Catalan independence

[RedWorker]

Only about 4 months left for the referendum about whether Catalonia should become independent from Spain. What are your thoughts on this issue?

[Blake's Baby]

I don't see independence as being helpful for the working class. But, having been involved with similar discussions about Scottish independence, I don't see the referendum as being a class issue at all. Whichever way it goes, capitalism still wins. Spanish state or new Catalan state probably doesn't make any significant difference.

[tuwix]

Only about 4 months left for the referendum about whether Catalonia should become independent from Spain. What are your thoughts on this issue?

That this issue is pretty irrelevant. If there were circumstances of Spanish revolution of the 30s, independence from the rest of Spain maybe would be significant. But now existence of even such capitalist state isn't possible. Spanish authorities will react military to suppress such independence.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I reckon I'd support Catalonia having independence if they wanted it because just like anyone they should have autonomy. I, however, take much more interest in Basque independence and have had sympathies for ETA.

[RedWorker]

I, however, take much more interest in Basque independence

Yes? What is more interesting about that? This is only nationalist aspirations.


and have had sympathies for ETA.

... an organization which merely kills random people, while claiming to be fighting for "independence" and "socialism".

They may have fought against Franco's dictatorship and that's about it. Any social support they may have had here collapsed when it became clear they were just a nationalist organization which performed arbitrary acts of violence along with random mentions of "socialism" without any real ideology.

[Devrim]

I reckon I'd support Catalonia having independence if they wanted it because just like anyone they should have autonomy. I, however, take much more interest in Basque independence and have had sympathies for ETA.

I'd presume that this is because reactionary nationalist nonsense is just more romantic when it comes packaged with guns.

Devrim

[Q]

I don't see independence as being helpful for the working class. But, having been involved with similar discussions about Scottish independence, I don't see the referendum as being a class issue at all. Whichever way it goes, capitalism still wins. Spanish state or new Catalan state probably doesn't make any significant difference.
Of course it is a class issue, for the exact reasons you state. It is a reactionary dividing up of our class along nationalist lines.

But you're right to say that capitalism will win regardless. While I'm more on the stance of a no campaign (are there any leftwing no campaigns in Catalonia?), I can also understand and could gather behind a boycott position, if that is a thing at all here.

[Црвена]

What I really want to happen in Catalonia is the thing that happened there in 1936.

Other than that, I'm just as torn as I am about Scottish independence. I always support less centralised government, but this isn't an independence movement for decentralisation, it's a nationalism-fest.

[RedWorker]

are there any leftwing no campaigns in Catalonia?

No, all existing known campaigns against independence are ran by people who are very reactionary and often associated with far-right ideologies.

[bricolage]

I don't see independence as being helpful for the working class. But, having been involved with similar discussions about Scottish independence, I don't see the referendum as being a class issue at all. Whichever way it goes, capitalism still wins. Spanish state or new Catalan state probably doesn't make any significant difference.
Ok it's not a class issue in that neither way is in the interests of the working class, buuutttt it is a class issue in that the Scottish referendum is likely to be divided on class terms. As far as I can tell the yes vote will be entrenched in the working class and the no vote in the middle class. I do think this is an important point to realise, especially for the English left.

[Thirsty Crow]

I don't see independence as being helpful for the working class. But, having been involved with similar discussions about Scottish independence, I don't see the referendum as being a class issue at all. Whichever way it goes, capitalism still wins. Spanish state or new Catalan state probably doesn't make any significant difference.

I don't think it is the case that this campaign for independence doesn't produce any effect. I take it as obvious that the Catalan bourgeoisie sees real potential for forwarding their own interests in this, and of course the campaign I mentioned is aimed at getting the working class on board. As such, it might not be of far reaching consequences, but I don't think anyone ought to underestimate the short term significance of nationalism in all of this.

[Blake's Baby]

Oh, I quite agree that the whole (set of) campaign(s) - for a yes vote or a no vote, in the case of Catalonia/Spain and Scotland UK - will fuel competing claims of nationalism, and these will be primarily be directed at the working class. What I meant was the class itself has no interest to be served by either a yes vote or a no vote. Whichever way either of the votes go, nationalism is the winner (unless there is a massive dissinterest in the votes and only a tiny amount actually vote, that might demonstrate that the working class has rejected the false choices).

Unless that hap[pens, I agree that the whole scenario is an attack on the consciousness of the working class.

