what if the American south rises again?

[consuming negativity]

Two separate questions here.

1. If the south rises again, should we support it?

2. If the south rises again, do you think it will end up race segregated again?

Bonus questions:

If they start getting uppity again post-revolution, would you support a campaign to re-tie their railroads into neck-ties?

Didn't Marx send a letter to Abraham Lincoln or whatever?

[Depardieu]

when people say "the south will rise again", what do you think they mean? would you support these people? i sure as fuck would not.

[Orange Juche]

Two separate questions here.

1. If the south rises again, should we support it?

2. If the south rises again, do you think it will end up race segregated again?

Bonus questions:

If they start getting uppity again post-revolution, would you support a campaign to re-tie their railroads into neck-ties?

Didn't Marx send a letter to Abraham Lincoln or whatever?

1. No, but it won't.

2. Yes it would.

3. Re-tie their railroads into neck-ties?

4. Yes, Marx penned a letter for some Workingmen's association congratulating him on his presidential victory in 1864. Though he'd personally penned him prior.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Since I live here, I can say with total conviction: It ain't happenin'.

One of the dirty little secrets about the South is that it soaks up more federal aid then any other region in the country. Were it to go solo and lose that aid, this entire region would devolve into a post-apocalyptic hellhole in about a decade.

So, you might here the occasional squabble from Southern politicians, but they know damn well that they need that sweet, sweet tax money.

[RedMaterialist]

Two separate questions here.

1. If the south rises again, should we support it?

2. If the south rises again, do you think it will end up race segregated again?

Bonus questions:

If they start getting uppity again post-revolution, would you support a campaign to re-tie their railroads into neck-ties?

Didn't Marx send a letter to Abraham Lincoln or whatever?

Being from the US south, I consider myself an expert. The south rose the first time as a tragedy. The latest rising, as the Tea Party, in 2008, is a farce.

The south, as well as most of the U.S., is still race segregated, especially in schools and housing.

The south has always been very populist. I think it will be more revolutionary that many people believe, except for the race issue. But even on race the South is a lot different than it was even 20 yrs ago. I would guess that there are far more mixed race marriages in the south than anywhere else in the US and that because it is mostly poor white and black kids who go to integrated schools.

I believe Marx did write a letter to Lincoln, but the president did not respond. Lincoln did, however, say in his first Inaugural Address that "labor was superior to capital."

[Non-Aligned]

Two separate questions here.

1. If the south rises again, should we support it?

2. If the south rises again, do you think it will end up race segregated again?

Bonus questions:

If they start getting uppity again post-revolution, would you support a campaign to re-tie their railroads into neck-ties?

Didn't Marx send a letter to Abraham Lincoln or whatever?

1: Depends on the nature of the uprising, is it against an out of control government? Sure, but with vigilance. Or is it for the glory of the past? Hell no. But in reality since moonshine is like water down there I doubt anything will ever occur either way.

2: Probably, humans beings in the time of crisis tend to stick with their own. It's how Nature made us.

[RedMaterialist]

1: Depends on the nature of the uprising, is it against an out of control government? Sure, but with vigilance. Or is it for the glory of the past? Hell no. But in reality since moonshine is like water down there I doubt anything will ever occur either way.

2: Probably, humans beings in the time of crisis tend to stick with their own. It's how Nature made us.

1. Crude stereotype.
2. Racism is not natural.

[consuming negativity]

3. Re-tie their railroads into neck-ties?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman's_neckties

"Sherman's neckties were a railway-destruction tactic used in the American Civil War. Named after Maj. Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman of the Union Army, Sherman's neckties were railway rails destroyed by heating them until they were malleable and twisting them into loops resembling neckties, often around trees. Since the Confederacy had limited supplies of iron, and few foundries to roll the rails, this destruction was very difficult to repair. They were also called Sherman's bow ties,[1] Sherman's hairpins or Jeff Davis hairpins.

The neckties were created in accordance with an explicit order from Sherman in his Atlanta Campaign, dated July 18, 1864:"

[Hrafn]

Well, better than Colombian neckties at least.

