American children working 14 hours a day on tobacco farms

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/17/health/hrw-children-tobacco-workers-report/

As much as I dislike Human Rights Watch, I have to say this report they gave recently is stunning. You all have probably already talked about it, but I'm posting it again.


Called "Tobacco's Hidden Children: Hazardous Child Labor in US Tobacco Farming," the report documents conditions on farms in North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky and Virginia. Ninety percent of all tobacco grown in this country comes from those four states.

The researchers interviewed 141 child tobacco workers between the ages of 7 and 17 for the report. Nearly 75% reported a range of devastating symptoms, including vomiting, nausea, headache, dizziness, skin rashes and burning eyes.

Many of the symptoms are consistent with acute nicotine poisoning, said Margaret Wurth, a children's rights researcher at Human Rights Watch and co-author of the report. It's often called green tobacco sickness, or GTS.


"We found that kids are working 10 or 12, sometimes 14-hour days in extreme heat," Wurth said. "They often have no place to go to the bathroom, no place to wash their hands at work and many of them are given no safety training, no health education and no protective equipment."

I'm generally against the death penalty, but the people responsible for this should be shot. No pity. Their brains should be blown out. I won't be the one to pull the trigger, and I won't be involved, but I hope someone else does it, and I hope it happens in my lifetime.:mad:

[#FF0000]

Human Rights Watch has been surprising the shit out of me lately, to be honest. Sometimes I like to troll the hell out of more patriotic friends and family and I find myself citing them a lot when i shit-talk the US for fun and profit.

But yeah, agricultural work in the US is horrendous. The safeguards and regulations that exist in other industries as far as safety or even child labor laws don't exist in large part because for some reason folks who write laws think working on a farm is like working a big garden and playing with cows. I remember reading a report a couple years back about the amount of children who die in grain silos, getting stuck in the grain or corn which acts like quicksand.

Agriculture in the US is just as hazardous as any other kind of heavy industrial work, but like I said, people with power act like it's just a big garden.

[audiored]

The safeguards and regulations that exist in other industries as far as safety or even child labor laws don't exist in large part because for some reason folks who write laws think working on a farm is like working a big garden and playing with cows.

Because it was mostly migrants and people of color (and still is) when those regulations were passed. Also domestic work was largely excluded from protections.

[Sinister Intents]

Shit, this makes me think of how the Amish families in my area use child labor and make their fucking 8 year olds work 10+ hour days. Fuck these assholes

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Many petit-bourgeoisie "family businesses" and enterprises are exempt from parts of child labour laws in some U.S. states (at least Florida that I can recall) and make use of their children as free labour to man their stores or do simple labour as well.

[exeexe]

Why cant the children not just walk away? It doesnt sound like they are forced to work by the employer.

[Geiseric]

Why cant the children not just walk away? It doesnt sound like they are forced to work by the employer.

Is that an actual argument or are you being sarcastic?

[exeexe]

its not an argument, its a question.

When "?" is used it means its a question.
In spanish though you also have to use "¿".

But thats quite funny but dont get fooled. Spanish people know how to make questions too. They are good questionsmaker. We are all questionsmakers! questionsmakers of the world unite!!

[#FF0000]

Why cant the children not just walk away? It doesnt sound like they are forced to work by the employer.

Uh, because they're children and don't know any better, and will do whatever an adult they recognize as an authority figure tells them to do.

[exeexe]

well if they havent learned at the age of 17 that they can think for themselves, then they will never learn it. By your logic no one should be able to work in a tobaco farm...

My opinion is that people can think for themselves. I did that from a very young age.

[#FF0000]

well if they havent learned at the age of 17 that they can think for themselves, then they will never learn it. By your logic no one should be able to work in a tobaco farm...

My opinion is that people can think for themselves. I did that from a very young age.

Ah, guess we shouldn't bother organizing workers who take any old shitty job, since they could all just walk away.

[#FF0000]

This is without touching the idea that kids are gonna know better. They aren't just little adults, and even a 17 year old isn't going to have the experience of one who's worked for even a couple years in different job sites. When I got my first "real" job, I knew it was awful, but had no idea how awful it was until I was just a little bit older.

Christ, dude.

[exeexe]

So how far would your branch of organized workers who cant think for themselves go?
I mean whats the point of organising if you cant think?:confused:

First you need to realise that you can just walk away
Then when you know this you can organise

[DigitalBluster]

Why cant the children not just walk away? It doesnt sound like they are forced to work by the employer.

This sounds like the capitalist apologetic which claims that nobody's forcing wage workers to accept employment, that it's a mutually beneficial arrangement between rational actors, and so there's no injustice. Of course, this ignores the fact that there's no real alternative.

[exeexe]

Of course, this ignores the fact that there's no real alternative.
For children there should be. What did you do at age 7?

[#FF0000]

So how far would your branch of organized workers who cant think for themselves go?
I mean whats the point of organising if you cant think?:confused:

1. These are children.

2. People can be totally conscious that they're in a shitty job and stick with it because of a lack of alternative, because of economic necessity, and for myriad other reasons.

3. Kids who grow up in a rural part of the country where this happens are also living in a place where this is considered normal in the first place.

But I have to go back and stress my first point -- these are children, and not adults.


This sounds like the capitalist apologetic which claims that nobody's forcing wage workers to accept employment, that it's a mutually beneficial arrangement between rational actors, and so there's no injustice. Of course, this ignores the fact that there's no real alternative.

Only the most ardent market worshipping bowtie-lord would even act as if that's what's happening here. People who live in the real world would recognize that children are not rational actors.

