Zionists and Jews

[Diogenese]

Comrades I have to admit for a while I was ignorant on this as I assumed all jews supported Israel therefore I hated all jews. Then I saw a group of Orthodox jews give a speech at a rally in NYC, I literally cried the entire time, I felt all the hate dissipate and leave my body. They hate Israel more then I ever did because they view Israel as recuperating their religion their symbols and beliefs and spreading antisemitism around the world. Just do a search for Jews against Israel on youtube and you'll see what I mean. I have always had an enormous respect for the Jewish people and their religion, I always support the oppressed and those who practice what they believe even if it is contrary to my ideology, but the Zionist actions over the past century had clouded those feeling with hate, as I imagine it did for many comrades. If you are one such comrade then I hope my sharing of the wisdom I've attained has helped you rid yourself of such misplaced hate.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

Comrades I have to admit for a while I was ignorant on this as I assumed all jews supported Israel therefore I hated all jews. Then I saw a group of Orthodox jews give a speech at a rally in NYC, I literally cried the entire time, I felt all the hate dissipate and leave my body. They hate Israel more then I ever did because they view Israel as recuperating their religion their symbols and beliefs and spreading antisemitism around the world. Just do a search for Jews against Israel on youtube and you'll see what I mean. I have always had an enormous respect for the Jewish people and their religion, I always support the oppressed and those who practice what they believe even if it is contrary to my ideology, but the Zionist actions over the past century had clouded those feeling with hate, as I imagine it did for many comrades. If you are one such comrade then I hope my sharing of the wisdom I've attained has helped you rid yourself of such misplaced hate.

As much as you might try, it is impossible to transfer an epiphany or moving experience by direct communication. The abstract words become the focus because words cannot transmit actual experiences, only the senses can do that... and they can't to another person.

So I appreciate you putting this up but perhaps you ought to look at another literary style to communicate your passions. Try putting across your ideas as a distant narrative, loosely related to yourself, instead of a first person experience.

[Revolver]

It seems a bit odd to hate Israel; Israel is a nation state like any other, it just has a set of policies that are ultranationalist which, admittedly, any person is wise to oppose rather strongly. Opposition to these policies certainly requires no hatred of Jews; indeed a principled opposition to Israel's policies requires the opposite, just as a principled opposition to, say, Nazi Germany required more than embracing Russian or English or American nationalism and would also prohibit embracing opposition to ethnic Germans as such. That does not require an endorsement of nationalism, of course, any more than opposing Israel's actions requires embracing Palestinian nationalism or political Islam.

Sometimes it is easier for comrades to examine an analogous situation that has more political distance, such as Sinhalese nationalism in Sri Lanka or the conflict in Northern Ireland. Opposing Theravadin extremism does not require anyone to embrace Tamil suicide bombers or other manifestations of Tamil resistance, including Tamil nationalism. Within the context of Israel, the recent history of, and widespread familiarity with, the Holocaust and the more recent political events in Israel distorts this perception.

It goes without saying that no one needs to extend any special consideration to any member of a religious group, or ethnic group, to prove that their opposition is not rooted in prejudice. This need to demonstrate special consideration is simply a side effect of a Zionist tendency to conflate opposition to Israeli policies with anti-Semitism, which, however self-serving it may be in the short term, is a long term recipe for disaster. Moreover, the reason for the opposition to Israel among some ultra-Orthodox groups is about as logical as the reason for evangelical support of the state's policies.

[Diogenese]

As much as you might try, it is impossible to transfer an epiphany or moving experience by direct communication. The abstract words become the focus because words cannot transmit actual experiences, only the senses can do that... and they can't to another person.

So I appreciate you putting this up but perhaps you ought to look at another literary style to communicate your passions. Try putting across your ideas as a distant narrative, loosely related to yourself, instead of a first person experience.

Way to get technical and off topic, you must be a situationist. This is not a literary style, such is the way I speak so I spoke. However, do you have anything to say related to zionism or jews?

[Diogenese]

It seems a bit odd to hate Israel; Israel is a nation state like any other, it just has a set of policies that are ultranationalist which, admittedly, any person is wise to oppose rather strongly. Opposition to these policies certainly requires no hatred of Jews; indeed a principled opposition to Israel's policies requires the opposite, just as a principled opposition to, say, Nazi Germany required more than embracing Russian or English or American nationalism and would also prohibit embracing opposition to ethnic Germans as such. That does not require an endorsement of nationalism, of course, any more than opposing Israel's actions requires embracing Palestinian nationalism or political Islam.

