'Borotba' aligns fully with Fascism and Russia, abandons vestige of claimed ideology

[Hrafn]

Yupp.

http://www.borotba.org/manifesto_of_the_peoples_front.html


Manifesto of the People’s Front for the Liberation of Ukraine, Novorossiya and Transcarpathian Rus

What is the aim of our struggle?

The building, on the territory of Ukraine, of a just, socially-oriented people’s republic without oligarchs or a corrupt bureaucracy.

Who are our enemies?

The liberal-fascist ruling elites – the criminal alliance of oligarchs, bureaucrats, military and security forces and straight-out criminals who serve the interests of foreign states. While officially declaring their support for European liberal values, these forces keep the country under their control, relying on bands of ultra-rightists, unleashing chauvinist hysteria and poisoning ethnic groups against one another.

Who are our allies?

All those people of goodwill, irrespective of their citizenship and ethnicity, who recognise the ideals of social justice and who are ready to fight for them, while refusing to accept the liberal-fascist state on the territory of Ukraine.

What is the socially-oriented people’s republic for which we are fighting?

The socially-oriented people’s republic is the political form of organisation of a society in which:

* the interests of the people and of their rounded development – spiritual, intellectual, social and physical – represent the highest goals and tasks of the state;
* all power lies with the people and is exercised by them through elected organs of direct representation;
* every worker-citizen has the right to medical care, education, pension provisions and social security at the expense of the state;
*liveable pensions are paid, and all citizens enjoy guarantees of adequate social security in case of loss of employment or temporary or permanent disability;
* any private or collective initiative is permitted provided it benefits the people and their development;
* usurious financial capitalism, that lives on loan interest, is prohibited. Money must be earned not through any kind of debt bondage, but through the realisation of successful projects;
* the state, acting in the name of the people and controlled by the people’s representatives, is the largest holder of capital and controls the strategic sectors of the economy;
* private property is permitted, but society places controls on large fortunes and on their investment in the economy and politics. No-one is allowed to parasitically exploit the people, to establish oligarchic empires or to dominate people through creating artificial monopolies.

What are our methods of struggle?

To achieve the above goal (the creation on the territory of Ukraine of a socially-oriented people’s republic), we are prepared to use forcible and non-forcible methods of struggle. We consider that citizens have the right to rise in revolt, and that only armed people are capable of defending their freedom. Violence, however, is a means for attaining political goals that we resort to only when it is forced upon us.

What is occurring on the territory of Ukraine?

On the territory of Ukraine, a popular liberation uprising is under way against a liberal-fascist regime that seeks, through terror and propaganda, to impose a criminal oligarchic and comprador capitalism in our country.

What is Ukraine?

Ukraine is the territory between the European Union and Russia, with strong Christian traditions (primarily Orthodox), with a population made up of various peoples (Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusians, Moldavians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians, Poles, Jews, Armenians, Greeks, Tatars, Rusins, Guzuls and others), and with traditions, forged over many centuries, of popular self-government and of engaging in political struggle for its freedom.

What is happening in south-eastern Ukraine (Novorossiya)?

In the south-east (Novorossiya), a popular political uprising is under way against the liberal-fascist regime installed in Kiev using the money and with the support of Western bosses. Members of all the ethnic groups of the region are taking part in this revolt – Ukrainians, Russians, Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Hungarians, Romanians and so forth.

Is there a war in the region between Russians and Ukrainians?

This is not a war between Russians and Ukrainians, as stated by the Kiev propaganda. It is an uprising by oppressed people against their common enemy – criminal oligarchic capitalism.

Russians and Ukrainians, along with people of other nationalities, are fighting on both sides.

On the side of the Kiev regime, mercenaries and punitive fighters who have been deceived by the propaganda are waging war for the interests of large oligarchic capital and for the criminal bureaucracy, while on the side of the south-east (Novorossiya) the militia members defend the interests of the people and their free, just and democratic future.

Do Russians and Ukrainians have different stakes in the events occurring in Ukraine?

Russians and Ukrainians are united by common social and political interests – in the liberation of Ukraine from the power of oligarchic capital, of a corrupt bureaucracy, of criminal forces of coercion, and simply of crime.

Why is the uprising in the south-east (Novorossiya) taking place under Russian slogans?

Because Russians and Russian-speakers in Ukraine have experienced a dual oppression – socio-economic (along with the Ukrainian-speaking population), and also cultural-political.

Socio-economic oppression – taking the form of corruption, tyranny, the power of criminals, the impossibility of conducting normal business or leading a normal life, paltry wages, and dependency on the people who own the country – represents the norm for every working inhabitant of Ukraine.

The denial of official status to the Russian language in regions where more than 90 per cent of the population speak and think in Russian (roughly half of Ukraine’s territory), together with bans on teaching in Russian in the schools; bans on advertisements and films in Russian; bans on the use of Russian in the courts and administration, and many other absurd segregationist demands and prohibitions amounts to additional humiliation of Ukraine’s Russian-speaking population.

Because of this, it was Russians and Russian-speakers who were the first to rise in revolt.

Now it is the turn of all the oppressed people of Ukraine!

Why is Russia helping south-eastern Ukraine (Novorossiya)?

A significant section of Russia’s elite is afraid of popular social and political protest. These people would be delighted to strike an agreement with the Kiev authorities and to end the war in the south-east (Novorossiya). But the fury of the popular uprising against oligarchic-bureaucratic liberal-fascist capitalism does not allow them to do this. The peoples of Russia support the just struggle of south-eastern Ukraine (Novorossiya), and this forces the entire Russian elite, in many ways contrary to its strategic interests, to support or pretend to support the revolt in south-eastern Ukraine.

Why do the US and the European Union help the Kiev regime?

The main goal of the US is to wage a struggle against Russia as a geopolitical rival. The US needs either to create an anti-Russian state on the territory of Ukraine, with NATO bases on Russia’s borders, or else to destabilise the region and see the country sunk in chaos.

The European Union needs additional markets for its products, and sources of cheap raw materials.

What aids the struggle of south-eastern Ukraine (Novorossiya)?

The resistance, whose strongpoint is south-eastern Ukraine (Novorossiya), is supported and strengthened by the unswerving desire of the peoples of Ukraine to free themselves from liberal-fascist domination and from the ruling elites. Also aiding it is the gradual recognition by the peoples of Ukraine of their common socio-political interests and of the shared goals of their struggle.

Does the struggle in the south-east (Novorossiya) amount to separatism?

No, the territory of the struggle is the entire territory of Ukraine. The insurgents in the south-east (Novorossiya) extend their hands to their brothers and sisters in all regions of Ukraine with the call: “Stand up against our common enemy!”

We shall establish a new, free, socially responsible people’s power on the whole territory of Ukraine and Novorossiya.

What will follow the victory of the people’s-liberation revolution and the collapse of the liberal-fascist regime?

A new state will be formed, in which power will belong to the people not in word but in reality.

Through holding a referendum (the highest form of popular power), the population of each province will itself determine the future of its region – whether it will remain within a single federative (confederative) state, or will receive full independence.

How will political power be constructed after the victory of the people’s democratic revolution?

Political power will be constructed in line with the principle of direct popular representation (people’s power) – from the bottom upward.

Organs of people’s power will be formed, beginning at the level of local Councils and extending upward to a Supreme Council, according to the principle of representation of delegates from territories, of delegates from labour collectives and from professional bodies and councils, and of delegates from political, religious and community organisations.

The basis of people’s democracy will be local councils. They will delegate representatives to regional councils.

The highest organ of popular representation, the Supreme Council, will consist of delegates from the regional councils.

The Supreme Council will choose the government, which will be responsible to the people as represented by the members of the Council.

We call for judges and the heads of local law enforcement organs to be chosen through elections.

What rights will the regions have after the victory of the people’s liberation revolution?

Each region will have the right to draw up its own Constitution or other founding document, guaranteeing basic political, economic, social, cultural and religious rights to the people living on its territory.

In addition to the overall state languages, each region will have the right to choose regional languages to be used in cultural, political, juridical or administrative matters.

Each region will have the right to draw up its own budget on the basis of taxes imposed on the activity of physical and juridical persons active on its territory.

What obligations will the regions have after the victory of the people’s liberation revolution?

Each region will be obliged to set aside part of its tax revenues for a general anti-crisis fund to be used in case of natural disasters and other catastrophes.

Each region will be obliged to contribute part of its tax revenues to meet the general needs of the state – for defence, for the maintaining of the central state apparatus, for the construction of objects of overall national importance, for scientific research, for maintaining health care and education, and for the development of infrastructure.

Each region will be obliged to observe the general state principles applying to the relations between labour and capital, and to civil and political freedoms.

Each region will be obliged to maintain law and order and to defend the rights and freedoms of citizens within the framework of established state principles.

These are the basic principles and goals of our struggle.

We believe that every honest citizen and patriot will approve and support them.

We count on the international solidarity and support of all those people who hold dear, not just in word but also in deed, the ideals of equality, democracy and social justice.

Together we shall win!

Approved by the Yalta resistance conference, 7 July 2014

[Tim Cornelis]

Where's the fascism? Sounds like populist social-democracy, a hint of third positionism, but ultimately not fascist.

The people at socialist-ancient-greek-battle-formation must be happy with this development I guess.

[Rurkel]

Yeah, the self-proclaimed republics of Donetsk and Lugansk aren't exactly 100% fascist... if we start pedantically counting various fascism indicators they'll probably come slightly behind Kiev. Not that "coming slightly behind Kiev" isn't a concern.

The Borotba document itself is definitely see-no-evil-hear-no-evil when it comes to their own side.

However, the left in Western Ukraine and in USA/Europe should fight against the so-called "anti-terrorist operation" of Kiev and against Western support for the Ukrainian government - without positively portraying the leadership of the rebellion or rosy sloganeering about "the people's struggle" or some such going on there.

[Hrafn]

Borotba are, through this front of theirs, cooperating directly with the leadership of "New Russia", which is equally Fascist as Svoboda and the Right Sector.

