How can modern men believe in a creator God?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

How can modern men believe in a creator God?

Believing in any good supernatural creator entity should be quite the leap in logic, yet so many Christians admit to believing in such a good and powerful creator type God, --- even though they also often think the world has more evil than good in it.

Ancient man can be said to have lived in a world where there was as much magic as reality and Gods for every occasion. Most religions had to invent a nemesis for God, be it a Satan or a demiurge to take the blame for evil. Christianity followed the pattern for myths that was well known and established and invented Satan. That strange magical/superstitious world would explain why ancient man was foolish enough to believe in fantasy characters and creator Gods.

How would you explain that less enlightened view persisting in today’s supposedly well-educated and intelligent believer?

Regards
DL

[argeiphontes]

I'm guessing 'font' tags aren't allowed by the filter, GCB*. Any opinion on Krauss' A Universe From Nothing (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/books/review/a-universe-from-nothing-by-lawrence-m-krauss.html?pagewanted=all&r=0). You'll notice, maybe, that Richard Dawkins has no clothes anymore. He's the high priest of a new religion.

*edit: Try wrapping the font face name in quotes ( e.g. FONT="Times New Roman" ) and see if that helps. OTOH, there's no point in using fonts here anyway.

[Deep Sea]

There is also the possibility Western "Christians" don't really believe in any of it.


The old century is very nearly out, and leaves the world in a pretty pass, and the British Empire is playing the devil in it as never an empire before on so large a scale. We may live to see its fall. All the nations of Europe are making the same hell upon earth in China, massacring and pillaging and raping in the captured cities as outrageously as in the Middle Ages. The Emperor of Germany gives the word for slaughter and the Pope looks on and approves. In South Africa our troops are burning farms under Kitchener's command, and the Queen and the two houses of Parliament, and the bench of bishops thank God publicly and vote money for the work. The Americans are spending fifty millions a year on slaughtering the Filipinos; the King of the Belgians has invested his whole fortune on the Congo, where he is brutalizing the Negroes to fill his pockets. The French and Italians for the moment are playing a less prominent part in the slaughter, but their inactivity grieves them. The whole white race is reveling openly in violence, as though it had never pretended to be Christian. God's equal curse be on them all! So ends the famous nineteenth century into which we were so proud to have been born....

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

There is also the possibility Western "Christians" don't really believe in any of it.


I'm guessing 'font' tags aren't allowed by the filter, GCB*. Any opinion on Krauss' . You'll notice, maybe, that Richard Dawkins has no clothes anymore. He's the high priest of a new religion.

*edit: Try wrapping the font face name in quotes ( e.g. FONT="Times New Roman" ) and see if that helps. OTOH, there's no point in using fonts here anyway.

Yes but you would think I could edit it. I cannot and I am not putting fonts in. Being computer illiterate, I have no clue as to where they come from.

I will have to play around I guess or write everything directly. Bummer.

I would agree with those who say that most who say they believe do not really believe. Most are into culture and tradition and are not foolish enough to actually believe in fantasy, miracles and magic.

We have to realize that in these places we chat with mostly right wing literalist loonies.

That is why there is always so much venom in these places.

Those like me who demand better morals from Gods add to that venom but that cannot be helped if good people are to fight the evils of religions.

Regards
DL

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Why not? What's so wrong with Theism anyway?

[Five Year Plan]

Why not? What's so wrong with Theism anyway?

If you work really, really hard doing things I tell you to do for me the rest of our lives, I'll tell you in the afterlife. How does that bargain sound?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

If you work really, really hard doing things I tell you to do for me the rest of our lives, I'll tell you in the afterlife. How does that bargain sound?

Huh?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Why not? What's so wrong with Theism anyway?

Look at history and ponder the Dark Ages.

How many need to die for imaginary beliefs and fictitious Gods?

"Whoever imagines himself a favorite with God,
holds other people in contempt.
Whenever a man believes that he has the exact truth from God,
there is in that man no spirit of compromise.
He has not the modesty born of the imperfections of human nature;
he has the arrogance of theological certainty and the tyranny born of ignorant assurance.
Believing himself to be the slave of God,
he imitates his master,
and of all tyrants,
the worst is a slave in power."
--Robert Ingersoll

Regards
DL

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Look at history and ponder the Dark Ages.

During Europe's dark ages, the Islamic world was in a golden age in all areas and sciences. I don't see the point you're trying to make here.


