Krav maga and systema

[The Cleaner]

Hello comrades, i would like to ask you about your opinions on krav maga and system as to whether they are practical and if they can really benefit us

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Most martial arts are actually pretty useless when it comes to an actual fight. What's useful about martial arts is that they instill confidence in the trainee, which allows them to approach a fight with a level head. If the course provides you with that confidence then yeah it's useful, if it doesn't it was a waste of time and money.

[Rafiq]

Well no, most martial arts systems are useless when they are catered and sold to people.

But the world's militaries do practice and utilize martial arts in their training, especially their special forces. Its not at all useless.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

How often do you think navy seals use their hand to hand techniques vs. calling in airstrikes?

[Naroc]

I wouldn't even say Krav Maga is a martial art. It's a self-defence system with the main purpose to be useful in everyday life situations, and not to be very aesthetic. Therefore it isn't that useless. At least that's what i'm thinking about it.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Well that certainly sounds like an appealing advertisement if nothing else.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

How often do you think navy seals use their hand to hand techniques vs. calling in airstrikes?

Martial artists often train all aspects of security personnel, from nightclub bouncers, through private security details, border control and yes, the army.

To say that ALL martial arts are useless in the real world is pretty ignorant. Some will be less useful than others (Aikido and Jitsu, for example, lack a competitive element and in addition are mostly grappling styles, so they may not transition well to a one-on-one fist fight), but you only have to look at the effectiveness of a variety of styles (Jiujitsu/BJJ, Judo, Boxing, Kickboxing, Thai Kickboxing, Wrestling, Sambo etc.) in sports like the UFC to understand just how effective these martial arts, with their competitive, sparring, striking and balance-breaking elements, are in the real world.

[Patrice O'neal]

They suck, do BJJ, muay thai, wrestling, sambo. boxing, judo or a combo of a few. Anything else is pointless.

[Ocean Seal]

Tae Kwon Do won't give you a better fighting style, but you will start to notice a development in your legs dexterity. So in short you will become better at kicking things, which translates into a useful fighting skill.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Martial artists often train all aspects of security personnel, from nightclub bouncers, through private security details, border control and yes, the army.

To say that ALL martial arts are useless in the real world is pretty ignorant. Some will be less useful than others (Aikido and Jitsu, for example, lack a competitive element and in addition are mostly grappling styles, so they may not transition well to a one-on-one fist fight), but you only have to look at the effectiveness of a variety of styles (Jiujitsu/BJJ, Judo, Boxing, Kickboxing, Thai Kickboxing, Wrestling, Sambo etc.) in sports like the UFC to understand just how effective these martial arts, with their competitive, sparring, striking and balance-breaking elements, are in the real world.

Maybe you could do me a favor and actually read my post before flipping out. I never said "all martial arts are useless"

special forces may train with martial arts, but if they hardly every actually use them we can assume that they serve the same role in the special forces community that they do for overweight suburban office worker community. They build confidence which is probably in high demand for that job. But please add another rant, I love skipping your posts.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

[QUOTE=Ethics Gradient;2773998]Maybe you could do me a favor and actually read my post before flipping out. I never said "all martial arts are useless"

You said: "Most martial arts are actually pretty useless when it comes to an actual fight."

I'm not flipping out, i'm just pointing out that your claim above is baseless. Martial Arts are intended and are used to be applicable in real-life fight and self-defence situations.


They build confidence which is probably in high demand for that job. But please add another rant, I love skipping your posts.

Like I said above, it wasn't a rant. I was just pointing out that:

a) there are a variety of martial arts intended for different purposes;
b) a great many martial arts serve the purpose of practical use in self-defence/fight situations.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Right, well the word most isn't the same thing as the word all. So what is your point exactly?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

https://i.imgflip.com/3y6hf.jpg

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

What argument have I lost? Is it your claim that the majority of people who complete a krav maga course, do so as IDF hand to hand specialists or something equivalent? Because if not I honestly have no clue what you're talking about

[Ele'ill]

Martial arts is too general of a term to use to describe anything specific. I would consider the combat sports portion of martial arts to be extremely useful. Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Western Boxing, Submission Wrestling. When you combine these to some degree you end up with MMA, which would be a well rounded individual capable of defending themself and attacking both on the ground and standing up. I think that specific fighting systems like the two mentioned in this thread often borrow from what is already existing, from the above mentioned training options. They will also add in specific scenarios which can be useful so long as the reaction is a general one and not too specific. "someone pulls a knife, what are the first general things you do".

