Oh, PETA, for fuck's sakes....

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

You know that whole water problem up in Detroit?

Well, PETA has declared that they will pay the water bills for ten families in Detroit....as long as they go vegan for one month. (http://www.peta.org/blog/peta-pay-peoples-water-bills/)

OK....two things:

First, if this is just a publicity stunt, then it makes PETA out to bwhat I've already thought they were; Namely, assholes. If they're serious, then they're even bigger assholes because that is mafia levels of tit-for-tat.

Second, many of the affected parts in Detroit are food deserts. If you seriously expect these people to stay vegan for a whole month, you had better be airdropping supplies every couple of days, because otherwise that promise is gonna get broken pretty damn quick.

[Sinister Intents]

My ex would love and support them doing this even more so. PeTA just shows itself to be a disgusting organization more and more.

[Rosa Partizan]

one more reason to find PETA disgusting, and I know many vegans that think so. They try to play off issues like sexism and the holocaust against animal rights and it's just embarassing. Why can't you adress animal rights without making a total prick out of yourself? I mean, other organisations can, but they're not that powerful, unfortunately.

[The Red Star Rising]

I've maintained that PETA is the greatest enemy of the animal rights movement for a few years now. More than any carnivore movement or even the meat industry, PETA's flagrant, colossal, sheer, and flaming stupidity damages the movement in the arena of public opinion. The fact that they're gigantic hypocrites who euthanise massive numbers of animals and sacrifice actually effective tactics for pointless grandstanding makes the work of actual animal rights activists so much harder.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

As a real an legitimate member of PeTA (not PETA), I will say, fuck off. Amazing how poor families in India manage to have vegetarian and vegan diets but of course, in America, class and status are measured in meats and glutens and bacon and shit. There is nothing disgusting about this at all. Like, wow. I would totally do this and I'm pretty sure even with my food stamp amount being fucked up currently, could go vegan, if I wanted. Stfu. Honestly.

[The Red Star Rising]

As a real an legitimate member of PeTA (not PETA), I will say, fuck off. Amazing how poor families in India manage to have vegetarian and vegan diets but of course, in America, class and status are measured in meats and glutens and bacon and shit. There is nothing disgusting about this at all. Like, wow. I would totally do this and I'm pretty sure even with my food stamp amount being fucked up currently, could go vegan, if I wanted. Stfu. Honestly.
The main issue I believe people are having is that PETA is taking the plight of these people and not only using it as a chance to crassly grandstand, but also essentially holding basic essentials to living at ransom.

[Rosa Partizan]

As a real an legitimate member of PeTA (not PETA), I will say, fuck off. Amazing how poor families in India manage to have vegetarian and vegan diets but of course, in America, class and status are measured in meats and glutens and bacon and shit. There is nothing disgusting about this at all. Like, wow. I would totally do this and I'm pretty sure even with my food stamp amount being fucked up currently, could go vegan, if I wanted. Stfu. Honestly.

no one's saying that eating vegan would be bad for these families. Of course it's not. I don't know how it's in the US, but here, eating healthy and vegan is rather some symbol of "status" than eating meat and glutens and stuff. The part that sucks is that they attach strings to their "welfare", in favor of their own publicity. PeTA has a long history of disgusting publicity campaigns, be it this holocaust comparison or "your vegan boyfriend that fucked you so hard you broke your neck", and lately they adressed something like "autism with children is linked to milk consumption", which was "backed" by a totally ridiculous study with only 20 participants. Basically, there is no problem with going vegan with not so much money, but I consider it some really bad publicity stunt.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

The main issue I believe people are having is that PETA is taking the plight of these people and not only using it as a chance to crassly grandstand, but also essentially holding basic essentials to living at ransom.

It's called having morals and respect. I mean, here PeTA, is offering to help people while simultaneously spreading the message of having some semblance of respect for the ecosystem and other sentient non-human animals and you people, some of whom are from the petty bourgeois and places of privelages, using this and twisting it to role play some classist bullshit pretentiousness. That's what's lame. You hipster fucks. Omg eat healthy and humanely and get free water. Which woul mean they then could save up their money, put it towards other things and get ahead a little bit. You're right, what assholes.

[Revolver]

I agree that this is ridiculous, but I would just caution that the food desert line is just wrong or misleading. Detroit does not have many chains, that much is true, but there are over a hundred full service grocery stores and many of them are affiliated with national chains (i.e., Spartan foods). Now there are pricing issues and there may be selection problems with produce and other healthy foods within those stores, but the absence of a national chain does not a food desert make.

[LiaSofia]

The main issue I believe people are having is that PETA is taking the plight of these people and not only using it as a chance to crassly grandstand, but also essentially holding basic essentials to living at ransom.

This.

If you're going to do something charitable then just do it. Don't make a fuss, and do it unconditionally. The organisation doesn't care about these families, they just see them as pawns to generate publicity. It's an exploitative use of the problems in Detroit.

Also, what is it meant to achieve aside from publicity? One month of enforced veganism isn't going to help the animal rights movement.

[LiaSofia]

I should also add that I'm vegan. I don't know whether this is true for the US, but in the UK healthier food generally does cost more. Meat can be expensive, yes, but foods that are high in protein and staples of many vegan diets aren't always cheap or easy to find.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I should also add that I'm vegan. I don't know whether this is true for the US, but in the UK healthier food generally does cost more. Meat can be expensive, yes, but foods that are high in protein and staples of many vegan diets aren't always cheap or easy to find.

In the US, I've been homeless and vegetarian. It's not that hard.

[LiaSofia]

Vegetarian isn't that hard but vegan is more difficult.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Vegetarian isn't that hard but vegan is more difficult.

No is not, I just wasn't ethically vegan the time. I could do the same and be vegan.

[Rosa Partizan]

I know people here that are vegans and healthy and they have food expenses far less than 150$/month. It's just important that you're willing to cook by yourself. That soy meat stuff is only expensive when bought "ready to eat" (don't know better expression, you know what I mean).

[Lord Testicles]

As a real an legitimate member of PeTA (not PETA), I will say, fuck off. Amazing how poor families in India manage to have vegetarian and vegan diets but of course, in America, class and status are measured in meats and glutens and bacon and shit. There is nothing disgusting about this at all. Like, wow. I would totally do this and I'm pretty sure even with my food stamp amount being fucked up currently, could go vegan, if I wanted. Stfu. Honestly.

Fuck you, "manage" or have little choice?

Apart from the fact that religion plays a role in the diet of people in India. I'm sure the fact that a large section of people can't afford enough food to properly sustain themselves has more to do with it.

I truly find it puzzling that people who think that their diet is political or that anyone else cares how little meat they eat point to India as if it doesn't have some of the worst starvation and malnutrition in the world, as if 3000 people don't die there every day due to a lack of food.

As for PeTA, what should we expect from an organisation which will use any situation to shamelessly promote itself? If PeTA really gave a fuck then it would just pay these people's bills and buy them a weeks worth of vegan shopping or some shit.

Fuck PeTA and fuck it's piece of shit membership.

[Dagoth Ur]

How were you homeless and vegetarian Vox? I can barely afford the shit fake-food that doesn't even really contain meat (well any meat anyone should be eating). It sounds like there is something you're not mentioning here.

[RedRev]

OK, this is the shit that makes people hate vegans/vegetarians. And I'm a vegetarian, so I call bullshit on this one

[LiaSofia]

That hasn't been my experience. What have I been doing wrong? :unsure:


How were you homeless and vegetarian Vox? I can barely afford the shit fake-food that doesn't even really contain meat (well any meat anyone should be eating). It sounds like there is something you're not mentioning here.

Dumpster diving maybe? It is true that supermarkets throw loads of good food away...

[Dagoth Ur]

Yeah but that's pretty dangerous because they throw away hazardous chemicals as well. And besides that's not a very good argument for the affordability of vegan/vegetarian options. And I'm saying this as a single person with no children to take care of and feed.

[LiaSofia]

Yeah but that's pretty dangerous because they throw away hazardous chemicals as well. And besides that's not a very good argument for the affordability of vegan/vegetarian options. And I'm saying this as a single person with no children to take care of and feed.

I know, I wasn't recommending it as an option for poor people, I was just speculating how a person could be homeless and vegan.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

How were you homeless and vegetarian Vox? I can barely afford the shit fake-food that doesn't even really contain meat (well any meat anyone should be eating). It sounds like there is something you're not mentioning here.

I've earned 40 bucks standing on a intersection with a sign. Not hard. Fresh fruits and vegetables, church people love to give out pb&j, granola bars and shit. I mean there's lots of ways. Again, not that hard. People make vegetarianism way ore difficult than it has to be.

[Dagoth Ur]

So you had a whole free day to mosey around and find food. How's this equate to the worker who makes 40 dollars (that they'll get in two weeks) by working and has no time to go around looking for essentially give away vegan food? It seems, if anything, your vegetarianism was aided by being homeless not in spite of it.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

So you had a whole free day to mosey around and find food. How's this equate to the worker who makes 40 dollars (that they'll get in two weeks) by working and has no time to go around looking for essentially give away vegan food? It seems, if anything, your vegetarianism was aided by being homeless not in spite of it.