[John Nada]

How does keeping people under a capitalist country they don't want to be a part of, promote internationalism? Arguing for a united Spain could just as easily be consider Spanish nationalism. The bourgeois boarders divide the proletariat. But what if the division already there, and a vote just makes it official? Won't it also divide the bourgeoisie to an extent? At worse I think it'd just be tangent to the greater class struggle.

[Q]

How does keeping people under a capitalist country they don't want to be a part of, promote internationalism? Arguing for a united Spain could just as easily be consider Spanish nationalism. The bourgeois boarders divide the proletariat. But what if the division already there, and a vote just makes it official? Won't it also divide the bourgeoisie to an extent? At worse I think it'd just be tangent to the greater class struggle.
To who are you replying, since no one is making the argument that a no vote, in and of itself, is strengthening internationalist values?

[Thirsty Crow]

How does keeping people under a capitalist country they don't want to be a part of, promote internationalism? Arguing for a united Spain could just as easily be consider Spanish nationalism. The bourgeois boarders divide the proletariat. But what if the division already there, and a vote just makes it official? Won't it also divide the bourgeoisie to an extent? At worse I think it'd just be tangent to the greater class struggle.
You should answer Q's question.
But while I'm at it, I'm not advocating any particular answer to this referendum. I'm concisely arguing that the project of Catalan independence is also and at the same time a project of pacifying the working class in a particular way; not only in Catalonia, but in Spain as well. The most important mechanism here is nationalism.

[Depardieu]

my admittedly superficial understanding is that the nationalist movement in catalonia is largely led by neoliberal bourgeois swine, or am i mistaken? as far as mainstream establishment politics are concerned, independence would yield a shift to the right. so no.

[John Nada]

To who are you replying, since no one is making the argument that a no vote, in and of itself, is strengthening internationalist values?Oh, sorry I was being a little lazy. It was a counterpoint to Blake's Baby's post that this vote in of itself is detrimental to working class consciousness, but it was also kind of a point to raise in general. Although re-reading this thread I could have written it better. I see the validity in argument that the vote is a diversion. But I was pointing out what might be good. I mean with the right-wing government in power, the monarchy and such high unemployment, I could understand why someone might just want to do something. At the same time if it results in a reactionary chauvinist state worse than it's current form that I'd oppose it.

[Blake's Baby]

Elizabeth R is Queen of Scotland more directly than Queen of England (her descent from the House of Stuart is more recent than her descent from the House of Tudor).

Salmond has said that an independent Scotland would be in the EU, in NATO, and would retain the monarchy (it is after all Scotland's monarchy, as I just pointed out). Can't see much there to get excited about.

On the other hand, people might vote yes with the belief that an independent Scotland could spend more on social welfare, for example.

But, I think that either way the vote goes, working class unity is going to suffer. The best result would be a massive lack of interest in the question.

[RedWorker]

I have the right to vote on Catalonia's independence and believe I will be voting no. Only two months left. I don't see an advantage to abstaining.

Any more arguments?

[Blake's Baby]

Do you think Greater Spanish nationalism is better than Catalan nationalism?

Do you see an advantage to the working class in the union?

If so, maybe you could explain why you think that. All we know so far is you don't like ETA.

[DDR]

The important question I belive is will the referendum take place or Mas is going to back off? And if it takes place, what is mariano, the cops, the army and the mossos (catalonian police) going to do?

The mossos already said that they are going to "respect the law" and will not allow the referendum to take place, but if it does, will us see tank going arround in Barna?

[RedWorker]

Do you think Greater Spanish nationalism is better than Catalan nationalism?

No. I reject nationalism of all kinds.


Do you see an advantage to the working class in the union?

First of all, I support that the referendum on the independent Catalan state takes place. However, I have not yet completely developed my political thought on self-determination and on the nation.

Spanish politics seem to be quickly evolving and turning towards the proletariat's favor, whereas we can see that the status quo in Catalonia is still to the right, and progress is much slower if not partly frozen.

Why should a person born in Catalonia have less rights in Spain, and a person born in Spain have less rights in Catalonia? Of course, it would be optimal that all persons would have the same rights everywhere, but in the absence of this, the next best thing can be supported.

I don't live exclusively in Catalonia but do move around within Spain, and I see no point to further complexity by having two states instead of one. Why is there to be a new state, with a new army, and a new currency?

It would probably mean leaving the European Union, along with other things. It is true that the European Union is a bourgeois club. But is Catalonia not also a bourgeois club? In other words, it affects national sovereignty, but not class sovereignty. This could very well be more negative than positive.

