Women. Religion’s longest running victims.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Women. Religion’s longest running victims.

Here we are in civilized and enlightened societies and cultures in high tech times and we are not smart enough to recognize that the world will continue in strife as long as we men do not give women full equality as a minimum to what men should do towards the care of families.

I hope you are astute enough to see this. If you do nothing then you know not what duty to your family should be. The women in your family deserve to be first class citizens.

Men are maintaining God’s curse against women. He will rule over you.

Men. Christians, Catholics and Muslims. Free your women. It’s time. Man up.

Please.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Mod. Please fix the O.P.

I cannot even edit it. Thanks.

Regards
DL

[Lily Briscoe]

Men. Christians, Catholics and Muslims. Free your women. It’s time. Man up.

Hah.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I would argue it's society, not religion which has historically oppressed women.

Also for a bishop you're awfully harsh on religion.

[argeiphontes]

That's mostly a legacy of the revealed Abrahamic religions coming out of the levant. As a Hellenic polytheist, we don't have this problem.

[DOOM]

I would argue it's society, not religion which has historically oppressed women.

Also for a bishop you're awfully harsh on religion.

Religion is formed by society and society is formed by religion. These factors are entangled and are influencing each other. So I would argue that both religion AND society have historically oppressed women.

[argeiphontes]

Religion is formed by society and society is formed by religion.

Indeed. Jung would say that religion is a projection object of the psyche. Societies that "want" to oppress women will project that onto their religion.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Indeed. Jung would say that religion is a projection object of the psyche. Societies that "want" to oppress women will project that onto their religion.

Which is my point. Religion is nuetral and has been colored and twisted to the society and conditions of tht society if that time. Which is why again I don't think it entirely accurate to claim what was claimed in the OP.


That's mostly a legacy of the revealed Abrahamic religions coming out of the levant. As a Hellenic polytheist, we don't have this problem.

I think this fiction which polytheists put out is just that, a fiction. In all do respect of course. Not trying to offend any pagan friends. :)

[argeiphontes]

I think this fiction which polytheists put out is just that, a fiction. In all do respect of course. Not trying to offend any pagan friends. :)

It's not any more or less "fiction" than any other religion. They are all equally true or false. (Barring any empirical confirmation, of course. Which there is none.)

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

It's not any more or less "fiction" than any other religion. They are all equally true or false. (Barring any empirical confirmation, of course. Which there is none.)

That's not what I meant. I wasn't talking about the validity of any faith or groups of faith more I was talking about a narrative which is pretty common among contemporary pagans in that, Pagan society was more 'woman-friendly' then Jewish, Christian or Muslim societies. I just don't think that's true.

[argeiphontes]

deleted -- duplicate -- see below

[argeiphontes]

That's not what I meant. I wasn't talking about the validity of any faith or groups of faith more I was talking about a narrative which is pretty common among contemporary pagans in that, Pagan society was more 'woman-friendly' then Jewish, Christian or Muslim societies. I just don't think that's true.

Oh, sorry I misunderstood. I would argue that the presence of the feminine is much more obvious in (neo)Pagan religions. I can't really speak for Wicca or Asatru because I'm not one of those, but it seems to me that, in Hellenic polytheism at least, the even division of Gods and Goddesses, along with the granting of traditionally masculine roles/ways-of-being to Goddesses and traditionally feminine roles/ways-of-being to Gods speaks to the point. There is a plethora of male and female characters enacting all of the roles we find in human society.

Not to mention that most Abrahamic religions lack aspects of the feminine at all. According to Jung, every religion needs a patriarchal and an active masculine and a matriarchal and and an active feminine to be complete, because those correspond to how the masculine and feminine are present in everyday life. (Jung wasn't perfect, but he wasn't the misogynist Freud was.)

A religion that lacks any of those isn't complete, and IMO is likely to suffer for it. If religion is an "ontological scam" then you only get out of it what you put into it. So a religion with no divine feminine archetypes will cause people to devalue the feminine. For example, those Christian groups that worship the Virgin Mary at least have the matriarchal feminine (though she's still second class), but they still lack the active feminine unless you consider the Holy Spirit to fulfill that role, which IMO is a stretch.

Hellenic polytheism, on the other hand, has multiple aspects of the feminine including Ge (aka Gaia but that's another part of speech), Mother Rhea, Demeter Mother, and Hera, but it also has the active feminine in the form of Artemis, who hunts the beasts of the field by day and parties by night, Aphrodite who relishes in her sexuality, and Athena who is her father's daughter and is first in battle, just like the guys, in fact superior to them if they're mere mortals. And those are just the most prominent. There is every aspect of the feminine from universal mother in the form of the goat Amalthea who suckled the infant Zeus to the negative "witch-like" aspects of Hekate. If you are something, you will find your reflection in the divine, which is very empowering.