First of all, not everyone gets paid every two weeks. People on SSI or similar get fixed incomes get paid all in one month. Or my job, I get paid every week. Doesn't really matter. As someone else pointed out, people duck up by trying to get pre-cooked, pre-packaged meals or meat substitutes. It's much easier to simplify, bring it down to basics and such. I've saved a lot by baking my own bread for example. There's little things you can do, you know. Plus if you cut out booze, drugs, clothes, tattoos, tobacco and other frivolous shit. There is also food banks and churches also give out free food, and I actually had the most delicious quiche from some Methodists the other day. Again, assuming your not some lazy idiot making excuses, it's not hard.

Salvation Army has vegetarian options sometimes at their meals too.

[M-L-C-F]

Fuck PETA, and fuck animal liberationists while we're at it. This publicity stunt is absolutely bullshit of them. Conditional help is almost worse than not helping. Forcing people to be vegan or vegetarian in a food desert is absolute nonsense. It's hard to eat cheaply and healthy, and it also not suck, as it is. Add the problem of the urban food desert, and it's even more difficult.

I'm all for the better treatment of animals. But I hate people like those jackasses. Spoiled 1st world twats like PETA, are nothing like vegetarians or vegans in the 3rd world. There are legitimate groups for the betterment of animals, but PETA is not one of them. Just like how there are legitimate 1st world vegetarians and vegans, but these assholes aren't it.

I like eating meat, and will always eat meat. If someone wants to be vegetarian or vegan, they can do so. But don't force it on other people, especially while dangling aid in front of them. I don't even mind vegetarian or vegan cuisine either. I treat it like I do having Mexican, Chinese, getting pizza, or whatever. I don't eat it everyday, but I enjoy having it now and then.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Fuck PETA
Amen.

[Loony Le Fist]

Let me make my position clear.

PeTA has no right to hold a scarce resource hostage from poor needy people to promote their agenda. Period, end of fucking sentence. There is no justification for this.

That said, people must lie and take the water anyway. What are they going to do? Put a PeTA agent in people's houses to see if they aren't eating meat? Take the water and they can blow it out their arse!

[Emelia666]

PETA sucks. Not only are they dumb enough to try that, they also kill the animals that they keep claiming to protect. They are a disgrace to vegans and make us all look like idiots.

[fgilbert2]

If the Workers' Solidarity Party had offered to pay water bills in exchange for the families passing out the Weekly World Solidarity newspaper, would we still be having this conversation? If so, good. If not, much ado about nothing.

[Loony Le Fist]

If the Workers' Solidarity Party had offered to pay water bills in exchange for the families passing out the Weekly World Solidarity newspaper, would we still be having this conversation? If so, good. If not, much ado about nothing.

No one has a right to hold a resource hostage like that. Under any circumstances. For any reason.

In either case, it's stupid. I would just say yes, take the water, and do whatever I feel like. Though I might hand out the flyers of some organization I believe in, if they make it a condition of receiving water, I would take the water, agree, then promptly tear up the flyers then say I handed them out. I would not promote an organization that would ever hold a resource hostage. Ever. This applies to any organization, not just PeTA.

[rylasasin]

And on top of that, it isn't like veganism is really going to accomplish much of anything anyway. Not under Capitalism.

Oh sure you might stop the suffering of an animal or two if you get 100 people to go vegan, but even if the quite frankly rediculous PeTA dream of turning everyone (or at least the majority of people) into vegans were to succeed in the end, all you'll wind up doing is trading one set of environment damaging Bourgeoisie with another set of environment damaging Bourgeoisie. AT BEST.
When it comes right down to it, all it basically amounts to is ridiculous liberal bourgeois moralism and "Voat wit ur dullarz!" nonsense.

If you want to be a vegan to improve your own health, or you just really like the way plants taste or you (somehow) find it cheaper than a diet with meat, or some other personal reason, then good for you. If you think that by being vegan and trying to convince others to go vegan that you are ultimately going to accomplish some grand scheme of preventing needless animal suffering, and/or trying to save the environment from the damage that capitalist industries cause by voting with your dollars, then you are deluding yourself.

If you really want to stop needless animal suffering or stop enviornmental damage, first worry about liberating the means of production for the workers, and putting the capitalist class and the profit motive out to pasture. THEN we can talk about how moral or immoral our breakfast, lunch, and dinner choices are when we are making food for human need rather than profit motive.

[consuming negativity]

This thread sucks. PETA are subject to the same lies and smears that communists, feminists, and plenty of other genuinely good groups of people are subject to. They're baseless. Yeah this is dumb - they can't even get water and you think they have access to good food? But this kind of shit can only even exist in a society where people can't even afford their fucking water bills in the first place. I didn't even know Detroit was having this problem until you posted this article - at the very least, they're making the plight of the people known. But if we get treated this bad, what do you think it's like to be an animal? This is like when people on the internet try to tell me what communism /actually/ is, like I've never heard of Stalin and they're totally going to enlighten me. No, sorry, step the fuck off.

[Quail]

If you really want to stop needless animal suffering, first worry about liberating the means of production for the workers, and putting the capitalist class and the profit motive out to pasture. THEN we can talk about how moral or immoral our breakfast, lunch, and dinner choices are when we are making food for human need rather than profit motive.

You can have more than one focus, you know... To me, animal liberation implies human liberation, so I don't see why you can't advocate for both.

[exeexe]

well you shouldnt eat meat when you cant drink water. Consuming proteins cost a lot of water. So that settles the deal.

[rylasasin]

You can have more than one focus, you know... To me, animal liberation implies human liberation, so I don't see why you can't advocate for both.

Yes, you see, the thing is, you aren't going to accomplish the former under capitalism regardless of how many people go vegan. The former requires the latter for it to work.

[Quail]

Yes, you see, the thing is, you aren't going to accomplish the former under capitalism regardless of how many people go vegan. The former requires the latter for it to work.

I know that... However, I don't see the harm in advocating for veganism now. It could only make an animal-friendly post-revolutionary society easier to create.

[Patrice O'neal]

People of detroit should hunt vegans to cut their food bills. Grass fed meat for free.

Fuck vegetables.

[The Red Star Rising]

People of detroit should hunt vegans to cut their food bills. Grass fed meat for free.

Fuck vegetables.
Wow, can we not suggest murdering and eating people for their beliefs? And if that was meant to be a joke, it really wasn't funny.

[Patrice O'neal]

As a real an legitimate member of PeTA (not PETA), I will say, fuck off. Amazing how poor families in India manage to have vegetarian and vegan diets but of course, in America, class and status are measured in meats and glutens and bacon and shit. There is nothing disgusting about this at all. Like, wow. I would totally do this and I'm pretty sure even with my food stamp amount being fucked up currently, could go vegan, if I wanted. Stfu. Honestly.

Yeah, like fuck off for not accepting your world view. Like Animals totally should have like rights and stuff.

Dolphins rape, tigers maul other animals for fun. I eat battery hen eggs and cheap tortured chickn meat and it tastes fantastic. Life eats life, life tastes delicious.

[Patrice O'neal]

Wow, can we not suggest murdering and eating people for their beliefs? And if that was meant to be a joke, it really wasn't funny.

Wow can we drop the I want to be accepted by these uber sensitive people persona? You know it was a joke, can we stop pretending things offend you?

And it was funny and considering vegans can be the most preachy whiney people on earth who act like total condescending eejits alot of the time, I will continue to advocate their hunting on the grounds it might make them less outspoken in their gutteral shrieks for chickens not to be eaten.

[Rosa Partizan]

People of detroit should hunt vegans to cut their food bills. Grass fed meat for free.

Fuck vegetables.

I prefer pasta, potatoes and rice in any variations, but it's astonishing to see that many meat eaters think that vegans are some homogeneous group with exactly identical diet and culinary preferences. Anyway, no need offend a whole group of people for their dietary choices.

[Patrice O'neal]

I prefer pasta, potatoes and rice in any variations, but it's astonishing to see that many meat eaters think that vegans are some homogeneous group with exactly identical diet and culinary preferences. Anyway, no need offend a whole group of people for their dietary choices.

I was vegan for two years. This was a time when I wanted to get as low in weight as possible for a sport and thought this would be a good idea. I actually discussed it in another thread. It was not because I think eating meat is wrong. It is so so right. MMMMM bacon.

However I stand by my support of the people of detroit to be able to hunt grassfed meat. Great nutritious source of calories and guilt free.

[Rosa Partizan]

I was vegan for two years. This was a time when I wanted to get as low in weight as possible for a sport and thought this would be a good idea. I actually discussed it in another thread. It was not because I think eating meat is wrong. It is so so right. MMMMM bacon.

However I stand by my support of the people of detroit to be able to hunt grassfed meat. Great nutritious source of calories and guilt free.

no one in this thread was badmouthing omnivores, so I got really no idea why you would go ahead and make such misplaced jokes. If you were to start some serious discussion about ethic premises and stuff, I'd be fine, but this is just derailing.

[Patrice O'neal]

no one in this thread was badmouthing omnivores, so I got really no idea why you would go ahead and make such misplaced jokes. If you were to start some serious discussion about ethic premises and stuff, I'd be fine, but this is just derailing.

Actually someone told people saying this was awful to "fuck off"

[Loony Le Fist]

Actually someone told people saying this was awful to "fuck off"

So someone telling you to fuck off is equivalent to you threatening to cannibalize them? :confused: Not in my book, pal. :thumbdown:

Of course, we know it's a joke. However, at least try to maintain the proper continuum of force here.