[PhoenixAsh]

Address of the International Working Men's Association to Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States of America

Presented to U.S. Ambassador Charles Francis Adams
January 28, 1865 [A]

Written: by Marx between November 22 & 29, 1864
First Published: The Bee-Hive Newspaper, No. 169, November 7, 1865;
Transcription/Markup: Zodiac/Brian Baggins;
Online Version: Marx & Engels Internet Archive (marxists.org) 2000.



Sir:

We congratulate the American people upon your re-election by a large majority. If resistance to the Slave Power was the reserved watchword of your first election, the triumphant war cry of your re-election is Death to Slavery.

From the commencement of the titanic American strife the workingmen of Europe felt instinctively that the star-spangled banner carried the destiny of their class. The contest for the territories which opened the dire epopee, was it not to decide whether the virgin soil of immense tracts should be wedded to the labor of the emigrant or prostituted by the tramp of the slave driver?

When an oligarchy of 300,000 slaveholders dared to inscribe, for the first time in the annals of the world, "slavery" on the banner of Armed Revolt, when on the very spots where hardly a century ago the idea of one great Democratic Republic had first sprung up, whence the first Declaration of the Rights of Man was issued, and the first impulse given to the European revolution of the eighteenth century; when on those very spots counterrevolution, with systematic thoroughness, gloried in rescinding "the ideas entertained at the time of the formation of the old constitution", and maintained slavery to be "a beneficent institution", indeed, the old solution of the great problem of "the relation of capital to labor", and cynically proclaimed property in man "the cornerstone of the new edifice" — then the working classes of Europe understood at once, even before the fanatic partisanship of the upper classes for the Confederate gentry had given its dismal warning, that the slaveholders' rebellion was to sound the tocsin for a general holy crusade of property against labor, and that for the men of labor, with their hopes for the future, even their past conquests were at stake in that tremendous conflict on the other side of the Atlantic. Everywhere they bore therefore patiently the hardships imposed upon them by the cotton crisis, opposed enthusiastically the proslavery intervention of their betters — and, from most parts of Europe, contributed their quota of blood to the good cause.

While the workingmen, the true political powers of the North, allowed slavery to defile their own republic, while before the Negro, mastered and sold without his concurrence, they boasted it the highest prerogative of the white-skinned laborer to sell himself and choose his own master, they were unable to attain the true freedom of labor, or to support their European brethren in their struggle for emancipation; but this barrier to progress has been swept off by the red sea of civil war.

The workingmen of Europe feel sure that, as the American War of Independence initiated a new era of ascendancy for the middle class, so the American Antislavery War will do for the working classes. They consider it an earnest of the epoch to come that it fell to the lot of Abraham Lincoln, the single-minded son of the working class, to lead his country through the matchless struggle for the rescue of an enchained race and the reconstruction of a social world. [B]

Signed on behalf of the International Workingmen's Association, the Central Council:

Longmaid, Worley, Whitlock, Fox, Blackmore, Hartwell, Pidgeon, Lucraft, Weston, Dell, Nieass, Shaw, Lake, Buckley, Osbourne, Howell, Carter, Wheeler, Stainsby, Morgan, Grossmith, Dick, Denoual, Jourdain, Morrissot, Leroux, Bordage, Bocquet, Talandier, Dupont, L.Wolff, Aldovrandi, Lama, Solustri, Nusperli, Eccarius, Wolff, Lessner, Pfander, Lochner, Kaub, Bolleter, Rybczinski, Hansen, Schantzenbach, Smales, Cornelius, Petersen, Otto, Bagnagatti, Setacci;

George Odger, President of the Council; P.V. Lubez, Corresponding Secretary for France; Karl Marx, Corresponding Secretary for Germany; G.P. Fontana, Corresponding Secretary for Italy; J.E. Holtorp, Corresponding Secretary for Poland; H.F. Jung, Corresponding Secretary for Switzerland; William R. Cremer, Honorary General Secretary.

18 Greek Street, Soho.

[A] From the minutes of the Central (General) Council of the International — November 19, 1864:

"Dr. Marx then brought up the report of the subcommittee, also a draft of the address which had been drawn up for presentation to the people of America congratulating them on their having re-elected Abraham Lincoln as President. The address is as follows and was unanimously agreed to."