[Ocean Seal]

Only about 4 months left for the referendum about whether Catalonia should become independent from Spain. What are your thoughts on this issue?
Its basically the wet dream of most middle-aged petit bourgeois people so that they can save their precious tax money from going to those lazy jobless southerners.

[TheEmancipator]

The basis of the CiU's separatist ideology is this new, selfish brand of ideological capitalism that is also popping up in places like Flanders and Northern Italy. Catalonia is Spain's most industrialised region and accounts for 18.9% of Spanish GDP IIRC. What CiU want to do is make sure the Madrid government do not transfer Catalan taxes to working class Andalusians and Asturians whose regions was pretty much forgotten during the Franco years. You're average CiU voter is your cynical middle to upper-middle class frustrated employee who hates the government for what happened in 2008, and rightly so. I honestly think you ask CiU voters if they vote for CiU in order to promote Catalan national identity, and they'll laugh in your face. The fact is Catalan national identity already exists and has already developed in a non-political movement that was notorious for its non-violent approach called ''seny catalá'' (contrast this to Euzkadi, whose manifestation of national identity was firmly rooted in violent opposition to Castillan central government).

So your average apolitical post-modern man who votes for Mas' neo-liberal party or his coalition parnter's christian democratic party (both of whom form the catch-all CiU) are doing so for socio-economic reasons - simply because Mas is basically adopted the same economic policies as the PP would except he's allowed to criticise the central government and wave his Catalan flag - of course he was going to be popular. Once Catalans realised that Mas was as austerian as the Castillans he lost big in the recent elections.

So to conclude, it's really hard to tell whether they are voting for the CiU because of a will for independence, because they would rather the CiU in power than the PP or PSC or because people are selfish these days and are brought up to hate social programmes for underdeveloped regions all around Europe. Probably a bit of all three.

The jury is still out as to what Esquerra Republicana would bring to the table. Their popularity seems to be more founded on the the romanticist idea of a nostalgia for the (non-)independence circa 1930s than a genuine working class movement. In many ways it is more of a nationalist party than CiU who are just buying their voters with promises of less taxes. Before 2008 Esquerra Republicana were immensely popular because they were seen as the ones to fulfil the one final push for Catalan independence. However they allied themselves with the Catalan Socialists and the ICV (green devo-max advocates) and left a massive public deficit which was blamed for the economic crisis. You may associate left-wing politics with spending money that doesn't exist but I don't.

There's also Candidatura d’Unitat Popular who are a series of revolutionary leftist organisations that advocate the separation on the grounds of setting up a central planned economy based on solidarity. Hard to tell if they are a fully Marxist party or more like Syriza and Podemos so it would cool if someone could give their insight on what these guys are all about. Izquierda Unida are nowehere in Catalonia because they haven't decided whether or not Catalan should be independent.

[RedWorker]

CUP are nationalists who lack a real ideology, thus resorting to a discourse of populist sloganeering, claiming to want to apply "socialism" without defining it in any manner. Yet probably better than other parties. Their party logo contains a national flag, all said.

[Coggeh]

Of course it is a class issue, for the exact reasons you state. It is a reactionary dividing up of our class along nationalist lines.
Or its the expression of a peoples right to self determination.



But you're right to say that capitalism will win regardless. While I'm more on the stance of a no campaign (are there any leftwing no campaigns in Catalonia?), I can also understand and could gather behind a boycott position, if that is a thing at all here.
I disagree with the statement that capitalism will win regardless. I can't speak so much for the campaign in Catalonia but with regards Scotland the capitalist establishment has come out tooth and nail against independence, do you think thats just a coincidence ?

People in Scotland generally vote populist/centre-left. Just one tory mp was elected in scotland yet a tory government still decides how its run.I have no illusions in the bourgeois pro-independence parties however its quite clear that working class people in scotland want out of the far right wing policies they've been repeatedly subject to against their will, they have aspirations of a 'fairer' and a more equal Scotland (based on the traditional Nordic model). Undoubtedly the SNP have different aspirations (probably something similar to the disastrous Irish model) but scottish people can fight and can change that. They have a possibility of voting out the SNP, they've tried and failed many times to vote out labour and the tories. I've no illusions in bourgeois parliaments either but certainly independence would be a gain to the working class in Scotland.

[Coggeh]

No. I reject nationalism of all kinds..
Not all forms of nationalism are the same. Big difference between the nationalism of the oppressed and nationalism of the oppressor. Palestinian nationalism and Israeli Nationalism for example.

