The PFLP and Queer Liberation

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Hey all!
So, I was at a Queers Against Israeli Apartheid event today, and . . . well, know one knew what the PFLP (or the DFLP for that matter) "line" on homosexuality/trans* people/queer liberation is (or has been).
I was hoping maybe one of you nerds could shed some light on the topic for me.

Thanks!!

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

No clue. I've often wondered that myself.

[consuming negativity]

http://i.imgur.com/Qz0xKLL.jpg?1

Well, I tried. :ohmy:

[Devrim]

Why do you even think they would have one?

Devrim

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Why do you even think they would have one?

Devrim

Well, for starters, Israel pumps a significant chunk of change into international pinkwashing campaigns, as well as targeting queer Arabs for use as informants with threats of "outing" them - it seems like putting some emphasis on queer liberation in that context would be strategic. Secondly, the PFLP has been pretty clear in emphasizing women's liberation - so, obviously, there's some attempt to grapple with patriarchy . . .

*shrug*

Are you saying they don't?

[Devrim]

I wouldn't expect them to have one, and if they did have one I wouldn't be surprised if it was pretty reactionary. I did do a very brief search for it for you (I read Arabic), but came up with nothing.

Devrim

[Sasha]

Sadly traditional anti-imp/ml groups in the region have at best a don't talk about it policy or worst say its western deviance. Like in the west the groups at the forefront of LGTB struggle in the Arab world are liberal youth and radical anarchists.

[PeoplesRepublics]

They have an email address you could send them a message pflp.english @yandex.com

[Art Vandelay]

Contacting an organization classified as a terrorist group by the Canadian government would probably be a good way of getting fastracked onto a CSIS watch list, but not sure if that's what OP is looking to accomplish. May not be the best idea.

[PeoplesRepublics]

I didn't know what country the OP was from, yeah your right if there in Canada it may not be the best idea to do that then.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Contacting an organization classified as a terrorist group by the Canadian government would probably be a good way of getting fastracked onto a CSIS watch list, but not sure if that's what OP is looking to accomplish. May not be the best idea.
I've emailed the PFLP from the US on multiple occasions. If it put me on a list, so be it, but that in itself isn't necessarily a reason not to do it.

[PeoplesRepublics]

What did you email them about?

[Rugged Collectivist]

I wouldn't be surprised if the OP is already on some sort of watch list. How much trouble could you get in for asking about their policies regarding lgbtq people?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

What did you email them about?
Mostly statements of solidarity on behalf of the organization I belonged to.

[PeoplesRepublics]

what organization is that?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

what organization is that?
The Irish Republican Socialist Committees of North America, the North American branch of the Irish Republican Socialist Party.

[PeoplesRepublics]

Interesting

[Atsumari]

http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2013/06/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Homosexuality-Report-FINAL-JUNE-4-2013.pdf
Only 4 percent of Palestinians according to this poll believe that society should accept homosexuality compared to 40 percent in Israel and 18 percent in Lebanon. From what I read about homosexuality in the Palestinian territories, the response is largely "You have been brainwashed by Israel" and other anti-Western rationalizations.

[Firebrand]

I think I remember reading somewhere that people in occupied or conflict ridden areas are more likely to cling aggressively to traditional/conservative beliefs. Something to do with the way such situations put peoples sense of national identity under threat so they cling to every tradition they can to differentiate themselves from the enemy.
(interesting example apparently when the Romans invaded Jerusalem all the Jewish men grew beards in order to differentiate themselves and not look like the invaders)

[TC]

I wouldn't presume that they have formulated a line on it at all...not every group forms lines on everything. Their priorities are likely elsewhere.

[The Feral Underclass]

I don't know whether any of you have read this, but it might be of interest to people in this thread: Eight questions Palestinian queers are tired of hearing. (http://electronicintifada.net/content/eight-questions-palestinian-queers-are-tired-hearing/12951)

[Thrasymachus]

This topic brings a hilarious point up:
Anti-Israeli queers are likely supporting the same type of Islamic oriented state that would openly and viciously persecute queers.

I am sure most queers in Palyworld territories are pretending to be straight and happily married with children, just like elsewhere in the Mahometan world. I even watched a documentary entitled Global Metal(2008) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1249171/) which interviewed many metal heads in Islamic and Arabic countries. Most said they could not even listen to heavy metal easily, much of the music is banned, they cannot have concerts(only in Turkey and one of the Gulf Countries was that possible), etc. If that is what people who are part of a capitalist off-shoot subculture face, imagine actually being gay or lesbian in a repressive state full by a majority of Mahometans who think they ought to be able to dictate precisely and rigidly what their family and neighbors ought to be able to do or not do with their lives.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Yeah god knows bourgeois states never try to force rigid social norms on their people or persecute homosexuals, just them mooslims.