The same is true of the male figures, every archetype is there in the mythology. You have Dionysos (a model for Christ, actually) who has characteristics that could be considered traditionally feminine, is dismembered by Titans, yet falls under the protection (not rejection) of his father and due to the beneficence of that nurturing is reborn "with balls", as the spirit of undying life. (I don't have to mention homosexuality, which pretty much everybody engages in as completely natural.)

So the entire range of human behavior is better represented than when you just think of women as being motherly virgins or what have you, which doesn't correspond to real life at all, unless it's an artificial subset of real life that can cause people to try to fit into roles that they don't really fit into. Thinking of women as falling into the limited roles allowed by limited religions is going to cause big problems among believers in real life. You can't do that in Ancient Greece because there is an existing model for that behavior already, and that model is divine, and therefore valid. Whoever you are, you are valid.

The problem seems to me, that the so-called "revealed religions" (based on prophets) have this problem, because they are just some people's vision, whereas the "natural religions" like most polytheism tend to better mirror real life people and the situations they find themselves. Because they evolved over time and people continued to project their natures into the divine. So there is a much greater range of human behavior that's mirrored by the Gods. I'm sure this is true in general (the range of expression) in other polytheistic religions.

Hope that makes sense. Kaire Bakche! ;)

[consuming negativity]

Women. Religion’s longest running victims.

Here we are in civilized and enlightened societies and cultures in high tech times and we are not smart enough to recognize that the world will continue in strife as long as we men do not give women full equality as a minimum to what men should do towards the care of families.

I hope you are astute enough to see this. If you do nothing then you know not what duty to your family should be. The women in your family deserve to be first class citizens.

Men are maintaining God’s curse against women. He will rule over you.

Men. Christians, Catholics and Muslims. Free your women. It’s time.

Man up.

Please.

Regards
DL

I don't see much to reply to, but there's the OP.

[bropasaran]

That's mostly a legacy of the revealed Abrahamic religions coming out of the levant. As a Hellenic polytheist, we don't have this problem.
Yeah, when Hellenistic polytheism was the official religion, women were treated as equals. :lol:

[argeiphontes]

Yeah, when Hellenistic polytheism was the official religion, women were treated as equals. :lol:

There's a difference between the content and the interpretation and the practice of any religion, isn't there? Yet, the range of potential practice and interpretation is going to be limited by the content, isn't it?

Besides, are you so sure that the position of women was worse in 800BC than 800AD? And that this had something to do with whatever "liberation" there was to be found in Christianity? Which I see none of, of course, just by looking at the content. I see Plato recommending women in the military. That didn't happen until the 20th century AD.

I didn't say that women were treated as equals. I said the content of the religion allowed them to be considered as equals. Which is not true of Christianity.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Hah.

I do not have much hope in men at present either. We have mostly all forgotten our duty to family.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I would argue it's society, not religion which has historically oppressed women.

Also for a bishop you're awfully harsh on religion.

Do you respect what religions have become?

Does yours teach to discriminate without just cause? Most do, especially the Abrahamic cults and they are the majority.

He shall rule over you is what they live by.

"Whoever imagines himself a favorite with God,
holds other people in contempt.
Whenever a man believes that he has the exact truth from God,
there is in that man no spirit of compromise.
He has not the modesty born of the imperfections of human nature;
he has the arrogance of theological certainty and the tyranny born of ignorant assurance.
Believing himself to be the slave of God,
he imitates his master,
and of all tyrants,
the worst is a slave in power."
--Robert Ingersoll

Regards
DL

[PhoenixAsh]

Helenic society was arguably one of the most repressing ones regarding women and equality. women were mere property...quite literally. ...who didn't have any rights outside the house.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

That's mostly a legacy of the revealed Abrahamic religions coming out of the levant. As a Hellenic polytheist, we don't have this problem.

Ask your women if your religion insulates you and somehow forces equal pay for equal work.

I am just saying that this is about everyone and not just little isolated pockets.

A social conscience demands justice and we are not even beginning to put justice in the world if we are discriminating without cause against half the worlds population.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

That's not what I meant. I wasn't talking about the validity of any faith or groups of faith more I was talking about a narrative which is pretty common among contemporary pagans in that, Pagan society was more 'woman-friendly' then Jewish, Christian or Muslim societies. I just don't think that's true.

Women ruled as Goddess' for 20,000 odd years before men took over thanks to the Bronze Age giving men weapons powerful enough to make war with. What followed was fortified city states and we have enjoyed almost non-stop wars ever since, --- with men at the helm.

