ISIS plans to circumcise 4 mil women (pg 6: likely hoax according to Mosul sources)

[Hexen]

According to reports, the leadership of Islamic State of Iraq and Levant (ISIS) has ordered all families around Iraq’s northern city of Mosul to circumcise their women.

The order was reportedly given by leader of the e self-declared Islamic State, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the United Nations warned Thursday.

UN resident and humanitarian coordinator in Iraq Jacqueline Badcock told reporters in Geneva through a video from Irbil that the fatwa would potentially affect four million women and girls.

http://www.khaama.com/isis-orders-circumcision-of-4-million-women-and-girls-in-mosul-6471

[The Red Star Rising]

ISIS is a vile organization and is about as reactionary as they come. Defeating them is going to require both pulling their support base out from underneath them and defeating them militarily. I was at first worried that the Iraqi army would continue to live up to it's reputation of incompetence, but it seems that they're shaping up under the pressure rapidly so there may be some hope yet.

I just hope that ISIS' dreams of a vast new Caliphate end about as well for Abu Bakr as Hitler's dream of an Aryan superstate did for him.

[Zoroaster]

Disgusting. I don't support the US, or any country for that matter, but this is just barbaric.

[Hexen]

Of course they now deny it:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/isis-deny-ordering-fgm-girls-mosul


Isis denies ordering that all girls in Mosul undergo FGM

Doubts grow over UN report, seemingly reliant on year-old document from Syria thought to have been doctored




Ian Black (http://www.theguardian.com/profile/ianblack) and Fazel Hawramy (http://www.theguardian.com/profile/fazel-hawramy)

The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian), Thursday 24 July 2014 13.29 EDT

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/7/24/1406222658316/Iraqi-Christians-fleeing--011.jpg An Iraqi Christian family in the village of Qaraqush after fleeing Mosul. Photograph: Safin Hamed/AFP/Getty Images

Jihadi extremists who have taken over the Iraqi city of Mosul have denied ordering families to have their daughters undergo female genital mutilation (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/isis-women-girls-fgm-mosul-un) in order to prevent "immorality" or face severe punishment, as claimed by a senior UN humanitarian official on Thursday.
Supporters of the Islamic State (Isis (http://www.theguardian.com/world/isis)), previously known as the Islamic State in Iraq (http://www.theguardian.com/world/iraq) and the Levant, dismissed the story as propaganda based on a fake document – though residents of Mosul, as well as Kurdish officials, insisted it was true.
The claim about enforced FGM came from the UN's deputy humanitarian coordinator in Iraq, Jacqueline Badcock, who told reporters that up to 4 million women and girls aged 11-46 faced the risk of genital mutilation. "This is something very new for Iraq, particularly in this area, and is of grave concern and does need to be addressed," she said. "This is a fatwa from Isis. This is not the will of Iraqi people, or the women of Iraq in these vulnerable areas covered by the terrorists."
Reports about the issue have been circulating in Iraqi media for the past few days. On Wednesday a Kurdish website, BasNews, reported (http://basnews.com/en/News/Details/ISIS-enforces-female-circumcision-/27970) that the fatwa had been issued by the self-proclaimed "Caliph" of the Islamic State, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, as a "gift" to the people of Mosul. BasNews said on Thursday that it stood by its story. "Of course Isis would deny this," the editor, Hawar Abdulrazaq, told the Guardian.
Badcock's comments came in a briefing by videolink from her base in Irbil, capital of the Kurdish regional government, to reporters at the UN headquarters in Geneva.
But plans for a statement by the UK international development secretary, Justine Greening, were dropped as doubts grew about the accuracy of the claim.
Suspicions about its veracity were based partly on the fact that FGM is not required by Islam and is not prevalent in Iraq. It is most widespread in Egypt, Sudan and east Africa.
A document circulating on social media purporting to be the Isis fatwa was in fact dated July 2013, originated in Aleppo, Syria, and was widely described as having being photoshopped. It appeared on Thursday on the website of the Saudi-owned TV channel al-Arabiya.
Ahmed Obaydi, a spokesman for Mosul police, told BasNews: "Baghdadi's decision to have all women circumcised is, as he claims, to prevent immorality and promote Islamic attitudes among Muslims. The decision was made by Baghdadi as a 'gift' for people in Mosul." But Mohammed, a local journalist, told the Guardian he knew no one who had been told by Isis that their female relatives should undergo FGM. "This is mainly media hype with no substance," he said.
Isis supporters quickly dismissed the story as a hoax. "If Isis responds to every lie and rumour they will not be able to control all these areas you hear about," tweeted one. "Please ask UN to prove their claims before you hear from us." The same Twitter account, whose name is derived from an Arabic word meaning "monster", contains multiple images of the decapitated heads of Syrian soldiers taken in the Raqqa areas near the Iraqi border.
According to the Iraqi paper al-Mustaqbal, which also reported on the alleged fatwa earlier this week, the practice of FGM is alien to Iraqi society except the Kurdish provinces. Worldwide, more than 130 million girls and women have undergone FGM.
The FGM story broke against a background of wider concern about the situation in Mosul, whose Christian community has been forced to flee (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/iraqi-christians-mosul-isis-convert-islam-or-be-executed) under threat of forced conversion or execution by jihadists who have turned churches into mosques and confiscated property.
Iraq's prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, has lambasted Isis for its "criminality and terrorism". Last weekend Isis gave the city's Christians a stark choice: convert to Islam, pay a religious tax, or face death.