(I know I'm one to talk, right :laugh:)

[Patrice O'neal]

So someone telling you to fuck off is equivalent to you threatening to cannibalize them? :confused: Not in my book, pal. :thumbdown:

Of course, we know it's a joke. However, at least try to maintain the proper continuum of force here.

(I know I'm one to talk, right :laugh:)

Telling someone to fuck off for having a different opinion is worse than makign a joke in response calling for something absurd that I obviously don't support.

Is this real life?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

"Wahhhhhhh, I like meat, I don't give a shit about any other living beings but myself, this isn't a completely ignorant thing to argue at all. Murder is cool cuz it tastes good. How dare a group commited to animal welfare ask others I do the same and help them, who the fuck the fuck do they think are?! Petuh?!?! Fucking assholes. MUH MEATS!!! WHAT ABOUT MUH HOTDOGS?!?!?! Fuck the planet, fuck the ecosystem, fuck animals, I need bacon."

^counter-arguments summed up thus far

[Rosa Partizan]

"Wahhhhhhh, I like meat, I don't give a shit about any other living beings but myself, this isn't a completely ignorant thing to argue at all. Murder is cool cuz it tastes good. How dare a group commited to animal welfare ask others I do the same and help them, who the fuck the fuck do they think are?! Petuh?!?! Fucking assholes. MUH MEATS!!! WHAT ABOUT MUH HOTDOGS?!?!?! Fuck the planet, fuck the ecosystem, fuck animals, I need bacon."

^counter-arguments summed up thus far

marry me right now pls.

[Loony Le Fist]

Telling someone to fuck off for having a different opinion is worse than makign a joke in response calling for something absurd that I obviously don't support.

Is this real life?

Well people tend to get kinda upset when you threaten to murder and eat them and all. Just sayin'. Tell you what, if you want to make cannibalism jokes, direct them at me. I can take them. :laugh:

[BIXX]

I'm not pleased with PETA, given this stunt, and furthermore I don't think there are any moral reasons why we should treat animals well. HOWEVER there are no moral reasons for us to be considered above animals either, and a lot of anti-vegan arguments are bullshit (seriously, dumpster diving isn't that dangerous, buying vegetables isn't hard) plus most people eat WAY more meat than was evolutionarily selected for.

Here is what animal liberation means to me: not that we don't eat meat/animal products ever, but that we have interaction with them similar to how we did before we made the categorical distinction between human animals and non-human animals. Getting to that point is what animal liberation is to me.

[Loony Le Fist]

"Wahhhhhhh, I like meat, I don't give a shit about any other living beings but myself, this isn't a completely ignorant thing to argue at all. Murder is cool cuz it tastes good. How dare a group commited to animal welfare ask others I do the same and help them, who the fuck the fuck do they think are?! Petuh?!?! Fucking assholes. MUH MEATS!!! WHAT ABOUT MUH HOTDOGS?!?!?! Fuck the planet, fuck the ecosystem, fuck animals, I need bacon."

^counter-arguments summed up thus far

It's funny that. I choose not to eat meat. However, I'm not gonna demonize people over it. Most of the arguments of the carnivores presented are absurdist arguments really. Frankly most of these people sound like they are just trying to get a rise out the vegetarians and vegans.

However, consider how fucked we'd be if plants actually turned out to be sentient? What are we gonna eat then? The problem is biology. Something must die in order for us to live. Perhaps one day we can get nutrients from bland cubes of carbohydrates, proteins and fats chemically altered to taste good. Until then, we gotta kill stuff to live. It does suck.

[consuming negativity]

(seriously, dumpster diving isn't that dangerous, buying vegetables isn't hard)

I don't think the "danger" aspect of dumpster diving is why most people aren't going to do it...

[Rosa Partizan]

I'd probably don't do it the US. Here, the guidelines are much stricter, be it food, dispose of chemicals and trash, blah blah. Well, I don't dumpster dive here neither, but I associate any kind of chemical shit with US food when people from Europe tell me that in the US, fruits and vegetables over there look almost artificially perfect.

[Patrice O'neal]

"Wahhhhhhh, I like meat, I don't give a shit about any other living beings but myself, this isn't a completely ignorant thing to argue at all. Murder is cool cuz it tastes good. How dare a group commited to animal welfare ask others I do the same and help them, who the fuck the fuck do they think are?! Petuh?!?! Fucking assholes. MUH MEATS!!! WHAT ABOUT MUH HOTDOGS?!?!?! Fuck the planet, fuck the ecosystem, fuck animals, I need bacon."

^counter-arguments summed up thus far

I support caging hens and bad conditions for animals. I simply do not care about them, I don't care how much they suffer, or how much they are seperated from their young or how intensely they are milked.

I don't give a fuck about animals.

I and most people will never give a fuck about the animals we eat and we don't care how much you whine.

TEAM PEOPLE.

[Quail]

Yeah, like fuck off for not accepting your world view. Like Animals totally should have like rights and stuff.

Dolphins rape, tigers maul other animals for fun. I eat battery hen eggs and cheap tortured chickn meat and it tastes fantastic. Life eats life, life tastes delicious.


Wow can we drop the I want to be accepted by these uber sensitive people persona? You know it was a joke, can we stop pretending things offend you?

And it was funny and considering vegans can be the most preachy whiney people on earth who act like total condescending eejits alot of the time, I will continue to advocate their hunting on the grounds it might make them less outspoken in their gutteral shrieks for chickens not to be eaten.

Wow, what a charming person you are. I don't think any of the vegans/vegetarians in this thread have preached, and here you are childishly ranting about how proud you are of being cruel to animals. Great, good for you.

[BIXX]

I don't think the "danger" aspect of dumpster diving is why most people aren't going to do it...


Someone earlier in the thread mean filmed the danger, I just wanted to mention that that it isn't dangerous really. Especially if you're smart.


I'd probably don't do it the US. Here, the guidelines are much stricter, be it food, dispose of chemicals and trash, blah blah. Well, I don't dumpster dive here neither, but I associate any kind of chemical shit with US food when people from Europe tell me that in the US, fruits and vegetables over there look almost artificially perfect.


Well, to be fair the chemicals in the food itself make it last longer, meaning it's safer to get out of a dumpster for longer :P


If anyone wants, I may be able to help them get some free food in the portland area btw (it will be a few weeks before I'm sure but I think I'll be able to).

[BIXX]

I support caging hens and bad conditions for animals. I simply do not care about them, I don't care how much they suffer, or how much they are seperated from their young or how intensely they are milked.

I don't give a fuck about animals.

I and most people will never give a fuck about the animals we eat and we don't care how much you whine.

TEAM PEOPLE.


You do know the negative treatment of animals fucks human animals too, right?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Dumpster diving in the us can be dangerous due to the way a lot of businesses will more or less poison the food they throw away in order to keep people from getting at it. Do shop owners in Germany stoop that level as well though? I've also seen people get in fights over dumpster rights here haha, but they were scrap metal people not freegans or whatever

[Patrice O'neal]

Meat is the best source of protein for you, fish is great and high in all the omega 3's and fats. B12 be good shit. These things taste great.

Why would I purposefully not eat meat apart from specific reasons not based on morality?

I can get 5kg of chicken breast for 20 pounds. This provides me about 1200 grams of protein. I can then spend a bit more on some fruit, wholegrains, yoghurt, honey, eggs and coffee and have an awesome protein stacked day of eating where I feel full and energised and healthy.

Or i can spend way more trying to get adaquete protein for an active person on a vegan diet and have to buy b12 an vitamin supplements because some essential vitamins and minerals are exclusive to meat and organs.

Liver is higher in vitamins and minerals pound for pound than any plant food. It costs around 2 pounds for a pack big enough to freeze and use over 2 months.


Any argument based on it being healthier, tastier or cheaper is simply not true.

Now you can be vegan, but to act like your moral stance on animals (it being murder) is anything but a misanthopic and sensitive trait picked up from not having to struggle too hard in life is simply not supported by the facts.

[The Red Star Rising]

Wow can we drop the I want to be accepted by these uber sensitive people persona? You know it was a joke, can we stop pretending things offend you?

And it was funny and considering vegans can be the most preachy whiney people on earth who act like total condescending eejits alot of the time, I will continue to advocate their hunting on the grounds it might make them less outspoken in their gutteral shrieks for chickens not to be eaten.
If it was so funny why is nobody laughing? And there are certain things that we generally shouldn't be laughing about. Killing and cannibalizing people over their social beliefs is squarely in the realm of "dude not funny" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DudeNotFunny).

So because you find them preachy, you advocate their slaughter (even in jest)? You truly are an example for all of us to live up to. Monuments will be erected to your shining beacon to all humanity.

Yeah, like fuck off for not accepting your world view. Like Animals totally should have like rights and stuff.

Dolphins rape, tigers maul other animals for fun. I eat battery hen eggs and cheap tortured chickn meat and it tastes fantastic. Life eats life, life tastes delicious.
Careful now, you're going to cut yourself on all that edge.

[rylasasin]

I know that... However, I don't see the harm in advocating for veganism now. It could only make an animal-friendly post-revolutionary society easier to create.