[Zukunftsmusik]

To dear even to make the implication that Scotland is somehow an oppressed nation à la Palestine is fucking vile.

[Ocean Seal]

I'd presume that this is because reactionary nationalist nonsense is just more romantic when it comes packaged with guns.

Devrim
Or independence is not neutral in terms of class interests. It either supports one side or the other. Seriously, its obviously more complicated than oh hey this is about the national identity. But if you want another page of cliches then have fun bro.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Or independence is not neutral in terms of class interests.

You're definitely right. Armed terrorist cells running around killing working class individuals is indeed not neutral in terms if class interest. In fact it runs contrary to it.


It either supports one side or the other.

Yes, it either supports one national capital or another.


Seriously, its obviously more complicated than oh hey this is about the national identity. But if you want another page of cliches then have fun bro.

So armed groups who fight for national independence isn't "about the national identity"? Then what is it about? The irony here is that the idea you put forth is itself a cliché: the "new left" cliché that the working class has any interest in national liberation movements, something, when not in the context of a revolutionary situation, not "even" Lenin would have supported.

[Blake's Baby]

...
I disagree with the statement that capitalism will win regardless. I can't speak so much for the campaign in Catalonia but with regards Scotland the capitalist establishment has come out tooth and nail against independence, do you think thats just a coincidence ? ...


Yeah, that Sir Brian Souter, class-fighting multi-millionaire homophobic business owner and well-known abuser of the working class, is such a lefty and that's why he was bankrolling the 'Yes' campaign.

I could understand anyone in Scotland wanting to vote 'Yes' to give the Tories a kicking, because they think all Westminister politicians are out of touch, or patronising snobs, or because fundamentally many people in England really have no idea what Scotland is like and that must be really really galling. But, really, don't pretend there is anything remotely 'anti-capitalist' about this.

[TheEmancipator]

What do people think of Tommy Sheridan on here?

[RedWorker]

So how come the left went crazy over Scottish independence but there's apparently nothing to be said on this?
What is behind Catalan independence? Who benefits most from it? Why/how was it boosted from a minority movement to the mass majority supporting it within a decade? Does the Catalan bourgeoisie have some interests against the Spanish bourgeoisie?

[laoch na phoblacht]

i'd love to see the them get there independence, i think its unlikely that the madrid government will allow the vote to go ahead though.

like in the basque county and Ireland there is a large republican movement in Catalonia, so it's not just simple nationalism

[Zukunftsmusik]

like in the basque county and Ireland there is a large republican movement in Catalonia, so it's not just simple nationalism

What do you mean by "simple nationalism" (as opposed to what? complex nationalism?)? And why do you think republicanism is at odds with it being "simple", or simply, nationalism?

[DDR]

So there's been a developments in the situation. On Friday the Catalonian Parlament approved the law that enables them to make a referendum about the seccesion of Catalonia, and set the date of said referendum on the 9th of November (wich was already agreed for more than a year). On Sunday President Mariano Rajoy sais that that it's inconstitutional and he is going to the Consitutional Court to challenge said law, and he does so the following day. Yesterday, President Mas sais he's going to put on hold the referendum for now, because of the challenge, so lots of Catalonians took the streets and camp in front of guvernamental buildings to protest the decision to put the referendum on hold. The mossos (Catalonian Police) disolved the camps in their style (beating the crap out of them) so the people had called for a new camping from today till the 9th of November.

Here's two articles, one in Spanish another in English, explaining a little bit what is going on:

Los Mossos desalojan una acampada a favor de la consulta ante la delegación del Gobierno (http://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/Mossos-desalojar-consulta-delegacion-Gobierno_0_308670382.html)

Catalonia Defies Spain by Calling Secession Vote (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2014/09/27/world/europe/ap-eu-spain-catalonia-independence.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpHeadline&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0)

[Martin Luther]

Very interesting events over the last few days.

From my understanding, Catalan independence draws support from all sectors of society, each with its own reasons. However, what unites them is some form of the idea that without Spain, everyone in Catalonia could be more prosperous. For everyone it's an easy answer to the effects of economic collapse, and for the working class it's an escape from the austerity politics imposed by Madrid. The basis for all of this is the idea of the Catalan nation and its historical oppression by Spain. I don't think this should be opposed on principle. This support as a matter of principle for the unity of bourgeois states on the part of the left is just unfathomable and unjustifiable. I don't buy the line that Scotland breaking away from Britain or Catalonia breaking away from Spain divides the working class. What unites them now that wouldn't unite them after independence? Rule by the state in question? The same reactionary parties?