[Five Year Plan]

Forced circumcision of all kinds, particularly of infants and small children, is barbaric and should be terminated.

[Revolver]

It is very strange that a "fatwa" would be issued by ISIS (or the would-be caliph) concerning female genital mutilation, and stranger still that a Kurdish outlet would be reporting that. FGM is not required under Islam, and in fact the only region in Iraq where it is prevalent is Kurdistan. Moreover, there are clear signs that the alliance between the disparate forces there requires some degree of moderation and flexibility, and introducing a Kurdish practice in that environment, one that would no doubt be quite controversial, flies in the face of reason. More likely it is prop against ISIS by Kurdish elements. ISIS is bad enough on its own terms, though; no need to invent additional horrors.

[Dagoth Ur]

Yeah I hate IS, I hate their phony caliphate, I hate salafism in general. However this is crazy and I've never heard of iraqi, syrian, or any non-african arabs performing female circumcision.

Although following the Prophet is clearly not required by muslims, he explicitly forbade this practice.

[Devrim]

Yeah I hate IS, I hate their phony caliphate, I hate salafism in general. However this is crazy and I've never heard of iraqi, syrian, or any non-african arabs performing female circumcision.

Arabs do it in Iraq, Syria, and in other parts of the Arab world.I don't think that it is prevalent amongst Arabsanywhere though, certainly not in Syria or Iraq.


Although following the Prophet is clearly not required by muslims, he explicitly forbade this practice.

It is not mentioned at all in the Koran. There are many references to it it the tradition, but they are often contradictory, and Mohammed can be found to be both supporting it and opposing it, as is often the case with the tradition.

Devrim

[Dagoth Ur]

I wasn't saying it never happens I meant I hadn't heard anyone claiming it was necessary in these regions. I probably could have been clearer on that.

And yeah I know but that really relates to which hadith you consider legitimate. I don't remember, although I could be wrong, any positive statements on female circumcision in al-bukhari or al-islam.

[Dagoth Ur]

It is not thousands of fuckups a year. That is ridiculous.

[Dagoth Ur]

Except that most of us don't care, remember, or have ever known different. As far as "abuses" go this is about as tame as you can get.

[Five Year Plan]

Mutilating a child's gentiles is definite a no-no unless it's for medical reasons.

If you want to cut up your junk as an adult then that's fine, but to do something so unnecessary to someone who has absolutely no say or power over it is fucked up.

No, no, no! Devrim knows EXACTLY how your penis should look!

[Dagoth Ur]

So now it's about my participation in your guys' anti-circumcision thread derailment? Oh well I do apologize. I'll just let you guys circlejerk to babies foreskin.

EDIT:
lol I just realized rugged collectivist threatened me with gossip. I have no words for how lame that is. Like wow.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Why don't you just call me a racist again. At least you were being coherent then.

[Dagoth Ur]

Actually it's a thread about IS supposedly ordering female circumcision on a huge scale yet everyone here is talking about male circumcision. That's real on-topic.

Oh and now I'm mad supposedly. You're cute. :wub:

EDIT:
cultural-chauvinism =/= racism.