Sometimes it is easier for comrades to examine an analogous situation that has more political distance, such as Sinhalese nationalism in Sri Lanka or the conflict in Northern Ireland. Opposing Theravadin extremism does not require anyone to embrace Tamil suicide bombers or other manifestations of Tamil resistance, including Tamil nationalism. Within the context of Israel, the recent history of, and widespread familiarity with, the Holocaust and the more recent political events in Israel distorts this perception.

It goes without saying that no one needs to extend any special consideration to any member of a religious group, or ethnic group, to prove that their opposition is not rooted in prejudice. This need to demonstrate special consideration is simply a side effect of a Zionist tendency to conflate opposition to Israeli policies with anti-Semitism, which, however self-serving it may be in the short term, is a long term recipe for disaster. Moreover, the reason for the opposition to Israel among some ultra-Orthodox groups is about as logical as the reason for evangelical support of the state's policies.

Opposition grows to hatred, I hate the word hate itself, I only reserve it for zionists and fascists.
I am familiar with the Tamil struggle and do support them as I stated I support all oppressed. I do not support nationalism but I do support their right to self determination.

[Rosa Partizan]

Comrades I have to admit for a while I was ignorant on this as I assumed all jews supported Israel therefore I hated all jews. Then I saw a group of Orthodox jews give a speech at a rally in NYC, I literally cried the entire time, I felt all the hate dissipate and leave my body. They hate Israel more then I ever did because they view Israel as recuperating their religion their symbols and beliefs and spreading antisemitism around the world. Just do a search for Jews against Israel on youtube and you'll see what I mean. I have always had an enormous respect for the Jewish people and their religion, I always support the oppressed and those who practice what they believe even if it is contrary to my ideology, but the Zionist actions over the past century had clouded those feeling with hate, as I imagine it did for many comrades. If you are one such comrade then I hope my sharing of the wisdom I've attained has helped you rid yourself of such misplaced hate.

is this shit serious? You felt your hate dissipate? No, you just "diverted" it, you're still full of shit, the only thing that changed is that now you have some company you could join. Orthodox Jews are pretty reactionary, but as long as it serves some higher purpose like hating on "ordinary" Jews it's all fine. This is the reason why in Germany you see anti-imps protesting along with nationalists, fascists and islamists. Jews are the only group of people that unifies people from any political stance in terms of hating. A jewish restaurant was smashed, awesome form of worker's protest, huh. And then you go on saying "I've always had respect for the Jewish people", but look what you said some lines ago. Schizophrenia much? Who are the Zionists anyway? In these protests, this has become a synonym of Jew.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

orthodox jews are opposed to zionism from the right; from a reactionary perspective. They believe that by viewing Judaism as an ethnicity (i.e. as a group of people who can co-habit in a Jewish country according to shared cultural capital), Zionism dilutes Judaism of its religious content and context.

OP is full of shit. If it takes listening to orthodox jews making reactionary criticisms of a fucking nation-state to stop their anti-semitism, then i'd charge that their anti-semitism runs a lot deeper than their new-found compassion.

Ultimately, it is highly idiotic to associate all jews with Israel, just as it is idiotic to associate all Muslims with the actions of al-qaeda and its offshoots and nations like Saudi Arabia and, ultimately, it is just as idiotic as associating all christians with the actions of countries like America and Britain.

It's anti-semitism, pure and simple. There's only so much lipstick you can put on that pig.

[Diogenese]

is this shit serious? You felt your hate dissipate? No, you just "diverted" it, you're still full of shit, the only thing that changed is that now you have some company you could join. Orthodox Jews are pretty reactionary, but as long as it serves some higher purpose like hating on "ordinary" Jews it's all fine. This is the reason why in Germany you see anti-imps protesting along with nationalists, fascists and islamists. Jews are the only group of people that unifies people from any political stance in terms of hating. A jewish restaurant was smashed, awesome form of worker's protest, huh. And then you go on saying "I've always had respect for the Jewish people", but look what you said some lines ago. Schizophrenia much? Who are the Zionists anyway? In these protests, this has become a synonym of Jew.

As stated this message was for Comrades, not zionists such as yourself. I diverted my hatred from all jews to just zionists. If you want to defend the existence of a nation state go spew your fascist bullshit in the Opposing Views section.
ps. samo jedes govna

[Delusional Kid]

Comrades I have to admit for a while I was ignorant on this as I assumed all jews supported Israel therefore I hated all jews. Then I saw a group of Orthodox jews give a speech at a rally in NYC, I literally cried the entire time, I felt all the hate dissipate and leave my body. They hate Israel more then I ever did because they view Israel as recuperating their religion their symbols and beliefs and spreading antisemitism around the world. Just do a search for Jews against Israel on youtube and you'll see what I mean. I have always had an enormous respect for the Jewish people and their religion, I always support the oppressed and those who practice what they believe even if it is contrary to my ideology, but the Zionist actions over the past century had clouded those feeling with hate, as I imagine it did for many comrades. If you are one such comrade then I hope my sharing of the wisdom I've attained has helped you rid yourself of such misplaced hate.

