Parties in England.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

What's the current state on the ground comrades? I've been living in Scotland for the past year but will be moving back down to London soon and want to be as active as possible with any parties and groups that seem to be on the ball.

[The Idler]

There's a lot of SPGB activity in London.

[The Feral Underclass]

There's a lot of SPGB activity in London.

You've kept that quiet.

[The Feral Underclass]

There is currently no Maoist organisation that is not full of bat-shit crazy people, which is sad.

[The Idler]

You've kept that quiet.You've kept the LCI even quieter.

[The Feral Underclass]

You've kept the LCI even quieter.


Perhaps, but then again I'm not pretending we have "a lot of activity in London."

[The Idler]

Perhaps, but then again I'm not pretending we have "a lot of activity in London."
There is a lot of SPGB activity in London in the coming month. Take the chip on your shoulder elsewhere.

[The Feral Underclass]

There is a lot of SPGB activity in London in the coming month. Take the chip on your shoulder elsewhere.

There's a lot of activity coming up is rather a u-turn from there is a lot of activity, don't you think?

And a chip on my shoulder? Don't flatter yourself.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

There is currently no Maoist organisation that is not full of bat-shit crazy people, which is sad.

What's it called? I like crazy things.

[The Feral Underclass]

What's it called? I like crazy things.


The Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist). There is another one, but I forget the name.

Here is their website which hasn't been renovated since 1998: http://www.rcpbml.org.uk/

[The Idler]

There's a lot of activity coming up is rather a u-turn from there is a lot of activity, don't you think?

And a chip on my shoulder? Don't flatter yourself.
Nope, no u-turn, there's is short for there is and we are four days from the coming month. You're nitpicking because of the big chip on your shoulder. You seem focused on criticising other groups and the criticism is never constructive.

[The Feral Underclass]

Nope, no u-turn, there's is short for there is and we are four days from the coming month. You're nitpicking because of the big chip on your shoulder. You seem focused on criticising other groups and the criticism is never constructive.

Here is some constructive criticism: Disband your political organisation and change your politics. If you're not prepared to do that, then you will just have to deal with the negative criticism. Especially when you try and inflate your party's significance.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

The Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist). There is another one, but I forget the name.

Here is their website which hasn't been renovated since 1998: http://www.rcpbml.org.uk/

This is awesome.

[The Idler]

Here is some constructive criticism: Disband your political organisation and change your politics. If you're not prepared to do that, then you will just have to deal with the negative criticism. Especially when you try and inflate your party's significance.
Your snide attitude will get you nowhere. The only thing being inflated is the chip on your shoulder.

[The Feral Underclass]

Your snide attitude will get you nowhere.

It's done me well so far.

[Futility Personified]

The Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist). There is another one, but I forget the name.

Here is their website which hasn't been renovated since 1998: http://www.rcpbml.org.uk/

I can imagine a wrinkly old scrotal peanut of a man presiding so proudly over that website. He alone will survive the singularity.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

All I think TAT is saying is if it's just like 5-10 people just say me and my friends or something. Idkkk

[Orange Juche]

Take the chip on your shoulder elsewhere.

Don't you mean crisps?

[The Feral Underclass]

Don't you mean crisps?


Nah chip. As in fish and chips.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

wow revleft has gone downhill. cheers guyz

[Orange Juche]

wow revleft has gone downhill. cheers guyz

Cheers, Mr. Cool Guy! :thumbup1:

[LiaSofia]

There are too many political parties in England and none of them are large enough to be effective.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Well it depends what you're looking for. As Idler said, the SPGB has a presence in London and so does the CPGB so if you're looking to discuss intricate theory those might be port's of call. If you're looking to get involved in some campaigns or whatever I know the CWI is looking to launch a campaign for a £10/hr minimum wage and I can put you into contact with CWI comrades in London if that's your sort of thing (there are several branches so you'd probably be easily able to get to at least one of them).

Most leftist parties or organisations have a presence in London; SWP, Left Unity, AFED, CPB, IWW etc. What exactly are you looking for?

[The Feral Underclass]

the CWI is looking to launch a campaign for a £10/hr minimum wage

Why not £20? Or £30? Hell, why not £100 an hour?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Why not £20? Or £30? Hell, why not £100 an hour?
It's part of judging what is achievable so we can fight for something that might genuinely improve the lives of a huge section of the working class, myself included since I'm on £6.31/hr, but also in the process reveal the contradictions of capitalism and question the system itself. It's something tangible to organise around and develop the struggle.