The bottom line is that history shows two things: revolution cares nothing for borders, and the lack of borders guarantees nothing.

[RedWorker]

Catalonian independence to escape austerity in Spain? You must be oblivious to the cuts imposed by the ruling right-wing clique of Catalonia.
Catalan nation? You must mean the Catalonia bourgeois state.
Opposition to nationalism does not mean support of unity... which can be nationalist too.
The left parties must speak clearly: Independence will change nothing, it is only a minor detail in the organization of the bourgeois state.

[Martin Luther]

One of the rules of politics: What is is not as important as what seems.

[RedWorker]

Did not participate in this fooling of the people. Neither Catalonia nor Spain! Down with the bourgeois state! Down with nationalism!
The low turnout proves the success of the working class in this referendum, its indifference to such petty matters and its not taking part in either Spanish or Catalan nationalism.

[Blake's Baby]

Have you got a link to any good reports? If the turnout has been low, I'd regard that as something positive to come out of this.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

So armed groups who fight for national independence isn't "about the national identity"? Then what is it about? The irony here is that the idea you put forth is itself a cliché: the "new left" cliché that the working class has any interest in national liberation movements, something, when not in the context of a revolutionary situation, not "even" Lenin would have supported.

What is interesting is the way in which Lenin talks about the national question - e.g. underlining that the proletariat is to be absolutely neutral in the struggle of various national sections of the bourgeoisie for privileges. Lenin's support for national self-determination was as a weapon against nationalism, not in favour of "good" nationalism. And he clearly recognised the limits of the demand, e.g. when talking about Poland in WWI. It's a pity so many "Leninists" have a simple, black-and-white, oorah-good-nation view of national self-determination.

[Dodo]

I don't see independence as being helpful for the working class. But, having been involved with similar discussions about Scottish independence, I don't see the referendum as being a class issue at all. Whichever way it goes, capitalism still wins. Spanish state or new Catalan state probably doesn't make any significant difference.

it does make a difference....ethnic problems cloud class problems and create false conciousness.

[Blake's Baby]

OK. So do you think that small homogenous states that hate their neighbour are 'better' or 'worse' than large states where regions hate each other? Your comment doesn't really tell me much, except that you think that one of these is worse than the other.

Which, and why, is somewhat opaque at the moment.

[DDR]

It seems that arround 2 million people had voted, althought total population of Catalonia is something arround 7 million this turnout has been bigger than the turnouts of the European Constitution referendum and the Estatut referendum. It seems that the option of yes/yes (Do you want that Catalonia becomes a state? Do you want it to be independent?) has won, as soon as I can find reliabre sources I'll publish all the numbers.

[Dodo]

OK. So do you think that small homogenous states that hate their neighbour are 'better' or 'worse' than large states where regions hate each other? Your comment doesn't really tell me much, except that you think that one of these is worse than the other.

Which, and why, is somewhat opaque at the moment.

It depends. If "ethnic problem" remains like you said, then it can still cloud consciousness though I believe it is less likely then when they are together.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

What is interesting is the way in which Lenin talks about the national question - e.g. underlining that the proletariat is to be absolutely neutral in the struggle of various national sections of the bourgeoisie for privileges. Lenin's support for national self-determination was as a weapon against nationalism, not in favour of "good" nationalism. And he clearly recognised the limits of the demand, e.g. when talking about Poland in WWI. It's a pity so many "Leninists" have a simple, black-and-white, oorah-good-nation view of national self-determination.

Yes though the "strategic" national determination in the case of the USSR led to an independent Finland with which the USSR had border disputes, and which teamed up with Germany for a few years during WWII. So it's unclear whether it did more to undermine nationalists or to empower them in the long run.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Yes though the "strategic" national determination in the case of the USSR led to an independent Finland with which the USSR had border disputes, and which teamed up with Germany for a few years during WWII. So it's unclear whether it did more to undermine nationalists or to empower them in the long run.

It undermined nationalism among the workers. If the RSFSR had simply decided to annex Finland, Finnish rightists, keeping in mind the decades on national oppression of Finnish workers (and I don't mean imaginary slights such as "national insults", but fines for speaking "the wrong" language and so on), could portray the Bolsheviks as simple Great-Russian chauvinists. By upholding the right for the Finnish themselves to decide whether they wish to be joined with Russia or not, the Bolsheviks denied them this possibility.