Pagan men knew their duty to family it seems more than those who would denigrate their name.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I don't see much to reply to, but there's the OP.

Yes. Thanks for asking where I get my weird moral views.:laugh:

I am a Gnostic Christian and Christians annihilated my predecessors for asking this same type of question and pointing out the faults of literal reading Christians.

Rome decided that women were not to be granted equality and Constantine locked in that policy when he bought the Christian/Catholic church and ordered them to kill off all free thinkers like the Gnostic Christians.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Yeah, when Hellenistic polytheism was the official religion, women were treated as equals. :lol:

Did they, like Christians, also have a policy of ---- he shall rule over you?

Did they institutionalize their discrimination based on what one has between their legs?

The second century St. Clement of Alexandria wrote: "Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman."

The Church father Tertullian explained why women deserve their status as despised and inferior human beings

"And do you not know that you are an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil's gateway: you are the unsealer of that tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert that is, death even the Son of God had to die."


The sixth century Christian philosopher, Boethius, wrote in The Consolation of Philosophy, "Woman is a temple built upon a sewer."

In the tenth century Odo of Cluny declared, "To embrace a woman is to embrace a sack of manure..."

St. Thomas Aquinas suggested that God had made a mistake in creating woman: "nothing [deficient] or defective should have been produced in the first establishment of things; so woman ought not to have been produced then."

Regards
DL

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Oh, sorry I misunderstood. I would argue that the presence of the feminine is much more obvious in (neo)Pagan religions. I can't really speak for Wicca or Asatru because I'm not one of those, but it seems to me that, in Hellenic polytheism at least, the even division of Gods and Goddesses, along with the granting of traditionally masculine roles/ways-of-being to Goddesses and traditionally feminine roles/ways-of-being to Gods speaks to the point. There is a plethora of male and female characters enacting all of the roles we find in human society.

Ok I suppose.


Not to mention that most Abrahamic religions lack aspects of the feminine at all. According to Jung, every religion needs a patriarchal and an active masculine and a matriarchal and and an active feminine to be complete, because those correspond to how the masculine and feminine are present in everyday life. (Jung wasn't perfect, but he wasn't the misogynist Freud was.)

Full disclosure, I'm actually not a big fan of Jung, but for the sake of this conversation I'll humor you in this regard.


A religion that lacks any of those isn't complete, and IMO is likely to suffer for it. If religion is an "ontological scam" then you only get out of it what you put into it. So a religion with no divine feminine archetypes will cause people to devalue the feminine. For example, those Christian groups that worship the Virgin Mary at least have the matriarchal feminine (though she's still second class), but they still lack the active feminine unless you consider the Holy Spirit to fulfill that role, which IMO is a stretch.

Christianity proper respects and venerates the Virgin Mary (see Catholics and Orthodox; both of which I combined make up a majority of Christians world-wide). Along with the tales of women prophets and holy women within Christianity the Church itself takes on a 'feminine' if not maternal dimensions that being the (as it says in the New Testament) the 'bride of Christ.' In the Qur'an too, the 19th surah bares her name. The story of Bilqi in the Qur'an as well is also interesting.


Hellenic polytheism, on the other hand, has multiple aspects of the feminine including Ge (aka Gaia but that's another part of speech), Mother Rhea, Demeter Mother, and Hera, but it also has the active feminine in the form of Artemis, who hunts the beasts of the field by day and parties by night, Aphrodite who relishes in her sexuality, and Athena who is her father's daughter and is first in battle, just like the guys, in fact superior to them if they're mere mortals. And those are just the most prominent. There is every aspect of the feminine from universal mother in the form of the goat Amalthea who suckled the infant Zeus to the negative "witch-like" aspects of Hekate. If you are something, you will find your reflection in the divine, which is very empowering.

Even within Hellenic mythology there is numerous instances of rape. Most famous that being the rape of Perspherone. I also would argue that the myths too also there is also numerous examples of women being punished for being too attractive or too smart or too opinionated so the strong feminine 'b¡tch' character is something portrayed as being too naughty and the behavior of which needs divine punishment and intervention. Take for example also, the rape of Medusa, not only was she too beautiful she was also raped by Poseidon because of it and then punished by Athena by being disfigured so her beauty would never be alluring to mortal or God again. Greek mythology is literally chalk full of female rape and objectification reflecting the psyche of Greek society and the patriarchal oppression of women in Greek society. Notice too the stratification of Greek mythology as well.