If they had done the same with the pro-Western side, nobody would disagree with me on collaboration. Being unacceptable. Brotoba is an enemy of the working class.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I don't think people are necessarily disagreeing about how their politics might manifest themselves in reality, but the text itself doesn't express much that is explicitly fascist. In fact it seems to be written specifically to allow them to deny claims of fascism directed at them, and that alone makes it all read like a long empty slogan. Which most manifestos are I guess

[exeexe]

What will follow the victory of the people’s-liberation revolution and the collapse of the liberal-fascist regime?

A new state will be formed, in which power will belong to the people not in word but in reality.So they are antifascist. Not a dream society, but at least they are not fascist. (this of course holds until proven otherwise)

[Tim Cornelis]

The People's Republic of Donetsk is a ultranationalist-dominated political institution, and therefore Borotba supporting this people's republic would mean they did align themselves with ultranationalism. Their ideology is not fascist, I'd say.

Liberal-fascism is a bullshit term.

[exeexe]

I think they are not nationalist but patriots. It seems like they try to form a society much like USA but this time the financial bankers will be constrained perhaps made unlawful.

[Tim Cornelis]

Why do you make the positive differentiation between nationalists and patriots? (And isn't the definition of patriot basically a nationalist in action?). Kinda odd for an anarchist. Borotba wants some kind of populist, nationalistic social-democracy. I wouldn't say like the USA at all.

[Tim Cornelis]

This is the type of persons that leads the People's Republic of Donetsk:


An ultranationalist and reactionary, Mr. Strelkov fits an increasingly familiar profile in Russia, one that has emerged strongly with the re-election of President Vladimir V. Putin. Messianic and militaristic, such figures combine a deep belief in Russia’s historic destiny with a contempt for the “decadent” West, while yearning for the re-establishment of a czarist empire.
...
his ideological rigidity precedes any connections he has to Russia’s security services, stretching back at least to his days at the Moscow State Institute for History and Archives. There, Mr. Strelkov obsessed over military history and joined a small but vocal group of students who advocated a return to monarchism.

A fascist.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/11/world/europe/russian-seizes-authority-over-ukraine-rebels.html

[exeexe]

Nationalism and patriotism is two ends at a spectrum. Just like socialism and capitalism.

Patrie is like where you feel home. Where you know every road by name and know all forests in and out
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/patrie

So patriotism is like where you have local culture, local habits and local traditions. But in nationalism you take no respect for local traditions. You make everyone love the national hymne and the national flag and have national laws and so fourth and to most people there was no logical explanations behind it when nationalism was forced down on people.

One recent example i can think of here, is that we have national traffic laws, then one day some police officers wanted to check the traffic on one of our small islands. And here they found people driving way beyond what the law would allow. But of course those traffic laws didnt made much sense on this island because the amount of traffic was so low, so people just made their own customs. Of course police are too dumb to understand any of this so they just gave people tickets left and right and said they would come back to check if things had improved.


George Orwell wrote that nationalism was one of the worst enemies of peace. He defined nationalism as the feeling that your way of life, country, or ethnic group were superior to others. These types of feelings lead a group to attempt to impose their morality on any given situation. When those standards were not met, more often then not, war would result.
In contrast he stated that patriotism was the feeling of admiration for a way of life etc. and the willingness to defend it against attack. The obvious difference between the two is that while patriotism is a passive attitude, nationalism is aggressive by nature.

http://blogcritics.org/nationalism-vs-patriotism/

[Slavic]

Nationalism and patriotism is two ends at a spectrum. Just like socialism and capitalism.

Patrie is like where you feel home. Where you know every road by name and know all forests in and out
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/patrie

So patriotism is like where you have local culture, local habits and local traditions. But in nationalism you take no respect for local traditions. You make everyone love the national hymne and the national flag and have national laws and so fourth and to most people there was no logical explanations behind it when nationalism was forced down on people.

One recent example i can think of here, is that we have national traffic laws, then one day some police officers wanted to check the traffic on one of our small islands. And here they found people driving way beyond what the law would allow. But of course those traffic laws didnt made much sense on this island because the amount of traffic was so low, so people just made their own customs. Of course police are too dumb to understand any of this so they just gave people tickets left and right and said they would come back to check if things had improved.


http://blogcritics.org/nationalism-vs-patriotism/


If your using Wikipedia man,

Patriot
"A person who loves (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/love) and zealously supports (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/support) and defends (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/defend) their country (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/country)"

Nationalism
"The idea of supporting one's country and culture."

They are essentially the same, but just used in different context.

[Hrafn]

This is the type of persons that leads the People's Republic of Donetsk:



A fascist.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/11/world/europe/russian-seizes-authority-over-ukraine-rebels.html

The four men who formed the "Federal State of New Russia", which is the Novorossiya that Borotba are supporting so much in their text, are a Neo-Nazi, an extreme right journalist, and two National Bolsheviks. I've written quite a lot on the Neo-Nazi before.

[Hrafn]

I should probably add that Borotba are engaging in some pretty nasty religious discrimination here, in the same vein as "New Russia" (if less extreme).

[Dagoth Ur]

Meh. Still better than the out-and-out fascists in Kiev.

[Slavic]

Meh. Still better than the out-and-out fascists in Kiev.


Sooooo true because a Nationalist boot stomping on your face is infinitely more preferable than a Fascist boot stomping on your face.

[Dagoth Ur]

Because all sides are the same evil fascists and only a third position will...

[Slavic]

Because all sides are the same evil fascists and only a third position will...

Yes, yes in fact they are. This does not mean I think some great workers movement will come striding out to save the day.

Its a shitty war between shitty people that is causing horror for all.

[Tim Cornelis]

The fascists in the People's Republic of Donetsk have more dominant positions of power there. They dominate the political scene, whereas the fascists in Kiev are a minority. I don't see why that makes it "still better", unless you factor in that you are a WWP-supporter and rally behind any anti-US and anti-Western political pile of shit.

[exeexe]

If your using Wikipedia man,

Patriot
"A person who loves (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/love) and zealously supports (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/support) and defends (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/defend) their country (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/country)"

Nationalism
"The idea of supporting one's country and culture."

They are essentially the same, but just used in different context.
This can merely be summed up to the classic outcome of a conflict:
History is written by the victors - as churchill once said

Nationalism won the dispute between local autonomy vs nationalism many years ago in different European countries. This didnt happen in USA, so maybe for you Americans this is completely new to you.

Of course nationalist wants people to forget the real meaning of patriotism so they have deliberately painted a picture of patriotism to be almost the same as nationalism. But nothing could be more far away from the truth.

Here is an interesting quote, and yes i know what Emma Goldman said about patriotism, but i guess she was an American too:


Anarchism & Patriotism - a Proposition


There's a difference between patriotism and nationalism. To be a patriot is to love this land and this people, honor and pride of where you live. To be a nationalist is to unquestionably love your government, the flag, and the system by which you abide. While nationalism and patriotism cross borders on the political right wing, there are yet many who are anti-government, anti-corporate, and anti-nationalist.
...
There is a schism between the off-left and the off-right... The polar opposite of an anarchist is a fascist. But not a patriot. Anarchists are patriots. Fascists are nationalists.
...
here's why I'm here. I want to foster unity for insurrection. Kinda plain out there. I love Washington. It's my home. The biggest challenge we all face, regardless of political stance, is the destruction of it by the federal government. Next to that, the huge corporations that rather than putting prosperity in our communities, export them to foreign aggressors - and at the same time, destroying the local efforts that actually enrich us from the roots up. I am anti-capitalist, but I'm not a socialist. My problem with socialism is that to do it, you need a MASSIVE government. One so massive, it has absolute power. If you question a socialist government, you're signing your death warrant.
...
then I suppose I'm a communist too... but throw out the red scare and McCarthyism and I can talk about how the Earth has never seen communism... Russia, China, etc. are dictatorships and oligarchies. Communism is an economy, not a government. I believe in direct democracy - which was one of the original options discussed in the formation of the US in 1775. In the end, they felt that statesmen were better prepared to make decisions, and while that may have had a ring of truth then, we're capable of making our own decisions without funneling them through obscure people we never meet. If we can pick between pepperoni and supremeo pizza toppings, we can also pick how to live our lives!
Things are incredibly bad now. Anarchists have a deep root in insurrection, and we're active in it almost constantly. We definitely have our problems, but of them the two largest are our insecurity to be the first one to throw a molotov or fire a gun, and the second is that the liberal yuppies infiltrate regularly enough that distractions are caused and then we have periods of inactivity. Every once and a while we have an awesome riot. Mayday in Seattle was a fine example. We smashed the windows out of the federal courthouse, in addition to the windows of banks and corporations that regularly exploit workers or customers. Let it be clear that property destruction is a sign of weakened government, a mark of poor business, and an example that power belongs to WE THE PEOPLE.
Anarchists and patriots are the only two ideologies that are both rooted in independence, freedom, and insurrection. Patriots know that no change is had without righteous rebellion and at times, even bloodshed. This was the reason why today we do not speak with British accents. Anarchists know that chaos and tyranny are both horrible, and nothing except for seizing the freedoms that were stolen from us and eliminating this corrupted republic (we're not a democracy, we have representatives) will secure that freedom. Remember, anarchy is not a government, and it's not a will for chaos. It goes towards direct and decentralized democracy (like perhaps states without representatives would be pretty cool!) and that the media has painted anarchists in the scene with riots and looting and mayhem, but there is nothing further from the truth.
Without unity though, we're going to be all talk and no bite. There is currently a federal grand jury going on in Seattle. One of the reasons why we haven't heard of anarchists recently is because the danger and secrecy, in addition to sensationalism of the grand jury has had a chilling effect on activism ever since July-ish. At the same time, the government is ramping up their surveillance and control to quell resistance or any talk of freedom and rebellion. They are monitoring you now as much as us. In fact, they have classified most militia groups AND anarchists as DOMESTIC TERRORISTS.
Some poster at Washington State Militia in 2012 - but i guess people were too afraid to make any online replies.

http://washingtonstatemilitia.ning.com/forum/topics/anarchism-patriotism-a-proposition

I posted this to show some similarities between patriotism and anarchism and not to incite an insurrection.

[Hrafn]

The fascists in the People's Republic of Donetsk have more dominant positions of power there. They dominate the political scene, whereas the fascists in Kiev are a minority. I don't see why that makes it "still better", unless you factor in that you are a WWP-supporter and rally behind any anti-US and anti-Western political pile of shit.