[Rafiq]

How often do you think navy seals use their hand to hand techniques vs. calling in airstrikes?

There are definite scenarios in which hand to hand combat is of importance to special forces divisions - it's not as if hand to hand combat is some kind of major tactic, but that doesn't mean its useless.

[Rafiq]

What argument have I lost? Is it your claim that the majority of people who complete a krav maga course, do so as IDF hand to hand specialists or something equivalent? Because if not I honestly have no clue what you're talking about

It's undeniable that there's a lot of bullshit martial arts courses that cater to civilians, but that doesn't mean martial arts itself is "useless as far as real fights go". It's just that they are not being taught how exactly to fight in real situations, but are being taught to fight within the parameters of their specific martial arts discipline. Often it is purely aesthetic and yes, isn't really applicable to most fighting scenarios. That doesn't mean the whole of martial arts is useless - often the world's military's will adopt and integrate several different fighting styles into their hand-to hand combat training for every which scenario. Being disciplined in learning balance, controlled and precise attacks, and so on give you a very good advantage in a fight.

[LiaSofia]

All martial arts are useful but not all of them will benefit a person in a street fight. Someone who does Tai Chi will be benefiting from it psychologically and physically but it would be useless as a form of self-defence. It just depends on a person's reasons for doing martial arts. Some might be more interested in the aesthetic side.

Krav Maga is meant to be particularly good for self-defence. Didn't the Israeli Army teach it?

[Sasha]

krav maga is (if properly trained with high contact sparring) certainly one of the best self defense/street fight systems you could learn, though i have noticed that you really need to keep it up, its mostly techniques and reflexes, while more traditional martial arts like for me kickboxing/muaythai "help" you more if you can only train less frequent as they just help in your stance, the experience of getting used to getting hit, knowing how to block an drunken swing, confidence etc etc.
also, good krav maga is pretty brutal and as its an system and not a sport kind of does your head in. the people i spar with while doing kickboxing i enjoy it if they manage to get a good punch or kick in because its a game, when i spar with the same person krav maga its a failure for me if i get hit, i get angry focussed and i want to destroy them by gorging out their eyes and smashing their groin.
its like shooting guns, if you plan to go to war you should do combat training on moving targets with combat weapons to acquire the most lethal skills possible and to desensitize you before you have to kill, if you just want some fun and be able to shoot if ever nescecary get a normal gun and join a standard range.

[LiaSofia]

Do women do krav maga? Sorry if this is a stupid question, it's just whenever I've seen videos of classes it's always been all-male. Unless they just separate the genders? And they've always looked like right-wing skinhead types so that's a bit off-putting.

[Sasha]

It's very popular for women as it puts lots of emphasis on fighting bigger and stronger opponents than you (and as such about every action ends with a punch or kick to the groin, very appealing for many women).
The emphasis is probably a bit more towards "self defense against attempted rape" and less "hand to hand combat against 7 armed attackers" which is more YouTube friendly.
If you train in a mixed group (i.e. not geared towards female selfdefense) I don't think you will meet a lot of real fascists, expect a lot of (wannabe) cops though and as its an system related to the IDF (for a lot of the higher teacher "ranks" you'll need to go to military academy in Israel) you'll probably will have to be able to bite back your opinions on the middle east when shit is getting messy again there.

[Viktor89]

I like Krav Maga and Muay Thai, KM is very good for self-defense.

[motion denied]

Does KM really "work" though?

I'm kind of skeptical how useful it would be during a life threatening situation (i know military use it but still)?