How long ago was this?
It's a bit weird to hate all Jews because of Israel's actions..
Tell me, did you ever hate all whites because of the actions of America or European nations?

[Slavic]

;2773650']How long ago was this?
It's a bit weird to hate all Jews because of Israel's actions..
Tell me, did you ever hate all whites because of the actions of America or European nations?

You'd be surprised how many "leftists" hold this exact sentiment.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

You'd be surprised how many "leftists" hold this exact sentiment.

*cough* tumblr people

Oh and third worldists

[Delusional Kid]

You'd be surprised how many "leftists" hold this exact sentiment.
Reminds of the rightists that wanted/want to kill all Muslims because of 911.

[Diogenese]

;2773650']How long ago was this?
It's a bit weird to hate all Jews because of Israel's actions..
Tell me, did you ever hate all whites because of the actions of America or European nations?

I did, and I'm as white as they come, and whites still haven't atoned for all they've done. They still exploit those of different skin color to make their gadgets, mow their lawns, maids, caretakers, cannon fodder etc.

[Delusional Kid]

I did, and I'm as white as they come, and whites still haven't atoned for all they've done. They still exploit those of different skin color to make their gadgets, mow their lawns, maids, caretakers, cannon fodder etc.

That is true, whites are the most privileged, and I should add that MOST Jews are white, but when you say hate that implies you think all members of that group aren't worthy of being treated with humanity or dignity.

[Diogenese]

;2773681']That is true, whites are the most privileged, and I should add that MOST Jews are white, but when you say hate that implies you think all members of that group aren't worthy of being treated with humanity or dignity.

Exactly, that is why I reserve the word hate only for those whose actions show a disregard for humanity or dignity of an entire people, whether they be fascist or zionist.

[Slavic]

I did, and I'm as white as they come, and whites still haven't atoned for all they've done. They still exploit those of different skin color to make their gadgets, mow their lawns, maids, caretakers, cannon fodder etc.

I wasn't aware that I had to atone for my original sin of being born white.

Mind aswell start wearing a hair shirt and live as a hermit in the mountains. Cause you know, having to live in a capitalist county means I'm a white bigoted oppressor.

[Diogenese]

I wasn't aware that I had to atone for my original sin of being born white.

Mind aswell start wearing a hair shirt and live as a hermit in the mountains. Cause you know, having to live in a capitalist county means I'm a white bigoted oppressor.

If you don't think that living in a capitalist country makes you an oppressor then what the fuck are you doing here? If your only idea of opposing capitalism is primitivism, again, what the fuck are you doing here? If you're here to learn then keep your mouth shut until you have something worthy to tell your comrades.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Ok well, Diogenese is obviously a troll.

[Diogenese]

Ok well, Diogenese is obviously a troll.

No I just didn't realize I was in the company of so many fucking fascists that I would have to explain my views.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

No I just didn't realize I was in the company of so many fucking fascists that I would have to explain my views.

You gave yourself away with the "atone for your white sins" thing and calling people fascists. Look, I get it. You're doing that whole parody/caricature of the Left. You made it too obvious though.

Next.

[Slavic]

If you don't think that living in a capitalist country makes you an oppressor then what the fuck are you doing here? If your only idea of opposing capitalism is primitivism, again, what the fuck are you doing here? If you're here to learn then keep your mouth shut until you have something worthy to tell your comrades.

Apparently working for money so I can buy food makes me an oppressor, who would have thought.

[Diogenese]

You gave yourself away with the "atone for your white sins" thing and calling people fascists. Look, I get it. You're doing that whole parody/caricature of the Left. You made it too obvious though.

Next.

Psycho how bout you go eat shit somewhere else and not in my topic thread. For your information my relatives died for communism, I was born a communist, so stop calling yourself a revolutionary leftist if you're not willing to call yourself a comrade.

[Diogenese]

Apparently working for money so I can buy food makes me an oppressor, who would have thought.

Looks like you're catching on, keep learning not so much talking.

[Slavic]

Looks like you're catching on, keep learning not so much talking.

Oh man it all makes sense now. You must kill the oppressor in you. Suicide for western born white devils like me is obviously the only noble course of action for our accursed oppressive birth.

"Only in Death, Do we not Oppress" Who wishes to join me? Whites only.




If only I was born a communist like yourself.

[Diogenese]

Oh man it all makes sense now. You must kill the oppressor in you. Suicide for western born white devils like me is obviously the only noble course of action for our accursed oppressive birth.