[Thrasymachus]

Far as I am aware many gays and lesbians live openly in the USA as such, and I have personally meet many such people openly identifying as such. Can you actually prove that the same happens or is even possible in majority Mahometan countries without serious and dire repercussions?

During his noble prize speech, the famed French Communist writer, Albert Camus, a pied-noir(French and Christian settlers living in North Africa) was accosted by a Algerian heckler and his reply was:


I have always condemned terror. .. I believe in defending justice, but first I will defend my mother.

Source:
The Burden of Responsibility: Blum, Camus, Aron, and the French Twentieth Century. p. 131. (http://books.google.com/books?id=iHm-k5i0hUYC&pg=PA131&lpg=PA131&dq=algerian+heckler+camus+nobel+prize+speech+mothe r&source=bl&ots=0c1TXLx5Mw&sig=EEVurbdOgfAxdSvGv93Mxh-DpNM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=C73XU_yyDcifyASQwILQAg&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=algerian%20heckler%20camus%20nobel%20prize%20spe ech%20mother&f=false)


It would do good for alot of Pallywood supporters and Islamic apologists to keep that in mind. Why support people who if you were under their power, would persecute you at best or slit your throat(like is happening to non-Mahometan minorities in Syria and Iraq). Why support those who given half the chance would attack your own mother?

[Zukunftsmusik]

Mahometan

Really?

[Sasha]

This topic brings a hilarious point up:
Anti-Israeli queers are likely supporting the same type of Islamic oriented state that would openly and viciously persecute queers.

I am sure most queers in Palyworld territories are pretending to be straight and happily married with children, just like elsewhere in the Mahometan world. I even watched a documentary entitled Global Metal(2008) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1249171/) which interviewed many metal heads in Islamic and Arabic countries. Most said they could not even listen to heavy metal easily, much of the music is banned, they cannot have concerts(only in Turkey and one of the Gulf Countries was that possible), etc. If that is what people who are part of a capitalist off-shoot subculture face, imagine actually being gay or lesbian in a repressive state full by a majority of Mahometans who think they ought to be able to dictate precisely and rigidly what their family and neighbors ought to be able to do or not do with their lives.


oh hey, you know the worlds biggest islamic country by far, guess what they just did, democratically elect a die hard metalhead: http://www.metalinjection.net/around-the-interwebs/lamb-of-god-frontman-on-indonesian-president-finally-a-metal-president-to-argue-about-slayer-records-with
maybe you should take your racism/islamophobia and shove it

[Sasha]

since we are of topic anyway, a rather intresting article on israeli homophobia and racism following the murder of Abu Khdeir (the kid burned alive in retaliation by jewish extremists): http://972mag.com/after-abu-khdeir-murder-an-ugly-collision-of-homophobia-and-racism/94465/

[Thrasymachus]

maybe you should take your racism/islamophobia and shove it

Using your immature, cracker-jack level of analysis, I guess African Americans should stfu about racism and economic inequality, since a mulatto, partially black man, is President of the USA. Because surely the examples of the priveleged political elite prove/disprove what happens for the majority of society. Just because a metal-head is president of Indonesia does not mean that fans of that childish, capitalist sub-genre of music don't face difficulties for simply listening to a certain type of music there or other Islamic nations. In Islamic countries social pressure is massive and I just gave an example of a documentary I have seen with interviews of Islamic metal-heads to give a dimension of just how pervasive and over what types of issues social pressure is exercised in Islamic societies.

Similarly posting one example of what Israeli settlers allegedly did(because they have a Pallywood industry inventing fabrications) doesn't tell us about the actual acceptance of gays and lesbians in Pallywood.

Like I said, I would caution the alleged communards/socalist wannabes over here to hark the criticism and caution of the much more nuanced Camus. Why support the type of people who given half the chance would likely kill your own mother just because she is an infidel?

[bricolage]

ha! do people seriously still say mulatto?

[Lensky]

What did you email them about?

fbi spotted

[TC]

fbi spotted

No, the FBI wouldn't need to ask they'd already know.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Far as I am aware many gays and lesbians live openly in the USA as such, and I have personally meet many such people openly identifying as such. Can you actually prove that the same happens or is even possible in majority Mahometan countries without serious and dire repercussions?

