Thoughts on Scottish independence

[Andrew443]

As some of you may know, Scotland is voting on its independence in September. For 300 years they have been part of the United Kingdom which is composed of England Scotland wales and northern Ireland. For 800 years before 1717 Scotland had been it's own sovereign nation. So my question is do you think it should remain the United Kingdom or should Scotland become independent? Personally I think since Scotland isn't being oppressed by the UK that it should stay the same.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I think independence would be a terrible outcome for the people of Scotland and would more likely lead to the Scottish state failing and becoming dependent on the rest of the UK and/or the European Union, financially.

There is no viable way that Scottish independence can lead to better living standards and greater prosperity for Scottish people.

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

I think independence would be a terrible outcome for the people of Scotland and would more likely lead to the Scottish state failing and becoming dependent on the rest of the UK and/or the European Union, financially.

There is no viable way that Scottish independence can lead to better living standards and greater prosperity for Scottish people.

Well that just isn't true. I live in Scotland, and I've gone back and forth on this many times, but one thing that is for certain, is that as a country there is enough money. The only real issue is how it will be spent/taxed.

[Slavic]

Well that just isn't true. I live in Scotland, and I've gone back and forth on this many times, but one thing that is for certain, is that as a country there is enough money. The only real issue is how it will be spent/taxed.

Does Scotland not receive its fair share of services from its taxes?

[Brutus]

It's divide and rule as far as I'm concerned- fragment the British working-class even more.

However, the "no- better together campaign" makes me want to burn my passport, bury the ashes and rid myself of any connection with dicks like Ross Kemp rambling on about war or John Barrowman doing an offensive Scottish accent.

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

Does Scotland not receive its fair share of services from its taxes?

Scotland makes more money and is taxed more per person than the rest of the UK. More is spent in Scotland per head than England, but not proportionately to the larger tax income.

The issue is that with the proposed independence, Scotland intends to keep the pound (£ Sterling). I can't really be arsed to go through it all, but this would be problematic on account of the possibility that the Bank of England and a potential Tory government could essentially gain control of Scotland's finances. There are serious concerns about neo-liberalism with regards to this.

It's something that will have to be worked out though, I am fairly sure that there will be a YES vote.

I very much have my fingers crossed that if there is a YES vote, the EU will not allow Scotland in, and that England will deny us use of the pound. If this happens it might turn out alright, and could conceivably cause the north of England to wonder why they have to suffer at the hands of London.

There is really no way to know how it's going to turn out. Both sides are lying so much it makes my head hurt to see it on TV. I am however pretty sure that there will be a yes vote, Nigel Farage's visits and any old Etonian politicians' voices on television will see to a 10% swing to YES from the otherwise apathetic on the day.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I honestly don't know. I want to be like sure why not but then again, I can see the points made by others.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Well that just isn't true. I live in Scotland, and I've gone back and forth on this many times, but one thing that is for certain, is that as a country there is enough money. The only real issue is how it will be spent/taxed.

It's going to be run as a capitalist nation-state for the forseeable future, whether it is independent or part of the UK. Independence in such a (sad) context clearly hamstrings the country economically, diplomatically etc.

[Lord Testicles]

I think independence would be a terrible outcome for the people of Scotland and would more likely lead to the Scottish state failing and becoming dependent on the rest of the UK and/or the European Union, financially.

There is no viable way that Scottish independence can lead to better living standards and greater prosperity for Scottish people.

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/will_an_independent_scotland_be_better_off-28889


since 1980/81 Scotland has contributed £222 billion more in tax revenues than if it had just matched the per capita contributions of the UK.

If Scotland funnelled that money into health, education and job creation then I can't see how they would be worse off than under a Tory government which is systematically dismantling the public sector. Whether they do that is something else entirely though.

[QueerVanguard]

It's a reactionary step. We're internationalists, right? How does erecting even more borders are carving out more states tangibly support the *international* proletariat and help lead to a stateless future? All this is going to do is lead to more nationalist and racist bullshit out of the average Scottish Joe-schmoe. Count me against it.

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

It's a reactionary step. We're internationalists, right? How does erecting even more borders are carving out more states tangibly support the *international* proletariat and help lead to a stateless future? All this is going to do is lead to more nationalist and racist bullshit out of the average Scottish Joe-schmoe. Count me against it.