Considering the fact that profit motive directly or indirectly accounts for >95% of animal suffering in the world, you would already do exactly what you describe by default just by creating a post-scarcity post-revolutionary society in the first place.

Evangelical veganism is just not necessary and is pretty much a giant waste of time (not to mention its something divisive... because the left has enough of a divisionism problem without getting into petty moralistic arguments on whether or not its okay or not to eat a steak for dinner tonight.)

[Patrice O'neal]

If it was so funny why is nobody laughing?

Because most lefties and introverted isolated sensitive people who as displayed in oher friends say some of the funniest comedians in the world are not funny.

A joke that makes most regular people laugh makes letfies write blogs about how oppressive it was

[Rosa Partizan]

Dumpster diving in the us can be dangerous due to the way a lot of businesses will more or less poison the food they throw away in order to keep people from getting at it. Do shop owners in Germany stoop that level as well though? I've also seen people get in fights over dumpster rights here haha, but they were scrap metal people not freegans or whatever

they won't do that. From a legal point of view, it's not allowed, but people doing this don't care and many of them have fridges full of great stuff and they eat pretty healthy and balanced. At least the ones I know or heard of.

[#FF0000]

Because most lefties and introverted isolated sensitive people who as displayed in oher friends say some of the funniest comedians in the world are not funny.

naw most of the guys you listed in that other thread were lame.


Whatjoke that make most regular people laugh makes letfies write blogs about how oppressive it was"Regular people" don't all find the same things funny.

Either way the only point you really have is that meat is cheap and nutritious. The only problem is that meat is artificially cheap because of subsidies for meat and for the corn they feed the animals with, which ends up making the meat less good for you (on top of the other things they do to maximize output per animal). So the things that make meat most accessible almost make it worse for us, as well as worse for the environment (raising beef, for example, is either a tremendous waste of arable land, or a particularly filthy and unhealthy business).

So even as a person whose diet is mainly meat products, I can't really deny that the American diet should be more varied, and that farming practices ought to change.

[Rosa Partizan]

Because most lefties and introverted isolated sensitive people who as displayed in oher friends say some of the funniest comedians in the world are not funny.

A joke that makes most regular people laugh makes letfies write blogs about how oppressive it was

I don't use this word really often, but this is one of the most bourgeois rhetorics I've read here so far. If you're aiming to be the "regular people", then why are you here? Why is it better to stick to a societal structure instead of questioning it? "Everyone's doing it" has never been a valid argument, sometimes quite to the contrary.

[Quail]

Considering the fact that profit motive directly or indirectly accounts for >95% of animal suffering in the world, you would already do exactly what you describe by default just by creating a post-scarcity post-revolutionary society in the first place.

Evangelical veganism is just not necessary and is pretty much a giant waste of time (not to mention its something divisive... because the left has enough of a divisionism problem without getting into petty moralistic arguments on whether or not its okay or not to eat a steak for dinner tonight.)

My veganism is more about sticking to my principles than thinking that it makes much of a difference economically. If you think that exploiting and killing animals for food is wrong, it doesn't make sense to just continue eating animal products anyway unless you're a complete hypocrite.

Also, vegan food is good to make in collective spaces because there are fewer food hygiene issues and it's suitable for a wider range of dietary needs without making much effort.

[Loony Le Fist]

Because most lefties and introverted isolated sensitive people who as displayed in oher friends say some of the funniest comedians in the world are not funny.

A joke that makes most regular people laugh makes letfies write blogs about how oppressive it was

You know what I think is funny? Me physically beating the living shit out of douchenozzles like you. I find that to be particularly amusing. I'll even write a blog post with pictures of your bloody face as you are lying unconscious on the pavement. What's even funnier if I were to draw things on your swollen face with a permanent marker when I'm done. Wow, just thinking about it makes me feel light and giddy. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

It's just a joke though. You know. Just a joke, though. You know, from one of these introverted, isolated sensitive people that would just so appreciate watching you bleed to death at my feet. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

But it's just a joke dude. It's just funny. Right?

So where's my cannibalism joke. I'm still waiting for that.

[Patrice O'neal]

You know what I think is funny? Me physically beating the living shit out of douchenozzles like you. I find that to be particularly amusing. I'll even write a blog post with pictures of your bloody face as you are lying unconscious on the pavement. What's even funnier if I were to draw things on your swollen face with a permanent marker when I'm done. Wow, just thinking about it makes me feel light and giddy. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

It's just a joke though. You know. Just a joke, though. You know, from one of these introverted, isolated sensitive people that would just so appreciate watching you bleed to death at my feet. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

But it's just a joke dude. It's just funny. Right?

So where's my cannibalism joke. I'm still waiting for that.


That actually was quite funny. Do you notice how I do not base whether or not something is funny on whether it is about me or something I have been told will be done to me. Because I can take humor and not whinge and call for people to be banned.

It might also be funny because i take it you have no experience in BJJ, Muay Thai , so I think its funny because maybe the outcome would not go according to plan.


I hope this has made your internet persona fit in with the other established members at revleft. You can belong to something. Played!.

[Loony Le Fist]

That actually was quite funny.

Because i take it you have no experience in BJJ, Muay Thai , so I think its funny because maybe the outcome would not go according to plan.

Except when your face gets blown off with my .357 :grin:

See that's humor dude. Me watching your face being torn into ragged flesh by a high caliber bullet. I find that particularly amusing. Don't you agree? :laugh:

[consuming negativity]

This is getting weird.

If he doesn't get the point now, he just isn't going to.

[Patrice O'neal]

Except when your face gets blown off with my .357 :grin:

See that's humor dude. Me watching your face being torn into ragged flesh by a high caliber bullet. I find that particularly amusing. Don't you agree? :laugh:

Actually that is a pretty good effort.

I don't find it great but I don't whine about poor and predicatbale punchlines. You need to keep formulating more scenarios but make them have a turn or a play on words or soemthing that alters the direction of the joke,

can I do a rape joke next, or is that off limits?

[Loony Le Fist]

This is getting weird.

If he doesn't get the point now, he just isn't going to.

I know. I have really bad PTSD, so I imagine things like this in my head a lot. So I have learned to control those feelings, so I don't act them out. I use them for comedic and story telling effect mostly. Sorry to have disturbed you there communer.

[rylasasin]

"Wahhhhhhh, I like meat, I don't give a shit about any other living beings but myself, this isn't a completely ignorant thing to argue at all. Murder is cool cuz it tastes good. How dare a group commited to animal welfare ask others I do the same and help them, who the fuck the fuck do they think are?! Petuh?!?! Fucking assholes. MUH MEATS!!! WHAT ABOUT MUH HOTDOGS?!?!?! Fuck the planet, fuck the ecosystem, fuck animals, I need bacon."

^counter-arguments summed up thus far

I can strawman too, biabMaD. :glare:



Emotions and liberalistic moralism makes me superior to everyone else because I choose to not stick a steak on my plate, and everyone who does is the infernal spawn of satan and I'm going to let everyone else know that I'm much more moral than thou and I will make shitty straw men and rely on bullshit emotional guilt trip tactics and cheer on people who have to resort to blatant opportunism to preach my vegan cult instead of actually trying to present good arguments as to why it's a good idea.*


*Apologies to any vegans trying to actually present some sort of scientifically sound argument for veganism instead of the same tired "lol emotions poor animals" non-arguments.

[Kill all the fetuses!]

*Apologies to any vegans trying to actually present some sort of scientifically sound argument for veganism instead of the same tired "lol emotions poor animals" non-arguments.

I am just curious if you are familiar with Peter Singer's arguments on spiecisism? While now I can see the problem(s) with the argument, I think it's the closest I have ever seen anyone get to a philosophical justification of veganism. Quite frankly, I have never seen any vegan going beyond Singer's arguments.

[Patrice O'neal]

Murder is cool cos it tastes good Who defines murder? Has murder always been what it is regarded as today? Are other animals that can survive on vegetation but choose to go hunt little monkeys for blood lust murderers? What about Babboon's that eat gazelles alive from the ass upwards and rip them apart?

Our brain doubled largely to the fact we scavanged on brain and liver and ate meat.


PcnH_TOqi3I


Stop anthropomorphizing animals people!

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

You know what I think is funny? Me physically beating the living shit out of douchenozzles like you. I find that to be particularly amusing. I'll even write a blog post with pictures of your bloody face as you are lying unconscious on the pavement. What's even funnier if I were to draw things on your swollen face with a permanent marker when I'm done. Wow, just thinking about it makes me feel light and giddy. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

It's just a joke though. You know. Just a joke, though. You know, from one of these introverted, isolated sensitive people that would just so appreciate watching you bleed to death at my feet. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

But it's just a joke dude. It's just funny. Right?

So where's my cannibalism joke. I'm still waiting for that.

http://www.fteam.org/EDLB/wp-content/uploads/CANNIBAL-PICFUNNYBLACK.jpg

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I can strawman too, biabMaD. :glare:



*Apologies to any vegans trying to actually present some sort of scientifically sound argument for veganism instead of the same tired "lol emotions poor animals" non-arguments.

I'm merely responding at the level presented. I tried to talking reasonably but you guys got all stupid I'm afraid ;( sad rly

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Who defines murder? Has murder always been what it is regarded as today? Are other animals that can survive on vegetation but choose to go hunt little monkeys for blood lust murderers? What about Babboon's that eat gazelles alive from the ass upwards and rip them apart?