Exactly. The People's Republics are run by Neo-Nazis, National Bolsheviks, far-right Orthodox fundamentalists, anti-Semites, Russian supremacists, and other nice people. The government in Kiev has a minority participation of Neo-Nazis, and a far-right presence among paramilitaries. Not that that makes Kiev any better, but still - Donetsk (or Moscow, if you will) is not a preferable option.

[Dagoth Ur]

The fascists in the People's Republic of Donetsk have more dominant positions of power there. They dominate the political scene, whereas the fascists in Kiev are a minority. I don't see why that makes it "still better", unless you factor in that you are a WWP-supporter and rally behind any anti-US and anti-Western political pile of shit.
Yeah it's so much better being a shill for western imperialism and the actual fascists in Kiev.

[Tim Cornelis]

Yeah it's so much better being a shill for western imperialism and the actual fascists in Kiev.

"Actual fascists". The PRD is dominated by actual fascists. Igor Girkin, a prominent leader and 'minister of defence', is a fascist, because he advocates palingenetic ultranationalism: staging a national rebirth on the basis of a romanticised golden age period (in his case, the Russian empire) and wanting a modern reincarnation of such an empire. Borodai is likewise a far-right ultranationalist. And Gubarev, another far-rightist.

But yeah I guess they don't count as "real fascists" because, as WWP-er, you need to rally behind everything anti-US.

[Hrafn]

Yeah it's so much better being a shill for western imperialism and the actual fascists in Kiev.

Let me know if any of these guys strike you as actual Fascists.

http://maidantranslations.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/10014643_527586280691470_557791870_n.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/aikCE39.jpg

http://openrevolt16.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/dughin1.jpg

[Dagoth Ur]

Fascism is a tactic of class war, it is not uniforms, runes, and "scary" guys. Kiev are the actual fascists because of what their aims are. WW2 pretty much proved that reactionaries can be as useful in the fight against fascism as anyone.

[Hrafn]

Fascism is a tactic of class war, it is not uniforms, runes, and "scary" guys. Kiev are the actual fascists because of what their aims are. WW2 pretty much proved that reactionaries can be as useful in the fight against fascism as anyone.

All of the peopel pictured above are ideological Fascists. Your desire to dismiss them as benevolent reactionaries is amusing. Where, exactly, is the aims of of the West Ukrainian Fascists different from those of the East Ukrainian Fascists?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

So the pro-separatist counter arguments have degenerated into them plugging their ears and stomping their feet pretty much. Super convincing analysis from my dear friends in the wwp as always.

[Dagoth Ur]

Real in-depth analysis there. At least I don't sound like a parrot of CNN/BBC.


All of the peopel pictured above are ideological Fascists. Your desire to dismiss them as benevolent reactionaries is amusing. Where, exactly, is the aims of of the West Ukrainian Fascists different from those of the East Ukrainian Fascists?
1. Fascism is not an ideology. I don't care how much those knuckle-draggers prance around building metaphysical castles in the sky, they are a tool alone. Actual fascists are the ones furthering the goals of the international bourgeoisie, through non-liberal means. Simply not being a liberal isn't enough to be a fascist.
2. When the fuck did I say benevolent? Just being on the right side of history doesn't make you a saint or even someone who doesn't deserve extermination.
3. The Kiev rats aim to make Ukraine into an avenue for increased western imperial exploitation of Eastern Europe. Something Russia has been standing in the way of for a long time (of course for their own imperial ambitions).

Anyone who takes my argument here to mean that I support Russia is just flat out dumb. And in fact if they gave a shit about stopping imperialism or fascism they would have crushed the Kiev junta months ago. Don't come at me with "strelkov did blank" or "oh no Cossacks!" because I don't care about the forms of the sides here (as none of them are even vaguely radical), I care about the fact that one side winning means Western Imperialism is stronger. And really even if Russia "won" in Ukraine their imperial power would probably even diminish as this event has fucked over a lot of Russia's goodwill.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

The only people I've seen parroting lines from state sponsored media have been from your camp. Either side winning is a victory for imperialism and reactionary politics. Fuck, the fact that people in Ukraine have only been faced with a choice between two competing camps of fascism is an imperialist victory in itself. The possibility for a progressive outcome disappeared back in January if not earlier. The militarization of the conflict has replaced authentic social conflict with that of mercenaries and bandits, the fact that you support either side says an awful lot about you and your politics.

[helot]

I don't care how much those knuckle-draggers prance around building metaphysical castles in the sky, they are a tool alone. Actual fascists are the ones furthering the goals of the international bourgeoisie, through non-liberal means. Simply not being a liberal isn't enough to be a fascist. .


Lol at metaphysical castles in the sky. I like that phrase.

Do you see the guy kneeling at the front, third from the left in the pic Hrafn posted? That's Pavel Gubarev






http://maidantranslations.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/10014643_527586280691470_557791870_n.jpg

[Tim Cornelis]

1. Fascism is not an ideology. I don't care how much those knuckle-draggers prance around building metaphysical castles in the sky, they are a tool alone. Actual fascists are the ones furthering the goals of the international bourgeoisie, through non-liberal means. Simply not being a liberal isn't enough to be a fascist.

Fascism is an ideology. And like all ideologies, they are a veil, but it's an ideology nonetheless. The core of generic fascism is palingenetic ultranationalism, which the DPR-leadership upholds.



3. The Kiev rats aim to make Ukraine into an avenue for increased western imperial exploitation of Eastern Europe. Something Russia has been standing in the way of for a long time (of course for their own imperial ambitions).

Only the West is and can be imperialist, of course. Screw analysis of capital, let's adopt a warped anti-Americanism as core belief.


Anyone who takes my argument here to mean that I support Russia is just flat out dumb. And in fact if they gave a shit about stopping imperialism or fascism they would have crushed the Kiev junta months ago. Don't come at me with "strelkov did blank" or "oh no Cossacks!" because I don't care about the forms of the sides here (as none of them are even vaguely radical), I care about the fact that one side winning means Western Imperialism is stronger. And really even if Russia "won" in Ukraine their imperial power would probably even diminish as this event has fucked over a lot of Russia's goodwill.

Of course you don't care, since not only are you an apologist for Russian imperialism, but also an apologist for fascism. This kind of shitty politics is of course to be expected of WWP-ers. WWP-ers are the US equivalent of anti-germans: substituting guilt and hate over and for the geopolitical position of the USA for class politics. This leads to absurdities, by championing fascists and Russian imperialism as long as it makes Washington unhappy.

[Hrafn]

I think Tim has put forward all I have to say at the moment more eloquently than I would've.

[adipocere]

Only the West is and can be imperialist, of course. Screw analysis of capital, let's adopt a warped anti-Americanism as core belief.

Or reduce everything to 0 - all sides being equal argument - in order to support warped russophobia (or possibly a disturbing level of western patriotism), which is all that is going on in this bizarrely titled thread. It's essentially the same thing Patrice O'neal is doing with the Israel/Palestine in order to cover his pro-Israel tracks (not comparing the conflicts, comparing the argument tactic) I won't accuse anyone here of being pro-Kiev, even if I feel like I'm seeing defacto support for it, but I will cry hypocrite and run.

[Dagoth Ur]

Fascism is an ideology. And like all ideologies, they are a veil, but it's an ideology nonetheless. The core of generic fascism is palingenetic ultranationalism, which the DPR-leadership upholds.
Fascists have an "ideology" like pop music stars have "talent". A whole lot of pomp but zero substance. Have you ever read fascist "ideological" works? They're either just downright dumb, confusingly obscurantist, or lord of the rings with racism/nationalism.


Only the West is and can be imperialist, of course. Screw analysis of capital, let's adopt a warped anti-Americanism as core belief.
That's a cool strawman. I don't know why you think you could apply it to me considering I directly referenced Russian imperialism like two posts back. It's just a pathetic, and more importantly regional, form that is much less pernicious than western, anglo-german dominated, imperialism. Which is currently killing people all over the world. No matter how much you dislike Russia they do not have their fingers dipped in nearly as much blood globally (well for now anyways).


Of course you don't care, since not only are you an apologist for Russian imperialism,
pfft hahahahahahaha


but also an apologist for fascism.
And I thought the apologism for Russian imperialism angle was hilarious enough.

Your best friend Trotsky advocated collaboration with fascists against imperialism and I'm the apologist for fascism? Cool.


This kind of shitty politics is of course to be expected of WWP-ers. WWP-ers are the US equivalent of anti-germans: substituting guilt and hate over and for the geopolitical position of the USA for class politics. This leads to absurdities, by championing fascists and Russian imperialism as long as it makes Washington unhappy.
Again let's ignore any content of my argument and instead go for an attack on an organization that I sympathize with. Classy. Also anti-germans are pro-zionist so not really very consistent anti-imperialists are they? In fact the actual positions of anti-germans are closer to Trot positions than my own.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

(1) Tim's not "best friends" with Trotsky, and I think it's misconstruing Trotsky's point (as well as taking him out of his historical context).

(2) Russian Imperialism is global, but overall is less effective and muscular than that of the US and EU powers. This is not out of a lack of interest but capability. Rooting for Russia as an alternative to US Imperialism today is like rooting for the US as an alternative to British Imperialism 140 years ago - you're not opposing Imperialism, you're just asking for a redrawing of Imperial spheres of influence.

(3) Centralized, nationalistic, authoritarian Capitalism, whether we call it "actual fascism" or whatever, is terrible for marginalized groups and there is ample historical evidence for this. This is just as true of the folks running Donetsk (who hate homosexuals and Jews) as much as the Right Front (who are not actually "running" Ukraine, though they have a lot of power)

[Tim Cornelis]

It's Right Sector. And the PRD thing that they wanted Jews to register was fake. If you have any evidence of other anti-semitism, could you post it?

[Invader Zim]

1. Fascism is not an ideology.

Actually, it is. It also is an umbrella term for several sub-ideologies, i.e. Nazism. Indeed, your suggestions to the contrary suggest a deep and genuinely terrifying ignorance.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

It's Right Sector. And the PRD thing that they wanted Jews to register was fake. If you have any evidence of other anti-semitism, could you post it?