I don't know where you live, but as someone with an English accent who lives in Scotland, I can assure you that being a part of the UK puts a lot of strain on things already. At least if Independence came about, English people would stop being blamed for the way Westminster runs Scotland.

There is a long history of shit between Scotland and England (England invading all the time) that has made Scottish people a little wary of the English. If you had got the newspaper/campaign newsletter through the door this morning like I did, you would realise that this is something that needs to be resolved.

As far as I can tell, there is little to no racism against Scottish people in England. It's just not a thing anymore.

I think it would be beneficial to have the Scottish working class becoming frustrated with their own government - as opposed the government of the English. I can only really see indy improving working class solidarity between the two countries. The perception that 'the English are in control (still)' does not help.

There won't be any border control (as usual), and with regards to the number of States in the world increasing with independence - really?! That's just silly. Perhaps we should resurrect the commonwealth?

I for one know that with an English accent, I don't want to speaking loudly in supermarkets if there is a NO vote. If you think there's racism now, it would be much much worse after a NO outcome.

People here have put all their hope into this, and it's very clear that people are far more invested in this than any 'politics' in recent years. People seem to think they will have far more control over a Scottish governments decisions than the current arrangement. Maybe that happens, and public opinion will save the NHS etc... Or maybe it won't, and people will be angry that they haven't got their way when they felt that they would, and we see a rise in militancy/protests or whatever. Either way, more pressure will be exerted on the government.

Obviously it's a reactionary step, but it's the real effects on the lives of the entire British working class that I am interested in. It could concievably improve conditions in Scotland, and awareness in England. On the other hand it could go pretty badly. I plan to go along and draw a pretty picture at the voting centre, because I could never bring myself to vote either way. If you've seen the 'better together' campaign you would know that however reactionary YES may be, NO is even less tolerable with its British flag empire 'unity'.

Everything remains to be seen, it's going to to happen whether we like it or not, at the minute I'm a little more worried about the consequences of a NO vote than a YES.

[Lord Testicles]

It's a reactionary step. We're internationalists, right? How does erecting even more borders are carving out more states tangibly support the *international* proletariat and help lead to a stateless future? All this is going to do is lead to more nationalist and racist bullshit out of the average Scottish Joe-schmoe. Count me against it.

We're internationalists, right? How does supporting the continued hegemony of one of the oldest capitalists states and avoiding an opportunity to weaken it tangibly support the *international* proletariat and help lead to a stateless future? All this is going to do is lead to more nationalist and racist bullshit out of the average Scottish Joe-schmoe.

[M-L-C-F]

I'm all for Scottish independence and Scottish republicanism. Much like I'm for English and Welsh republicanism, and independence for Wales. A unified Irish republic would be nice too, and preferably socialist republics for all of them. Cooperation between the republics would be preferable as well. As equals, instead of England ruling it all.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I support Scottish independence, the one thing that unites ultra-leftists and English right-wingers in opposition.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/will_an_independent_scotland_be_better_off-28889



If Scotland funnelled that money into health, education and job creation then I can't see how they would be worse off than under a Tory government which is systematically dismantling the public sector. Whether they do that is something else entirely though.

I'm not disagreeing that Scotland (along with Wales and NI) have historically gotten a very raw deal out of being part of the UK, but if they leave the UK then they will lose so much financially through currency issues, loss of trade with EU states and companies.

[RATMfan1992]

The proposals that have been put forward by the SNP is not independence. They want to keep the queen as head of state, remain in NATO, apply for EU membership, and finally use the pound sterling in a currency union which would mean our monetary/fiscal policy would be controlled by a foreign bank.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I think independence would be a terrible outcome for the people of Scotland and would more likely lead to the Scottish state failing and becoming dependent on the rest of the UK and/or the European Union, financially.

There is no viable way that Scottish independence can lead to better living standards and greater prosperity for Scottish people.

Are you a Labour Party politician by any chance? Scottish independence is the best option for working people all across Britain, as it will decentralize power away from what remains of the Westminster, colonial bourgeoisie that has raped and pillaged the planet for centuries. I can't go into it now as I don't have the time but I'm absolutely shocked at some of comments here on Revleft. Try living in a scheme in Drongan or Glasgow and tell people how breaking away from the union would be a "terrible outcome". That's like saying that untying a noose around your neck would help lead to the terrible outcome of you being able to breathe. WTF Revleft...