[B] The minutes of the meeting continue:

"A long discussion then took place as to the mode of presenting the address and the propriety of having a M.P. with the deputation; this was strongly opposed by many members, who said workingmen should rely on themselves and not seek for extraneous aid.... It was then proposed... and carried unanimously. The secretary correspond with the United States Minister asking to appoint a time for receiving the deputation, such deputation to consist of the members of the Central Council."



********


Ambassador Adams Replies

Legation of the United States
London, 28th January, 1865

Sir:

I am directed to inform you that the address of the Central Council of your Association, which was duly transmitted through this Legation to the President of the United [States], has been received by him.

So far as the sentiments expressed by it are personal, they are accepted by him with a sincere and anxious desire that he may be able to prove himself not unworthy of the confidence which has been recently extended to him by his fellow citizens and by so many of the friends of humanity and progress throughout the world.

The Government of the United States has a clear consciousness that its policy neither is nor could be reactionary, but at the same time it adheres to the course which it adopted at the beginning, of abstaining everywhere from propagandism and unlawful intervention. It strives to do equal and exact justice to all states and to all men and it relies upon the beneficial results of that effort for support at home and for respect and good will throughout the world.

Nations do not exist for themselves alone, but to promote the welfare and happiness of mankind by benevolent intercourse and example. It is in this relation that the United States regard their cause in the present conflict with slavery, maintaining insurgence as the cause of human nature, and they derive new encouragements to persevere from the testimony of the workingmen of Europe that the national attitude is favored with their enlightened approval and earnest sympathies.

I have the honor to be, sir, your obedient servant,

Charles Francis Adams


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/iwma/documents/1864/lincoln-letter.htm

[Creative Destruction]

Two separate questions here.

1. If the south rises again, should we support it?

depends on the nature of the uprising. the south, particularly Appalachia, has been the stage for some pretty historic labor struggles, including the battle of blair mountain. if it's of that nature, and it cuts across racial lines (that is, it's not white workers rising up against black workers and what not), then i'd say we should, with caution.


2. If the south rises again, do you think it will end up race segregated again?

it's incredibly segregated right now. there are still segregated proms in some areas. this is something that would have to be addressed in the uprising.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

If the south rises again, I'd check the weather in hell because it might be snowing.

As to the second question, I don't see why de jure racism would be accepted necessarily, aside from crude stereotypes of what Southern whites are like.

[leontrosky]

Clearly it's not going to happen and if it does happen then they will collapse within a matter of months because socialism will reach it and the hooligans that will be running it would be overthrown and repatriate.

[leontrosky]

Won't happen because the hooligans who would run it would be overthrown by the idea of socialism and the south would repatriate in a matter of months

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Two separate questions here.

1. If the south rises again, should we support it?

No, not unless we can use it as an excuse to hijack US and Confederate railway cars and wagon convoys and steal all their loot and moneys.


2. If the south rises again, do you think it will end up race segregated again?

Never lived in southern America but I wanna say no.


Bonus questions:

If they start getting uppity again post-revolution, would you support a campaign to re-tie their railroads into neck-ties?

Yes absolutely.


Didn't Marx send a letter to Abraham Lincoln or whatever?

I think so but idk for sure.

[Red Economist]

I'm sure Fox News will lead the charge and Glenn Beck will become President of the New Confederate States of America, and it's anthem will be "Stars, Stripes and Obama hatred forever".

More interesting question is who gets to keep the nuclear arsenal of the US? Will the Tea Party go Nuclear? F**k that's a scary future. :crying:

[John Nada]

1. If the south rises again, should we support it?Of course not, seeing as I died fighting the bastards. ;) And they'd probable have nationwide ambitions this time.
2. If the south rises again, do you think it will end up race segregated again?Already segregated. If anything, they'd bring back slavery or commit genocide against minorities.
If they start getting uppity again post-revolution, would you support a campaign to re-tie their railroads into neck-ties?Maybe of the Colombian variety. However a part of me would like to see the south leave. Then when they fuck their economy and try to immigrant to the US, get treated like they treat Latinos now, lol.