[Dagoth Ur]

No it isn't, it's about IS specifically and female circumcision in particular. But hey don't let me try to kick the soap-box out from beneath your feet.

[Five Year Plan]

No it isn't, it's about IS specifically and female circumcision in particular. But hey don't let me try to kick the soap-box out from beneath your feet.

I notice you didn't answer my question.

[Dagoth Ur]

@FYP: Wow that was a dick post. See what I did there?

EDIT:
I've noticed this happens a lot in these "debates" where eventually one side or the other (usually whoever can't really make a decent argument) devolves into insulting the genitalia of the other side. Stay classy FYP.

[Five Year Plan]

It's okay Dogoth Mordor. We understand. It's a sore subject.

[Five Year Plan]

@FYP: Wow that was a dick post. See what I did there?

EDIT:
I've noticed this happens a lot in these "debates" where eventually one side or the other (usually whoever can't really make a decent argument) devolves into insulting the genitalia of the other side. Stay classy FYP.

What debate? You refuse to debate, and have fallen back on "It's not the topic!"

[Dagoth Ur]

And now to insulting my username like that would make me mad or something. You really are a cleaver and insightful person FYP.

EDIT:
No I haven't refused at all. So now we've got both accusations flying: RC claiming I'm the one making a big deal about this so I have some vested emotional reason (which is why I pointed out that I'm not the one who derailed the actual purpose of this thread) and now FYP claiming that I refused to argue at all. Hilarious.

[Five Year Plan]

How am I insulting your name?

[Lord Testicles]

Actually it's a thread about IS supposedly ordering female circumcision on a huge scale yet everyone here is talking about male circumcision. That's real on-topic.

Oh and now I'm mad supposedly. You're cute. :wub:

EDIT:
cultural-chauvinism =/= racism.

The thing is I don't think there much of a discussion to be had about female circumcision, I'm fairly sure that we're all in agreement that it's really bad and shouldn't be happening. There does seem to be a debate about the morality of male circumcision though...

[Dagoth Ur]

That's a pretty good justification for total thread derailment.

@RC: Those are some pretty caricatures. Did you sell them on the pier because you'd make bank.

@FYP: You're silly.

[Five Year Plan]

The think is I don't think there much of a discussion to be had about female circumcision, I'm fairly sure that we're all in agreement that it's really bad and shouldn't be happening. There does seem to be a debate about the morality of male circumcision though...

Yes, I wonder why.

[Five Year Plan]

Dagoth: I'm still waiting for you to explain what you think gives you the qualifications to dictate whether a male infant gets to keep a part of his genitals for the rest of his life.

[Rugged Collectivist]

@RC: Those are some pretty caricatures. Did you sell them on the pier because you'd make bank.

@FYP: You're silly.

Totally productive and on topic. I like how you finally answered my question about female circumcision... oh wait.

[Five Year Plan]

By the way, does everybody here know that former US President Bill Clinton has a hooked penis from a botched infant circumcision? Fun fact.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

This displays a fundamental lack of understanding about how the brain forms. As an adult this is certainly true but infants brains develop based on whichever they have. The erotic connections haven't even begun to form yet.

Also this is a non-issue. Circumcised guys almost never complain about having been circumcised. It seems to be non-circumcised people who seem the most upset.

Are you familiar with the concept of infantile sexuality?

[Five Year Plan]

Are you familiar with the concept of infantile sexuality?

He also seems to be unacquainted with the status of my penis, which I suppose can be forgiven :confused:

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

He also seems to be unacquainted with the status of my penis, which I suppose can be forgiven :confused:


*Laughs* I suppose it can. Woe betide the unlucky poster who isn't familiar with your penis.

[Dagoth Ur]

@FYP: She.

And unlike you I don't worry about other people's penises.

[Five Year Plan]

@FYP: She.

And unlike you I don't worry about other people's penises.

Apparently not, at least not after they're sliced at one day old.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

@FYP: She.

And unlike you I don't worry about other people's penises.


And apparently, you don't seem to trouble yourself with matters of psychology, either.

[Dagoth Ur]

DP

[Rugged Collectivist]

@FYP: She.

And unlike you I don't worry about other people's penises.
Well you did say you'd have your son circumcised, so apparently you care enough about someone else's penis that you would go out of your way to have a piece of it snipped off. As opposed to, you know, doing nothing.