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I'm not disagreeing that Scotland (along with Wales and NI) have historically gotten a very raw deal out of being part of the UK, but if they leave the UK then they will lose so much financially through currency issues, loss of trade with EU states and companies.

where'd you hear that? pro-union BBC by any chance?

[Creative Destruction]

i think i heard Scotland would integrate into the Scandinavian union, rather than stick with the UK. was there any truth to that?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

^ its far more likely, yes. the UK is dead, even in terms of international capitalism. no real colonial reach, no productive economy (apart from scotland, hence why they want to keep them and their taxes), no mandate in europe. even historically speaking, scotland is closer to scandanavia than it is to england (and england is what we're talking about breaking away from, not the "UK", which was the creation of the colonialists). aside from this, the majority of people in scotland are working class socialists and would never accept or, at the least, vote for the kind of austerity, neoliberal, thatcherite bollocks that has been opposed on them by westminster. those who reject scottish independence are telling scottish people that they should remain at the mercy of the westminster bourgeoisie.

[Orange Juche]

with dicks like Ross Kemp rambling on about war or John Barrowman doing an offensive Scottish accent.

But he actually has a Scottish accent, he spoke that way naturally all the time until he was like 9, and then faked an American one to not be made fun of in school in America. He's never stopped using that accent with family or people he knows in Scotland, and can slip into it without thinking about it when he's around Scottish people he doesn't know. He seems like a really nice guy.

So many people on here are so pissed off all the time.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

John Barrowman doing an offensive Scottish accent.
Barrowman's Scottish accent is authentic, it's his American one that isn't.

[RATMfan1992]

i think i heard Scotland would integrate into the Scandinavian union, rather than stick with the UK. was there any truth to that?

Scotland would separate from the UK and become a newly independent state.


^ its far more likely, yes. the UK is dead, even in terms of international capitalism. no real colonial reach, no productive economy (apart from scotland, hence why they want to keep them and their taxes), no mandate in europe. even historically speaking, scotland is closer to scandanavia than it is to england (and england is what we're talking about breaking away from, not the "UK", which was the creation of the colonialists). aside from this, the majority of people in scotland are working class socialists and would never accept or, at the least, vote for the kind of austerity, neoliberal, thatcherite bollocks that has been opposed on them by westminster. those who reject scottish independence are telling scottish people that they should remain at the mercy of the westminster bourgeoisie.

keeping the queen as head of state, applying for EU & NATO membership, pound sterling in a currency union resulting in a foreign bank controlling our fiscal/monetary policy. These are the policies the scottish people are being asked to vote for. The working class of this country has no hope unless we get out of the EU.

[Orange Juche]

Barrowman's Scottish accent is authentic, it's his American one that isn't.

He considers himself "bi-dialectical" because he naturally speaks in a Scottish accent (having been raised Scottish in a Scottish family) but became so familiar forcing himself to do the American accent that, living in America, that's how he generally naturally talks if he's not around other Scots. It's apparently like a thing he doesn't think about, he just is in whichever one.

But yeah, Scottish is his native accent, he self-taught the American accent.

[Red Economist]

Honestly, As someone living in England, I think the biggest issue over Scottish Independence is what happens to the rest of the UK; if Scotland leaves the UK, that's a lot of Labour MP's. It has 59 MP's in the UK Parliament, 41 are currently Labour.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27129813

The Tories will have bigger majorities and more power, so UK politics will go further right- even without UKIP causing any problems in 2015.

To be honest, we could try a federal system- where England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own assemblies with equal powers and still have a single UK parliament. But this hasn't really come up as UK politicians don't like setting up clear constitutional structures when they could keep the void of an unwritten, anarchic constitution.

[Devrim]

I support Scottish independence, the one thing that unites ultra-leftists and English right-wingers in opposition.

I don't know what you mean by 'ultra-left' here, but I'd assume that I would be amongst it. Just to clarify, left communists do not take a position in support of the union, nor do they take a position in support of Scottish independence. Our position is that neither staying with or leaving the UK offers any real gains for the working class in Scotland, or England for that matter.