"Only in Death, Do we not Oppress" Who wishes to join me? Whites only.




If only I was born a communist like yourself.

You do realize you are on the REVOLUTIONARY Left forum right? Revolution and evolution are the way not suicide and sarcasm.

If only you were born a communist maybe you wouldn't be spewing such ignorance and taking up space for comrades who actually have something to say.

I'm supposed to be the troll here? This is a rev left forum and all of you who are attacking me are doing it out of sheer ignorance or nationalism, so who the fuck is the troll here?

[Sea]

Comrades I have to admit for a while I was ignorant on this as I assumed all jews supported Israel therefore I hated all jews.lol whoops


Then I saw a group of Orthodox jews give a speech at a rally in NYC, I literally cried the entire time, I felt all the hate dissipate and leave my body. They hate Israel more then I ever did because they view Israel as recuperating their religion their symbols and beliefs and spreading antisemitism around the world. Just do a search for Jews against Israel on youtube and you'll see what I mean. I have always had an enormous respect for the Jewish people and their religion, I always support the oppressed and those who practice what they believe even if it is contrary to my ideology, but the Zionist actions over the past century had clouded those feeling with hate, as I imagine it did for many comrades.You have always respected the Jewish people and yet you have long hated them?

If you are one such comrade then I hope my sharing of the wisdom I've attained has helped you rid yourself of such misplaced hate.Your views are not wise. They are contradictory. The only reason that a Jew would be liable to support zionism is if they have been brainwashed into thinking that they should support zionism out of nationalism. This is really no different than other forms of patriotism when the regime in question is a colonial one. Other than this it makes not a shred of difference is someone is Jewish or not. Jews do not have some sort of moral raincloud hanging over them as a result of the crimes of some people who happen to be of the same ethnicity and happen to believe in the same bullshit god as they do. That would be stupid. And even more importantly, any so-called Jewishness of zionism is not the reason that zionism is bad. This last point is what separates us from antisemetic anti-zionists, who believe that zionism is bad because it is "Jewish". You seem to be confused on this. Stop hanging out with skinheads before you become a coke addict or something.
You do realize you are on the REVOLUTIONARY Left forum right? Revolution and evolution are the way not suicide and sarcasm.Revolution and sarcasm are the way, not suicide or evolution.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

Way to get technical and off topic, you must be a situationist. This is not a literary style, such is the way I speak so I spoke. However, do you have anything to say related to zionism or jews?

I'm on tapatalk so it's easy to ignore the forum a thread is situated in, I read your OP purely as a message to others of your experiences rather than an invitation to discussion. Hence the lack of political engagement.

When I said "literary style" I was referring to writing style, something which you (yourself) must have had because you were expressing your experiences to an audience with written/typed words. I thought that getting people to feel what moved you could be have been done more effectively in the manner I described rather than as a first person recollection of memories.

As for me being a situationist, I am not a person who engages in the construction of situations, as much as I'd love to. I have been influenced by the S.I. though, funnily enough. For your information, Kierkegaard is who I drew inspiration from for my post, not the S.I.


Finally, with regards to Zionism and the Jews, I've always made it clear that the Jews aren't a homogeneous bunch when it comes to having and organising a place they can call their own and reversing the state of the diaspora. Zionism was originally the belief that Jews should have their own land (nationalist), as far as I know, and in principle would appear to be the movement of an oppressed group attempting to produce some kind of unity against anti-semitism and against their vagabond status. Israel in actuality, however, seems to have corrupted any (if there ever were) positive, constructive parts of that desire by welding all sorts of auxiliary beliefs and principles like Jewish supremacism, apartheid, racism, ethnic cleansing, militant atheism (apparently) and even anti-semitism (paradoxically, but not so sure about this). All of these seem to obscure and bury any notions of harmonious coexistence that may have existed prior to Israel's own existence with regards to having their own state. Just by being a diverse ethno-religious group, I'm sure they had peaceful notions of Zionism somewhere. Regardless, that's pretty much been killed off now and has cast the Jews in a negative light, despite heated (and sidelined) opposition to Zionism from within the religious and secular Jewish community. It's clear that Zionism just isn't the best way to combat anti-semitism and that it's not comparable to black nationalism (as resistance by the oppressed), more like black supremacism.

[Sea]

I'm on tapatalk so it's easy to ignore the forum a thread is situated in, I read your OP purely as a message to others of your experiences rather than an invitation to discussion.No need to apologize. Your post is the best one in this thread.

[Slavic]

No need to apologize. Your post is the best one in this thread.

I'm jealous.