During his noble prize speech, the famed French Communist writer, Albert Camus, a pied-noir(French and Christian settlers living in North Africa) was accosted by a Algerian heckler and his reply was:


It would do good for alot of Pallywood supporters and Islamic apologists to keep that in mind. Why support people who if you were under their power, would persecute you at best or slit your throat(like is happening to non-Mahometan minorities in Syria and Iraq). Why support those who given half the chance would attack your own mother?

A lot, not alot.

[Quail]

Okay, I'm going to issue a verbal warning to Thrasymachus for prejudiced language. Both "mulatto" and "Mahometan" are obsolete words which have been rejected by the people they're supposed to describe.

[Sasha]

Similarly posting one example of what Israeli settlers allegedly did(because they have a Pallywood industry inventing fabrications) doesn't tell us about the actual acceptance of gays and lesbians in Pallywood.


972mag is as much (if not far more) an Israeli publication as an Palestinian one, its kind of the whole point of the name, 972 is the shared telephone area code for israel and palestine.

question, do you actually identify as an revolutionary leftist?

[Rafiq]

Far as I am aware many gays and lesbians live openly in the USA as such, and I have personally meet many such people openly identifying as such. Can you actually prove that the same happens or is even possible in majority Mahometan countries without serious and dire repercussions?

During his noble prize speech, the famed French Communist writer, Albert Camus, a pied-noir(French and Christian settlers living in North Africa) was accosted by a Algerian heckler and his reply was:


It would do good for alot of Pallywood supporters and Islamic apologists to keep that in mind. Why support people who if you were under their power, would persecute you at best or slit your throat(like is happening to non-Mahometan minorities in Syria and Iraq). Why support those who given half the chance would attack your own mother?

Your terminology is just silly. "Mohametan"? Why the fuck is, the 17th century? "Oh those Saracens!" You make it seem like Muslim countries are the continual and logical results of Muslim history since the crusades - like there is some linear path from Saladin to Hamas. The reality is that Islam today was a result of a revival in the late 20th century that is ideologically tied to capitals degeneration. It is a modern phenomena.

[Sasha]

Really?


ha! do people seriously still say mulatto?


Your terminology is just silly. "Mohametan"? Why the fuck is, the 17th century? "Oh those Saracens!" You make it seem like Muslim countries are the continual and logical results of Muslim history since the crusades - like there is some linear path from Saladin to Hamas. The reality is that Islam today was a result of a revival in the late 20th century that is ideologically tied to capitals degeneration. It is a modern phenomena.


its quite popular under racists and islamophobes to pretend to be an intellectual/scientist by using these kind of words and give their racist bullshit a veneer of a factual basis etc, this is why they often claim to be an "Islamologis" and drone on and on about the battle for vienna and the bell curve etc etc, just have a look at blogs like "gates of vienna" if you can stomach it.
the irony is obviously that only they themselves and their echo-chamber actually fall for that shit while it conveniently exposes them for what they are for the rest of us.

[Thrasymachus]

@Quail:
I suspect you are doing that just because you don't like my views and for no other reason. There is for example alot of debate of whether mulatto is even a racist term. I even found one essay on a relevant website where a mixed person, identifies as such and I have seen others do the same:
http://www.mixedfolks.com/mulatto_essay.htm
Similarily Mahometan is just an archaism from a period where Westerners better understand that the Islamic world was a different civilization and not just a different religion.

@Sasha:
Ok, I searched more and found Israelis did indeed comitt the murder:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/07/world/middleeast/israel-palestinians-muhammad-abu-khdeir.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/mohammed-abu-khdeir-murder-three-israeli-jews-admit-kidnapping-teenager-and-burning-him-to-death-9605371.html

The difference is most Israelis are likely disgusted by the act. But if for juxtaposition an Israeli civilian is kidnapped and murdered in the Palestinian territories, great celebrations will be held over the fact that another hated infidel died.

But like I said it is stupid to support people who if given the chance would murder your own mother, just for being an infidel. The Middle East is gonna likely be almost totally cleansed of non-muslims, while Westerners are massively duped by the Palestinian and general Islamic appropriation of Western secular terms and conceptions to falsely portray their society. Which is why I use the more archaic term Mahometan from back at a time when Westerners were less easily guiled by such ruses.

[Sasha]

would attack your own mother?


who given half the chance would likely kill your own mother just because she is an infidel?



it is stupid to support people who if given the chance would murder your own mother

whats up with your weird obsession with my mother?

also, you didn't answer my question:

question, do you actually identify as an revolutionary leftist

[Thrasymachus]

... The reality is that Islam today was a result of a revival in the late 20th century that is ideologically tied to capitals degeneration. It is a modern phenomena.