Our brain doubled largely to the fact we scavanged on brain and liver and ate meat.


PcnH_TOqi3I


Stop anthropomorphizing animals people!

Ok so that's really stupid right there you see cuz here's the thing, yes that's all murder. Taking a life. But that's within their nature. However humans, as you I'm sure you will agree are different and have the capacity to live ecofriendly and humanely. :) being some pseudo-carnivorist macho ass is not cool. It's a pretty shitty argument. Any doctor will tell you a well balanced vegetarian or vegan lifestyle is way healthier. Meats cause colon cancer and other and not only that the fatal diseases you can get just from meat production.

[Lord Testicles]

"Wahhhhhhh, I like meat, I don't give a shit about any other living beings but myself, this isn't a completely ignorant thing to argue at all. Murder is cool cuz it tastes good. How dare a group commited to animal welfare ask others I do the same and help them, who the fuck the fuck do they think are?! Petuh?!?! Fucking assholes. MUH MEATS!!! WHAT ABOUT MUH HOTDOGS?!?!?! Fuck the planet, fuck the ecosystem, fuck animals, I need bacon."

^counter-arguments summed up thus far

If you can't see what is so repugnant about holding something as vital and basic as water to ransom in a bid to convert some poor people to your lifestyle choice and garner some publicity, then I really don't think you can be helped.

Way to avoid the meat of the discussion and paint your detractors as childish buffoons. Classy.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

If you can't see what is so repugnant about holding something as vital and basic as water to ransom in a bid to convert some poor people to your lifestyle choice and garner some publicity, then I really don't think you can be helped.

Again, I've already said I think the way this is being twisted is ridiculous. They're not with holding water. The people will get water as they have anyways only difference is, if they opt for a healthier lifestyle as well, it will be free. Why the fuck woul a group again commited to not killing animals be cool with people indulging in something which they're actively try to put an end too? That doesn't make sense.


Way to avoid the meat of the discussion and paint your detractors as childish buffoons. Classy.

Well hey, I'm Vox Populi, you stay classy RL.

[Lord Testicles]

Again, I've already said I think the way this is being twisted is ridiculous.

I don't see how it's being twisted, PeTA is offering to pay the water bills of those who couldn't otherwise afford it on the condition that they go vegan, isn't that what's happening? Am I twisting anything out of proportion here?


The people will get water as they have anyways only difference is, if they opt for a healthier lifestyle as well, it will be free.

Well, what's healthy for you isn't necessarily healthy for everyone else. Free isn't free if it's got strings attached.


Why the fuck woul a group again commited to not killing animals be cool with people indulging in something which they're actively try to put an end too? That doesn't make sense.

What doesn't make sense is that it's not okay for people to eat meat but it's okay for PeTA to kill thousands of animals and waste their meat.


Well hey, I'm Vox Populi, you stay classy RL.

I don't know how to put this, but my dietary choices are kind of a big deal.

[fgilbert2]

People of detroit should hunt vegans to cut their food bills. Grass fed meat for free.

Fuck vegetables.
How did a anti revolutionary loser scumbag get on this board?

[LiaSofia]

In response to Patrice O'Neal, I don't understand how not wanting to kill animals automatically means that you're anthropomorphising them. Because tbh I see a lot of that kind of inconsistency within the meat-eating community as well (e.g. people thinking that eating dog or horse is somehow worse than eating beef just because they consider those animals to be pets). Most vegetarians are quite clear about the fact that there is a food chain and animals kill each other to survive. It is not a case of holding a silly, romanticised view of nature.

[BIXX]

With all the sexist shit Patrice says, I just wonder why this individual has yet to be banned.

[Left Voice]

Some of the arguments here really baffle me.

As socialists, we argue that access to water is a basic human right. It is not something that should be controlled by anybody - not by capitalists, not by anybody. Access to water is one of the most basic human rights that I can think of, because it is so essential to actually staying alive. We oppose the privatisation of water by the likes of Nestle.

With that in mind, even the strongest vegan in the world must surely recognise that attaching strings to access to water (like what PeTA are doing) is the most reactionary thing that the organisation could possibly be doing.

[The Red Star Rising]

With all the sexist shit Patrice says, I just wonder why this individual has yet to be banned.
Comedy value mayhaps?

[Loony Le Fist]

Comedy value mayhaps?

Well I found this particular post about people on political forums being introverts and therefore feeling brave on political forums to be revealing actually. The projection is obvious. I feel bad that Jimmy actually thanked him and responded so nice to him.



No worries. I find most people on political forums are introverts and quite non confrontational and anxious in real life and when they are online they feel a power to talk shit or be more aggressive in their language and debating tactics that they are scared or unable to employ in real life situations.

Not refering to you specifically here, just pointing out why i take none of it personally.

Anyway thanks for the reply Jimmie. I appreciate it.


Nice passive aggressiveness too.

[Loony Le Fist]

If you can't see what is so repugnant about holding something as vital and basic as water to ransom in a bid to convert some poor people to your lifestyle choice and garner some publicity, then I really don't think you can be helped.

Way to avoid the meat of the discussion and paint your detractors as childish buffoons. Classy.

I've said before they should just lie to get the water and do whatever they want. I say lying is less egregious than holding water hostage.

[Rosa Partizan]

yes, I was wondering how PeTA would be controlling that anyway. I wouldn't reproach anyone for lying in such a context.

[Orange Juche]

With all the sexist shit Patrice says, I just wonder why this individual has yet to be banned.

I saw on an Admin action thread that he was apparently, but under his username in the posts (last I saw) it doesn't say "Banned" so ???

[Loony Le Fist]

I saw on an Admin action thread that he was apparently, but under his username in the posts (last I saw) it doesn't say "Banned" so ???

They may have posted it before getting around to it. Or maybe Patrice has to log in again for the ban to be triggered. Just throwing some possibilities around. Perhaps a mod or admin can elaborate on the technical details.

[Skyhilist]

Well you made sense until


Second, many of the affected parts in Detroit are food deserts. If you seriously expect these people to stay vegan for a whole month, you had better be airdropping supplies every couple of days, because otherwise that promise is gonna get broken pretty damn quick.

Note that some of the cheapest things to buy are beans, rice, lentils, etc, and if you can find the time to cook one or two times in a single week and make a ton of beans and rice, potatoes, and some other basic stuff you've got at least one meal a day set for a week or two, often for 10 cents or less per meal if you buy the rice and beans in bulk. There's plenty of great resources for eating healthily AND cheap while vegan - for example, there's a great book called "eating vegan on $4 a day", which I currently own and has tons of great, cheap, and healthy recipes in it. If you can afford food in general, you can afford to be vegan. Maybe you can't afford faux meats, but those aren't great for you anyways.

Back to the issue at hand... another reason to hate PETA. They're not animal liberationists, they are just douchebags who like grandstanding as others have pointed out, and make veganism look like some poorly organized cult or something. Honestly, it would be great if they could either a) stop pulling shit like this or b) stay the fuck out of the animal rights movement

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

So, PETA is the water utility in Detroit? Are you lot literally claiming they're with holding water? You serious? What's a matter with you guys? I don't understand this.

[Loony Le Fist]

So, PETA is the water utility in Detroit? Are you lot literally claiming they're with holding water? You serious? What's a matter with you guys? I don't understand this.

The problem with this tactic is that it reminds me of those churches that feed homeless people, but make them sit through a sermon first holding the food hostage. It is wrong to do that. In all cases. No one has a right to make propagandization a precondition for receiving food or water. I don't care who it is. No one.

It doesn't matter though in the PeTA case though. At least you can lie to them and get your water.

PeTA would have been smarter to remove the conditions. It would make them less douchey. I would be a lot more inclined to listen to a groups message if they gave me water without conditions, than if they forced me to fit their agenda just to get the water. In the latter case I would feel inclined to lie to get the water, and then promptly tell them to go fuck themselves.

What if an organization forced you to attend a mosque (or church, or some ritual you considered silly) as a condition of receiving water? Would you like that?

I can't respect any organization that does this.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well you made sense until

Note that some of the cheapest things to buy are beans, rice, lentils, etc, and if you can find the time to cook one or two times in a single week and make a ton of beans and rice, potatoes, and some other basic stuff you've got at least one meal a day set for a week or two, often for 10 cents or less per meal if you buy the rice and beans in bulk.

That shit may be cheap, vegan and keep you going for a relatively short while, but if you try to actually live off that kind of crap then you will run into serious nutritional problems. Too much carbs can fuck with your blood sugar regulation (http://www.fao.org/docrep/w8079E/w8079e09.htm) among other things, and there are nowhere near enough complete proteins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein) in the stuff you suggest to be healthy.


Back to the issue at hand... another reason to hate PETA. They're not animal liberationists,

That's actually a small point in their favour. Animal liberation is a nonsensical concept.

[TC]

If this thread is basically a proxy for arguing against ethical veganism where the argument basically comes down to some concept of "ethics and morality are bourgeois concepts that cannot be sensibly interrogated and should be rejected as nonsense" then I think you'll have trouble providing an argument for *any* normative political position.