[Diogenese]

lol whoops

You have always respected the Jewish people and yet you have long hated them?
Your views are not wise. They are contradictory. The only reason that a Jew would be liable to support zionism is if they have been brainwashed into thinking that they should support zionism out of nationalism. This is really no different than other forms of patriotism when the regime in question is a colonial one. Other than this it makes not a shred of difference is someone is Jewish or not. Jews do not have some sort of moral raincloud hanging over them as a result of the crimes of some people who happen to be of the same ethnicity and happen to believe in the same bullshit god as they do. That would be stupid. And even more importantly, any so-called Jewishness of zionism is not the reason that zionism is bad. This last point is what separates us from antisemetic anti-zionists, who believe that zionism is bad because it is "Jewish". You seem to be confused on this. Stop hanging out with skinheads before you become a coke addict or something.Revolution and sarcasm are the way, not suicide or evolution.

Yes I respected the jewish people even when I hated them. Why is that so hard for you people to understand? I identified with their struggle for centuries against ignorant catholics and I respected that even after all of that they held on to their beliefs. My communist ideology was influenced by countless jews. I hated them because I thought they all supported what was being done to arabs. Its as simple as that, why so dense?

I have never hung out with any fascists thankfully or I'd be in jail for killing them. If you don't believe in the evolution of ideology then you're an absolutist, in my book the same as a fascist. I do coke few times a year, I can't afford to be addicted to something like that.

Once again, can we stop with the ignorance here, my hand is growing tired from slapping you *****es around.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

No need to apologize. Your post is the best one in this thread.

Not sure if serious.

[Diogenese]

Not sure if serious.

I don't think half the people on here understand the shit they're reading, yet they're compelled to comment. Thank you Rocinante at least you comment with some intellect.

[Atsumari]

Yes I respected the jewish people even when I hated them. Why is that so hard for you people to understand? I identified with their struggle for centuries against ignorant catholics and I respected that even after all of that they held on to their beliefs. My communist ideology was influenced by countless jews. I hated them because I thought they all supported what was being done to arabs. Its as simple as that, why so dense?

I have never hung out with any fascists thankfully or I'd be in jail for killing them. If you don't believe in the evolution of ideology then you're an absolutist, in my book the same as a fascist. I do coke few times a year, I can't afford to be addicted to something like that.

Once again, can we stop with the ignorance here, my hand is growing tired from slapping you *****es around.
Just stahp, the statements are making me want to grab a knife and cut myself to reduce the pain from the cringe.

You obviously know absolutely nothing about the American Jewish identity and Israel, you know nothing of anti-Semitism, and you seem to know very little about Zionism.
Also, the Neturei Karta is respected by many anti-Zionists, Arabs in particular the same way many American conservatives and racists love Thomas Sowell. They do not seem to care what they stand for, they are looking for someone to tokenize and that is exactly what you were doing.

[Diogenese]

Just stahp, the statements are making me want to grab a knife and cut myself to reduce the pain from the cringe.

You obviously know absolutely nothing about the American Jewish identity and Israel, you know nothing of anti-Semitism, and you seem to know very little about Zionism.
Also, the Neturei Karta is respected by many anti-Zionists, Arabs in particular the same way many American conservatives and racists love Thomas Sowell. They do not seem to care what they stand for, they are looking for someone to tokenize and that is exactly what you were doing.

Oh great another zionist and nationalist posing as a leftist. Seems to me I know more about zionism then you do about communism. Can you fascists stop posting in my thread.

If these arabs and persians are such anti semites then why did they protect them for over a thousand years from Christians? If Ahmedinejad was such an anti semite why didnt he banish or kill the 25,000 jews who live in Iran? Or maybe make them wear a yellow star like the europeans did almost a thousand years ago as well as in the past century. Why did the Ottomans send their navies to Spain to save jews from the inquisition? Why!? Because they respect them and view them as god fearing people, because they're NOT anti-semites but they DO want to see Israel wiped off the map.
Besides, do you realize the stupidity in calling arabs anti-semite since they're a semitic people?

[Atsumari]

Oh great another zionist and nationalist posing as a leftist. Seems to me I know more about zionism then you do about communism. Can you fascists stop posting in my thread.
Stop assuming that my criticisms against you are an apology for Israel and fascism. You have not even heard my stance on Israel yet lol



Besides, do you realize the stupidity in calling arabs anti-semite since they're a semitic people?
Goddamn you are clever.

[Diogenese]

Stop assuming that my criticisms against you are an apology for Israel and fascism. You have not even heard my stance on Israel yet lol

Don't care, you're still a nationalist, but thanks for taking the time to criticize me.