The same is true of the male figures, every archetype is there in the mythology. You have Dionysos (a model for Christ, actually) who has characteristics that could be considered traditionally feminine, is dismembered by Titans, yet falls under the protection (not rejection) of his father and due to the beneficence of that nurturing is reborn "with balls", as the spirit of undying life. (I don't have to mention homosexuality, which pretty much everybody engages in as completely natural.)

I also don't think that what we know as 'homosexuality' was truly tolerated and seen as something totally natural. In fact, pederasty seems to be widely prevalent and more of a thing than actual real homosexual love and sex between two men or women.


So the entire range of human behavior is better represented than when you just think of women as being motherly virgins or what have you, which doesn't correspond to real life at all, unless it's an artificial subset of real life that can cause people to try to fit into roles that they don't really fit into. Thinking of women as falling into the limited roles allowed by limited religions is going to cause big problems among believers in real life. You can't do that in Ancient Greece because there is an existing model for that behavior already, and that model is divine, and therefore valid. Whoever you are, you are valid.

The problem seems to me, that the so-called "revealed religions" (based on prophets) have this problem, because they are just some people's vision, whereas the "natural religions" like most polytheism tend to better mirror real life people and the situations they find themselves. Because they evolved over time and people continued to project their natures into the divine. So there is a much greater range of human behavior that's mirrored by the Gods. I'm sure this is true in general (the range of expression) in other polytheistic religions.

Hope that makes sense. Kaire Bakche! ;)

See above comments on Greek society and mythology.

[bropasaran]

There's a difference between the content and the interpretation and the practice of any religion, isn't there? Yet, the range of potential practice and interpretation is going to be limited by the content, isn't it?
Well, pagans religions being mostly customary and not having almost any formal (let alone analytic) explication of their tenets, they are convenient that way for the modern pick-and-choose mentality.


Besides, are you so sure that the position of women was worse in 800BC than 800AD?
Never claimed it was. Christianity did have a few theoretical details (in the vein of all people being equal before god) that had the potential to be interpreted in an egalitarian and emancipatory way, but giving that interpretation wasn't really tried until the modern age.


Did they, like Christians, also have a policy of ---- he shall rule over you?

Did they institutionalize their discrimination based on what one has between their legs?They didn't?


The second century St. Clement of Alexandria wrote: "Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman."
Interestingly, Clement was, along with Chrysostom, my favorite Church Father when I was a Christian, both a lucid and an eloquent writer. I have read his works multiple times, and I don't remember any such statement. I do however remember that his book The Instructor has near it's start this chapter:

"Chapter 4. Men and Women Alike Under the Instructor's Charge

Let us, then, embracing more and more this good obedience, give ourselves to the Lord; clinging to what is surest, the cable of faith in Him, and understanding that the virtue of man and woman is the same. For if the God of both is one, the master of both is also one; one church, one temperance, one modesty; their food is common, marriage an equal yoke; respiration, sight, hearing, knowledge, hope, obedience, love all alike. And those whose life is common, have common graces and a common salvation; common to them are love and training."

I'm not saying that Christianity isn't patriarchal and misogynist, it is, I just found this particular quote strange.

Concerning other quotes, I don't know about Odo, I'd have to look that up; Tertullian and Boethius don't hold any authority in Christianity, they are not Church Fathers, let alone Doctors of the Church. Aquinas is a Doctor of the Church, and a seminal one for that matter, so his quote is quite pertinent to what is Christian teaching. The quote you gave is actually a view against which Aquinas writes. It's based on weird Aristotle's views on biology, Aquinas, being a huge fan of Aristotle can't contradict him, and accepts his views that "a female is a misbegotten male" but says how that concerns women qua biological beings, not qua human beings, women as human beings are a good and proper creation of god just as males. Which is not to say that they are to be equal to males, they are to be subordinate to men, because they're more emotional. Odd stuff, religions generally are.

[Decolonize The Left]

Which is my point. Religion is nuetral and has been colored and twisted to the society and conditions of tht society if that time.

Religion is in no way, shape, or form, neutral. Religion is a set of normative and empirical claims upon material reality. These claims have moral and descriptive weight, they are the farthest thing from neutral.

If religion was merely something neutral which was "colored and twisted to the society and conditions" thereof, it would be economics: the production and distribution of goods and services. But it is not this, all societies do not require a religious system like they require an economic system.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Religion is in no way, shape, or form, neutral. Religion is a set of normative and empirical claims upon material reality. These claims have moral and descriptive weight, they are the farthest thing from neutral.

If religion was merely something neutral which was "colored and twisted to the society and conditions" thereof, it would be economics: the production and distribution of goods and services. But it is not this, all societies do not require a religious system like they require an economic system.