Laughable views. I live in a country that has alot of Christian fundamentalists, the USA, as do you, or what passes as such. They mostly relegate themselves to trying to get creationism taught in schools and banning abortion. A few truly psychotic wackos who are very puny minority actually try to kill abortion doctors and bomb abortion clinics. That is how little influence Christianity comparatively has, that this is the type of symbolic nonsense Christian so called fundamentalists are reduced to.

Let use change venues to other parts of the world. In the Islamic world the Syrian national army almost literally collapsed in the face of an anti-government insurgency spear-headed by Islamic fundamentalist groups trying to establish a Sharia state and neo-Caliphate. In Iraq the national army even got a worse lashing by Islamic fundamentalist Sunnis support by local tribal elements and ex-Baath official and officers. Similarily in Pakistan and many other countries Islamic fundamentalists control vast swathes of the respective countries and also regularly massacre Pakisani soldiers who on paper ought to be able to defeat them handily. Look at Egypt also. And so and so on.

You cannot appropriate Western secular terms and try to compare the situation of what is termed the West to the Islamic world. I will let you know when I actually have to worry about rag-tag armed Christians picking up guns and defeating the United States National Guard or military locally(not that I support the US military), but this mental exercise lays bare the stark contrast.

@sasha:
Why do you want to distract with more off-topic nonsense? Do you identify as Wolverine, Magneto, Deadpool, Jean Grey, the Punisher, or the Juggernaut? Because it would be just as laughable as identifying as a revolutionary as I am pretty sure if I you were my neighbor and not some immature dude with simplistic political views, casting empty accusations of racism, I would know for a fact that without capitalists putting food at the supermarkets, you so called revolutionary self would be starved dead in days.

[Sasha]

Thanx for the answer, user restricted in line with board policy.

Edit; also, def deadpool, always be deadpool.

[The Feral Underclass]

Wow, Thrasymachus is an angry bird.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

So you just want to post off-topic nonsense, name call and censor. I am sure you proud of your internet life and your almost 11,000+ posts.

Posting ain't easy bro

[Thrasymachus]

So you just want to post off-topic nonsense, name call and censor. I am sure you proud of your internet life and your almost 11,000+ posts.

[Rafiq]

Laughable views. I live in a country that has alot of Christian fundamentalists, the USA, as do you, or what passes as such. They mostly relegate themselves to trying to get creationism taught in schools and banning abortion. A few truly psychotic wackos who are very puny minority actually try to kill abortion doctors and bomb abortion clinics. That is how little influence Christianity comparatively has, that this is the type of symbolic nonsense Christian so called fundamentalists are reduced to.


Actually, I can compare them perfectly. It is funny that you mention Christian fundementalism in the U.S.: Do you think this isn't new, either? The religious revival occured in the late 20th century and it encompassed the entirety of the world: With the religious revival in the United States (moral majority, etc.) as well as in the Middle East. You are attempting to make the argument that becasue of the Middle East is infinitely more unstable politically and socially than the United States, somehow Islamic fundamentalism is especially predisposed to nastiness instead of recognizing the factors that, for example, would lead the Syrian state to face near destruction. It is not as though their ideology gives them the power to do such things - violence is quite an old thing in the Middle East. Christian fundamentalists in the United States are unable to mass mobilize populations and engage in conflict against the state because the United States is a highly developed capitalist nation with a specialized and powerful state that is able to ideologically reproduce the existing conditions of life in a way that is infinitely more sufficient than, for example, the Iraqi state. There have been many instances in which religious fundamentalists in the U.S. have clashed and fought with the state, by the way.

You give Islamists the ideological credit they need in order to thrive and exist, namely that they are just as cataclysmic and historically powerful as they claim to be. The reality is that rather than the meta-humans with these other-worldly ideas they appear as, the poverty and impotence of Islamism is just as obvious as the poverty and importance of Fascism and the thousand year Reich. All of this bullshit spectacle with no social basis to support it - the reality is that the Communists and the Communists only are the real force of historical cataclysm. The Islamists must be fought against - I agree, there should be no compromise, even with their moderates in universities. But all the same it should be fought with the other horsemen of liberalism's apocalypse, Libertarians, Neo-Fascists, and technocratic liberalism.

[blake 3:17]

PFLP and DFLP are very very isolated. There's a couple of QuAIA members I'm very close with I'm sure would know. Will try to ask when I see them next.

[blake 3:17]

Saw a couple at the big demo for Gaza a couple of days ago -- anyways didn't get much of a chance to talk at all.

This is of interest: http://electronicintifada.net/content/though-small-palestines-queer-movement-has-big-vision/12607 Some interesting links in the article and at the bottom.