[The Feral Underclass]

It's part of judging what is achievable so we can fight for something that might genuinely improve the lives of a huge section of the working class, myself included since I'm on £6.31/hr

Establishing a £10 minimum wage is about as achievable as establishing £100 minimum wage. Minimum wage increases are not something you can just decide to implement. That's not how wages work.


but also in the process reveal the contradictions of capitalism and question the system itself.

How does it achieve that?


It's something tangible to organise around and develop the struggle.

A £10 minimum wage is not tangible. It is an appeal to populism designed by the CWI to attract members. If that's how you define "developing the struggle" then I guess populist rhetoric is the least of your worries.

[Q]

Ontopic: This is the page (http://eng.anarchopedia.org/List_of_Left-Wing_Parties_in_the_United_Kingdom) that has all leftwing groups and parties in the UK (currently down, again).

Offtopic:

It's part of judging what is achievable so we can fight for something that might genuinely improve the lives of a huge section of the working class, myself included since I'm on £6.31/hr, but also in the process reveal the contradictions of capitalism and question the system itself. It's something tangible to organise around and develop the struggle.
Let's not kid ourselves: The SPEW took up this demand in the wake of the moderate success the $15/hour campaign has had in the US (mostly just in Seattle). There is no political framework around this. It's politicised union work at best which, as TAT mentions is undoubtedly going to attract a lot of fresh meat.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind a campaign that fights for a 10 pound/hour wage, in fact it is quite important indeed. But if that is the essense of the platform (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/partydoc/What_We_Stand_For), then you might be wondering where the politics is: Where the political takeover of the proletariat? Where is the undermining of the existing international hierarchy of states? The battle for democracy?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Of course it isn't something that could just be implemented straight away but the struggle for higher wages has always been an arena workers fight within that improves their living conditions and, more importantly for socialists, develops class conciousness. Just as a struggle to get rid of an unfair tax could potentially offer areas to organise. But these sorts of struggles, across many different workplaces and industries, express the resistance offered by the working class to capitalist exploitation. And, yes, the success of the $15/hr campaign in Seattle is something to learn from and take inspiration from, especially considering around 100,000 people have potentially been brought out from the poverty line thanks to the campaign.

It can't be denied that the struggle against unjust distribution of wealth is a key factor leading some workers into the socialist movement. But the socialist movement doesn't just struggle for the suppression of capitalist exploitation by itself but the suppression of the capitalist mode of production altogether. I'd go so far as to say that we openly admit to expressing the idea that we cannot suppress the law of wages but rather impose through struggle a limit to that exploitation and that fundamentally the exploitation will still remain unless the working class seize power for themselves and fight for socialism. These are pretty much the exact words I've used when talking to people about the potential for such a campaign. This isn't some Bernstein-esque capitulation to reformism but a recognition that this is something the working class, currently in a period of malaise in the UK, can effectively organise around to develop conciousness and call into question the very system that denies them of the value of their labour in the first place.

The fight for a £10 wage is something definitely tangible. I know for a fact that the place I work could pay everyone that works there at least £10/hr and still make a profit and so does everyone I work with. If the companies deny this ability then we make the demand that they open their books up to scrutiny. These are the sorts of demands that I believe are a bridge to the general demands of socialism.

[The Feral Underclass]

Of course it isn't something that could just be implemented straight away

It can't be implemented at all. Of course it may very well reach £10, but only in line with inflation. Wages are not dependent upon political will, they are dependent upon the economics of capitalism.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I can't believe you edited your post to get rid of the quote by Mises. You should read Value, Price and Profit as opposed to Mises. There's a whole section on why workers should be fighting for higher wages. Your complete capitulation to inaction is a detriment to the movement for socialism.

"On the basis of the present system labour is only a commodity like others. It must, therefore, pass through the same fluctuations to fetch an average price corresponding to its value. It would be absurd to treat it on the one hand like a commodity, and to want on the other hand to exempt it from the laws which regulate the prices of commodities. The slave receives a permanent and fixed amount of maintenance; the wage labourer does not. He must try to get a rise of wages in the one instance, if only to compensate for a fall of wages in the other. If he resigned himself only to accept the will, the dictates of the capitalist as a permanent economic law, he would share in all the miseries of the slave, without the security of the slave."

[The Feral Underclass]

I can't believe you edited your post to get rid of the quote by Mises. You should read Value, Price and Profit as opposed to Mises. There's a whole section on why workers should be fighting for higher wages. Your complete capitulation to inaction is a detriment to the movement for socialism.

I like that you draw the conclusion that being opposed to reformist demands is "complete capitulation to inaction."


"On the basis of the present system labour is only a commodity like others. It must, therefore, pass through the same fluctuations to fetch an average price corresponding to its value.