I'm aware of the fact that the "Jews must register" thing was a fake, but I heard stories about some of the Donetsk fighters talking about how, basically "Jews like Trotsky" were responsible for placing their territory in the Ukraine. Perhaps that's not representative of their politics as a whole movement, but the anti-homosexual stuff is clearly a part of their rhetoric. I also saw some virulent anti-immigration sentiments as justifications for their opposition to European "liberalism"

[Tim Cornelis]

Or reduce everything to 0 - all sides being equal argument - in order to support warped russophobia (or possibly a disturbing level of western patriotism), which is all that is going on in this bizarrely titled thread. It's essentially the same thing Patrice O'neal is doing with the Israel/Palestine in order to cover his pro-Israel tracks (not comparing the conflicts, comparing the argument tactic) I won't accuse anyone here of being pro-Kiev, even if I feel like I'm seeing defacto support for it, but I will cry hypocrite and run.

Ha, opposing Russian imperialism is Russophobic. Not really. On the other hand, denouncing opposition to Russian imperialism as Russophobic is kinda apologetic toward Russian imperialism.

Have you two considered giving up communism? You're bad at it.

@Dragoth Ur

Your denial of obvious fascism as fascist is apologetic for fascism. Your support of Russian imperialism over US imperialism is, perhaps more supportive than, apologetic for Russian imperialism. You can say "yeah, but it's better imperialism since it kills less", that doesn't mean you do not support it. As for Trotsky, that's a red herring if I ever heard one. Also, how can you collaborate with a tactic?

"not really very consistent anti-imperialists are they?"
Exactly and exactly like the WWP and PSL: support any capitalism or imperialism as long as it is anti-US. It's exactly like the US equivalent of anti-germanism.

You are ignorant of what imperialism is; of what fascism is; of what socialism is; of what the DOTP is. I ask again, have you considered giving up communism? You're bad at it.

[Dagoth Ur]

(1) Tim's not "best friends" with Trotsky, and I think it's misconstruing Trotsky's point (as well as taking him out of his historical context).
Could have surprised me. Also:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/09/liberation.htm


(2) Russian Imperialism is global, but overall is less effective and muscular than that of the US and EU powers. This is not out of a lack of interest but capability. Rooting for Russia as an alternative to US Imperialism today is like rooting for the US as an alternative to British Imperialism 140 years ago - you're not opposing Imperialism, you're just asking for a redrawing of Imperial spheres of influence.
How am I rooting for Russia? Because all I've ever done here is rooted AGAINST Western imperialism. If I've been pro-russian it should be easy for you to directly quote me being so.

I do however welcome the increased rivalry between imperialists. The more they harm each other the more chances we have to find the chinks in their armor.


(3) Centralized, nationalistic, authoritarian Capitalism, whether we call it "actual fascism" or whatever, is terrible for marginalized groups and there is ample historical evidence for this. This is just as true of the folks running Donetsk (who hate homosexuals and Jews) as much as the Right Front (who are not actually "running" Ukraine, though they have a lot of power)

Commander of the National Defence and Security Council: Andriy Parubiy, co-founder of the fascist Social National Party, which later changed its name to Svoboda

Second-in-Command of the National Defence and Security Council: Dmytro Yarosh, Right Sector

Minister of Defence: Ihor Tenyukh, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda party .

Vice Prime Minister: Oleksandr Sych, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda.

Prosecutor-General: Oleg Makhnitsky, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda.

Svoboda also holds the ministries of ecology and, especially critical in the Ukraine, agriculture in the new government.

So much for the weak fascists in Kiev.

Also again I'm being pigeon-holed into a position where I have somehow implicitly supported the actions, makeup, or rhetoric of the donbass fighters. They're just fighting on the right side of history, this doesn't make them positive figures or someone to be emulated/followed. And they are reactionaries, I've said this many times over, it's just they're the only side in this conflict fighting imperialism (even if they're doing it in as stupid a way as possible, but for fuck's sake they're reactionaries).


Actually, it is. It also is an umbrella term for several sub-ideologies, i.e. Nazism. Indeed, your suggestions to the contrary suggest a deep and genuinely terrifying ignorance.
Pray tell what is so important about nazi ideology? What does it inform you of that their actions don't? In what sense did they actually follow their ideology?

The problem here is you fundamentally don't know what fascism is. It's not mean guys with swastikas and runes, or idiots with old empire fetishes, it is:
the most reactionary segments of society being empowered by the liberal bourgeoisie to tackle a serious threat to their dominance over the means of production, a problem that they themselves are incapable of solving.

What's funny is this is Trotsky's definition.


Your denial of obvious fascism as fascist is apologetic for fascism.
Or rather its a commitment to actually understanding fascism rather than just branding everyone you don't personally like with it. To be honest your whole line of argument here is a simple attack on myself with no regards to my argument itself.


Your support of Russian imperialism over US imperialism
FALSE. Until you can provide relevant quotation.


is, perhaps more supportive than, apologetic for Russian imperialism.
FALSE again.


You can say "yeah, but it's better imperialism since it kills less",
Yeah because I don't say that nor do I believe that. It is simply a lesser threat to the majority of the world's workers. This does not mean it ceased to be a threat itself.


that doesn't mean you do not support it.
Except that I don't.


As for Trotsky, that's a red herring if I ever heard one. Also, how can you collaborate with a tactic?
I posted the interview by Trotsky at the beginning of this post so how about you read it.


Exactly and exactly like the WWP and PSL: support any capitalism or imperialism as long as it is anti-US. It's exactly like the US equivalent of anti-germanism.
You know just saying something over and over doesn't magically make it true all the sudden.


You are ignorant of what imperialism is; of what fascism is; of what socialism is; of what the DOTP is. I ask again, have you considered giving up communism? You're bad at it.
Cool story bro, have you ever heard of this thing called discussion? It's where you address people's arguments instead of childishly insulting them personally. It's a pretty cool deal.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Some of this is just stupid, but there are a couple of interesting points:

http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/roger-annis/2014/07/mother-russia-stereotypes-outdated-ukraine-war-heats


Russian colleagues here in Moscow say the government was expecting that the popular resistance in southeast Ukraine would have been vanquished by now. That would suit its acute interest in preserving relations with capitalist Europe. But defeat of the rebellion is beginning to look unlikely, which will open a whole new stage of the anti-austerity (http://www.rogerannis.com/economist-and-author-michael-hudson-imf-is-pushing-ukraine-to-voluntary-suicide/) and pro-democracy struggle in southeast Ukraine, including the appeal it symbolizes for people in other parts of Ukraine and Russia.
...
Russia's cautious reactions to the war being waged by Kyiv disproves the claims by governments and some left wing voices in Europe and North America that Russia has territorial ambitions in eastern Ukraine or is deliberately provoking chaos and destabilization. It is NATO and the regime in Kyiv that is sowing chaos and destabilization, not to speak of perpetrating or abetting war crimes. The regime is refusing any talks with the pro-autonomy political forces in Ukraine's southeast and it is raining artillery shells and rockets upon the population in an effort to terrorize it into submission.

[Geiseric]

OP has no idea what fascism is and should refrain from using buzzwords. The only fascists in ukraine are in the west and jn Kiev. DPR is a secular, multi national organization region which has nothing to do with the goals of international capital.

[Tim Cornelis]

OP has no idea what fascism is and should refrain from using buzzwords. The only fascists in ukraine are in the west and jn Kiev. DPR is a secular, multi national organization region which has nothing to do with the goals of international capital.

This is almost laughable. He doesn't use it as buzzword at all. Fascism, as ideology, is palingenetic ultranationalism, staging a national rebirth based on a romanticised golden age period in the national history. So we see Turkish fascists inspired by the Ottoman Empire; Dutch fascists by the Dutch empire; Italian fascists by the Roman Empire; Scandinavian fascists by Vikings; Mongolian fascists by the Mongolian Empire, and Russian fascists by the USSR (National Bolsheviks) or the Russian Empire.

Russian fascists want an authoritarian state through which to stage this national rebirth and restore Russia into the Empire it once was.

"Palingenetic -- from the Greek palin (again or anew) + genesis (creation or birth) --refers to a myth or vision of collective rebirth after a period of crisis or decline.
Populist, in Griffin's usage, means a form of politics that draws its claims of legitimacy from "the people" (as opposed, for example, to a monarchical dynasty or divine appointment) and uses mass mobilization to win power and transform society.
Ultra-nationalism treats the nation as a higher, organic unity to which all other loyalites must be subordinated. Ultra-nationalism rejects "anything compatible with liberal institutions or with the tradition of Enlightenment humanism which underpins them."[39]"

"The focus on palingenetic myth also clarifies fascism's apparent contradiction between forward- and backward-looking tendencies. As Griffin notes, although some forms of fascism invoke the glories of an earlier age, they do so as inspiration for creating a "new order," not restoring an old one. Fascism "thus represents an alternative modernism rather than a rejection of it."[44]

The concept of palingenetic myth sheds light not only on fascism, but also a number of related political currents. For example, the Ku Klux Klan was formed in the late 1860s around a vision of restoring the white supremacist South after its near destruction in the Civil War and Reconstruction. Since the 1860s, white supremacists have repeatedly invoked this vision of rebirth to help them interpret and address other crises in the U.S. racial order. That helps to explain why the Klan, unlike many other racist institutions, has been revived again and again -- and how the Klan helped to prepare the ground for fascist ideas imported from Europe."

http://comminfo.rutgers.edu/~lyonsm/TwoWays.html

Now, this Igor Girking bloke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin ), for instance, clearly advocates palingentic ultranationalism: a man with monarchist sympathies, inspired by the former Russian Empire, and wanting to restore the Russian Empire. Other leaders also are extreme right ultranationalists.

Is the DPR secular?

"The self-declared People’s Republic, which controls this Ukrainian city and much of the surrounding region, proclaims Orthodoxy to be its official religion. Having turned on journalists, trade unionists and anyone who favours a united Ukraine, the People’s Republic has found a new target in the form of priests who do not share its religion. When prayers were being said around a tent in central Donetsk on May 23, however, Fr Kosyak found himself confronted by 15 rebels.