How many need to die for imaginary beliefs and fictitious Gods?

http://quran.com/images/ayat_retina/2_256.png

There is no compulsion in religion.


"Whoever imagines himself a favorite with God,
holds other people in contempt.
Whenever a man believes that he has the exact truth from God,
there is in that man no spirit of compromise.
He has not the modesty born of the imperfections of human nature;
he has the arrogance of theological certainty and the tyranny born of ignorant assurance.
Believing himself to be the slave of God,
he imitates his master,
and of all tyrants,
the worst is a slave in power."
--Robert Ingersoll

Presumptuous, pretentious and droll.

[Skyhilist]

Why not? What's so wrong with Theism anyway?

"A boss in heaven is the best excuse for a boss on Earth." -Bakunin

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

"A boss in heaven is the best excuse for a boss on Earth." -Bakunin

That's silly and simplistic.

[Five Year Plan]

That's silly and simplistic.

Out of curiosity, what religion do you subscribe to? Avakianism?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Out of curiosity, what religion do you subscribe to? Avakianism?

No, that's just my politics, you heard the good news about BA too? That's cool. Religiously I am Muslim though. To answer your question.

[Creative Destruction]

there's nothing wrong with religion itself. it can be a salve for people, as Marx readily recognized. i still don't understand the antipathy of religion itself among many leftists. the targets should be institutions of oppression, not so much whether people believe in a higher being than themselves.

[Deep Sea]

Look at history and ponder the Dark Ages.

How many need to die for imaginary beliefs and fictitious Gods?

"Whoever imagines himself a favorite with God,
holds other people in contempt.
Whenever a man believes that he has the exact truth from God,
there is in that man no spirit of compromise.
He has not the modesty born of the imperfections of human nature;
he has the arrogance of theological certainty and the tyranny born of ignorant assurance.
Believing himself to be the slave of God,
he imitates his master,
and of all tyrants,
the worst is a slave in power."
--Robert Ingersoll

Regards
DL

The Ingersoll quote strikes me as very true, from several religious people I know personally. While it is not a universal tendency amongst Western religious people, there is a distinct tendency to come to a belief that everyone else in the world is sinful/evil, and only those in your inner-circle of religious adherents are free of this taint. I imagine this comes about more often after religious people feel like they have been incredibly wronged by someone or society.

[Skyhilist]

That's silly and simplistic.

I don't feel like writing paragraphs to explain in more depth, but I'm sure if you looked you'd see plenty of evidence linking belief in a supreme ruler to belief in rulers on earth.

If you want hard evidence of a problem with theism though... http://www.iflscience.com/brain/religious-children-struggle-separate-fact-fiction

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I don't feel like writing paragraphs to explain in more depth, but I'm sure if you looked you'd see plenty of evidence linking belief in a supreme ruler to belief in rulers on earth.

If you want hard evidence of a problem with theism though... http://www.iflscience.com/brain/religious-children-struggle-separate-fact-fiction

I sorted through your science and venom stuff if you do recall. I'm not that dumb. Plus, I personally think a belie in a higher power reinforces the basic idea of the equality of every individual in humanity being that no one os above another save God. It is this belief which I believe should lead one to question all historical epochs be it the ridiculousness of the fuedal class system or for example, my belief, that capitalism is Satanic, immoral and evil. All how you look at it really.

[Creative Destruction]

I don't feel like writing paragraphs to explain in more depth, but I'm sure if you looked you'd see plenty of evidence linking belief in a supreme ruler to belief in rulers on earth.

If you want hard evidence of a problem with theism though... http://www.iflscience.com/brain/religious-children-struggle-separate-fact-fiction

i'd reckon that most devout atheists in this country are probably either liberals or libertarians, who definitely believe in having rulers on earth (the welfare state and the capitalists, respectively.) meanwhile, you have christian anarchists, muslim communists (many in the the PKK), many religious or semi-observant Jews were communists and anarchists, so on and so forth.

[consuming negativity]

The original gods were human. Look at the Egyptians, Greeks, Indians, Romans, Norsemen... all humanoid gods with human emotions. Many of the rulers themselves were worshiped as gods. Government itself is actually slavery - a contract constantly being re-negotiated. Over time, people began forgetting the elaborate bullshit their neolithic slave-owners had taught them. Now, the God is different than us -- it's in the sky, and there's only one. And it is his decree that things are this way. The ruler is no different than you, but God has chosen the ruler. Now, as we begin to re-examine our re-examined bullshit, we see even more fallacies and lies printed as fact in religious books. The actual words, often by actually revolutionary figures who wanted to take and get rid of government, are then rewritten and used to support that same system of government. Except the believers have forgotten they were bullshitting and their children didn't really catch on. So now there are actual believers in the upper classes, while many of the lower classes have caught on, and since dropped all the bullshit behind them. And now, spirituality is individual, with everybody believing something personal that has decreed the world. But that's a lot harder to erase, because everyone's fairy tale is different and personalized because they made it for themselves. Hence, modernity.