[The Red Star Rising]

I'm sure Fox News will lead the charge and Glenn Beck will become President of the New Confederate States of America, and it's anthem will be "Stars, Stripes and Obama hatred forever".

More interesting question is who gets to keep the nuclear arsenal of the US? Will the Tea Party go Nuclear? F**k that's a scary future. :crying:
If I'm not mistaken most of America's Nuclear arsenal is out of the hands of any potential neoconfederates.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Given that the interests of the southern and northern are substantially the same, I think the world should fear "the South rising again" about as much as another Jacobite rebellion or the restoration of the kingdom of Arelat.

[The Red Star Rising]

Given that the interests of the southern and northern are substantially the same, I think the world should fear "the South rising again" about as much as another Jacobite rebellion or the restoration of the kingdom of Arelat.
We are talking about the same home of rabid, foaming at the mouth Dominionists who consider Science to be the work of Satan and Democracy (http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/democracy_bad.htm) to be a rejection of god, right?

More to the point, the American south is economically speaking a parasite, sucking in the most aid while providing the least to the continued function of the state. Without the West and the North the Bib An attempted second American civil war would be over before it started.

[BIXX]

Clearly it's not going to happen and if it does happen then they will collapse within a matter of months because socialism will reach it and the hooligans that will be running it would be overthrown and repatriate.


Are you high? There is no socialism to reach the "hooligans".

[Slavic]

We are talking about the same home of rabid, foaming at the mouth Dominionists who consider Science to be the work of Satan and Democracy (http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/democracy_bad.htm) to be a rejection of god, right?

What a gross generalization

That's basically the same thing as saying Northerners are whiny liberal Prius driving city dwellers.

[Atsumari]

This is the future according to Ghost in the Shell
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/GitS-Appleseed_Imperial_America_2030.png

[adipocere]

I recall about 15+ years ago being in a Lousiana swamp feeding marshmallows to alligators and seeing a dilapidated white shack on the side of the river that could only be reached by boat. The pier was festooned with confederate flags. Across the front was painted in big black letters; "The South Shall Rise Again"

I remember thinking...welp, if this rotten Klan shack is any indication, the south wont be "rising again" anytime soon.

I would be wary of anyone using that phrase - I've never seen it used outside explicitly racist connotations.

[BIXX]

This is the future according to Ghost in the Shell
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/GitS-Appleseed_Imperial_America_2030.png


Bullshit. Washington state would be in the Russo-American Alliance.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

We are talking about the same home of rabid, foaming at the mouth Dominionists who consider Science to be the work of Satan and Democracy (http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/democracy_bad.htm) to be a rejection of god, right?

The one and the same. And, stereotypes (as I recall it Atlanta, for example, has one of the largest concentrations of gay families in America) aside, the course of history is determined by struggles between classes and sections of classes, and the interests of the imperialist bourgeoisie in North Carolina are the same as the interests of the imperialist bourgeoisie in New York or in Arizona etc. Some idiot waving around what he thinks is the Confederate flag won't change that.

The civil war was possible because the American state encompassed two economic systems at that point, an industrial capitalism in the North and an economy based on resource extraction by slave labour in the South. That is no longer the case.


More to the point, the American south is economically speaking a parasite, sucking in the most aid while providing the least to the continued function of the state. Without the West and the North the Bib An attempted second American civil war would be over before it started.

I think this is problematic on many levels - first by implicitly drawing an equivalence between receiving aid and parasitism, and secondly by focusing on "providing... to the continued function of the state". That is not the measure of capitalist success - profit is. Southern businesses, which include some of the most successful imperialist entities (Coca-Cola for example), make a profit. And it is certainly no concern of our - contributing to the functioning of the state is not "good".

[levifeldman]

If the "south" were to rise, it would be something I personally couldn't support. For such a travesty to come to fruition much blood would undeniably have to be shed. Alot of this country's foremost civil rights advocates reside in the southern US. Men like Morris Dees, resident of Georgia, would stand against any such succession and more than likely would be gunned down by those stupid enough to believe a confederacy could even be a reality again. This would probably excite the ignorant racists to commit likeminded crimes. Blah, blah, blah point in case, the entire hypothetical scenario plays out as something ridiculous and beyond a rational mind's support.