Normative politics, including a commitment to leftism and socialism and anarchism, are predicated on being able to explicitly or implicitly advance ethical/moral claims and assert the value in extending ethical and moral consideration on some basis. If you can't do that, you can't do normative political theory. If you want to do that but the best you can muster is "humans are the only thing that matters because I am a human, you are a human, my community as I prefer to define it is comprised of humans, and I say so" then you haven't advanced a moral/ethical argument you've simply stated a moral/ethical claim of privilege without providing any basis for why that claim should be accepted - it is no different from saying "Tall humans are the only thing that matters because I am a tall human, the people I care about are tall humans, and the community I prefer to define is of tall humans, and I say so".

[Kill all the fetuses!]

If this thread is basically a proxy for arguing against ethical veganism where the argument basically comes down to some concept of "ethics and morality are bourgeois concepts that cannot be sensibly interrogated and should be rejected as nonsense" then I think you'll have trouble providing an argument for *any* normative political position.

Normative politics, including a commitment to leftism and socialism and anarchism, are predicated on being able to explicitly or implicitly advance ethical/moral claims and assert the value in extending ethical and moral consideration on some basis. If you can't do that, you can't do normative political theory. If you want to do that but the best you can muster is "humans are the only thing that matters because I am a human, you are a human, my community as I prefer to define it is comprised of humans, and I say so" then you haven't advanced a moral/ethical argument you've simply stated a moral/ethical claim of privilege without providing any basis for why that claim should be accepted - it is no different from saying "Tall humans are the only thing that matters because I am a tall human, the people I care about are tall humans, and the community I prefer to define is of tall humans, and I say so".

What if instead of "human", we use "proletariat"? Does it then become a moral/ethical argument in your view?

[TC]

What if instead of "human", we use "proletariat"? Does it then become a moral/ethical argument in your view?

Whatever category you pick, whether its "human" or "tall humans" or "Americans" or "proletariat" or "beings who can experience pain and pleasure" it is arbitrary unless you can provide a reasoning for why that category defines the extent of your moral consideration.

I've heard clear reasoning as to why proletariat should control the means of production and should receive the benefit of their labor. I've never heard a good argument for why the proletariat are the only entities worthy of moral/ethical consideration, and I would consider such a position to be ridiculous and barbaric. Members of the intelligentia, bourgeoises, aristocrats, serfs, lumpen proletariat, petit bourgeois, and members of managerial/professional classes are still entitled to moral/ethical consideration - it is morally repugnant for example to torture them, to kill them for food or to fashion clothing out of, etc.

So to answer your question, while you would have stated a moral/ethical *claim*, simply offering that claim does not amount to a reasoned argument for why it should be adopted. Such a claim is moreover appalling for reasons that should be obvious.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Giving non-human animals ethical consideration is not the same as liberating them. I've yet to hear any animal liberationist say that animals should be given the vote, for example.

[Kill all the fetuses!]

Whatever category you pick, whether its "human" or "tall humans" or "Americans" or "proletariat" or "beings who can experience pain and pleasure" it is arbitrary unless you can provide a reasoning for why that category defines the extent of your moral consideration.

I've heard clear reasoning as to why proletariat should control the means of production and should receive the benefit of their labor. I've never heard a good argument for why the proletariat are the only entities worthy of moral/ethical consideration, and I would consider such a position to be ridiculous and barbaric. Members of the intelligentia, bourgeoises, aristocrats, serfs, lumpen proletariat, petit bourgeois, and members of managerial/professional classes are still entitled to moral/ethical consideration - it is morally repugnant for example to torture them, to kill them for food or to fashion clothing out of, etc.

So to answer your question, while you would have stated a moral/ethical *claim*, simply offering that claim does not amount to a reasoned argument for why it should be adopted. Such a claim is moreover appalling for reasons that should be obvious.

The problem that I see with this kind of an argument is that any categorization can be claimed to be arbitrary. At least I think that's a problem. There is no objective morality, no objective moral truth (from my materialist perspective) so any sort of categorization that you would give, I could claim that it's arbitrary, because in my book these differences might not carry any moral weight. For instance, there is no coherent moral distinction between humans and plants in as much as the latter are also "live". If you try to appeal to some sort of morally relevant distinction, I can call you out as being morally arbitrary. And so it goes.

Well, I don't necessarily see the difference between the argument that proletariat should exclusively control the means of production and why it should be the only morally relevant category. When push comes to shove, when comes the revolution, there won't be any moral considerations about whether we ought to execute the bourgeoisie or not. We will annihilate them precisely because the proletariat is the only morally relevant category. If one accepts Marxist analysis then the very premise of such analysis provides a clear and non-arbitrary (moral) distinction and explanation as to why only the proletariat matters.

I am sort of playing a devil's advocate here for my own elucidation as I am an "ethical" vegetarian myself, but I will appreciate if you can point the flaws in the argument above, above and beyond appeal to emotions "this is clearly appalling" et.

[Thrasymachus]

...

Second, many of the affected parts in Detroit are food deserts. If you seriously expect these people to stay vegan for a whole month, you had better be airdropping supplies every couple of days, because otherwise that promise is gonna get broken pretty damn quick.

Did you actually even read the short blog post you posted here? Why do you pretend like you intend to discuss something with others which you yourself proved you didn't read?



PETA: Why Is PETA About to Pay People’s Water Bills? (http://www.peta.org/blog/peta-pay-peoples-water-bills/)

Thanks to this donor, PETA will be able to pay off the water bills for 10 families who commit to going vegan for one month. We’ll also help them get started by giving each family a basket of healthy vegan foods and recipes.


I have a feeling alot of the hypocritical wannabe, but ulimately fake communists/socialists condemning this action are just like the dominant society. Thus the majority of this board likely agrees with the consumer as center of universe mindset(created by capitalism mind you), when I don't think that is the case. So this crowd has a good impetus to paint "animal rights" as some negative force because it condemns the consumer-workers who want to see desperately their consumer choices as value neutral and having no impact as if products materialize out of air and indeed, in this case, as if meat comes from shrink-wrap as if by magic and not an institutionalized form of coerced slavery followed by brutal murder. So animal rights is a very dangerous topic for this crowd, because it exposes their hypocrisy.

That said I don't support PETA, and would urge people to support instead Animals Deserve Absolute Protection Today and Tomorrow (http://www.adaptt.org/) run by an animal abolitionist and ex-militant who went to jail numerous times to advance the cause. If you give ADAPTT money Gary Yourofsky will tour the world and give speeches to try to influence others to go vegan.(Youtube) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4) If you give PETA money they will squander it on media whoring campaigns that translate to nothing but self publicity.

[Red Star Rising]

That is disgusting. "Sure, we will ensure you get the water you need to live, as long as you conform to our views." If you touch any animal based product for a month in an already deprived area then say goodbye to clean water. Horrible organisation that likes comparing anyone who eats meat (as humans naturally do) to Nazis. I have respect for vegetarians and I am against exploitation of any kind - that includes the exploitation of animals in McDonalds battery farms and the like but this is ludicrous.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Did you actually even read the short blog post you posted here? Why do you pretend like you intend to discuss something with others which you yourself proved you didn't read?

I have a feeling alot of the hypocritical wannabe, but ulimately fake communists/socialists condemning this action are just like the dominant society. Thus the majority of this board likely agrees with the consumer as center of universe mindset(created by capitalism mind you), when I don't think that is the case.

Actually the reason we think it's shit is precisely because the consumer isn't the centre of the universe. That is why there is such a thing as food deserts in the first place! Lack of healthy foods is not down to any consumer choice.

As for the baskets, how big are they going to be? Big enough to feed a family for a month? Nutritionally balanced? Are there options for people with allergies and other special dietary requirements?

And what if after the month there is still no water from the taps?


So this crowd has a good impetus to paint "animal rights" as some negative force because it condemns the consumer-workers who want to see desperately their consumer choices as value neutral

No, it just means we put workers' survival and comfort above moralising liberal garbage.


and having no impact as if products materialize out of air and indeed, in this case, as if meat comes from shrink-wrap as if by magic and not an institutionalized form of coerced slavery followed by brutal murder.

Your attempt to equate keeping animals in captivity with human slavery is a wretched insult to anyone who's ever been a slave. Unlike humans under slavery, animals "in the wild" don't behave that much differently to animals in captivity. Especially animals that we have been specifically breeding for centuries to millennia for the very purpose of rearing in captivity for various purposes. Unlike humans.

Similarly, murder is a legal concept that doesn't apply to animals.


So animal rights is a very dangerous topic for this crowd, because it exposes their hypocrisy.

Only if you think there is no difference in the capacities between humans and other animals, which there clearly are. Which makes you not only wrong but (willfully?) ignorant as well.


That said I don't support PETA, and would urge people to support instead Animals Deserve Absolute Protection Today and Tomorrow (http://www.adaptt.org/) run by an animal abolitionist and ex-militant who went to jail numerous times to advance the cause. If you give ADAPTT money Gary Yourofsky will tour the world and give speeches to try to influence others to go vegan.(Youtube) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4) If you give PETA money they will squander it on media whoring campaigns that translate to nothing but self publicity.

Why? I'm sure there are plenty of human-centred causes that are far more deserving of the money.

That's another thing that pisses me off about animal liberationists - they want to free animals, when humans have yet to be free themselves.