It is true that one left communist who posts on this site did take up a position against independence, but he was widely mocked* and has since recanted on this heresy. :)

The people who are supporting the union in this referendum are not the 'ultra-left'.

Devrim

*well as widely as you can be in tiny left communist circles, it means that myself, android, and freecommunist laughed at him in the pub

[Orange Juche]

From what I've seen as far as polling (as an American), it's consistently looked like the referendum is going to turn out with things staying as they are - so am I wrong in assuming it's very highly unlikely that Scotland will gain independence?

[Red Economist]

From what I've seen as far as polling (as an American), it's consistently looked like the referendum is going to turn out with things staying as they are - so am I wrong in assuming it's very highly unlikely that Scotland will gain independence?This is the same impression I'm getting through the media in England (so not reliable). But there isn't a wave of hope and optimism about this, it's sound like it's really lukewarm. So in my opinion, if they do go independent it will by a slim majority unless;

i) the media is really, really, inaccuarate
ii) the Tories do something so stupid and insulting that there is a last minute 'f**k you' moment and the scots decide they've had enough of English rule. the Tories are so incompetent these days that it is possible.

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

From what I've seen as far as polling (as an American), it's consistently looked like the referendum is going to turn out with things staying as they are - so am I wrong in assuming it's very highly unlikely that Scotland will gain independence?

The polls tend to be between 40-45% YES. However that number is always rising, and there was an incident where the UK government allegedly stopped a poll being released (paid for by taxpayers) because it showed a surge in popularity for YES (http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/independence-poll-blocked-by-westminster-1-3409249).

It will be very close. I predict that the otherwise apathetic will turn out and vote YES. Also the English politicians will have to be very careful on TV - as they could very easily goad thousands at a time into voting YES. I'm deadly serious about that as well. If Cameron is at all prominent on Scottish TV in the days before the referendum, there is only one way it will turn out.

[Црвена]

Independence could be economically disastrous for Scotland if the UK don't let them keep the pound, but I think politically it'll be better off without the English right wing holding it back. It's England that will lose out without Scottish social democratic voters - the right will monopolise Parliament even more. Unfortunately for England, I think Scotland will gain independence. There seems to be stronger nationalism and anti-Tory sentiment there lately. Although it is bad for the UK to lose a large proportion of its centre-left (as this'll strengthen the right, not because I have any intention of supporting reformist left parties) I'm inclined to support a lesser degree of centralism as a strong advocate of decentralised systems, so I'm personally kind of neutral on this issue.

Also, I think the UK have a lot more important things to worry about than some petty nationalism-fest, which was really the breeding grounds for the Scottish independence movement. Namely the complete social wreckage caused by the coalition government.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

Does it matter either way? Will there be a significant impact on people's standards of living?

[Orange Juche]

Does it matter either way? Will there be a significant impact on people's standards of living?

Seems like in Scotland it might. "Significant" is subjective, but an impact that's notable, from what I can gather. And the other way around for the rest of the UK.

On a different note, I saw apparently Noam Chomsky supports the Scottish Independence movement?

[RATMfan1992]

SNP want to cut corporation tax by 3% which is going to increase inequality not decrease it!!! independence would just create two capitalist states in the British isles.

[Proteus2]

I'm socialist to the core and I'm voting yes. I was previously not going to bother but as the months have rolled past and i have been so utterly disgusted by the better together campaign that it has made me realise what is on offer here. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to be rid of Tory control from our lives for decades if not forever. To keep out the private bandits from the NHS, keep free education and tell the bastards to stick their criminal nuclear weapons up their fucking millionaire arses. Not to mention the coming assault on labour laws.

A few years ago I probably wouldn't have bothered voting but I know that if its a no vote the sadistic toffs with a pathological hatred of the working class are coming for Scotland to teach it a lesson. Its too risky now to abstain we must take our chance and run for our lives and start again. 70% of the cuts in Scotland are waiting for a no vote to be implemented.

I don't think people in the rest of the UK understand exactly the depth of feeling in Scotland. Something is happening, people are mad with anger and it seems like its changed things already. People are desperate for hope and the yes campaign is winning people over. It is going to be very close in the end. If it is a yes vote the whole political landscape everywhere in the UK is going to change dramatically as well as here. If it is a no vote then mark my words, the Tories will give the Scots a kicking that Thatcher could only dream of doing. If i can vote in a referendum to give my family, friends, fellow workers and community some wee bit of protection from this misery I'm doing it. I'd be mad not to.