Hell, I believe a ton of stupid bullshit that's probably just misfiring of synapses while on drugs. And that's it's strength... you don't have to get rid of it, because it changes over time to just justify the status quo. Once you change the status quo, the bullshit will adapt itself and everybody can keep on going.

[Alexios]

I don't feel like writing paragraphs to explain in more depth, but I'm sure if you looked you'd see plenty of evidence linking belief in a supreme ruler to belief in rulers on earth.

If you want hard evidence of a problem with theism though... http://www.iflscience.com/brain/religious-children-struggle-separate-fact-fiction
That's not really a problem with theism as much as it's a problem with superstition in general. Even organized religion can be empirical, or at least try to be.



Government itself is actually slavery - a contract constantly being re-negotiated. Over time, people began forgetting the elaborate bullshit their neolithic slave-owners had taught them. Now, the God is different than us -- it's in the sky, and there's only one. And it is his decree that things are this way. The ruler is no different than you, but God has chosen the ruler.

This seems like something of an oversimplification. Throughout the Middle Ages there were major controversies in the West over whether or not rulers were divinely ordained or merely the products of human decision (or "enlightened" decision). It was only in the Byzantine Empire and the realms influenced by it that rulers were seen without question to be chosen by God, a phenomenon that would later come out of the Reformation in the West.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Василиса Прекра (http://www.revleft.com/vb/can-modern-men-p2779542/member.php?u=62988)

You have a bit of a point on the Dark Age of the West being the enlightenment of the Eastern Muslims.

In noting the number of Nobel Prizes, I would say that the present day might be seen as Islam's Dark Ages.

Good drivers but poor thinkers seems to be what Islam will be know for if they do not get better and join the rest of the worlds thinking.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

"A boss in heaven is the best excuse for a boss on Earth." -Bakunin

How can people who adore a tyranny in heaven ever vote for democracies?

Could that be why the Middle East is having such a hard time?

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

That's silly and simplistic.

Yours seems to be the simplistic mind.

As above so below is recognized by basically all belief systems. It speaks of bringing heavenly laws to earth. After all, those would be the best laws. Right?

Regards
DL

[Ritzy Cat]

Huh?

"Those who toil and live in want all their lives are taught by religion to be submissive and patient while here on earth, and to take comfort in the hope of a heavenly reward. But those who live by the labour of others are taught by religion to practise charity while on earth, thus offering them a very cheap way of justifying their entire existence as exploiters and selling them at a moderate price tickets to well-being in heaven. Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man."
- Lenin

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm


idk just thought that was relatable or something lol

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

"Those who toil and live in want all their lives are taught by religion to be submissive and patient while here on earth, and to take comfort in the hope of a heavenly reward. But those who live by the labour of others are taught by religion to practise charity while on earth, thus offering them a very cheap way of justifying their entire existence as exploiters and selling them at a moderate price tickets to well-being in heaven. Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man."
- Lenin

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm


idk just thought that was relatable or something lol

If you had said that I would have said well put.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

there's nothing wrong with religion itself. it can be a salve for people, as Marx readily recognized. i still don't understand the antipathy of religion itself among many leftists. the targets should be institutions of oppression, not so much whether people believe in a higher being than themselves.

Perhaps they see things as I do.

I hope the font filter works.

For the evils of religion to grow, read any scripture literally.

Any and all harmless beliefs are allowed by Gnostic Christians. We know that any myth can be internalized for good results and as esoteric ecumenists, we enjoy knowledge of all the myths that man has created about Gods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D)


When there is a victim is when that view changes. Then you see why Christianity annihilated Gnostic Christianity. We do not let the evils of forced literalism go unopposed. To a tyrant like Constantine, we were poison. One of his first commands to his new Church was to kill off the free thinkers and of course, his new tool, his Church, did as bid. It was quite a ride for free thought for the next 1,000 years.

For the evils of religion to grow.

How can a Gnostic Christian, --- and any other free thinking moral person, --- not judge other's morals when seeing someone hurt other because of the same Church's teachings today?