I'd think MT as a better option

[Viktor89]

If you want to be good at self-defense on the streets, such as defending yourself from a knife or iron bar attack or baseball bat, there is Kali Sikaran. Also some very effective moves in there for both defense and attack. I only trained KS for some year though, but it's good.

[The Disillusionist]

Get a gun. Learn how to shoot it. It's cheaper than years of martial arts practice, it's more effective, and virtually anyone can use one.

Fighting is generally just a means of competition between guys who want to prove who is tougher. In a confrontation with someone who really wants to cause you serious harm, dancing around and swinging your fists/feet is the last thing you want to be doing. Despite all the outlandish claims instructors like to make, Krav Maga and those other martial art systems are basically useless against a person who isn't willing to follow the rules of a "fight". That's why one of the most effective moves against any kind of martial artist is just a good old fashioned prison rush with some kind of sharp stabbing object. Of course, a gun is even more effective...

If you can't get a gun and find yourself in a life-threatening situation, I would recommend handing over your money or running away, because trying to throw your fists around will probably just get you killed.

All that being said, there are some situations in which self-defense can useful, most of them involving women (and occasionally men) in vulnerable positions. But those positions don't generally allow for choreography, theatrics, or acrobatics, and the self-defense systems that really work in those situations focus on "fighting dirty", i.e. groin kicks and eye gouges. That's the kind of stuff that is effective in realistic contexts, not sparring and stuff like that.

[BIXX]

TD, of course running away is the better option. But sometimes you're slower. Sometimes you don't wanna put your back to your attacker. Sometimes you dont have the time to run. Fuck off. Shit happens. You're a fucking idiot.

Muay Thai and BJJ I would say gives any person a huge edge over someone in a vulnerable position, without "choreography, theatrics, or acrobatics".

[The Disillusionist]

TD, of course running away is the better option. But sometimes you're slower. Sometimes you don't wanna put your back to your attacker. Sometimes you dont have the time to run. Fuck off. Shit happens. You're a fucking idiot.

Muay Thai and BJJ I would say gives any person a huge edge over someone in a vulnerable position, without "choreography, theatrics, or acrobatics".

I've had classes in BJJ. I don't know as much about Muay Thai. But I'm guessing that both of them wouldn't really be that effective against anyone with any kind of sharp object. You think anyone is gonna let you keep them in an arm-bar when they could be stabbing you? (Unless you are lucky enough to grab the arm with the knife). BJJ is actually one of the least practical fighting systems I can think of, as it's primarily groundfighting, and if you are fighting more than one person, all the other guy has to do is stomp on you while you're occupied. In real life, the ground is the last place you want to be. BJJ is mainly just sport fighting. Real life fighting in truly dangerous situations is all about fighting dirty and doing as much damage to vital/sensitive organs as possible, as quickly as possible. Ideally, the objective should be the death/incapacitation of the attacker with as little actual fighting as possible.

[Viktor89]

Get a gun. Learn how to shoot it. It's cheaper than years of martial arts practice, it's more effective, and virtually anyone can use one.

Fighting is generally just a means of competition between guys who want to prove who is tougher. In a confrontation with someone who really wants to cause you serious harm, dancing around and swinging your fists/feet is the last thing you want to be doing. Despite all the outlandish claims instructors like to make, Krav Maga and those other martial art systems are basically useless against a person who isn't willing to follow the rules of a "fight". That's why one of the most effective moves against any kind of martial artist is just a good old fashioned prison rush with some kind of sharp stabbing object. Of course, a gun is even more effective...

If you can't get a gun and find yourself in a life-threatening situation, I would recommend handing over your money or running away, because trying to throw your fists around will probably just get you killed.

All that being said, there are some situations in which self-defense can useful, most of them involving women (and occasionally men) in vulnerable positions. But those positions don't generally allow for choreography, theatrics, or acrobatics, and the self-defense systems that really work in those situations focus on "fighting dirty", i.e. groin kicks and eye gouges. That's the kind of stuff that is effective in realistic contexts, not sparring and stuff like that.