[John Nada]

"THEY MAY TAKE SCOTLAND"S POUNDS, BUT THEY'LL NEVER TAKE THEIR FREEDOM! " :-> Fuck it, let Scotland become independent. At worse they'll basically still be part of the UK. Even so, at least they might not have their proletariat fight and fund the UK's imperialist wars, a la Iraq. Which happened under the "lesser evil" Labour Party that might lose out in this. What does this mean for Northern Ireland and Wales?

[Blake's Baby]

I support Scottish independence, the one thing that unites ultra-leftists and English right-wingers in opposition.

Unlike getting Scotland out of the UK, which unites the romantic left-nationalists with really reactionary little-Englander scumbags who would gladly see the back of Scotland.


...

It is true that one left communist who posts on this site did take up a position against independence, but he was widely mocked* and has since recanted on this heresy. :)

*well as widely as you can be in tiny left communist circles, it means that myself, android, and freecommunist laughed at him in the pub

My reasons for doing so were based on organisational considerations, particularly how it might make it more difficult to organise in two countries rather than one, but my very supportive comrades assured me (from their wider experience of working in divided countries) that really it wasn't an issue and I didn't have to worry about it.

And, just to correct Devrim on one point, it was before we got to the pub. Unless they laughed at me later and I didn't notice.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I'll say it again: live in one of the poor housing schemes on the outskirts of Glasgow or in Ayrshire and see how much you want to vote No then (which amounts to voting for Westminster and all of its politicians/policies)! See how united the working class are when you live in one of those schemes.

[Q]

So, the dust has settled and 55% went with no (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29270441).

This is a fair margin, but hardly definitive. I suspect this will be the spark of a refit of how the island is governed.

Further thoughts?

[Art Vandelay]

Surprised to see a 55% no vote quite honestly, thought it would be closer than that. I feel that the most progressive elements of the class voted yes, but didn't really have a position one way or the other and am somewhat dubious of the claim that the Scots represent an oppressed nationality in this day and age. Having said that, I support a nations right to self determination and would have supported a yes vote if that had been the case.

[Red Son]

Expected this kind of margin; the benefits were not clear beyond some sense of national pride, sticking it the the Tories and Alex Salmond's desire to be a head of state, I thought it would be more like 60/40 to the Nos.
Never been a fan of nationalism of any kind (Englsh, Welsh or Scottish), the British working class of every constituent country have more in common than we are taught to believe, so splitting into several pieces will only further these divisions and will do nothing to further the Internationalist cause of socialism.

[John Nada]

Expected this kind of margin; the benefits were not clear beyond some sense of national pride, sticking it the the Tories and Alex Salmond's desire to be a head of state, I thought it would be more like 60/40 to the Nos.Removing the Trident missiles and weakening the British state on the eve of an imperialist war would've been nice. But what I want doesn't matter, only what the people of Scotland want.
Never been a fan of nationalism of any kind (Englsh, Welsh or Scottish), the British working class of every constituent country have more in common than we are taught to believe, so splitting into several pieces will only further these divisions and will do nothing to further the Internationalist cause of socialism.But what about British nationalism? That's nationalism too, just like the others.

The problem I have with the "don't make new borders to divide us" argument is that, unqualified, could mean that any removal of bourgeois borders is progressive, and that somehow the modern bourgeois states' unity is sacred. That logic would lead to something as absurd as claiming that if the US invaded and annexed Mexico, it would "unite the proletariat". Or that Vietnam's and Algeria's liberation divided the French proletariat.

The right to self-determination isn't a duty to separation. It means that nations have a right to stay, join or make any country they want on their own terms. Sham unity doesn't encourage unity of the proletariat any more than sham division. I think true internationalism acknowledges what the proletariat on the ground wants, not the desires of bourgeois states of today.

Of course, praxis is still in play. For example, Marx and Engels supported the independence of Ireland and Poland as progressive. However, they were opposed to Yugoslav liberation due to it's connections to pan-slavism and the Tsar at the time.