[PhoenixAsh]

Comrades I have to admit for a while I was ignorant on this as I assumed all jews supported Israel therefore I hated all jews. Then I saw a group of Orthodox jews give a speech at a rally in NYC, I literally cried the entire time, I felt all the hate dissipate and leave my body. They hate Israel more then I ever did because they view Israel as recuperating their religion their symbols and beliefs and spreading antisemitism around the world. Just do a search for Jews against Israel on youtube and you'll see what I mean. I have always had an enormous respect for the Jewish people and their religion, I always support the oppressed and those who practice what they believe even if it is contrary to my ideology, but the Zionist actions over the past century had clouded those feeling with hate, as I imagine it did for many comrades. If you are one such comrade then I hope my sharing of the wisdom I've attained has helped you rid yourself of such misplaced hate.

Yet your supposed respect wasn't so great that you could afford five minutes of your time to do a google search and actually learn what zionism and judaism are.

What you are telling us here is that you were simply just another fuckwit protesting what they don't understand for the sake of protesting....until they had an epiphany. Plus that you are an anti-semite.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Besides, do you realize the stupidity in calling arabs anti-semite since they're a semitic people?
Yes, but antisemitism specifically refers to Jews, not all Semitic peoples.

[Diogenese]

Yet your supposed respect wasn't so great that you could afford five minutes of your time to do a google search and actually learn what zionism and judaism are.

What you are telling us here is that you were simply just another fuckwit protesting what they don't understand for the sake of protesting....until they had an epiphany. Plus that you are an anti-semite.

Yeah I had an epiphany, hence the post to share my epiphany with other comrades so that they don't become anti-semites themselves. Sorry I didn't have the luxury of growing up in a non jew hating culture and didn't have access to this information. You would think people would know something like this but they don't because Zionists control the media.

If I'm not mistaken I did post this in the LEARNING section did I not? In that case why don't we just get rid of the Learning section and just tell people to google stuff. asshole.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

You would think people would know something like this but they don't because Zionists control the media.
One of the oldest antisemitic tropes is "the Jews control everything". Substituting the word "Zionists" doesn't make it any better.

[Diogenese]

Yes, but antisemitism specifically refers to Jews, not all Semitic peoples.

so say the zionists.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

so say the zionists.
I take it you're not familiar with Wilhelm Marr.

[Diogenese]

One of the oldest antisemitic tropes is "the Jews control everything". Substituting the word "Zionists" doesn't make it any better.

Hmm, and here I thought this entire thread was about that.
If the Zionists don't control it then please enlighten me as to who does?
Here in the US jews make up about 2% of the population yet have 10 senators all zionists. Atheists make up anywhere from 6 to 20% and have 0 representation. Are you gonna make the point that jews are just more organized? Yes me too..

Listen if you fascists and zionists keep insist on attacking me for what have always been leftist views then at least send me someone worthy. Your arguments are pathetic and your reasoning hollow.

[Decolonize The Left]

OP, I see that you joined in March of 2013 and have only made 33 posts in over a year. I assume that during this time you have spent enough of your life reading this forum to understand the basics. Hence I'm left to conclude that you're either a complete fucking moron who is totally incapable of understanding basic concepts like Zionism, Judaism, communism, and revolutionary leftism, OR, that you're trolling. I am inclined to believe the latter.

Also, your conduct in this thread is totally unacceptable. You have insulted other board members and behaved like a child. You should obviously be warned for your actions and I would argue that you should be restricted for your antisemitic position. However, if you are trolling (and I think you are) then you will respond in kind to this post and I will be forced to post baby animal pictures in response to every post you make until you are banned. You have been warned. ;)

[Diogenese]

OP, I see that you joined in March of 2013 and have only made 33 posts in over a year. I assume that during this time you have spent enough of your life reading this forum to understand the basics. Hence I'm left to conclude that you're either a complete fucking moron who is totally incapable of understanding basic concepts like Zionism, Judaism, communism, and revolutionary leftism, OR, that you're trolling. I am inclined to believe the latter.

Also, your conduct in this thread is totally unacceptable. You have insulted other board members and behaved like a child. You should obviously be warned for your actions and I would argue that you should be restricted for your antisemitic position. However, if you are trolling (and I think you are) then you will respond in kind to this post and I will be forced to post baby animal pictures in response to every post you make until you are banned. You have been warned. ;)

Wow, and I'm the one acting like a child, go ahead post your pictures, your "board member" chose to insult and call me names first if we're gonna go down that route.
I've already explained my position on trolling and dont wish to repeat myself. I didn't post much because I didn't have to say much or it was already said, I agreed with a lot of positions on here and thanked posts from time to time.
If I'm gonna get "banned" from a rev left forum for being an anti zionist then so be it you people are no comrades of mine defending nationalism with the blood of others and threatening peoples beliefs with authority.
I thought my initial post was in good faith and was reaching out to other comrades. I did not expect the pro zionist reaction.
I've been part of the left for over 10 years, I've met hundreds of anarchists and communists on both sides of the atlantic and not one supported Israel, at least not to my face, which leads me to believe that this forum has been completely infiltrated by fascists, zionists and other pigs.
So ban me, good day you posers.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

If the Zionists don't control it then please enlighten me as to who does?
In a capitalist society, the media reflects the ideology of the capitalist class.