Priorities! :rolleyes:

[Skyhilist]

That shit may be cheap, vegan and keep you going for a relatively short while, but if you try to actually live off that kind of crap then you will run into serious nutritional problems. Too much carbs can fuck with your blood sugar regulation (http://www.fao.org/docrep/w8079E/w8079e09.htm) among other things, and there are nowhere near enough complete proteins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein) in the stuff you suggest to be healthy.

Well where to start. First, maybe the fact that beans are a complete protein. So is quinoa, soy, cashews, etc.
Plenty of complete proteins, so this point is completely devoid of reason.

Also, the problem with your point is that you also have studies and physicians saying the exact opposite (if we even assume that what you've cited is anti-starch-based diet, which if this is the case, please point out a specific quote from the FAO article that says this, since I'm not seeing it).

For example: https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2010nl/jul/weil.htm

Another example with regards to protein: http://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2014/03/04/the-protein-puzzle-meat-and-dairy-may-significantly-increase-cancer-risk/

And another example chocked full of scientific references that back it up: http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/vegdiets/how-can-i-get-enough-protein-the-protein-myth

Some of the largest studies done on human health like the China Study have demonstrated that meat, and especially dairy are not great for health. And your line "if you try to actually live off that kind of crap" is just moronic because no one is suggesting living off of just these things. Fruits and veggies are also of course necessary, or nuts if you are really paranoid about protein. But even if you ate meat, you'd need these things too. You can be healthy vegan for just as little money as you can be healthy (or at least close to healthy) on an omnivorous diet. Someone who can't afford to be healthy on a vegan diet can't afford to do so on one that relies largely on meat either, and it should be obvious that rice and beans are a hell of a lot healthier to live off than big macs if you've only got a few bucks.


That's actually a small point in their favour. Animal liberation is a nonsensical concept.

Noxion is a reactionary!

Since you know, we're just making statements without having to back them up at all.

EDIT: Here's something else: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/32/4/905.full.pdf?origin=publication_detail
The Tarahumara natives have very long life expectancies compared to other native groups, yet their diet is mostly starch.

Also from another study: "In 1949, a government survey found that in Okinawa, known to have the highest concentration of centenarians in the world, the population consumed about 85% of their total energy intake from carbohydrates, with the staple at the time being the sweet potato. The dietary survey also showed that the Okinawans derived about 9% of their energy intake from protein and less than 4% of energy from all sources of animal foods combined (Table 1).10 These findings were largely consistent with previous dietary surveys dating back to 1879 and 1919."

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I wonder if you people would still whine and complain if a group of meat activit offered to pay the water bills of 10 vegan families provided that they are forced to eat bacon and nothing but meat? I rather doubt it. We would hear nothing other than oh how the great how the 190th memorial Trotsky and Bacon Initiative is doing so awesome and helping people out and being oh so revolutionary. It's again amazing I me that such a simple concept is still being twisted and distorted. Ridiculous.

[Rosa Partizan]

stop this bullshit already, ask the vegans in your surrounding or at least on revleft. I feel great, my vegan friends feel great, I'm not starving, I got rather good proportions, I know hardly vegans that are super skinny or pale, let alone vegans with diabetes. You can fuck your nutrition up with vegan food, too, but you can have a great diet if you only pay attention to some very easy, few things.

[Lord Testicles]

I wonder if you people would still whine and complain if a group of meat activit offered to pay the water bills of 10 vegan families provided that they are forced to eat bacon and nothing but meat? I rather doubt it.

Of course the same principle applies, I'd even go as far as to say that it's worse to force someone to eat something they'd rather not as opposed to making someone stop eating something. Although saying that, I've yet to see a group of people who organise around the fact that they eat meat and then go out and proselytize like vegans do.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I wonder if you people would still whine and complain if a group of meat activists offered to pay the water bills of 10 vegan families provided that they are forced to eat bacon and nothing but meat? I rather doubt it.

:confused:

...Please, please let this be your usual beautiful sense of humour. Given the arguments against PETA in this thread thus far, I'm going to go ahead and assume the actual answer is almost certainly a resounding YES! So congratulations, you've unwittingly summed up the core of the argument against PETA in this case.

I will retract the above if you can find for us a single case of any organization of PETA's significance that's actually telling people "We'll give you water IF you eat meat".

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Of course the same principle applies, I'd even go as far as to say that it's worse to force someone to eat something they'd rather not as opposed to making someone stop eating something. Although saying that, I've yet to see a group of people who organise around the fact that they eat meat and then go out and proselytize like vegans do.

Yeah but PeTA is just asking people to not eat meat. What's so wrong about this? That's like saying, yo, if you don't BTK this chicken like a psychopath, you can drink till you can't drink no more. Again, my question, which no one has answered yet is, if any org is opposed to murder why should they hook people up that are actively perpetuating and facilitating this murder? That does not make sense.

[Lord Testicles]

Yeah but PeTA is just asking people to not eat meat. What's so wrong about this? That's like saying, yo, if you don't BTK this chicken like a psychopath, you can drink till you can't drink no more. Again, my question, which no one has answered yet is, if any org is opposed to murder why should they hook people up that are actively perpetuating and facilitating this murder? That does not make sense.

It's more like saying "Yo, don't be eating any meat while I'm back here murdering cats and dogs or I'll make sure I stop that water I've been providing you."

PeTA will kill more animals in a month than a couple of families could ever hope to consume so why are they so concerned about curbing the dietary options of some people who are too poor to afford water?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well where to start. First, maybe the fact that beans are a complete protein. So is quinoa, soy, cashews, etc.
Plenty of complete proteins, so this point is completely devoid of reason.

Which beans? All beans? Not according to here (http://nutrition.about.com/od/askyournutritionist/f/protein_combo.htm[/url) and here (http://www.wikihow.com/Combine-Food-to-Make-Complete-Protein).

Also, most sources (http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/foods-high-in-vitamin-B12.php) of vitamin B12 aren't vegan. Apart from soy, which I think tastes like shit and I'm sure I'm not the only one. What's that? "suck it up, it's good for you?" Need I remind you that diets are easier to stick to if you actually enjoy whatever the hell it is you're eating?


Also, the problem with your point is that you also have studies and physicians saying the exact opposite (if we even assume that what you've cited is anti-starch-based diet, which if this is the case, please point out a specific quote from the FAO article that says this, since I'm not seeing it).

For example: https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2010nl/jul/weil.htm

Mea culpa, but nevertheless a diet of mainly "beans, rice, lentils ... potatoes" strikes me as nutritionally lacking, especially if one is A) living in a food desert and B) avoiding all meat and dairy products as in strict veganism.


Another example with regards to protein: http://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2014/03/04/the-protein-puzzle-meat-and-dairy-may-significantly-increase-cancer-risk/

And another example chocked full of scientific references that back it up: http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/vegdiets/how-can-i-get-enough-protein-the-protein-myth

The links talk about high protein diets, not diets with some animal protein in them. The latter also talks about fancy-pants middle class shit like black beans and quinoa, which I doubt would be sold in most Detroit corner stores.


Some of the largest studies done on human health like the China Study have demonstrated that meat, and especially dairy are not great for health. And your line "if you try to actually live off that kind of crap" is just moronic because no one is suggesting living off of just these things. Fruits and veggies are also of course necessary, or nuts if you are really paranoid about protein.

You forget that we're talking people living in food deserts. That means fruit and veg are going to be either unavailable or cost over the odds, and nuts apart from salted peanuts seem likely to be in the same boat too. So your advice in practical terms does amount to asking people to live off such crap.


But even if you ate meat, you'd need these things too. You can be healthy vegan for just as little money as you can be healthy (or at least close to healthy) on an omnivorous diet. Someone who can't afford to be healthy on a vegan diet can't afford to do so on one that relies largely on meat either, and it should be obvious that rice and beans are a hell of a lot healthier to live off than big macs if you've only got a few bucks.

Talk about a false dichotomy! The alternatives to a dull dish of nothing but tasteless vegan animal fodder are not limited to a diet of 24/7 Big Macs.


Noxion is a reactionary!

Since you know, we're just making statements without having to back them up at all.

Fine then, show me the evidence which shows that animals apart from humans are capable of the kind of reasoning that leads to the actualisation of abstract concepts such as "liberation". In humans this is obvious through such things as slave rebellions and peasant revolts.


EDIT: Here's something else: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/32/4/905.full.pdf?origin=publication_detail
The Tarahumara natives have very long life expectancies compared to other native groups, yet their diet is mostly starch.

Also from another study: "In 1949, a government survey found that in Okinawa, known to have the highest concentration of centenarians in the world, the population consumed about 85% of their total energy intake from carbohydrates, with the staple at the time being the sweet potato. The dietary survey also showed that the Okinawans derived about 9% of their energy intake from protein and less than 4% of energy from all sources of animal foods combined (Table 1).10 These findings were largely consistent with previous dietary surveys dating back to 1879 and 1919."

Both groups ate other things as well, much more varied than your prescription of "beans, rice, lentils ... potatoes". Also their diets are supplemented by things which are going to be hard to find or expensive for the urban poor in the early 21st century USA, as opposed to Mexican natives or mid-20th century(!) Japanese islanders.