A revolutionary state is not the same as a bourgeois state, particularly not when it comes to security. The security of the revolutionary state is the spreading of the revolution. The RSFSR could have annexed every piece of land around itself and made itself an impregnable fortress, but in the process it would have so alienated the advanced layers of the proletariat the isolation of the revolution would have done it in anyway.

[prap]

I like the idea of more and smaller countries, though i hate the idea of naionalism, so yeah i fully support the "independence-fighters". States who control smaller geographical areas would be easier to put down.

:)

[Blake's Baby]

Why? What diference does size make? If you have a state with 100 million people among whom 60million are workers that then breaks up into 100 states of 1 million people each, among 600,000 are workers, what has changed, excelpt that the 60 million workers are now told that anything bad that happens to 'their' country is the fault of the 59,400,000 other workers who were formerly their countrymen and women?

[prap]

Why? What diference does size make? If you have a state with 100 million people among whom 60million are workers that then breaks up into 100 states of 1 million people each, among 600,000 are workers, what has changed, excelpt that the 60 million workers are now told that anything bad that happens to 'their' country is the fault of the 59,400,000 other workers who were formerly their countrymen and women?

The revolution would be less "turbulent" i guess.

[Dodo]

I might be biased in this Blake but "anti-seperatism" fills up a great deal of conciousness in the minds and gives the state a lot of tools to change direction. Also, any revolutionary movement becomes subject to other sorts of accusations such as "traitors, imperialist tools, seperatists" by using reactionary rhetoric. As a Marxist, I had to debate a whole lot more over Kurdish issue than workers rights....one day, 300 worker dies in a mine..a week later, news are on separatist activity and protests.
You should consider how much "anti-seperatist" thinking becomes a tool of the ruling class...they threaten lives of revolutionaries because they have different relations to seperatists.

If you ask an average worker in Turkey what the biggest problem in the country is....they will not point to obviously corrupt regime, in fact some even say they are okay with that...but everyone will channel a great deal of hatred to seperatists. Forming of a lynch mob can a happen in a matter of seconds.
I don't know where you are from but in "developing world" seperatist activity is viewed differently.

[prap]

Why? What diference does size make? If you have a state with 100 million people among whom 60million are workers that then breaks up into 100 states of 1 million people each, among 600,000 are workers, what has changed, excelpt that the 60 million workers are now told that anything bad that happens to 'their' country is the fault of the 59,400,000 other workers who were formerly their countrymen and women?
I meant that the revolution wouldn't be so "turbulent".

[Blake's Baby]

Isn't that part of the problem? You just said that ethnic hatred is problem, isn't the solution for Turkish and Kurdish workers to attempt to overcome those divisions and fight against the bourgeoisie not each other?

[Dodo]

Isn't that part of the problem? You just said that ethnic hatred is problem, isn't the solution for Turkish and Kurdish workers to attempt to overcome those divisions and fight against the bourgeoisie not each other?

Turkish workers lynch Kurdish workers...."they take our jobs"
they are inferior village mobs to the average Turkish conservative as well according to them....middle class Turks who have a strong influence too hate the Kurds and view them as the obstacle to our "Europeanization"....Racism is rampant in Turkey and while many revolutionaries side with Kurds, on the mainstream news and in the minds of masses they are just a bunch of marginals...So revolutionary organisations end up losing their identity to the masses and are only recognized by a bunch of other left radical left groups who can't agree with over the simplest thing. Many rev-orgs don't even have an identity next to Kurdish movement in the eyes of masses.

The Kurdish movement has absorbed all "revolutionary workers" activity whether intentionally or not. The state, the media, the masses have made that the case...last time we had a massive workers movement was 23 years ago or so, just before Kurdish issue fired up to serious levels.
Some more "nationalist" leaning left groups talk of workers action together but no one really takes those slogans seriously at this moment.
Its especially easy for us Turks to say these things...those who suffer daily for their identity are Kurds. They want something asap.

[Blake's Baby]

Well, I'll just sit waiting for Leo to show up. As a Kurd, in Turkey, arguing for exactly the kind of internationalist position that I'm expressing, I'm sure he will have something to say about this.

[RedWorker]

Catalan minister admits independence demand used to divert social unrest

"If this country had not put forward a discourse based on nationalism, how would it have weathered adjustments of over 6,000 million euros", said a minister of Catalonia.

WSWS article (http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/12/18/cata-d18.html)
alternate source (right-wing) (http://cat.elpais.com/cat/2014/12/10/catalunya/1418207489_009916.html)