Not really. Take for example America and the Christian bible being used and abused to justify things such as slavery, apartheid, racism, sexism and so on. Even though arguably, when properly understood, the bible argues in favor of being opposed to all such reactionary bile. That's what I meant by it being nuetral and I'm half positive you know that. Perhaps it was a stretch to say religion is 'neutral' but within the context of this conversation, I would argue it is.

[Decolonize The Left]

Not really. Take for example America and the Christian bible being used and abused to justify things such as slavery, apartheid, racism, sexism and so on. Even though arguably, when properly understood, the bible argues in favor of being opposed to all such reactionary bile. That's what I meant by it being nuetral and I'm half positive you know that. Perhaps it was a stretch to say religion is 'neutral' but within the context of this conversation, I would argue it is.

Bold added. In your own explanation you point out how non-neutral the Bible (or any religious text by extension) is as it makes normative claims. Whether or not religion is a reactionary or progressive force is one discussion, but claiming any sort of neutrality regarding religion as a whole is just silly.

I believe that claims like these are a result of historical impact religion has had upon us as a species, now to the point where we feel as though we ought carve a position out for it (perhaps at the very least as a 'neutral' thing) in the face of its fading relevance.

[argeiphontes]

Helenic society was arguably one of the most repressing ones regarding women and equality. women were mere property...quite literally. ...who didn't have any rights outside the house.

Not so. The times they were a-changin'

http://www.historytoday.com/michael-scott/rise-women-ancient-greece

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Odd stuff, religions generally are.

For sure. They breed weird sayings and beliefs.



“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”

“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

Martin Luther “



And my favorite in terms of women.

“If a woman grows weary and, at last, dies from childbearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing - she is there to do it.”
- Martin Luther


Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Well, pagans religions being mostly customary and not having almost any formal (let alone analytic) explication of their tenets, they are convenient that way for the modern pick-and-choose mentality.


Never claimed it was. Christianity did have a few theoretical details (in the vein of all people being equal before god) that had the potential to be interpreted in an egalitarian and emancipatory way, but giving that interpretation wasn't really tried until the modern age.

They didn't?


Interestingly, Clement was, along with Chrysostom, my favorite Church Father when I was a Christian, both a lucid and an eloquent writer. I have read his works multiple times, and I don't remember any such statement. I do however remember that his book The Instructor has near it's start this chapter:

"Chapter 4. Men and Women Alike Under the Instructor's Charge

Let us, then, embracing more and more this good obedience, give ourselves to the Lord; clinging to what is surest, the cable of faith in Him, and understanding that the virtue of man and woman is the same. For if the God of both is one, the master of both is also one; one church, one temperance, one modesty; their food is common, marriage an equal yoke; respiration, sight, hearing, knowledge, hope, obedience, love all alike. And those whose life is common, have common graces and a common salvation; common to them are love and training."

I'm not saying that Christianity isn't patriarchal and misogynist, it is, I just found this particular quote strange.

Concerning other quotes, I don't know about Odo, I'd have to look that up; Tertullian and Boethius don't hold any authority in Christianity, they are not Church Fathers, let alone Doctors of the Church. Aquinas is a Doctor of the Church, and a seminal one for that matter, so his quote is quite pertinent to what is Christian teaching. The quote you gave is actually a view against which Aquinas writes. It's based on weird Aristotle's views on biology, Aquinas, being a huge fan of Aristotle can't contradict him, and accepts his views that "a female is a misbegotten male" but says how that concerns women qua biological beings, not qua human beings, women as human beings are a good and proper creation of god just as males. Which is not to say that they are to be equal to males, they are to be subordinate to men, because they're more emotional. Odd stuff, religions generally are.

Apologies for the font.

[helot]

Hellenic polytheism, on the other hand, has multiple aspects of the feminine including Ge (aka Gaia but that's another part of speech), Mother Rhea, Demeter Mother, and Hera,but it also has the active feminine in the form of Artemis, who hunts the beasts of the field by day and parties by night,
Aphrodite who relishes in her sexuality, and Athena who is her father's daughter and is first in battle, just like the guys, in fact superior to them if they're mere mortals. And those are just the most prominent. There is every aspect of the feminine from universal mother in the form of the goat Amalthea who suckled the infant Zeus to the negative "witch-like" aspects of Hekate. If you are something, you will find your reflection in the divine, which is very empowering.

So from these goddesses we find the following aspects of woman: creator of life, wife, virgin and cunning deceiver. In fact it corresponds pretty well with the steroetypes of women in classical antiquity which we can glimpse from their cultural output.

Ever read Aeschylus' Agamemnon? The demonisation of Clytaemnestra as 'manoeuvring like a man' in her plotting to take revenge on her husband for him sacrificing their daughter expresses an aspect of the deep seated misogyny of that society inevitably expressed in their collective consciousness.

