cited by the UN, Palestinian human rights groups, etc. for war crimes and human rights abuses. Trying to determine the legitimacy of claims which state Hamas is using human shields and other such things above doesn't equate to excusing Israeli war crimes during the war against Gaza. More it's the effort to live in this thing we call 'reality.' But lemme guess said Palestinian human rights group "talking shit," on precious Hamas is really just 'Palestinian spies for Israel' justifying Zionist occupation because of course, that makes total sense.

[Creative Destruction]

I heard that Hamas issues a song which celebrated the event (which I can find I'll post). Also, I also remember hearing about celebrations and such taking place and sweets being handed out in celebration of the event.

I heard that, too. That's not proof of institutional complicity on the part of Hamas, though.

[PhoenixAsh]

Because this can't be a simple critic of contemporary Palestinian resistance tactics. This can't happen. This can't e how I prefer and have what should be now an obvious bias for groups like the BSO, PLO and others. This can't be how it's fucked to base operations in densely populated civilian areas including hospitals, schools, masjid and so on. This is not about playing into some narrative or excusing Israhelli (since I apparently have to talk like this to make even more clear my positions) occupation or colonization efforts; because it goes without saying it's morally and ethically abhorrent. I fail to see how trying to remain objective and critical on my part means any of the crap tht has been thrown my way.

I will reply especially to the bolded part.

In the current popular narrative "objective and critical" actually means that we place the conflict in a context of two sides with an equal responsibility and blame and perpetuates the myth that the conflict is merely a cycle perpetuated by two equal entities who both "just need to chill" in order to find a solution.

This focus on being "objective and critical" actually says: "well, maybe the Israelies are overreacting, but they actually have a legitimate cause". It downplays, and in effect completely disregards, the persistent expansionist, racist and colonialist policy of Israel with regards to the Palestinians which has existed for decades and which, in fact, created and relies on the perpetuation and expansion of the current conflict.

Being "objective and critical" denies context and historic development and is actually akin to creating a narrative which is kind of like what the police and state are doing in Ferguson.


They shot an unarmed black man. On the day of releasing the name of the officed involved they released footage of the same black man seemingly involved in robbing a store a few months earlier. In doing so they not only (try to) create a non-existant link between the robbery and the shooting of an unarmed black man in order to diminish the act itself but also in order to white wash the structural racist attitude of a heavilly white police force against non-white inhabitants and the current development of increasingly aggressive police tactics.

So being "objective and critical" actually means assigning equal blame where there is no equal blame.

Being objective and critical in a revolutionary sense means you acknowledge the fact that the most prominent fighting parties are both bourgeois but in which one created the material conditions for the crisis to develop through its colonialist and racist policies of subjugation and domination. And acknowledging that, yeah...sure...Hamas is fucked up...but Hamas exists BECAUSE of the situation created by Israeli politics and the acts of Hamas can NOT be seen detached from this.

This is, as HTN excellently explained, the main reason why I am reading your posts as a defence of Israel and why I see your posts in this thread as trying to say: "Aha...so they did it". Rather than merely expressing that Hamas members were responsible.


It is also ironic that you think Black September's Munich massacre did NOT result in Israeli killing civilians...because Wrath of God actually lasted for more than 30 years and resulted in extra judicial killings of Palestinians suspected of ties with terrorist groups..and included a number of civilian bystanders and family members and included sending letter bombs by the Mossad. It sparked several operations like in Lillhammer in which the Mossad/IDF killed innocents and it sparked campaigns in Beyrut.

So no...those ALSO created civilian victims, although to a much lesser extend than the current operation.

But if you wan to go that direction...lets by all means mention Bahr El-Baquar. Al-Mawasi. Hule...and many, many others.

;)

[PhoenixAsh]

It is incredibly ironic how everybody focusses on Hamas using human shields...but completely and utterly ignores the fact and proven allegations of the IDF using human shield for decades in their operations. All documented by Amnesty, Human rights Watch, B'tselem, Al Mezan....documenting incidents such as this:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-115890185.html


Somehow...those who want to be "critical and objective" never, ever, ever mention that.


Because it is quite important to determine if Hamas uses human shields.

It pepetuates the demonization of the Palestinians.

But by all means....remain "critical and objective".