The 60 worshippers were forcibly dispersed, leaving Fr Kosyak alone."

http://www.nationalheadlines.co.uk/beaten-and-threatened-the-donetsk-peoples-republic-turns-on-citys-priests-2/362342/#ixzz38ak3ZdzT

PS

I just noticed that WWP-idiot has the DPR as location, and I think it's fair that this signifies sympathies for this state with rather obvious fascist leanings (which is a conservative way of putting it). What a clueless idiot (redundant for a WWP-er).

[Hrafn]

I am using Fascism very accurately. I am always the first out to point out that, say, the Republicans, or Hamas, aren't Fascists. The East Ukraine rebels? Definitely are. I've already posted excessively on the number of Fascists involved in the separatist project. I don't see any point in elaborating.

In addition to the stuff Tim posted on the DPR's secularity, this is the situation for the Federal State of New Russia. "All spiritual and religious education will belong to the Russian Orthodox Church. The state allows for freedom of religion except in cases it deems would "destroy the fabric of society and social harmony"." Sound secular to you?

[Tim Cornelis]

It's also interesting to post some Stormfront opinions on this:


The leaders of New Russia are against jewish oligarchs,
EU,NATO,America.They are Russian nationalists,Russian Orthodox
Christians,owners of small and medium-sized businesses,anti-semites,
Cossacks.If they win the civil war in Eastern Ukraine it will be the victory
for all honest European patriots.


By what I've seen so far, the Ukrainians were tricked into attacking every other European ethnic group in the region by you know who. Since then, Communists and Nationalists joined forces in the South region and established two countries(Donetsk and Lugansk). These two just merged into a single country with Orthodox Christianity as the state religion with many people from the Nationalist community as leaders.

It's unfortunate, but these people could bring more to the table than the EU backed Maidan ever did. If they can maintain independence and get the entirety of the southern region, they can stabilize the region. If successful, this can be the start of a Nationalist block in Eastern Europe with a Union of Bulgarians, Moldovan, Ukrainians, and Russians and expand from there. I'm trying to be optimistic here.


Interestingly enough many people on here voted against this country and support the Jews. I thought they would be smarter than that. lol

But as long as they are anti-Western, the WWP useful idiots of Russian, Chinese, and other imperialisms will continue to support them.

[Geiseric]

"Actual fascists". The PRD is dominated by actual fascists. Igor Girkin, a prominent leader and 'minister of defence', is a fascist, because he advocates palingenetic ultranationalism: staging a national rebirth on the basis of a romanticised golden age period (in his case, the Russian empire) and wanting a modern reincarnation of such an empire. Borodai is likewise a far-right ultranationalist. And Gubarev, another far-rightist.

But yeah I guess they don't count as "real fascists" because, as WWP-er, you need to rally behind everything anti-US.

Youre dillusional about the supposed priorities of the DPR. It is a multi racial organization, first of all, and it doesnt support ANY nationalist movement. It formed to fight the worms put in power by the EU such as the chocolate king, who are directly funded by the US. Screaming fascist at people you dont agree with isnt proper. In fact their goals arent even supported by the russian state. Your point is tantamount to calling FATAH fascist.

Also there are non orthodox members of the donetsk rebels so the claims of "radical orthodox christianity" strikes me as classical western xenophobia spurred by pro kiev propaganda organs. Religeon isnt the issue, fascism isnt the issue, imperialism which is supported by "leftist" epigones is the issue.

[Geiseric]

It's also interesting to post some Stormfront opinions on this:







But as long as they are anti-Western, the WWP useful idiots of Russian, Chinese, and other imperialisms will continue to support them.

> implying the internet is always right
> implying storm idiots are right about anything, ever

[Tim Cornelis]

Youre dillusional about the supposed priorities of the DPR. It is a multi racial organization (1), first of all, and it doesnt support ANY nationalist movement (2). It formed to fight the worms put in power by the EU such as the chocolate king (3), who are directly funded by the US. Screaming fascist at people you dont agree with isnt proper (4). In fact their goals arent even supported by the russian state (5). Your point is tantamount to calling FATAH fascist.(6)

Also there are non orthodox members of the donetsk rebels so the claims of "radical orthodox christianity" strikes me as classical western xenophobia spurred by pro kiev propaganda organs. (7)Religeon isnt the issue, fascism isnt the issue, imperialism which is supported by "leftist" epigones is the issue.

(1) Fascism is not inherently racist. Extreme racism was a component of Nazism, but not of generic fascism. The Brazilian Integralism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Integralism), which is uncontroversially fascist, advocated a "Union of all races and all peoples".
(2) Except the ones mentioned repeatedly here and in other threads. The leading party which brings extreme right ultranationalists of all kinds of backgrounds togethe, which founded, and forms, the leadership of the Federal State of New Russia, the New Russian Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Russia_Party), which according to the party leader "will be led only by those people who in this difficult time showed themselves as true patriots of their Motherland and proved themselves as true fighters and defenders of their Fatherland," party leader Gubarev said." The state is lead by an explicitly nationalist party, yet you manage to claim that it doesn't support "ANY nationalist movement".
(3) Wishful thinking
(4) I don't, and I have justified my use of fascism in this context without you challenging it directly. I'm always the first person to call others out on their bullshit. Look up any thread on fascism and you'll see me denouncing all those that abuse the word fascism.
(5) I don't see how this is relevant. Their goals go far beyond what Putin wants, indeed. Otherwise they couldn't even be fascists.
(6) No, because Fatah isn't a palingenetic ultranationalist movement.
(7) Ridiculous. One of the founders of the New Russian party (and member of the fascist Eurasia Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia_Party)), which is the founder of the New Russian state, explicitly said Orthodoxy will be the official religion. So by their own admission it's true.

In conclusion, the founders of the New Russian party and state is an orgy of extreme right ultranationalists.


The first congress was attended by pro-Russian separatist officials of the Donetsk People's Republic, Donbass Militia. Notable figures belonging to anti-semitic Russian-nationalist extremist groups were involved,[6] including: Donetsk Republic leader Pavel Gubarev, neo-Nazi/fascist/Stalinist [i.e. National Bolshevik] writer Alexander Prokhanov,[6] fascist political scientist and Eurasia Party leader Aleksandr Dugin, and Valery Korovin.[2][7] Both Prokhanov and Korovin are members of the Izborsky Club (ru), which advocate a "Eurasian Empire" to "save the peoples of Russia from degeneration and outside attack" [note: palingenetic ultranationalism, the core of generic fascism].[8] The congress announced the creation of a new self-declared confederate state called 'New Russia'. The state would, according to Dugin, have its capital city in Donetsk, Russian Orthodox Christianity as the state religion, and would nationalize major industries.[9] According to Gubarev the state would also include (the major cities currently not under control of separatists) Kharkiv, Kherson, Dnipropetrovsk, Mykolaiv and Zaporizhia.[10][11]

Anyone that denies the heavy handed fascist leanings of the New Russian state is deluding themselves. And that WWP idiot that pollutes this forum with her/his shite politics of exclusively anti-Americanism which results in supporting fascism and imperialism whenever its brunt is directed at the US, is the useful idiot of these fascists and imperialists.

[Hrafn]

The following statement was made by Alexander Borodai, Russian ultra-nationalist and anti-Semite, who is the (by other separatists) recognized Prime Minister of the Donetsk People's Republic:


The borders of the Russian World extend significantly farther than the borders of the Russian Federation. I fulfil a historic mission in the name of Russian nation, super-ethnos, unified by the Orthodox Christianity. Just as in Caucasus, I'm fighting in Ukraine against separatism – this time not Chechen, but Ukrainian one. Because there is Russia, Great Russia, Russian Empire. And now Ukrainian separatists in Kiev are fighting against Russian Empire.

Sounds very non-nationalist and secular, yes?

[Rurkel]

Originally posted by Tim Cornelis
(3) Wishful thinkingOh, they do fight the chocolate oligarch in question, as well as the Ukrainian army and its paramilitary battalions (recruited largely among Ukrainian far-right/fascist organizations) all right. That's the only accurate claim Geiseric made.

The self-proclaimed republics' own fascism is also limited by them currently being on the defensive, which makes them more restricted in the actions they can take. Shelling of Eastern Ukrainian territory by Kiev (there had been civilian victims of it, in tens so far, afaik) also makes the broad populace of these republics view them as, at least, the lesser evil (Kievan government is being widely hated there, though Girkin-Strelkov, one of the rebels' military leaders, complained about not enough people signing up to fight). That is one more reason to organize against Kiev's military offence - it legitimizes the rebel leadership.


I just noticed that WWP-idiot has the DPR as location, This poster had it long before things in Ukraine got really sucky. "DPR of the Heart" is likely a reference to the DPRK.

[Tim Cornelis]

Oh, they do fight the chocolate oligarch in question, as well as the Ukrainian army and its paramilitary battalions (recruited largely among Ukrainian far-right/fascist organizations) all right. That's the only accurate claim Geiseric made.


Hmm yeah. Not sure why I thought it was wishful thinking when I posted that. Maybe I misinterpreted as fighting the EU and oligarchy, which would kinda romanticise their fight. But you're right.

[Dagoth Ur]

Way to ignore my last post Tim. Classy.


This is almost laughable. He doesn't use it as buzzword at all. Fascism, as ideology, is palingenetic ultranationalism, staging a national rebirth based on a romanticised golden age period in the national history. So we see Turkish fascists inspired by the Ottoman Empire; Dutch fascists by the Dutch empire; Italian fascists by the Roman Empire; Scandinavian fascists by Vikings; Mongolian fascists by the Mongolian Empire, and Russian fascists by the USSR (National Bolsheviks) or the Russian Empire.

Russian fascists want an authoritarian state through which to stage this national rebirth and restore Russia into the Empire it once was.

"Palingenetic -- from the Greek palin (again or anew) + genesis (creation or birth) --refers to a myth or vision of collective rebirth after a period of crisis or decline.
Populist, in Griffin's usage, means a form of politics that draws its claims of legitimacy from "the people" (as opposed, for example, to a monarchical dynasty or divine appointment) and uses mass mobilization to win power and transform society.
Ultra-nationalism treats the nation as a higher, organic unity to which all other loyalites must be subordinated. Ultra-nationalism rejects "anything compatible with liberal institutions or with the tradition of Enlightenment humanism which underpins them."[39]"

"The focus on palingenetic myth also clarifies fascism's apparent contradiction between forward- and backward-looking tendencies. As Griffin notes, although some forms of fascism invoke the glories of an earlier age, they do so as inspiration for creating a "new order," not restoring an old one. Fascism "thus represents an alternative modernism rather than a rejection of it."[44]
So you're posting fascist musings to connect reactionaries together? Is that your aim? You might as well post that stupid 14 points of fascism list.