[Dagoth Ur]

I'm going to be imposing my beliefs on my children anyways. I would never tell anyone else to have their child circumcised.

[Dagoth Ur]

Fair enough. If he cares I'll apologize.

[Rugged Collectivist]

I'm going to be imposing my beliefs on my children anyways. I would never tell anyone else to have their child circumcised.
I remember going to school with a kid who's dad branded his arm because that was a family tradition apparently. I should mention this was the third grade. Maybe I'll give my two year old a badass tattoo. If he doesn't like it he can always get it lasered off.

[Five Year Plan]

Circumcising your son, when you come from an all circumcised background (ie their whole family), and when your community is mostly circumcised, is a matter of culture and social cohesion. And vise versa. You may not like that society works this way but it does.

To quote my dear old mother, "And if everybody else jumped off a bridge, would you jump, too?"

[Five Year Plan]

Okay. I can respect this. I would also like to immerse my kids in their culture (if they're interested, I won't force them) but I don't mind throwing the darker parts into the dustbin of history. I don't meaning forgetting them or lying about them. I mean not actively practicing them anymore. You don't have to bind your daughters feet to teach her about her Chinese heritage.

My ancestors were Calvinist separatists who came over on the Mayflower. Just imagine how rapidly they are spinning in their tombs at this point.

[Rugged Collectivist]

I can respect that last post by you RC.

Thank you. I'd prefer to keep this discussion civil but it's a sensitive issue.


Being circumcised is irrelevant to my transsexuality. I don't even understand where this outrage is coming from.

For me personally, it irritates me that my ability to experience sexual pleasure has been diminished against my will for a reason that I consider extremely frivolous. Apparently my parents had it done because it's "cleaner". I've never heard of a worse trade off. Maybe that seems petty, or unimportant, but it should have been my choice.

[Dagoth Ur]

How do you know you experience less? How would you even gauge that?

[Rugged Collectivist]

How do you know you experience less? How would you even gauge that?
It removes sensitive nerve endings and desensitizes the glans. As I said earlier there IS a way to regrow the foreskin, it's a long, strange process, and it's not the same as it would be if it had never been removed in the first place, but some men who have done it have reported increased sexual pleasure afterwards. I imagine there are men who were circumcised in adulthood who can comment on the difference but I haven't really looked into it.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I am technically opposed to circumcision but approve of it being done consensually as an adult. Personally, I have a fear of foreskins because of a bad experience, but like I said that was a personal experience that fucked up my head. Then again genitalia kinda freaks me out anyhow. So I guess what it does come down to is consent, so I am only for circumcision of consenting adults.

[khad]

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/no-the-islamic-state-has-not-ordered-all-women-to-undergo-fgm--lyuebSA6Wl


A United Nations representative has claimed the Islamic State has ordered all girls and women in and around Mosul to undergo female genital mutilation (FGM), but i100 understands the story to be false.

Jacqueline Badcock, the UN resident and humanitarian coordinator in Iraq, told reporters in Geneva via videolink from Erbil that the “fatwa” issued by the militant group, formerly known as Isis, would affect 4million females aged between 11 and 49.

i100 earlier reported on a supposed edict from the Islamic State that had been circulating on social media, and was told by an expert in the region that it was most likely a hoax.

A UN spokesman in Geneva told Reuters said that they were seeking clarity and trying to establish the facts.

Shiraz Maher, a Senior Fellow at King’s College London specialising in the Middle East, had looked at the image for i100 - before the UN’s claims - and concluded it was a fake, likely spread by one of the many, many groups opposed to Isis.

Mr Maher told us FGM was more “cultural” rather than having a specific association with Islamism, adding that it is “not something jihadists have ever really taken up” or “spoken about”.

Ms Badcock herself acknowledged that the order would represent a departure for the jihadists in her initial statement.

“This is something very new for Iraq, particularly in this area, and is of grave concern and does need to be addressed,” she told journalists.

“This is not the will of Iraqi people, or the women of Iraq in these vulnerable areas covered by the terrorists.”

It is unclear whether the UN representative’s comments were a reaction to the above image, or reflect other information.

However, Mr Maher later told us: “Locals in Mosul, including doctors, say this is just a hoax. That’s also my gut feeling.”

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

The thread is about circumcision, and how religious nutcases want to mutilate people's genitals without their consent. Talking about forced male circumcision is totally on topic.