[bropasaran]

Gnostic Christian Bishop, not that it would surprise me that those are actual quotes of Martin Luther, could you give sources, I'd like to check them out. I have to ask, being that some of the previous quotes you gave were dubious.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Gnostic Christian Bishop, not that it would surprise me that those are actual quotes of Martin Luther, could you give sources, I'd like to check them out. I have to ask, being that some of the previous quotes you gave were dubious.

I admit they came from Google and it is shown a number of times.

http://www.jesuscult.com/Luther_Anti-Reason.htm

https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=7zzpU7P-I-mM8Qe5iYCICQ&gws_rd=ssl#q=If+a+woman+grows+weary+and%2C+at+last %2C+dies+from+childbearing%2C+it+matters+not.+Let+ her+die+from+bearing+-+she+is+there+to+do+it

Regards
DL

[PhoenixAsh]

Not so. The times they were a-changin'

http://www.historytoday.com/michael-scott/rise-women-ancient-greece

Did you read the article?

[PhoenixAsh]

Not so. The times they were a-changin'

http://www.historytoday.com/michael-scott/rise-women-ancient-greece

Did you read the article? Because it is all really quite marginal.

[argeiphontes]

Did you read the article? Because it is all really quite marginal.

I did. I disagree that it was marginal. It's property and politics. Compare it to the western dark age.

Not that religion is the only thing that's responsible for the position of women, then or later. Thinking that would be incredibly "idealist" (in the derogatory sense it's used in this forum).

[bcbm]

I did. I disagree that it was marginal. It's property and politics. Compare it to the western dark age.

'western' is covering a very large area inhabited by diverse groups of people with many prevailing customs and 'dark age' is regarded rather poorly these days as a historical descriptor of the early middle ages. women living amongst various barbarian groups probably had a higher social position than the women of the late classical period who were only allowed out of the house because much of greek society, particularly athens, had been decimated by plague and war.


Not that religion is the only thing that's responsible for the position of women, then or later. Thinking that would be incredibly "idealist" (in the derogatory sense it's used in this forum).this is correct. agriculture and the accompanying birth of civilization are responsible.

[PhoenixAsh]

I did. I disagree that it was marginal. It's property and politics. Compare it to the western dark age.

Not that religion is the only thing that's responsible for the position of women, then or later. Thinking that would be incredibly "idealist" (in the derogatory sense it's used in this forum).

What I mean to say is that you are referencing to a period that compasses about 40 years of what we call the Hellenic period but was also mainly enjoyed by a small fraction of the women and not in the city state of Athens.

Public offices that are mentioned were bestowed based on contribution and patronage or marrying into such offices. They weren't actually positions of power.

Hellenic society made some changes...in respect to the previous period. It is however hardly a society that was not entirely mysogenist.

The articles tone does a lot to cover up the fact that the changes it mentions were either limited in spread: Sparta (for citizens only btw and not the Helotes) or cosmetic in nature or very much limited to certain classes of women.

[argeiphontes]

It is however hardly a society that was not entirely mysogenist.

I didn't say it wasn't misogynist. But I don't think it was any worse than Christianity, and probably better. I'm not positivist enough to think that every century is better than the last.

As for "dark ages", the whole Age of Pisces was a dark age as far as I'm concerned, though we have been recovering, since the Renaissance.

[PhoenixAsh]

I would also like to add that women bought their (arranged) marriages and became property in most city states in Greece, with the notable exception of Sparta (again...only for Citizens). Up untill marriage they belonged to their closest living relative (kyrios) who had to perform almost all legal, economic and social transactions for her. In some city states the lower class women had to work, this was considered an economic necessity and was frowned upon and the marking of low social standing.

After their marriage they became a legal part of the estate of their husbands...to such an extend that after his death the heiress was usually married to his closest living male relative. IF that relative was already married he had the right to divorce his wife and remarry the heirress. His previous wife was mostly left to fend for herself.

The marriage age for women was 12. Often to much older men.

Let me be entirely clear...in NO city state, except Sparta, in Greece were women regarded as citizens or allegeable for citizenship based on their sex. Throughout the history of Athens no woman ever acquired citizenship.

Sparta was the only exception to the rule that women could allow property and accumulate wealth and make legal transactions. Yet they were entirely excluded from any political office.

Neither Sparta nor Athens are reflective of the rest of Greek classical society. However...outside these two polar opposites in the classical world the middle ground was still very much in line with the above.

[argeiphontes]

^ How does that relate to Hellenic religion, though?