The concept of palingenetic myth sheds light not only on fascism, but also a number of related political currents. For example, the Ku Klux Klan was formed in the late 1860s around a vision of restoring the white supremacist South after its near destruction in the Civil War and Reconstruction. Since the 1860s, white supremacists have repeatedly invoked this vision of rebirth to help them interpret and address other crises in the U.S. racial order. That helps to explain why the Klan, unlike many other racist institutions, has been revived again and again -- and how the Klan helped to prepare the ground for fascist ideas imported from Europe."
This is some stupid idealistic bullshit right here.


I just noticed that WWP-idiot has the DPR as location, and I think it's fair that this signifies sympathies for this state with rather obvious fascist leanings (which is a conservative way of putting it). What a clueless idiot (redundant for a WWP-er).
GUYS THE ONLY DPR EVER IS THE ONE RIGHT NOW IN UKRAINE LOL THIS GUY IS IDIOT!!XDLOL Well since you clearly don't know there were these things called Democratic People's Republics, they existed throughout the eastern bloc and some asian communist states used the DPR prefix as well (as in the DPRK and DRA). The joke here, as I feel I need to explain since you clearly don't understand even basic things, is that I'm from the Democratic People's Republic of the Heart. But thank you all the same for trying to score some cheap insult points.


I am using Fascism very accurately. I am always the first out to point out that, say, the Republicans, or Hamas, aren't Fascists. The East Ukraine rebels? Definitely are. I've already posted excessively on the number of Fascists involved in the separatist project. I don't see any point in elaborating.
Hamas isn't fascist but the DPR guys are? That's pretty ridiculous and I say this as a pro-any-palestinian-resistence type girl. I agree that Hamas isn't fascist but they are just as, if not more so, reactionary than Donbass. The same thing is in play though that even though they are reactionary they play a progressive role.


But as long as they are anti-Western, the WWP useful idiots of Russian, Chinese, and other imperialisms will continue to support them.
Again you just keep repeating this without proof but don't let me stop you or anything.


(1) Fascism is not inherently racist. Extreme racism was a component of Nazism, but not of generic fascism. The Brazilian Integralism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Integralism), which is uncontroversially fascist, advocated a "Union of all races and all peoples".
(2) Except the ones mentioned repeatedly here and in other threads. The leading party which brings extreme right ultranationalists of all kinds of backgrounds togethe, which founded, and forms, the leadership of the Federal State of New Russia, the New Russian Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Russia_Party), which according to the party leader "will be led only by those people who in this difficult time showed themselves as true patriots of their Motherland and proved themselves as true fighters and defenders of their Fatherland," party leader Gubarev said." The state is lead by an explicitly nationalist party, yet you manage to claim that it doesn't support "ANY nationalist movement".
(3) Wishful thinking
(4) I don't, and I have justified my use of fascism in this context without you challenging it directly. I'm always the first person to call others out on their bullshit. Look up any thread on fascism and you'll see me denouncing all those that abuse the word fascism.
(5) I don't see how this is relevant. Their goals go far beyond what Putin wants, indeed. Otherwise they couldn't even be fascists.
(6) No, because Fatah isn't a palingenetic ultranationalist movement.
(7) Ridiculous. One of the founders of the New Russian party (and member of the fascist Eurasia Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia_Party)), which is the founder of the New Russian state, explicitly said Orthodoxy will be the official religion. So by their own admission it's true.

In conclusion, the founders of the New Russian party and state is an orgy of extreme right ultranationalists.
All this bullshit and you still don't know what fascism means. Y'know that last post I made, the one you didn't read/didn't respond to? If you had you'd have seen what the actual Marxist definition of fascism is. And fascists don't know shit about fascism because they're fucking metaphysical morons.


Anyone that denies the heavy handed fascist leanings of the New Russian state is deluding themselves.
Heavy handed? Certainly. Fascist? Absolutely not. Russia is neo-liberal.


And that WWP idiot that pollutes this forum with her/his shite politics of exclusively anti-Americanism which results in supporting fascism and imperialism whenever its brunt is directed at the US, is the useful idiot of these fascists and imperialists.
Again you keep saying this without proof. Please quote me supporting fascism even once, please quote me supporting russia even once, please.

[Hrafn]

Dagoth, New Russia not Russia is referenced. Nothing about New Russia is neo-Liberal.

[Dagoth Ur]

Yes in fact it is the only player on the field that isn't in favor of IMF rape for of the people.

[Tim Cornelis]

Will respond in more detail later.

The more I read about New Russia, the more convinced I am it's fascist. It's not entirely clear how power is distributed, but the leadership is in the hands of the New Russian Party, which is an orgy of far-rightism and ultra-nationalism.

It's wrong to say that describing the ideological content of fascism is "idealist". Describing social liberalism by its ideological content: advocating liberal democracy, protection of private property, some welfare measures, and civil liberties, is not idealism because it does not preclude acknowledging that ideologies are veils of class politics.

And I think that palingenetic ultranationalism is the most accurate and correct approach to describing the ideological content of fascism.

[Dagoth Ur]

Except the ideological content of fascism is essentially vacuous because fascism itself is a temporary measure. As soon as they establish security they are inevitably, and systematically, removed and replaced by ever-more liberal "fascists", until the whole facade is tossed away. Furthermore their ideology rarely ever converts to actual policy or reform.

Fascism is a circus. And like all circuses it is meant to distract from the real issue.

[Tim Cornelis]

I disagree. And you just made a statement without explanatory arguments, so I can't go into it anymore than that.

[Geiseric]

The fascists in the People's Republic of Donetsk have more dominant positions of power there. They dominate the political scene, whereas the fascists in Kiev are a minority. I don't see why that makes it "still better", unless you factor in that you are a WWP-supporter and rally behind any anti-US and anti-Western political pile of shit.

This statement is complete bullshit. Kiev fascists are in the govt ffs, and the DRP isnt fascist. Is somebody paying you to spout this nonsense?

[Hrafn]

This statement is complete bullshit. Kiev fascists are in the govt ffs, and the DRP isnt fascist. Is somebody paying you to spout this nonsense?


1. Svoboda have left the government. Not sure about Right Sector.

2. Yes it is.

3. Being paid by Moscow, Geis? :lol:

[Rurkel]

Svoboda had left the parliament (Right Sector as such never was in the parliament in the first place), but high-placed people in the party still hold many important government posts (e. g., A. M. Sych, the deputy prime minister). The influence of Ukrainian far-right is not so much in their numbers, but in other political forces accepting them as legitimate allies. Also, the "special battalions" of Ukrainian army are formed largely of various far-right paramilitary organizations, many of them members of the aforementioned Right Sector.

Ukrainian government isn't exactly fascist, but its reliance on paramilitary street orgs and the presence of far-right parties' members in the government makes it more deserving of such an epithet then someone like Bush or Obama.

[Tim Cornelis]

This statement is complete bullshit. Kiev fascists are in the govt ffs, and the DRP isnt fascist. Is somebody paying you to spout this nonsense?

I provided reasons for why I believe that the Federal State of New Russia is fascist, but your reply is merely "no" without arguments. I also don't see how Kiev having had a fascist party in its government means Novorossiya (?) is not fascist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Russia_Party


The first congress was attended by pro-Russian separatist officials of the Donetsk People's Republic, Donbass Militia. Notable figures belonging to anti-semitic Russian-nationalist extremist groups were involved,[6] including: Donetsk Republic leader Pavel Gubarev, neo-Nazi/fascist/Stalinist writer Alexander Prokhanov,[6] fascist political scientist and Eurasia Party leader Aleksandr Dugin, and Valery Korovin.[2][7] Both Prokhanov and Korovin are members of the Izborsky Club (ru), which advocate a "Eurasian Empire" to "save the peoples of Russia from degeneration and outside attack".[8] The congress announced the creation of a new self-declared confederate state called 'New Russia'. The state would, according to Dugin, have its capital city in Donetsk, Russian Orthodox Christianity as the state religion, and would nationalize major industries.[9] According to Gubarev the state would also include (the major cities currently not under control of separatists) Kharkiv, Kherson, Dnipropetrovsk, Mykolaiv and Zaporizhia.[10][11]

It was founded and headed by a wide variety of extremer right ultranationalists (palingenetic ones at that) -- 'national Stalinists', neo-fascists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People%27s_Republic


On 17 April pro-Russian separatists aided by Russian military specialists seized a TV tower providing signal to cities in the Donetsk region. Ukrainian channels were removed from air, with 'Russian propaganda channels given the frequencies'. On 20 April, which the Euro-Asian Congress noted was Adolf Hitler's birthday, activists boasted about their imminent "victory" in anti-Semitic terms. "Here, from Sloviansk, we are inflicting a powerful information conceptual blow to the biblical matrix...to Zionist zombie broadcasting." They then presented a lecture by former Russian Conceptual Party Unity leader Konstantin Petrov, who the EAJC described as a "anti-Semitic neo-pagan national-Stalinist sect".[88]

So in other words, broadcasting is controlled by 'Zionists', a typical anti-semitic canard.