For someone who doesn't have any experience or hasn't trained any martial arts maybe, but for those who have it's basic knowledge that in some of them you also learn how to handle a situation where you are threatened with a gun. But of course this is for situations when the gunman points the weapon at you very close to you so you can grab it quickly and for a situation when you are sure you are going to be shot if you don't do something.

Knowing self defense techniques is very helpful if you are attacked on the street by someone who wants to fight with you. If you are being robbed, all trainers say always to the classes: give them the money or run, if you aren't an expert who has trained for years.

What you mention last is stuff that they teach you in KM for example, or Kali Sikaran also, if you look them up. Because it sounds like you think such techniques as throwing sand in the eyes, hitting the throat or putting a thumb in the eyes isn't included in self defense training such as KM, but it is. You seem to be thinking about Jackie Chan-moves and stuff like that in your post. But look up MMA, Muay Thai, Krav Maga, Kali Sikaran and you will see that it is very effective and very tough and useful if you learn it. Down to earth and useful in street fights.

[The Disillusionist]

For someone who doesn't have any experience or hasn't trained any martial arts maybe, but for those who have it's basic knowledge that in some of them you also learn how to handle a situation where you are threatened with a gun. But of course this is for situations when the gunman points the weapon at you very close to you so you can grab it quickly and for a situation when you are sure you are going to be shot if you don't do something.

In 99% of situations like that, trying something like that would get you killed, no matter how good at martial arts you were. However, as you say, if you are sure you are going to get shot, you might as well try something, I guess...



Knowing self defense techniques is very helpful if you are attacked on the street by someone who wants to fight with you. If you are being robbed, all trainers say always to the classes: give them the money or run, if you aren't an expert who has trained for years.

What you mention last is stuff that they teach you in KM for example, or Kali Sikaran also, if you look them up. Because it sounds like you think such techniques as throwing sand in the eyes, hitting the throat or putting a thumb in the eyes isn't included in self defense training such as KM, but it is. You seem to be thinking about Jackie Chan-moves and stuff like that in your post. But look up MMA, Muay Thai, Krav Maga, Kali Sikaran and you will see that it is very effective and very tough and useful if you learn it. Down to earth and useful in street fights.

Well that's good to know. At least martial arts have improved somewhat. I took "Kajukenbo" classes for a while though, and even though they were all about that "realistic self-defense" mumbo-jumbo (the instructor called kajukenbo the "art of street fighting"), it was really just the same old crap, with repetitive forms that assume the person you are fighting will act in an exactly predictable manner, and more dumb sparring. Though, to be fair, it's impossible to actually practice decent self-defense techniques when sparring, because you would hurt your partner, so there's not really any way to make it not be dumb.

[Viktor89]

That's why you practice it for years to be good at it and practice defending yourself with various positions, moves, etc from all kinds of possible hits and kicks. You can't be prepared for everything but you can be prepared and be able to defend yourself from simple kicks and punches and different techniques of holding the enemy down so he cannot harm you.

[The Disillusionist]

That's why you practice it for years to be good at it and practice defending yourself with various positions, moves, etc from all kinds of possible hits and kicks. You can't be prepared for everything but you can be prepared and be able to defend yourself from simple kicks and punches and different techniques of holding the enemy down so he cannot harm you.

This is my point though. Simple kicks and punches are what happen in your typical testosterone-laden highschool fight, they don't really happen in real-life dangerous situations. And if you hold the enemy down, an enemy who is intent on killing you, and if you are lucky enough that there isn't a second enemy stomping on your head, and if you are lucky enough that he doesn't have a weapon and/or is unable to use it.... then what do you do? Do you just hold him there until he gets bored and falls asleep?

Say you've got him in an arm bar.... do you sit around and wait, or do you break his arm? If you break his arm, then what? You've incapacitated that arm, which will probably be painful for that guy, but you've also sent the message that this guy is going to have to kill you to avoid further pain. He's still got another arm, as well as legs, and at that point you haven't given him much choice but to use them. Unless you figure out some way to incapacitate or kill him, you are just an idiot hanging on to this guy who wants to kill you.