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Aside from what I've posted and said, says nor implies not perpetuates absolutely nothing and pointing this out is not saying, too, that Israel is not the aggressor, and so on. Their war crimes are as clear as day and it goes without mentioning when I'm specifically talking about Hamas. Like, literally, you guys are making up shit and pulling shit out of your ass entirely. This is absolutely ridiculous. This is like saying, because I'm stating the sky is blue, I am must obviously also e perpetuating the narrative that the grass is not green and could in fact be brown or a variety I other hues or colors or some shit. Friggin stupid really.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

It is incredibly ironic how everybody focusses on Hamas using human shields...but completely and utterly ignores the fact and proven allegations of the IDF using human shield for decades in their operations. All documented by Amnesty, Human rights Watch, B'tselem, Al Mezan....documenting incidents such as this:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-115890185.html


Somehow...those who want to be "critical and objective" never, ever, ever mention that.


Because it is quite important to determine if Hamas uses human shields.

It pepetuates the demonization of the Palestinians.

But by all means....remain "critical and objective".

Stating that Hamas uses human shields doesn't mean you're saying Israel hasn't or won't. Nor is it perpetuating the demonization of the Palestinian people, it's just saying it's a tactic used by Hamas. For fucks sake. Wow.

"No, we assure you we are right, as you can clearly see by the straw men we have constructed, here, here and here. It elementary you see. Don't worry about your nose bleeding, that just shows your brain is reorienting itself to our insane logic."

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

There's also a very huge qualitative difference between operation bayonet which was mainly targeting members suspected of being BSO/PLO and the whole bombardment of Gaza and so on as we saw with operation protective edge. To seriously try to compare the two is ridiculous. Even between the two operations themselves there's a difference between carrying out a mission, in a European country against specific Israeli targets and launching 5.000+ rockets from residential areas in Gaza, cuz obviously, the Israelis totally aren't going to bomb the every living shit out of it in response. They're a lot more compassionate then that. :rolleyes:

This is like saying when the PFLP hijacked El Al flight 426 it's basically the same thing as Hamas instructing Palestinian civilians to stand on too of roofs during bombing raids so they can take a bunch of pictures and profit from it. Which is ridiculous.

[PhoenixAsh]

It is funny that in a debate where you are telling us you are critical and objective you continuously manage to make excuses for Israel and interject into the debate reasons why Hamas, or this and that Palestinian group, is terrible...

Israel doesn't allow baby food?
...Yes but Hamas puts people on rooftops.

Israel bombs residential area's and causing >2000 civilian deaths?
...yes but 20 years ago Israel wasn't as violent...that one time (lets ignore all the massacres that DID happen in the same time period)

Israel uses human shields for decades?
...ow but I am just talking about Hamas here right now so lets focus entirely on them.

Israel has a racist expansionist policy and occupies increasingly larger areas?
...yes but Hamas shoots rockets at them

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

It is funny that in a debate where you are telling us you are critical and objective you continuously manage to make excuses for Israel and interject into the debate reasons why Hamas, or this and that Palestinian group, is terrible...

Israel doesn't allow baby food?
...Yes but Hamas puts people on rooftops.

Israel bombs residential area's and causing >2000 civilian deaths?
...yes but 20 years ago Israel wasn't as violent...that one time (lets ignore all the massacres that DID happen in the same time period)

Israel uses human shields for decades?
...ow but I am just talking about Hamas here right now so lets focus entirely on them.

Israel has a racist expansionist policy and occupies increasingly larger areas?
...yes but Hamas shoots rockets at them

Actually, I was actually citing other Palestinian resistance groups that I obviously like and support and citing various examples of resistance tactics carried out by them that I do like and then contrasting this with Hamas, who I don't like, and their tactics, also of which, I don't like. That's what's actually happened and that's what I actually said. Stop with this man of straw bullshit. I even went so far as to label Israel 'Israhell' and the IDF, 'Israhellis.' I also accused them of war crimes and gross human rights abuses and was pretty clear about this; this is ridiculous.

[The Modern Prometheus]

Okay so if i travel to the US and shoot a a few Americans does that justify America bombing and trying to occupy Canada cause it's much the same argument here. Except Gaza was already under Israeli occupation and the state of Israel has been looking for a excuse to raze Gaza to the fucking ground. They would have found one anyway this was just the proverbial brick through the window that set off the riot.