The Donetsk People's Republic has adopted a "constitution" which states that the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate is the official religion of the self declared state.[1][89] Donetsk separatists consider Christian denominations such as the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate, Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Roman Catholics, and Protestants, as anti-Russian and see them as obstacles in the path of the separatist goal of uniting the region with Russia.[89]
According to Bishop Jan Sobil, in Kramatorsk a Catholic chapel was fired upon and parishioners, who have received threats from the pro-Russian separatists, are afraid to attend worship services. The separatists have also published the address of the church and of its priest on social networking side in an attempt at intimidation.[89] Father Tikhon Kulbaka of a Ukrainian Catholic Church states his church received a stream of threats from separatists.[1] Another Catholic priest, Pawel Witek, was kidnapped for a day where he was interrogated and accused of being a "Polish sniper" sent by the Polish government.[1][89] Members of a Gospel Church were forcibly dispersed at gunpoint by Donetsk insurgents on 23 May.[1] A Protestant clergyman Sergiy Koysak was held at the RSA building in Donetsk and interrogated, threatened, and beaten in a room marked "NKVD" for several hours by five men and one woman with clubs, batons, and whips. His injuries included a brain concussion. Koysak stated that "religious intolerance is on the rise" and believed his religion was a motivating factor of the attack.[1][89]

Patriarch Filaret also spoke about "numerous death threats against the Kiev Patriarchate clergy and believers" in the Donetsk areas controlled by the rebels.[89]

So very religious and sectarian, typical of the extreme right.


he News of Donbass reported that members of the Donbass People's Militia engaged in assaults and robbery on the Romani (Roma/Gypsy) population of Sloviansk. The armed separatists beat women and children, looted homes, and carried off the stolen goods in trucks, according to eyewitnesses.[90][91]
"They drove up in several cars and they had automatic weapons and pistols. They began shooting at the windows and they shot the locks off the doors, burst inside and started beating everyone - children, the elderly, men and women," Natalia Vorokuta, a member of a Romani women's cultural outreach group, told Romea.cz in describing events in Sloviansk. "They had to stand with their faces to the wall while the men threatened them and yelled that they had to immediately give them everything they have: Arms, drugs, gold and money. They threw everything they looted and stole into the vans and drove off," Vorokuta said, adding that the pogrom had an 'obviously racial subtext'.[92]
On 23 April, more attacks on Romani were reported in Sloviansk, including a man shot in the leg.[93]
The militants claimed they were acting on orders from 'People's Mayor' and militant leader Vyacheslav Ponomarev.[90][94] Reports of the attacks were confirmed by Prime Minister Yatsenyuk, as well as a heightened level of xenophobic rhetoric at separatist rallies.[95] Ponomarev confirmed the attacks and said that they were only against Romani he alleged were involved in drug trafficking, and that he was 'cleaning the city from drugs.'[96]
The European Roma Rights Center reported that on 29 April in Slovyansk a Romani man was shot while trying to defend his home and remains in serious condition.[91]
In Sloviansk, Romani have since fled en masse to live with relatives in other parts of the country, fearing ethnic cleansing, displacement and murder. Some men who have decided to remain are forming militia groups to protect their families and homes.[92]
On 9 May the US mission to the OSCE condemned credible reports of pro-Russian groups establishing "a disturbing and ongoing pattern of anti-Roma violence." The organization called on Russia "to use its influence with pro-Russia separatist groups to cease their destabilizing activity that could be perceived as enabling violence and intimidation targeted at Roma."[91]

Attacks on Roma, also typical of the extreme right.


On 10 June it was reported that armed militants from the Donetsk Republic attacked a gay club in the capital of Donetsk, injuring several. Witnesses said 20 people forced their way into the club, shooting male and female visitors.[97]

No comment.

[Geiseric]

Wow great source. Wikipedia. Im flabergasted. Im just going to post "left communists are lizard people" on the Bordiga page and see how much its quoted here. Its possible they're being framed, seeing as theres such a thing as "psychological warfare" which exists. Why the fuck would the seperatists celebrate Hitlers birthday when they constantly criticize the kiev government for including fascist parties? Anyways the only "evidence" youve shown is as sunstantial as CNN's evidence about the plane, along with writing page after page about YOUR theory of fascism which is unscientific.

[Geiseric]

Not to mention that due to Kiev, Slovyansk is in ruins, and there is a mass exodus from the region, in no small part helped by the propaganda you're parroting.

[Hrafn]

Geis, Wikipedia is a third party source. It links to actual sources. If ghere are any specific claims that you want proper source for, ask and I can probably find one. Don't be a dick about it.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

"Palingenetic ultra-nationalism" is bourgie rubbish. What "golden age" did the Lokot Autonomy or Tiso's Slovakia look back to? The great Slovak Empire what never existed? Oh, and I guess people like Lilburne and Hare were fascists for talking about a Saxon golden age and the Norman yoke. What clever people they were, being fascists before fascism was invented. It's all a bit silly. As Marxists, we base our analysis on the role of an ideology in the functioning of class society, not on the overt statements of its proponents (not that these were ever consistent when it comes to fascism). People might as well drag out "Ur-Fascism" or the old "guise fascism isn't necessarily racist look at Franco, gypsies, what gypsies?" canard.

It doesn't matter in any case. Communists oppose both fascists and "anti-fascist" liberals, and we do not ignore a demand simply because fascists also support it (otherwise we might as well have dropped any opposition to the French occupation of the Saar etc.). Of course we do not extend any support to fascists either.

So, can communists extend support to the political leadership of the DPR or however they're calling themselves this week? Of course not. We might as well ask NazBols to be our pals. On the other hand, can we oppose the demand of the workers in the eastern regions of the Ukraine for separation. On what grounds would we oppose it? On the grounds that the borders of the bourgeois Ukrainian state are sacrosanct? That would be a capitulation to liberalism of the worst sort.

[Tim Cornelis]

^Not actually knowing what he's talking about; still dismissing it because it doesn't fit in his predetermined framework. Typical of 870, and therefore it's best to ignore him. Does nothing but misconstrue, misread, and misinterpret.

[John Nada]

Here's an interview with an ex-rebel. I can't post links yet. rferl. org/content/ukraine-i-was-a-separatist-fighter/25455466.html" (not really a pro-Russia source)
RFE/RL: Were there Russian nationalists among them? Gasparyan: I didn't see any nationalists, although most of the guys there were Slavs. Whether they were Belarusians, Russians, or Ukrainian -- I can't say. They were good, patriotic guys. None of them looked at me funny because I'm Armenian. There were a bunch of guys from the Caucasus, some Armenians from Krasnodar and [the Ukrainian city of] Kryvyy Rih. Some Chechens came a little later. I became friends with a few -- one guy named Red and another named Small. Both of them were killed in those KamAZ trucks.
RFE/RL: What stories on television that you've seen strike you as the most outrageous and disturbing? Gasparyan: When they do interviews with people from the Donetsk People's Republic [DNR in Russian]. The DNR is a really a fiction. The DNR, as I understand it, exists only in the offices of [self-proclaimed DNR Prime Minister Aleksandr] Borodai, [self-proclaimed DNR parliament speaker Denis] Pushilin, [former Ukrainian parliament deputy Oleh] Tsaryov. But decisions are made somewhere else and by other people.In other news articles they mention that there might be some different factions. Some have clashed over looting and tactics. In a New York Times article they asked the rebels what they want. Some said they want a union with Russia. Others wanted federalization or independence. Some of the rebels said that Putin was too scared to help because he doesn't want to lose his money. He threatens they'll be a revolution in Red Square if they lose, IIRC. I think Borotba might be thinking along the lines of Mao during WWII. A temporary united front to fight a common enemy. Still, it's unfortunate if they're working with fascist. It sucks that every side is reactionary. However I can't blame the worker's if they want to fight the Kiev government. Being bombed and all. The OP's of Borotba's declaration seems more like social democracy than fascism. However I've seen some link to sites that claim it's proven that Borotba's working and shilling for Russian fascist. Unfortunately I think it's in German so I can't read it and see if it's true.

[adipocere]

Here's an interview with an ex-rebel. I can't post links yet. rferl. org/content/ukraine-i-was-a-separatist-fighter/25455466.html" (not really a pro-Russia source).

You got that right - RFE/RL is VOA in Europe (US State Department)

[Hrafn]

Oh hey, look what I found!

http://www.borotba.org/v_kryimu_obyavili_o_sozdanii_komiteta_osvobozhdeni ya_odessyi.html

This is how Wikipedia describes it:


The leader of the Odessian regional organisation of Borotba, Aleksey Albu, fled to Russian-annexed Crimea, where he founded a "Committee for the Liberation of Odessa" on the 24th of May 2014 together with a representative of the right wing conservative party Rodina ("Homeland"), Aleksandr Vasilyev, and a representative of the neonazi organization "Slavic Unity", Dmitry Odninov.

Lovely!

[Hrafn]

Meet Dmitry Odninov. He's in the middle. To the right, Odessan Borotba leader Aleksey Albu

http://i.imgur.com/akDnMTk.jpg

Now, meet Dmitry in 2012, when he was interviewed leading a neo-nazi march in Odessa.

Qr6klJwhzRU

Loveeeeely.

[Geiseric]

Explain the odessa trade union building massacre otherwise you are on the side of Kiev.

[Hrafn]

Explain the odessa trade union building massacre otherwise you are on the side of Kiev.

You gotta be a bit more explicit than that, Geissy. Explain what?

[Geiseric]

You gotta be a bit more explicit than that, Geissy. Explain what?

The fact that armed mobs of racist ukranians murdered dozens of protesters by burning down the Odessa region's major union headquarters. Also the death by torture done to the leader of the CP of Ukraine, and of Borotba's leader who was beaten to death by a fascist mob. I dont see that happening to pro kiev supporters! Also its a blatant lie that Borotba is supported by Russia, whoever managed to read Borotbas wiki page can tell within a second about their political orientation which is legitimate due to the US backed coup of the Yanukovic govt. Borotba doesnt support Yanukovic's party, unlike russian neo nazis.

I support unconditional defeat of any and all US forces and proxies around the world. Poroshenko needs to be overthrown. Russophobia is part and parcel with US foreign policy. Look at the other countries which have been absorbed into NATO and you will realize the err of your ways.

[Hrafn]

I thought you hated Wikipedia as a source, Geissy, as you've frequently said. Besides, formal ideology matters little. Actions speak for themselves.

What does the tragic massacre in Odessa have to do with any of this? Personally, I think you're just trying to exploit the deaths of a few dozen Russian nationalists, Ukrainian socialists and trade unionist for your own gain, by appealing to emotion.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

What does the tragic massacre in Odessa have to do with any of this? Personally, I think you're just trying to exploit the deaths of a few dozen Russian nationalists, Ukrainian socialists and trade unionist for your own gain, by appealing to emotion.