It seems the majority of voters want Scotland to stay in the UK. It should be respected as much as a vote for independence.

However, I don't think the "Better Together" campaign's threats of crashing an independent Scotland's economy really promotes unity with the English. That would be out of fear, not solidarity. It'd be interesting to know the class makeup of the yes and no votes.

[Theta Sigma]

My major concern was the effect independence would've had on the Scottish working class. Scotland may be sustainable financially but it would be a new, vulnerable state. Salmond was already working with neoliberals. What if shock therapy had been applied and Thatcherism took over? The SNP wasn't against TTIP, so I doubt they could've truly protected the NHS, either.

The thing missing entirely from the debates leading up to the referendum was an analysis of neoliberal capitalism. But of course, that's not going to be analysed, is it? What would this truly have fixed? I remained torn until the very end, understanding the benefits and drawbacks of both sides, and baulking at the delusional nature of some from both campaigns.

[GoddamVegetarianCommie]

My personal thoughts on this matter is that if Scotland had become independent, the Labour party would've got screwed because most of their support is in Scotland. This could result in more of the left-wing Labour vote transferring to the slightly more radical Trade Unions and Socialists Coalition in my area, or it could lead to 2333424532 years of Tory and Lib Dem rule.

[Per Levy]

My personal thoughts on this matter is that if Scotland had become independent, the Labour party would've got screwed because most of their support is in Scotland. This could result in more of the left-wing Labour vote transferring to the slightly more radical Trade Unions and Socialists Coalition in my area, or it could lead to 2333424532 years of Tory and Lib Dem rule.

why should communists and anarchists should cared if the labour party "got screwed"? they are a bourgeois party and not even a lesser evil(a excuse so many leftists use to still support bourgeois partys).

also you sound like a social-dem who thinks if just enough "radicals" get into labour it will magically transform to something leftish. it wont.

[x-punk]

I think that many just voted yes to get some kind of change. In my lifetime I have seen the areas around where I live go from vibrant, sociable places into rundown areas with high unemployment and social problems. If you look at somewhere like the western part of Fife it has been decimated with the down turn in heavy industry and its never got back on its feet.

And what do we have to look forward to with Westminster, really just more of the same were led to believe. More austerity, continued decline in living standards, increasing poverty and crime.

So I think for many voting 'yes' had nothing to do with nationalism or wanting to close the borders. It was really just a desperate roll of the dice to enact some / any change.

From my observations the way people were voting had little to do with nationalism at all, more to do with self interest. People in comfy, well paid jobs and older people who own their own house and have a nice pension leaning towards 'no'. People in lower paying jobs and the unemployed supporting 'yes'. I also sensed a hint of snobbery with some people as there was a distinct feeling that some people saw it as a 'lower class' thing to vote 'yes'. So I would imagine many just voted 'no' because they wanted to keep up with the Joneses and look posh. These are just my observations but many I have spoken to agree with this.

[John Nada]

why should communists and anarchists should cared if the labour party got "screwed"? they are a bourgeois party and not even a lesser evil(a excuse so many leftists use to still support bourgeois partys).

also you sound like a social-dem who thinks if just enough "radicals" get into labour it will magically transform to something leftish. it wont.I'm not sure if that's what GoddamVegetarianCommie was saying. It seems like they were saying that Labour losing out would be a good thing for TUSC, but could also go towards the slightly worse Tories/Lib dems.

[A.J.]

In years to come it will be said that the most significant thing about the referendum wasn't so much the result but the fact that the political consciousness of the masses awoke from it's slumber.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

And they decided the keep one set of masters vs. another? That doesn't really make sense

[Zukunftsmusik]

In years to come it will be said that the most significant thing about the referendum wasn't so much the result but the fact that the political consciousness of the masses awoke from it's slumber.

Yeah... but the key question is, I think, what kind if consciousness.

[RevoTO]

I support Scottish independence, the one thing that unites ultra-leftists and English right-wingers in opposition.

I support Scottish independence, the one thing that unites Scottish youth and Scottish bankers.

[GoddamVegetarianCommie]

I never said I support Labour, and I never said I thought they would be better if enough radicals joined them. In fact, I said pretty much the opposite, that if Labour was significantly weaker support would transfer from them to more radical parties.