[PhoenixAsh]

Because the role of women in religion is not a reflection of the role of women in society nor of their social standing.

Greek women have always played a large function in religion and their social duties were mostly confined to religious duties and functions.

Women in Christianity however do not have such predominant religious roles...yet it is arguable that in the middle ages their legal status and social rights were "bigger" in respect to those of classical Greece.

As a point of consideration: it has been argued that the rise of Islam was in part due to its liberating nature for women under Christianity and Judaism.

[bcbm]

why the early middle ages (again, where? who?) as the point of comparison anyway?

[Alexios]

I didn't say it wasn't misogynist. But I don't think it was any worse than Christianity, and probably better. I'm not positivist enough to think that every century is better than the last.

As for "dark ages", the whole Age of Pisces was a dark age as far as I'm concerned, though we have been recovering, since the Renaissance.
What on earth is "Age of Pisces" even supposed to mean.


As a point of consideration: it has been argued that the rise of Islam was in part due to its liberating nature for women under Christianity and Judaism.

I agree with your other points but I'd like to know where you're getting this from. I've never heard it before.

[argeiphontes]

What on earth is "Age of Pisces" even supposed to mean.

The/A symbol of Christianity is the fish. The "Age of Pisces" is the astrological age that began around the time of the birth of Christ and is coming to an end soon. So I was using it metaphorically to refer to the Christian age, that we've been living through.

[argeiphontes]

Because the role of women in religion is not a reflection of the role of women in society nor of their social standing.

Good, then the Hellenic religion can't be blamed. You're right that women participated in religion. Dionysos' crazy Maenads (in the Dionysian mysteries) were women.

But then how are people going to blame Christianity for feudalism and the Reformation (Calvinism; predestination vs. good works; earthly wealth as a sign of God's favor; etc) for allowing Capitalism to really take off?

Also, if religion isn't a reflection of society, then what is it? Isn't that contrary to historical materialism?

[PhoenixAsh]

What on earth is "Age of Pisces" even supposed to mean.

I had missed that.

It has something to do with the precession of the equinoxes and stretches basically from the end of the classical Hellenic period till today. The age of Pisces is seen as the age of Christianity.

Do you know the song "Age of Aquarius"? Basically that. The age of Pisces is said to be ending and the age of Aquarius is starting.

It all starts to fall into place now.

This actually explains alot about argeiphontes....please don't tell me I have been wasting my time with somebody who believes in Halexanrianism


I agree with your other points but I'd like to know where you're getting this from. I've never heard it before.

It is based on comparative religion studies and the role of women in that religion. Islam afforded women an entirely different status as that of the Christian and Judaic laws and texts. Men and women in Islam are regarded as equal unique human entities with different duties and roles but still both as equally human (Al Nisa...for example). Women can own property, has the duty to educate herself, can not be stopped in educating herself, can go outside, can work, can visit her family, can divorce, needs to be economically provided for.

Women and men did have distinct different duties and roles and these were religiously prescribed. Men and women could not fullfill each others roles.

Of course these rights are relative...especially considering patriarchal culture and the fact that religion is prone to social interpretation.

[PhoenixAsh]

Good, then the Hellenic religion can't be blamed. You're right that women participated in religion. Dionysos' crazy Maenads (in the Dionysian mysteries) were women.

But then how are people going to blame Christianity for feudalism and the Reformation (Calvinism; predestination vs. good works; earthly wealth as a sign of God's favor; etc) for allowing Capitalism to really take off?

Also, if religion isn't a reflection of society, then what is it? Isn't that contrary to historical materialism?

I didn't say that. What I said is: the role of women in religion is not a reflection of their role in society.

I have not said that religion is not a reflection of society. And this doesn't mean that if a woman is revered in religion...she is not villified in society. Religion has also to do with ideals; polar opposites and individual entities (like Gods) .

And yes.,..we can blame religion partially for the role of women.

If you look closely to the religion...then yes,...they have Goddesses. And yes. They have power. And yes...they predominantly hate women. Athens always sides against women. Athens is always negative about women. “There is no mother anywhere who gave me birth, and, but for marriage, I am always for the male with all my heart, and strongly on my father’s side”

And even the creation mythology is ultimately female unfriendly and eventually turn all accomplishments of women over to men or need men to protect them, fullfill them.

The ONLY times when Greek mythology is actually positive about women is when they are subjected to male authority.

the Godesses themselves are always involved in schemes against men. And so...are not to be trusted and usually interfere with the fun of life for the men....or they tempt them and lead them away from accomplishing their goals.

When they help mortals...usually there is a huge war, famine, spread of diseases etc.

[Slavic]

Religion is what ever the hell you want it to be.