For someone who portrays themselves as not aligned with Kiev, you certainly seem anxious to downplay the actions of the Kiev regime, you know. In fact this has been the behaviour of our not-really-pro-Kiev-honest-guvnor bloc from the start of the Maidan disturbances.

[Hrafn]

For someone who portrays themselves as not being a shill for Moscow, you're overinterpreting a lot.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

For someone who portrays themselves as not being a shill for Moscow, you're overinterpreting a lot.

Then surely you can demonstrate that you have actually criticised the Kiev government in a substantial manner? No?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Well since literally no one has made comments in support of Kiev, there hasn't been much need to put effort into bad mouthing them here. The separatists on the other hand had a wellspring of support here initially so there are obviously going to be many more anti-separatist posts as a result.

[Hrafn]

I don't see a need to critize Kiev. Why would I? Everyone critizes Kiev. Pick up any newspaper, and you can read about them bombing civilian homes. Practically every left-wing group in existence has, rightfully, condemned Kiev as in league with European and American imperialism, as right-wing and anti-democratic, etc. The presence of Svoboda and the Right Sector is very well reported internationally. Even the foreign neo-Nazi mercenaries, from my own home country, are very common knowledge.

There is no need to post information on Revleft on how much Kiev sucks, just as I don't need to make Nazi atrocities in WW2 a talking point, or American crimes in Vietnam, or any shit like that. We all know about it. We have all read about it. But the sorid Fascist presence in east Ukraine, and the international Fascist support for it, is very little known among the left, and needs to be reported on.

You people, however, are just the same shills as you've always been. :)

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Well since literally no one has made comments in support of Kiev, there hasn't been much need to put effort into bad mouthing them here. The separatists on the other hand had a wellspring of support here initially so there are obviously going to be many more anti-separatist posts as a result.

Really? Have we been reading the same site? Because I distinctly remember gushing support for the brave Maidan protestors from the day one, along with obvious attempts to downplay the presence of fascists. Then, of course, everyone who disagreed was attacked as an "anti-imp", which in RevLeft parlance means simply anyone who doesn't align themselves with Obama.

Now we have Hrafn, who minimises the events in Odessa - oh, a few dozen Russian nationalists (and Ukrainian socialists and trade unionists) were burned while accusing the separatists of ethnic cleansing (something his own sources do not support). So, yeah, it's pretty obvious to see what's going on.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Really? Have we been reading the same site? Because I distinctly remember gushing support for the brave Maidan protestors from the day one, along with obvious attempts to downplay the presence of fascists. Then, of course, everyone who disagreed was attacked as an "anti-imp", which in RevLeft parlance means simply anyone who doesn't align themselves with Obama.

Now we have Hrafn, who minimises the events in Odessa - oh, a few dozen Russian nationalists (and Ukrainian socialists and trade unionists) were burned while accusing the separatists of ethnic cleansing (something his own sources do not support). So, yeah, it's pretty obvious to see what's going on.

I would like to see you conjur 5 positive posts made about the Kiev government since it was formed, by members with over 100 posts. Even the protests had lost the majority of the support they had here before the end. Ironically the only people who have ever had anything positive to say about any government in Kiev are the people who now support neo Nazis on the other side of the country

[Hrafn]

The large-scale support for "Maidan" ended when the larger conflict in Ukraine broke out, and its true corruption was revealed. I for one never backed that bougie would-be revolution. Since then, there has been almost nothing but hate for Kiev on this site, rightfully so.

Thousands of people have died in the overall conflict, most of them at the hands of the Ukrainian army and their auxiliary mercenary forces. I don't view a tiny massacre, as tragic as it was, as having enough importance to constantly rant about. Deal with it. A single school bombing in Palestine is tragic too, but it is nothing compared to the almost two thousand Palestinians who have been slaughtered by the IDF for the past few weeks, for example.

[Geiseric]

A shill for moscow! Youre fucking clueless. The rus govt wants to end the conflict instead of supporting Donbass! Putin wants to sell them down the river to the EU as he did with the Slovyansk martyrs and every civilian killed. DRP has about as substantial weapons as HAMAS, apart what was stolen from the Ukies. The Ukies are armed with 5 billion dollars worth from Bush and Obama. Maidan led to a coup during which Poroshenko and his lackeys crushed the Ukrainian trade unions and murdered some of their leaders, by fucking torturing them to death.

That is why this confict started, not "pro russian neo nazi proxy funded by putin" which is what CNN is saying, since it is IMPOSSIBLE to publicly support a genocidal regime such as Israel or Chocolate king without waging a propaganda war, attacking the character of their enemies.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I would like to see you conjur 5 positive posts made about the Kiev government since it was formed, by members with over 100 posts. Even the protests had lost the majority of the support they had here before the end. Ironically the only people who have ever had anything positive to say about any government in Kiev are the people who now support neo Nazis on the other side of the country

Search for "Kiev" and read some of the posts - of course none of them say "I LOVE KIEV GO SVOBODA!". When some users - including me! - supported the Assad government during the civil war none of us went "GO ASSAD! YA ŠAHAB AL-ORB!" either. But you will find an entirely one-sided narrative that reports everything wrong the separatists have done or are alleged to have done and attempts to minimise everything the Kiev government has done or prove that they're not fascists. The Party of Swedes has abandoned Svoboda! Svoboda has left the government! Not to mention that members of the forum posted statements by openly pro-Maidan forces like the AWU.

Not to mention how utterly idiotic the sentiment is. I guess that since most of the world supported the Serb side during the civil war that happened here in the nineties, the Serbs should have been vilified and every action of the Tuđman and Izetbegović governments minimised.


Thousands of people have died in the overall conflict, most of them at the hands of the Ukrainian army and their auxiliary mercenary forces. I don't view a tiny massacre, as tragic as it was, as having enough importance to constantly rant about. Deal with it. A single school bombing in Palestine is tragic too, but it is nothing compared to the almost two thousand Palestinians who have been slaughtered by the IDF for the past few weeks, for example.

Apples and oranges, given that, if anything, the Ukrainian side would be the equivalent of Israel, desperately trying to hold onto a territory whose population overwhelmingly rejects Kiev. But anyway, this doesn't excuse you for constantly claiming that the separatists are carrying out ethnic cleansing (and citing sources that condemn the Kiev and the Donbass regimes equally).

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

That's a whole lot of words when "no I can't" would have been enough. Are you guys just arguing for the sake of it, or what?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

That's a whole lot of words when "no I can't" would have been enough. Are you guys just arguing for the sake of it, or what?

Ugh.

Let me put it like this: I distinctly remember how, during the Yugoslav civil war, various "socialists" gave political support to one of the sides, not by openly going "we love Tuđman!" (since, in fact, it is impossible to love Tuđman), but by doing the same thing Hrafn and others are doing - minimising the actions of one side and focusing on the other. Thornett did that, so did Healy's group, so did Timmy Wohlforth, that sort of people. And now I'm seeing the same thing all over again.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I have not seen any indication of this, the fact that you remember such an incident has no relevance to this aside from you asserting that its happening. Everyone has said hostile things against the government in Kiev when asked. The thing is, there are no hysterical pro-Kiev users here on revleft so no one feels the need to bait them into discussions to watch them flail around like idiots. That's not the case with the pro-separatist posters. They can easily be baited into supporting some ridiculous shit which is entertaining to read and leads to additional threads being made at their expense.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I have not seen any indication of this, the fact that you remember such an incident has no relevance to this aside from you asserting that its happening. Everyone has said hostile things against the government in Kiev when asked. The thing is, there are no hysterical pro-Kiev users here on revleft so no one feels the need to bait them into discussions to watch them flail around like idiots. That's not the case with the pro-separatist posters. They can easily be baited into supporting some ridiculous shit which is entertaining to read and leads to additional threads being made at their expense.

Except I gave at least one example - Hrafn reading a report about the sporadic fleeing of Roma on both sides of the conflict, and spinning it as a campaign of ethnic cleansing by the separatists.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

In what way does that demonstrate a pro-Kiev sentiment? The separatists and the government both have Nazis in the field, ethnic cleansing would not be a very surprising development at this point.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

In what way does that demonstrate a pro-Kiev sentiment? The separatists and the government both have Nazis in the field, ethnic cleansing would not be a very surprising development at this point.

Um, so reading a report that chronicles incidents both in territory controlled by the separatists and territory controlled by Kiev and completely ignoring the second category, misrepresenting the first category as a reported campaign of ethnic cleansing, does not demonstrate a pro-Kiev orientation? Sure.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

No it really doesn't, as I've said there is no discussion to be had on this site regarding Kiev since everyone is on the same page. That's not the case with the separatists. You really do seem intent on arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Geiseric]

In what way does that demonstrate a pro-Kiev sentiment? The separatists and the government both have Nazis in the field, ethnic cleansing would not be a very surprising development at this point.

Borotba isnt nazi and you would by lying through your teeth to claim they are as Tim and Hrafn did earlier.

[Hrafn]

I have already explained why I pay no heed to the foul deeds and war crimes of Kiev. Stop repeating yourself.

[Hrafn]

Borotba isnt nazi and you would by lying through your teeth to claim they are as Tim and Hrafn did earlier.

At no point have I claimed Borotba is Nazi.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I have already explained why I pay no heed to the foul deeds and war crimes of Kiev. Stop repeating yourself.

You explained it and the explanation made no sense. When did this alleged massive shift in the attitude of RevLeft toward the Maidan/Kiev side take place, when people were screaming about the glorious people's revolution and how the Nazi involvement is a dirty anti-imp lie, or during the embarrassed silence in the aftermath of the fascist coup when anyone who talked about it was attacked as an anti-imp?

Since you've admitted that you ignore the unpalatable actions of Kiev, don't be surprised when people call you out for the shill you are.

[Hrafn]

You're the shill here, buddie. Don't fool yourself. Either that, or you're delusional.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

You're the shill here, buddie. Don't fool yourself. Either that, or you're delusional.

Yeah, I shill for the DPR or whatever it's called today by comparing them to NazBols. Sure.

[Rurkel]

There are semi-regular "how horrible!" outrage threads on revleft, where people line up to say how awful some thing or other is, so why no outrage thread about the government in Kiev?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Why don't you make one?