Here in the US jews make up about 2% of the population yet have 10 senators all zionists. Atheists make up anywhere from 6 to 20% and have 0 representation. Are you gonna make the point that jews are just more organized? Yes me too..
No, I'm going to make the point that enough American voters have a bias against atheists.


Listen if you fascists and zionists keep insist on attacking me for what have always been leftist views then at least send me someone worthy. Your arguments are pathetic and your reasoning hollow.
I'm neither a fascist nor a Zionist. You, however, are expressing classic antisemitic ideas, and you should be restricted to OI with the rest of the rubbish.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I've been part of the left for over 10 years, I've met hundreds of anarchists and communists on both sides of the atlantic and not one supported Israel
I don't support Israel, and neither do most posters here, so what are you on about?

[Delusional Kid]

I don't support Israel, and neither do most posters here, so what are you on about?

To be fair, I have noticed a few rather quite vocal anti-germans on here.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

There's one and she does it ironically, which is too much to handle for a lot of people apparently.

[DOOM]

As stated this message was for Comrades, not zionists such as yourself. I diverted my hatred from all jews to just zionists. If you want to defend the existence of a nation state go spew your fascist bullshit in the Opposing Views section.
ps. samo jedes govna

But she's right. Modern antisemitism is known for not using the word jew to describe jews. You're using the word "zionist" almost mythically, giving "zionists" ideological attributes that are commonly known to be "jewish". Your antizionism is obviously motivated by some deep antisemitic bias.
Ah bas si mi cudan titic anarhista :laugh:

[DOOM]

so say the zionists.

Antisemitism is defined as hatred towards jews justified by regressive anticapitalism (the jews control the market).
You won't hear ever someone complaining about the arab financial capital
You're being ridiculously antisemitic.

[PhoenixAsh]

Yeah I had an epiphany, hence the post to share my epiphany with other comrades so that they don't become anti-semites themselves. Sorry I didn't have the luxury of growing up in a non jew hating culture and didn't have access to this information. You would think people would know something like this but they don't because Zionists control the media.

If I'm not mistaken I did post this in the LEARNING section did I not? In that case why don't we just get rid of the Learning section and just tell people to google stuff. asshole.

Member posting thread on the internet about his ignorant bigotry while actively protesting and organizing didn't once inform himself what he was protesting because he didn't have access to internet to do a 5 minute google research (...but instead had his opinion swayed by one of the most reactionary forces in Israel.)

Excuse me for for pointing out that this sounds an awful lot like the "I am not racist because I have black friends" and the "I met a nice black person". This however does not make you less of a bigot. Nor does it make it less problematic that you were actively organizing and protesting something you knew fuck all about.

Member also claims he respected the people he hated for being, ironically, everything he said he hates. Sure.

You posted this in learning. People should indeed learn from this.

[Ocean Seal]

is this shit serious? You felt your hate dissipate? No, you just "diverted" it, you're still full of shit, the only thing that changed is that now you have some company you could join. Orthodox Jews are pretty reactionary, but as long as it serves some higher purpose like hating on "ordinary" Jews it's all fine. This is the reason why in Germany you see anti-imps protesting along with nationalists, fascists and islamists. Jews are the only group of people that unifies people from any political stance in terms of hating. A jewish restaurant was smashed, awesome form of worker's protest, huh. And then you go on saying "I've always had respect for the Jewish people", but look what you said some lines ago. Schizophrenia much? Who are the Zionists anyway? In these protests, this has become a synonym of Jew.
Who are the Zionists? If you have to ask that question then you truly have very little respect for the strife of the people living in the largest open air prison in the world. Zionists are those who support the war effort, and the continued oppression of Gaza.
And as for the argument that the glorious socialists are marching with "Islamists/nationalists," you should know that socialists (people who tend to care about social issues you know) have always marched with unsavory groups when it comes to standing for something (this doesn't mean that we will tow the party line for any of these folks, but rather that we march together and think separately. The civil rights movement had black nationalists, and the immigration rights movement has Aztlan groups, and neither of their points are salient.