I think a lot of martial arts greatly underestimates the desperation that is present during a violent fight. Life isn't a Van Damme/Seagal movie, you can't just punch a guy in the face or break his arm and expect him to slink off in shame. If it's a you or him situation, that other guy will do whatever it takes to stay alive.

[BIXX]

I've had classes in BJJ. I don't know as much about Muay Thai. But I'm guessing that both of them wouldn't really be that effective against anyone with any kind of sharp object. You think anyone is gonna let you keep them in an arm-bar when they could be stabbing you? (Unless you are lucky enough to grab the arm with the knife). BJJ is actually one of the least practical fighting systems I can think of, as it's primarily groundfighting, and if you are fighting more than one person, all the other guy has to do is stomp on you while you're occupied. In real life, the ground is the last place you want to be. BJJ is mainly just sport fighting. Real life fighting in truly dangerous situations is all about fighting dirty and doing as much damage to vital/sensitive organs as possible, as quickly as possible. Ideally, the objective should be the death/incapacitation of the attacker with as little actual fighting as possible.

Oh my god get the fuck out. I know people who fuck folks up using BJJ all the damn time (in fact one of my BJJ coaches got in a bar fight with a dude about a year ago, and absolutely destroyed him). Bjj and may Thai are extremely effective. If you wanna learn how to defend against a knife then there are numerous ways to learn. Seriously shut the fuck up.

[The Disillusionist]

Oh my god get the fuck out. I know people who fuck folks up using BJJ all the damn time (in fact one of my BJJ coaches got in a bar fight with a dude about a year ago, and absolutely destroyed him). Bjj and may Thai are extremely effective. If you wanna learn how to defend against a knife then there are numerous ways to learn. Seriously shut the fuck up.

Moron testosterone-laden martial arts instructors bragging about bar fights... Same old, same old...

[BIXX]

Moron testosterone-laden martial arts instructors bragging about bar fights... Same old, same old...

No, I was actually wondering about how it'd fare in real world situations. I said that I didn't feel wrestling (my background) would be as effective as Muay Thai. His response was that it can be, and he talked about his actual... You know, experience, to show that wrestling (or bjj, which is kinda similar) is actually useful.

But whatever. Show that you don't know what you're talking about. There are numerous examples where people used shit they learned in the gym to defend themselves, the fact that you're ignoring that shows that you're either trolling or just trying to justify why you don't like training. Which is OK, just don't be such an ass about it.

[The Disillusionist]

No, I was actually wondering about how it'd fare in real world situations. I said that I didn't feel wrestling (my background) would be as effective as Muay Thai. His response was that it can be, and he talked about his actual... You know, experience, to show that wrestling (or bjj, which is kinda similar) is actually useful.

But whatever. Show that you don't know what you're talking about. There are numerous examples where people used shit they learned in the gym to defend themselves, the fact that you're ignoring that shows that you're either trolling or just trying to justify why you don't like training. Which is OK, just don't be such an ass about it.

My point is that bar fights are just masculinity competitions, and very rarely have to do with any kind of realistic self-defense situation. Guys in bars usually follow rules of conduct when fighting. In real life, if someone really wants to do you harm and they know you can fight, they are probably going to stab you from behind, or jump you in some other way when you can't see them coming. Or... they are just going to stand more than three feet away, where you are absolutely powerless to stop them, and they are going to shoot you.

[keine_zukunft]

krav maga and kick boxing are best..krav probably the most useful and thai is good for learning good strikes and that is what you need in a street fight. doing like bjj is really useless in a street fight going to the floor is never good in the streets.

[Sewer Socialist]

The nice thing about Judo, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and SamBO (especially freestyle) is that they can be practiced at 100% if you want to.

Krav Maga has a similar disadvantage to traditional Jiu-Jitsu, or Japanese Jiu Jitsu, in that it's difficult to practice stomping someone's face in or gouging their eyes out. In feudal Japan, warriors regularly used these techniques on the battlefield. But today, people learning self-defense are not able to do so.

The US army teaches some BJJ to soldiers, Japan teaches its police officers Judo, and SamBO was originally developed by the Red Army; clearly they have real-life application. Plenty of street fights end up going to the ground.