What you guys are arguing about is organizations that use segments of mainstream religious texts to justify their goals and objectives in society at large.

Society picks and chooses its beliefs to correspond to their needs. Beliefs do not dictate the needs and actions of society.

[argeiphontes]

This actually explains alot about argeiphontes...

Oh? What does it explain?

I didn't get any sense of female unfriendliness when I read Kerenyi's Gods of the Greeks or his little monograph on Athene. Of course, I'm free to interpret it in a modern context.

[PhoenixAsh]

Oh? What does it explain?

I didn't get any sense of female unfriendliness when I read Kerenyi's Gods of the Greeks or his little monograph on Athene. Of course, I'm free to interpret it in a modern context.

That you create your own reality

[argeiphontes]

That you create your own reality

You get that from a metaphor I used?

[PhoenixAsh]

You get that from a metaphor I used?

If you are into Halexandria...that is its purpose

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Good, then the Hellenic religion can't be blamed. You're right that women participated in religion. Dionysos' crazy Maenads (in the Dionysian mysteries) were women.

But then how are people going to blame Christianity for feudalism and the Reformation (Calvinism; predestination vs. good works; earthly wealth as a sign of God's favor; etc) for allowing Capitalism to really take off?

Also, if religion isn't a reflection of society, then what is it? Isn't that contrary to historical materialism?

What about the 'holy whores' of Corinth? The so called 'hetairai' of the temple of Aphrodite, Zeus and others? What do you make of 'sacred prostition' within the ancient Hellenic faith? I also, should point out, this practice wasn't only observed in Ancient Greece proper but all throughout the Hellenic world.

[argeiphontes]

If you are into Halexandria...that is its purpose

Halexandria, Hegypt?

[PhoenixAsh]

Nope. As in the new age movement that tries to link popular science, science fiction, religion, mythology and...just abaout everything including aliens...to explain the world and recreate reality. They use the exact same terminology and description of religion as you do..

[argeiphontes]

What about the 'holy whores' of Corinth? The so called 'hetairai' of the temple of Aphrodite, Zeus and others? What do you make of 'sacred prostition' within the ancient Hellenic faith? I also, should point out, this practice wasn't only observed in Ancient Greece proper but all throughout the Hellenic world.

I'm willing to give up my argument about the wonders of the Hellenic age, and certainly don't want to get into one about prostitution. But that's not anywhere in Hesiod, is it?

[argeiphontes]

Nope. As in the new age movement that tries to link popular science, science fiction, religion, mythology and...just abaout everything including aliens...to explain the world and recreate reality. They use the exact same terminology and description of religion as you do..

Aliens, ey? Now you've got my attention! :laugh: (See avatar.)

(Just googled it, actually. I seriously thought you might've misspelled something.)

As an aside, check out this guy (http://www.bernardokastrup.com/), though some of his arguments are a little iffy.

[argeiphontes]

They use the exact same terminology and description of religion as you do..

Yet, they fail to make the connection that The Fool's Journey (http://www.halexandria.org/dward012.htm) begins on RevLeft. :grin:

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Religion is what ever the hell you want it to be.

What you guys are arguing about is organizations that use segments of mainstream religious texts to justify their goals and objectives in society at large.

Society picks and chooses its beliefs to correspond to their needs. Beliefs do not dictate the needs and actions of society.

Hmm.

Obama's belief in social medicine did not dictate his actions or that of the U.S society.

Bush's belief in weapons in Iraq did not dictate the needs and actions of society and the U.S. forces.

Did I read you right?

Regards
DL

[Ro Laren]

Obviously neither of them had ulterior motives.

[Slavic]

Hmm.

Obama's belief in social medicine did not dictate his actions or that of the U.S society.

Bush's belief in weapons in Iraq did not dictate the needs and actions of society and the U.S. forces.

Did I read you right?

Regards
DL

WTF are you talking about. I am referring to religious beliefs.

Also what shitty examples.

The Bush administration talked about military actions against Iraq before the weapons of mass destruction myth.

The Affordable Care Act is a reaction to the shitty medical system in place in the US.

So no, you defiantly did not read me right.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Obviously neither of them had ulterior motives.
:ohmy:

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

WTF are you talking about. I am referring to religious beliefs.

Also what shitty examples.

The Bush administration talked about military actions against Iraq before the weapons of mass destruction myth.

The Affordable Care Act is a reaction to the shitty medical system in place in the US.

So no, you defiantly did not read me right.

You may have been referring to religious beliefs but it is not what you stated.

"Beliefs do not dictate the needs and actions of society."


But be it to religion or politics, my point is that beliefs definitely cause and effect actions.

Regards
DL