Can you ignore such things if you have decent morals? Impossible. Especially with Islam pulling the same murderous, freedom stifling ****.

We must discriminate and judge constantly. Every law is a compulsion on all of us to judge.

It is my view that all right wing literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists, --- as well as those who do not believe. Literalists hurt their parent religions --- and everyone else, be he a believer or not. Literalists and the right wing of religions make us all into laughing stocks. Their God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution has got to go. So must beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic. These are all evil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHa...x=0&playnext=1

They also do much harm to their own fellow adherents.

African witches and Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9...eature=related

Jesus Camp 1of 3
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=48b_1185215493

Death to Gays.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Z...eature=related

For evil to grow my friend, all good people need do is nothing. Fight literalism when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

The Ingersoll quote strikes me as very true, from several religious people I know personally. While it is not a universal tendency amongst Western religious people, there is a distinct tendency to come to a belief that everyone else in the world is sinful/evil, and only those in your inner-circle of religious adherents are free of this taint. I imagine this comes about more often after religious people feel like they have been incredibly wronged by someone or society.

Perhaps but that cannot be those that now preach such a vile dogma.

No one has wronged them even though they deserve to be chastised for their inquisitions and never ending wars.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

The original gods were human. Look at the Egyptians, Greeks, Indians, Romans, Norsemen... all humanoid gods with human emotions. Many of the rulers themselves were worshiped as gods. Government itself is actually slavery - a contract constantly being re-negotiated. Over time, people began forgetting the elaborate bullshit their neolithic slave-owners had taught them. Now, the God is different than us -- it's in the sky, and there's only one. And it is his decree that things are this way. The ruler is no different than you, but God has chosen the ruler. Now, as we begin to re-examine our re-examined bullshit, we see even more fallacies and lies printed as fact in religious books. The actual words, often by actually revolutionary figures who wanted to take and get rid of government, are then rewritten and used to support that same system of government. Except the believers have forgotten they were bullshitting and their children didn't really catch on. So now there are actual believers in the upper classes, while many of the lower classes have caught on, and since dropped all the bullshit behind them. And now, spirituality is individual, with everybody believing something personal that has decreed the world. But that's a lot harder to erase, because everyone's fairy tale is different and personalized because they made it for themselves. Hence, modernity.

Hell, I believe a ton of stupid bullshit that's probably just misfiring of synapses while on drugs. And that's it's strength... you don't have to get rid of it, because it changes over time to just justify the status quo. Once you change the status quo, the bullshit will adapt itself and everybody can keep on going.

Your first is exactly right. This clip shows our real Gods showing their wills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez6wfJWVCeI

Regards
DL

[bropasaran]

How can modern men believe in a creator God?
Believing in any good supernatural creator entity should be quite the leap in logic..
Is it? The cosmological argument is a plain logical syllogism that's an argument for existence of an uncreated creator. Although, even if true, it's not an argument for any specific religion, views that it would firstly suggest would be some unspecified monism or an unspecified polytheism, or even a view that the creator doesn't exist any more.


even though they also often think the world has more evil than good in it.
Obviously, being Gnostic, you know that one doesn't have to have the view that the ultimate creator created this world. A lot of polytheistic religions don't, but believe that is some "lesser" god that created this world, and not the god that created other gods.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Is it? The cosmological argument is a plain logical syllogism that's an argument for existence of an uncreated creator. Although, even if true, it's not an argument for any specific religion, views that it would firstly suggest would be some unspecified monism or an unspecified polytheism, or even a view that the creator doesn't exist any more.


Obviously, being Gnostic, you know that one doesn't have to have the view that the ultimate creator created this world. A lot of polytheistic religions don't, but believe that is some "lesser" god that created this world, and not the god that created other gods.

Indeed. There can be many Gods of thee Gaps. Any flavor one wants when we are inventing them. That is why faith without facts is for fools.

Our myths do speak of other Gods to be seen as evil. They were created that way to make it easier to internalize and activate our single eye. Plus a hero always needs some adversary.

Today, and in reality, we know to blame the competition part of evolution.

We cannot help but do evil when evolution is factored in.

I did a long O.P. on Theistic Evolution but the font filters here make my saved files hard to read and then wont let me edit.

If you are not up on TE let me know and I will ugly the thread with my old O.P. for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXOvYn1OAL0&list=UUDXjzOeZRqLxhYaaEhWLb_A&index=9

Regards
DL