[LiaSofia]

NoXion, vegan food is not all dull and tasteless. Of course it's a matter of opinion because people like different foods, but a vegan diet includes most of the components of a regular one, especially if you use substitutes for dairy products. There are vegan versions of: pasta dishes, soups, curries, stir fry, pastries (though you might have to make them yourself), pies, salads and salad dressings, yoghurt, cereal, ice cream, cakes, burgers etc etc. That's in addition to 'just' fruit and vegetables (which I don't find boring anyway). It is also very possible to have a nutritionally balanced diet that is either vegetarian or vegan. IMO it's easier if you're vegetarian rather than fully vegan.

Does anyone know how bad the food situation is in Detroit? It's impossible to make any kind of judgement about how viable it is to maintain a vegan diet there without having more info. Until I moved to a city/larger town, it was impossible to find 'middle-class shit' like quinoa so I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a realistic aim. On the other hand, what kinds of food are available in Detroit? Actual meat is normally more expensive than vegetables.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

It's more like saying "Yo, don't be eating any meat while I'm back here murdering cats and dogs or I'll make sure I stop that water I've been providing you."

PeTA will kill more animals in a month than a couple of families could ever hope to consume so why are they so concerned about curbing the dietary options of some people who are too poor to afford water?

If you could find real, legitimate and objective proof that PeTA allegedly do this? Cuz I've definitely never seen any and why do you keep painting this situation as these people don't have water and are dyhydrated raisins? They have water, PeTA just merely offered to foot the bill. Their situation would have remained the same without PeTA. Again, it would seem pretty fucked for a group, of any sort not to promote a healthy lifestyle instead of saying I don't give a shit about your health or well being, really go ahead and eat your carcinogen, I'm just here to sell you papers, take pix of it while you stare confused at it and then run back to the suburbs and retell my glorious revolutionary struggles like a lot of 'radical' orgs would do. All while pretending to actually do something in reality to help the situation.

[Lord Testicles]

If you could find real, legitimate and objective proof that PeTA allegedly do this?

PeTA admits to it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#Killin g_of_shelter_animals

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/us/peta-finds-itself-on-receiving-end-of-others-anger.html

As for the rest of your post, all I can say is that you are obviously more interested in defending a morally reprehensible, hypocritical organisation than actually discuss the morality of their actions.

"It's not like people are that thirsty." "People would be worse off without PeTA." "All they're concerned about is poor peoples well being!"

Let's just get down to the brass tacks; The only reason PeTA did this is to attempt to garner some publicity so they can draw more donations and get more money so that Ingrid Newkirk and Co. can walk home with a bigger pay-check. (Which I guess is also the reason PeTA doesn't want to pay for animals to stay in shelters for too long. After all, it is cheaper to to kill just under 90% of them)

[#FF0000]

If you could find real, legitimate and objective proof that PeTA allegedly do this? Cuz I've definitely never seen any and why do you keep painting this situation as these people don't have water and are dyhydrated raisins? They have water, PeTA just merely offered to foot the bill. Their situation would have remained the same without PeTA. Again, it would seem pretty fucked for a group, of any sort not to promote a healthy lifestyle instead of saying I don't give a shit about your health or well being, really go ahead and eat your carcinogen, I'm just here to sell you papers, take pix of it while you stare confused at it and then run back to the suburbs and retell my glorious revolutionary struggles like a lot of 'radical' orgs would do. All while pretending to actually do something in reality to help the situation.

yo what do you think of christian missionaries refusing food/water to people in massively impoverished parts of the world until they accept Jesus

[Hagalaz]

I quit paying attention to them when they whined about a town in New York called "Fishkill".
It's actually an old Dutch name and has nothing to do with killing fish.
Nothing in the world more annoying than self righteous dumb asses.

[Rosa Partizan]

during the last days, I spoke with several vegans about that and observed some online discussions among vegans. The very vast majority found this PeTA promotion stunt pretty fucked up, just for the record.

[Stalker]

Yeah but PeTA is just asking people to not eat meat. What's so wrong about this? That's like saying, yo, if you don't BTK this chicken like a psychopath, you can drink till you can't drink no more. Again, my question, which no one has answered yet is, if any org is opposed to murder why should they hook people up that are actively perpetuating and facilitating this murder? That does not make sense.

I fail to see what you're trying to reinforce here, I've read this thread from the start and all of your arguments are just replies, it's like you're the vegan muscle, just here to defend the mighty vegan movement or some shit.

What PeTA did cannot be defended at all, they are holding water (a basic human need) from people who need it, like someone said earlier, conditional help is almost worse than not helping at all.

Okay i'll try and put it into perspective for you.

Lets say you're dying of thirst and i hate RevLeft and you love RevLeft.

"Oh you need water? Yeah man i'll help you out, but only if you don't log onto Rev for a month!"

Then someone starts a thread about it saying how bad I am for doing this, then some jackass Anti-Revlefter comes about saying it's okay because RevLeft is bad, that's his OPINION, great word hey - "opinion".

All in all, they are holding water hostage from someone, end of story. As a leftist you should oppose that no questions asked, no matter if the conditions appeal to you or not.

Oh and i thought that Patrice joke was funny as hell. Stop being so tight.

[Soviet solider]

PETA disgusts me they have no right to call them selves environmentalists . They are nut jobs , they claim to be peaceful but are truly modern day nazis . They are the lowest form of life and should be disbanded !:mad:

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I fail to see what you're trying to reinforce here, I've read this thread from the start and all of your arguments are just replies, it's like you're the vegan muscle, just here to defend the mighty vegan movement or some shit.

That's exactly what I'm doing. Correct. :rolleyes:


What PeTA did cannot be defended at all, they are holding water (a basic human need) from people who need it, like someone said earlier, conditional help is almost worse than not helping at all.

They are NOT withholding water. They are not Detroit's water utility. They still would have to find a way to pay for their bills as they always have and get water as they always have. All PeTA did was offer to fit the bill for families whom are willing to go vegan and opt for a healthier lifestyle. That's it. Period. End of story. There is no radical vegan assholes on the water towers holding them hostage. How hard is this to understand?


Okay i'll try and put it into perspective for you.

Lets say you're dying of thirst and i hate RevLeft and you love RevLeft.

"Oh you need water? Yeah man i'll help you out, but only if you don't log onto Rev for a month!"

Then someone starts a thread about it saying how bad I am for doing this, then some jackass Anti-Revlefter comes about saying it's okay because RevLeft is bad, that's his OPINION, great word hey - "opinion".

All in all, they are holding water hostage from someone, end of story. As a leftist you should oppose that no questions asked, no matter if the conditions appeal to you or not.

Oh and i thought that Patrice joke was funny as hell. Stop being so tight.

I don't get where you're going with this?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

PETA disgusts me they have no right to call them selves environmentalists . They are nut jobs , they claim to be peaceful but are truly modern day nazis . They are the lowest form of life and should be disbanded !:mad:

Thank for you summing up the anti-PeTA arguments in this thread thus far.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

yo what do you think of christian missionaries refusing food/water to people in massively impoverished parts of the world until they accept Jesus

Babe is not the same. :(

[Stalker]

Babe is not the same. :(

How is it not the same hahah? Just because their non-religious doesn't justify it lol. Please Elaborate on how it's not thes ame lol

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

How is it not the same hahah? Just because their non-religious doesn't justify it lol. Please Elaborate on how it's not thes ame lol

The Christian missionaries in this hypothetical situation are literally with holding life necessities whereas PeTA is not in Detroit and conversely, PeTA is not the utility in Detroit. That's the difference.

[ClawsandAwws]

I used to respect PETA a lot, but this was so damn upsetting. To treat human beings in need a better way as long as they have the same diet as you is completely horrible. It's like organizing "bum fights" with food for the winner, just a complete disconnect with society.
To put forth that living standards are for people, with something as petty as, vegetarian diets makes PETA an enemy of the people. People are animals, too and they need ethical treatment.

[ReindeerThistle]

I have now lost all respect for PETA. Any entity that uses the misery of others to advance their own agenda -- or rather, seeks to opportunistically gain "converts" by exploiting a human crisis, goes on the Gulag-After-the-Revolution (GAR) list.

PETA just made it to the top.

[RedAnarchist]

I have now lost all respect for PETA. Any entity that uses the misery of others to advance their own agenda -- or rather, seeks to opportunistically gain "converts" by exploiting a human crisis, goes on the Gulag-After-the-Revolution (GAR) list.

PETA just made it to the top.

You had respect for them in the first place?

Sent from my YP-GI1 using Tapatalk 2

[ReindeerThistle]

You had respect for them in the first place?

When Cassandra Peterson ("Elvira") spoke for them in Vegetarian Times in 1991. But, since then... a whithering away of respect.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I have now lost all respect for PETA. Any entity that uses the misery of others to advance their own agenda -- or rather, seeks to opportunistically gain "converts" by exploiting a human crisis, goes on the Gulag-After-the-Revolution (GAR) list.

PETA just made it to the top.

Blah blah fuckity blah

[Lord Testicles]

Blah blah fuckity blah


If you have nothing productive to say, don't say it! Notorious spammers/one-line posters will be banned.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/misc.php?do=showrules

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/misc.php?do=showrules

I've already presented my counter-arguments to what I quoted more than once in this thread. Am I suppose to keep wasting my time and keep repeating myself over and over and over again?