I'm pretty sure the thread is about ISIS allegedly planning to circumcise 4 mil womyn

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

@FYP: Maybe. Who's to say there isn't a good reason to jump off a bridge? I mean if everyone else is doing it there is at least cause to hear out their case.

No, I tried that once while drunk because it seemed like a good idea at the time. Fractured L1 and L2 and it was fun until I hit the dirt and rocks. So no, please don't try it.

[Quail]

Please try to be civil, everyone!

---

You know, I find it a bit disappointing that almost every time there is a thread about FGM it turns into a thread about male circumcision. I agree that both are a violation of bodily autonomy, and I don't think either should be performed without medical need or consent. But on the other hand, they are very different procedures. FGM is never a medical necessity and I think it's completely sickening to remove someone's clit so that they can never experience sexual pleasure. Pleasurable sex is a beautiful thing, and mutilating someone to deny them that for their whole life is, in my view, denying them a part of their humanity.

[Quail]

Yeah because complaining about being circumcised would get so ostracized. Do you read this shit before you post, because that is downright retarded. It's that circumcision has no real effect on our lives and we just really don't care. This doesn't change because a few circumcised guys bought into the nonsense about being "violated" or some other such.


Missed this earlier - verbal warning for prejudiced language.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

What is the ratio of mentions of male circumcision to female? I guess male privilege includes the power to constantly veer discussion towards them.

Let's hope it's just a hoax to make IS look more savage and brutal than they have already been. It's really hard to see how this would actually benefit them nor does it have any traditional place in their program.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Please try to be civil, everyone!
What happens when you ask someone who is just defiant by nature to be civil? I reckon I should stop being civil from this point on. :rolleyes: :tt2: :laugh:

... I jest, I jest...



You know, I find it a bit disappointing that almost every time there is a thread about FGM it turns into a thread about male circumcision. I agree that both are a violation of bodily autonomy, and I don't think either should be performed without medical need or consent. But on the other hand, they are very different procedures. FGM is never a medical necessity and I think it's completely sickening to remove someone's clit so that they can never experience sexual pleasure. Pleasurable sex is a beautiful thing, and mutilating someone to deny them that for their whole life is, in my view, denying them a part of their humanity.

Overall I totally agree. It irritates me that they turn it into a topic of male circumcision.

Sexual pleasure is a beautiful thing for many people and nobody should have that physical capability removed without their informed consent. Personally there are some of us who don't have sexual pleasure as such a clearly cut beautiful thing as it can be followed by feelings of shame, guilt and even terror, just a clarifying side point. Nevertheless, I find FGM to be a disgusting and unjustifiable thing to do to a child. If someone chooses to have that done as an adult knowing everything it entails and consents, I reckon they should be permitted to make that decision about their own body.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Missed this earlier - verbal warning for prejudiced language.

I strongly recommend you avoid Texas. They have a state run agency called MHMR which stands for "Mental Health and Mental Retardation" I shit you not.

But I agree that that was probably not the best word choice.

[khad]

Please try to be civil, everyone!

---

You know, I find it a bit disappointing that almost every time there is a thread about FGM it turns into a thread about male circumcision. I agree that both are a violation of bodily autonomy, and I don't think either should be performed without medical need or consent. But on the other hand, they are very different procedures. FGM is never a medical necessity and I think it's completely sickening to remove someone's clit so that they can never experience sexual pleasure. Pleasurable sex is a beautiful thing, and mutilating someone to deny them that for their whole life is, in my view, denying them a part of their humanity.

May I humbly suggest locking this thread for 2 reasons?

1) The story is a hoax
2) The discussion has nothing to do with the topic

[Tim Cornelis]

Children are not the property of their parents, and have no right to use and abuse their children. It's really simple.

[The Red Star Rising]

Hey guys, I just wanted to check what was going on here since I le-
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/610/373/eea.gif

Aw shit.

[Quail]

Hey guys, I just wanted to check what was going on here since I le-
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/610/373/eea.gif

Aw shit.

In future, please don't make content-free posts like this.

[The Red Star Rising]

In future, please don't make content-free posts like this.
My apologies, I was trying to make some light of the rather interesting direction the thread took in my absence.

Well, if the main premise of the thread is based on faulty information, should we just lock it and move on?

[Quail]

I think closing it now is probably for the best.

Thread closed.