It in no way justifies Israel occupying Gaza on all ends nor making Gaza look like London after the Nazis blitzed it.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Okay so if i travel to the US and shoot a a few Americans does that justify America bombing and trying to occupy Canada cause it's much the same argument here. Except Gaza was already under Israeli occupation and the state of Israel has been looking for a excuse to raze Gaza to the fucking ground. They would have found one anyway this was just the proverbial brick through the window that set off the riot.

It in no way justifies Israel occupying Gaza on all ends nor making Gaza look like London after the Nazis blitzed it.

I never said it did! Jesus fucking Christ, lol, this is literally stupid now; if it wasn't before, it sure is now. I literally said none of those things. I literally posted this because I found it to be significant and I will admit, it was an I told you so, to this fucking forum, but I turned out not be wrong and I was right. Literally, I'm just proving I was right about who did what in one situation. I'm not fucking comment on occupied Palestine, or Israel or operation protective edge, or netanyahus toupe or whatever the fuck it is, so stop with this fuckery.

[Slavic]

I'm confused, Василиса Прекра's first post was linking an article where it is stated that Hamas may have ordered those kidnappings and murders, and then every post since has been her saying she does not support the Israeli invasion of Gaza.

So are we not allowed to post links to shitty disgusting things that Hamas has done? Or are we only allowed to post links to shitty disgusting things that Israel has done?

Actually I think I know, you are allowed to post links to shitty disgusting things Hamas has done ONLY if you also post a link to an EVEN SHITTIER digusting thing that Israel has done. That's it right?

[PhoenixAsh]

I'm confused, Василиса Прекра's first post was linking an article where it is stated that Hamas may have ordered those kidnappings and murders, and then every post since has been her saying she does not support the Israeli invasion of Gaza.

So are we not allowed to post links to shitty disgusting things that Hamas has done? Or are we only allowed to post links to shitty disgusting things that Israel has done?

Actually I think I know, you are allowed to post links to shitty disgusting things Hamas has done ONLY if you also post a link to an EVEN SHITTIER digusting thing that Israel has done. That's it right?

Yeah.,...except that that isn't Василиса Прекра's first post on the matter and it sure as hell isn't the first time they acted to interject on behalf of Israel arguing how "actually...it is such a nice state only turned bad by those nasty, nasty Hamas people". For all their protestations...this happens a whole lot with Василиса Прекра to such an extend we read her posts in exactly that light.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Yeah.,...except that that isn't Василиса Прекра's first post on the matter and it sure as hell isn't the first time they acted to interject on behalf of Israel arguing how "actually...it is such a nice state only turned bad by those nasty, nasty Hamas people". For all their protestations...this happens a whole lot with Василиса Прекра to such an extend we read her posts in exactly that light.

Aside from I didn't, the most I've done is correct other peoples I felt were wrong on certain specifics of the war. I never did or say anything positive about Israel. This is just how you lot have chosen to spin the conversation. Cuz you know, Hamas is a popular boy band from Palestine who does nothing but being hot and bringing wonder to the people of Gaza. They in, no way, commited war crimes against the Palestinian people, of course not, because they're just a simple boy band and I'm just a simple Zionist who is ironically anti Semitic with her rants against finance capital who also wears a tinfoil crown and believe aliens talk to her. Or whatever the fuck, lame ass accusations that have been thrown my way.

[The Modern Prometheus]

I'm no supporter of Hamas as they are a completely ineffective force against Israel and even if they have had to moderate their stance lately they still lean on the religion bullshit too much. But since when does Hamas who are abunch who can at best launch useless rockets into Israel speak for all of Palestine? Not to mention they seem to be a pretty fragmented group so the militant wing or some shitty break off group could have done this without the political wing knowledge much less their endorsement.

[blake 3:17]

The only people who use the term "IsraHell" are anti Semites.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

The only people who use the term "IsraHell" are anti Semites.

Fantastic! Emotional closure, I've come full circle, I'm backing to being an anti-Semite again. What a ride.

[blake 3:17]

There's no lack of anti Semitic Zionists.