But we don't stand with the KKK, or with La Migra because their are unsavory groups within liberation movements. We oppose them, but continue the struggle against apartheid.

[Revolver]

I used to avoid the use of the term "Zionist" because it seemed odd to have a special designation or term for Jewish nationalism as opposed to other forms. The term is also used very loosely in some circles, so it can be conflated with Jews. My thoughts on this are as follows:

1. I dislike the term "anti-Zionist" because it isolates Jewish nationalism and therefore either privileges it as a special case or alternatively stigmatizes it as something that is particularly worthy of rejection. The only way that I can buy into the latter is if you are a supporter of civic nationalism and an opponent of ethnic nationalism, a' la Shlomo Sand or some of the other critics of Zionism. Most left opponents of Zionism do not support ethnic nationalism or nationalism, and the better classification is "non-Zionist" for that perspective, with "anti-" reserved for a broader, anti-nationalist perspective.

2. Zionism is a difficult term because it has a number of forms. But there are some important consistencies across those forms, reflected in the Jewish Virtual Library definition: "Its general definition means the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel." From this you can break it down to two components, the first (largely non-problematic) being "the return of the Jewish people to their homeland." While that may be inaccurate (in what meaningful way can a group of people who have largely lived outside of that place for over a thousand years be said to claim it as a homeland?), it isn't necessarily incompatible with humanist principles to support a movement that would have Jews return to their homeland.
Where it gets tricky, of course, is the qualifier “national” and, more importantly, the emphasis on “Jewish sovereignty.” As a practical matter and as evidenced by the historical record, this means Jewish supremacy within both Israel proper and Greater Israel beyond the Green Line. Before 1966, Palestinian Arabs in “Israel proper” lived under martial law, and Israeli policy is clearly aimed at curbing any “demographic threat” that Israeli Palestinians pose to Jewish demographic supremacy. You see this in the Negev development projects, as well as in nascent proposals to abandon the pretext of any democratic order behind the Green Line if it runs up against this principle of “Jewish sovereignty.” You needn’t take my word for it: Yishai Fleisher, a right wing Israeli who runs the only English language radio program out of Jerusalem, is pretty up front about the Right wing position: Democracy is secondary to Jewish supremacy (or "sovereignty" as it is expressed in the JVL). Here he is on Shalom TV (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caDTPv0Ja8s) in 2012, articulating the right wing version of the one state solution with Rabbi Mark S. Golub. By American standards, Golub is no extremist: He is from the Reform tradition and his paternal grandparents even helped create the Reconstructionist movement, adherents of which sometimes go so far as to reject the concept of chosenness. Yet he also expresses many of the central tensions of "liberal Zionism," which is stubbornly anchored to ethnic chauvinism and Jewish supremacy in the Levant, if not elsewhere. He is no Fleischer, even if his nonchalant attitude during the interview leaves much to be desired.

3. There is no credible basis for being a Leftist, in any meaningful sense, as well as an ethnic nationalist. I would go a step further myself, and argue that there is no basis for left nationalism period, civic or ethnic. Moral cosmopolitanism is incompatible with both, and reflects the base commitment of virtually all leftists (although it sometimes manifests itself differently, as in international worker solidarity as opposed to classic ethical cosmopolitanism). From my perspective, that disqualifies Zionism as it does Palestinian nationalism. Tactical considerations aside, there's no room for any confusion on this point: If you support egalitarianism, you oppose nationalism. And you *definitely* oppose ethnic nationalism.

4. Israel is not about civic nationalism, it is about ethnic nationalism and maintenance of Jewish political dominance. True, it is an ethnoreligious group as opposed to a "purely" national group (in practice that is a pretty hazy distinction in any event). But this matters very little, because the overriding principle is maintenance of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel. And on that latter point, earlier and more secular Zionists were way more flexible and probably would have accepted an alternative location.

5. Even if I do not like "anti-Zionism" as a term, it is far more dangerous to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. In practice this is the narrative of ethnic nationalists, who insist that Israel is just asking for what every other ethnic or religious group gets: a country to call their own (although most liberal Zionists would probably not be comfortable embracing, say, Hindu nationalism as the animating principle of India and they often are quick to distinguish the States from everywhere else on Earth since it defies the ethnic model in rhetoric if not form). The attempt to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism is little more than a cynical political weapon, one that will not pay dividends in the long term. After all, if people are forced to state that they cannot agree with Zionism and are repeatedly told that this means they are anti-Semitic, a good number will just say, "fine, I'm anti-Semitic," which is not the outcome that we want (it may be the outcome that Likudniks want, since it reinforces the victim ideology and even helps stoke anti-Semitism which in turn provides a justification for militarism and in-migration to Israel, a topic that I will return to at some other time).