In other words we should attempt to reform capitalism.


It would be absurd to treat it on the one hand like a commodity, and to want on the other hand to exempt it from the laws which regulate the prices of commodities.

Unless you're a communist and believe in forwarding the objective of abolishing the wage system altogether.


The slave receives a permanent and fixed amount of maintenance; the wage labourer does not. He must try to get a rise of wages in the one instance, if only to compensate for a fall of wages in the other. If he resigned himself only to accept the will, the dictates of the capitalist as a permanent economic law, he would share in all the miseries of the slave, without the security of the slave."

First of all, calling for a £3.39 wage increase is not a challenge to the dictates of capitalism. Secondly, the working class would get further if they actually organised themselves to, you know, control the means of production, rather than asking the bourgeoisie for a fractional increase in the compensation for their exploitation.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Even if a higher minimum wage could be implemented, I don't see how that alone causes people to call into question any of the basic features of capitalism. In fact, if one campaigns for a wage increase, and then receives it, it seems like that would only reinforce the legitimacy of the existing political system.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I like that you draw the conclusion that being opposed to reformist demands is "complete capitulation to inaction."
I had initially written that phrase considering your quoting of Mises since the political conclusions that Mises draws is that the working class should put up and shut up as that's exactly how the system is supposed to work.


In other words we should attempt to reform capitalism.

Unless you're a communist and believe in forwarding the objective of abolishing the wage system altogether.
I take the conclusions of Rosa Luxemburg in Reform or Revolution. Socialists don't fight in trade unions, for higher wages or in other political forms because they think that bourgeois democracy can give us socialism or whatever but because, through the very process of struggle, the working class develops class conciousness and potentially even the organs of working class control. In my experience the CWI is usually quite open about this but you might have experienced something contrary. That's your prerogative.


First of all, calling for a £3.39 wage increase is not a challenge to the dictates of capitalism. Secondly, the working class would get further if they actually organised themselves to, you know, control the means of production, rather than asking the bourgeoisie for a fractional increase in the compensation for their exploitation.
I believe that there are huge swathes of workers, particularly in part-time, low-wage jobs, that just aren't organised at all. I also believe that the process of organising these people around goals that can be achievable would be a positive step for the workers movement and give many of these workers the confidence and tools to organise in other matters.


Even if a higher minimum wage could be implemented, I don't see how that alone causes people to call into question any of the basic features of capitalism. In fact, if one campaigns for a wage increase, and then receives it, it seems like that would only reinforce the legitimacy of the existing political system.
It's not the winning of the wage itself that would develop class conciousness but the process of struggle. There's a lull in struggle in the UK and I believe that a fight for a higher minimum wage could expose huge swathes of the working class to ideas they might never even have heard of before.

[The Idler]

All I think TAT is saying is if it's just like 5-10 people just say me and my friends or something. Idkkk
SPGB activity in London isn't small numbers. Recent debates have been quite well-attended. The debate against Peter Tatchell in a hall was in three figures I think.

[TC]

I'm curious:

What function or service do small leftist parties serve in a country like the UK where they have minimal educational reach or credibility and do not attempt to contest state power (through either legal or extralegal means) nor do they have any credible plans to build the capacity to do so (if anything they've been splitting into smaller and smaller groups)?

I'm trying to be provocative in the sense of being thought provoking, but I'm not trying to be hostile. I'm interested in where the added value is. I do not assume that there is no value because I recognize that many people are deeply committed to them. They still matter to many people, so I ask what matters about them.

Thanks!

[The Idler]

I'm curious:

What function or service do small leftist parties serve in a country like the UK where they have minimal educational reach or credibility and do not attempt to contest state power (through either legal or extralegal means) nor do they have any credible plans to build the capacity to do so (if anything they've been splitting into smaller and smaller groups)?

I'm trying to be provocative in the sense of being thought provoking, but I'm not trying to be hostile. I'm interested in where the added value is. I do not assume that there is no value because I recognize that many people are deeply committed to them. They still matter to many people, so I ask what matters about them.

Thanks!
Small parties can become large parties. I'm not saying this is the function of being small for all parties. You may find small parties staying small for all sorts of stupid reasons. Perhaps because they see the party as a group of their friends and unable to accommodate disagreers or the unfriendly. Some parties cultivate a smallness so they can see themselves as elite and massage one anothers intellect. Some parties stay small because they are afraid or insincere about capturing political power even if they preach minority seizure of power. Systematic Ideology went into ideological reasons for the relative support for various parties so you might want to look into Beyond Politics by George Walford (http://gwiep.net/wp/?p=85).