[Loony Le Fist]

Why cant the children not just walk away? It doesnt sound like they are forced to work by the employer.

While you may have had the personality type to not succum to authority (I can surely relate :laugh:), many people do not. It's rough before age 25. It's easy to get caught up deferring to authority figures who might not be so great. Perhaps you have heard of Stockholm Syndrome, where victims begin to empathize and side with their captors. Frankly, I think our entire society is suffering from collective SS in a way.

I can see why these kids might not quit. Perhaps they are allowing authority figures to dictate their lives. Perhaps, they need the money. Perhaps, their parents want them to build character, or some other stupid shit. I think many of us can agree here that capitalism is the problem. Just like most working people, I wouldn't say they can just walk away.

[DigitalBluster]

For children there should be.

Obviously. I was noting the similarity between your comment and the sentiment I referenced. It's possible you didn't mean it that way, but it's odd anyway.

[exeexe]

If i was forced to work 14 hours every day i would feel it wasnt worth living anymore.

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

If i was forced to work 14 hours every day i would feel it wasnt worth living anymore.

Maybe you would, but you wouldn't do anything about it because NINE-YEAR-OLDS DO NOT KNOW HOW TO UTILIZE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AND CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE! OMFG, GET IT THROUGH YOUR F*CKING HEAD!

I'm sorry, I just had to get that out of my system.:rolleyes:

That being said, some of the older teenagers probably do know they're being exploited and have considered fighting back. But even then, where would they have to go? You don't seem to understand their situation. Most of them are migrants or very poor. If they don't keep working and doing as they're told, they'll get fired, and then their whole family will end up under a bridge. That's the brutal reality.

In other words, for the time being, these kids are powerless to improve their condition. That could change, but it hasn't yet. You seem to be struggling to accept this.

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

We ought to do something about this. Some kind of public awareness campaign would be great. We could get lots of Americans pissed off about this and slip in some anti-capitalist propaganda in the process. What could be a better way to introduce people to socialism than by fighting quasi-child slavery?

Anybody with me?

[Loony Le Fist]

If i was forced to work 14 hours every day i would feel it wasnt worth living anymore.

I hear you. It would be terrible. I couldn't imagine being those kids caught between a rock and a hard place. Perhaps you or I are types of people that can't stand being held down by authority--despite the trouble it has brought me. :laugh: But, others don't have that personality type to deal with the psychological hardship of going against the grain. It does take a certain type of mindset, for better or worse.

[Loony Le Fist]

Maybe you would, but you wouldn't do anything about it because NINE-YEAR-OLDS DO NOT KNOW HOW TO UTILIZE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AND CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE! OMFG, GET IT THROUGH YOUR F*CKING HEAD!


Also, nine year olds are often subject to a far more totalitarian type system. I mean your parents are basically your dictator at that age. Perhaps for some people defying your parents meant being sent to your room. I bet some of these kids get serious whoopings for disobedience. I got bit in the face once, for instance. As in a literal bite to cheek. What was I supposed to do? Move out at 8? :laugh:



That being said, some of the older teenagers probably do know they're being exploited and have considered fighting back. But even then, where would they have to go? You don't seem to understand their situation. Most of them are migrants or very poor. If they don't keep working and doing as they're told, they'll get fired, and then their whole family will end up under a bridge. That's the brutal reality.

In other words, for the time being, these kids are powerless to improve their condition. That could change, but it hasn't yet. You seem to be struggling to accept this.

Nothing else to add. They might either be in a situation where they are powerless, or they don't have a grasp of how powerful they can be in solidarity.

[Sea]

its not an argument, its a question.

When "?" is used it means its a question.
In spanish though you also have to use "¿".

But thats quite funny but dont get fooled. Spanish people know how to make questions too. They are good questionsmaker. We are all questionsmakers! questionsmakers of the world unite!!10/10. Far better than Geiseric's post.

[PhoenixAsh]

I know better to post in this thread...but I am going to do so anyway: YOLO

The report answers the question of shy these kids do this and this is because their income is needed to support their families. There is not only the question of authority, awareness and understanding, but one of sheer economic necessity.

Child labour traditionally is a direct result and directly linked to wage exploitation and high taxation burdens which influence peoples economic survival.

The fact that the majority of these kids originate from immigrant families underscores the poverty and exploitation these families face and highlight the structutal racism in the job market.

[exeexe]

NINE-YEAR-OLDS DO NOT KNOW HOW TO UTILIZE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AND CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE! OMFG, GET IT THROUGH YOUR F*CKING HEAD!

I'm sorry, I just had to get that out of my system.:rolleyes:

I got it through my head. It went in the left side and out the right side :grin:

http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/24/wisconsin%E2%80%99s-teachers-required-to-teach-kids-labor-union-and-collective-bargaining-history/

Its strange. If kids are too stupid to utilize collective bargaining (as you suggest) why would teachers then waste time teaching about it?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

So we literally have people who defend workers working in shitty conditions because they can just walk away and also it's all small family business and has RevLeft been hit by some sort of idiotification ray that's the only explanation I can think of.

[A Psychological Symphony]

I got it through my head. It went in the left side and out the right side :grin:

http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/24/wisconsin%E2%80%99s-teachers-required-to-teach-kids-labor-union-and-collective-bargaining-history/

Its strange. If kids are too stupid to utilize collective bargaining (as you suggest) why would teachers then waste time teaching about it?

Are you actually a leftist? Why are you defending the right to make children work 14 hour work days on the basis of "If they don't like it they can always leave"?

I hope that so far every post of yours in this thread has just been a bad joke and that can be the end of it. If not then why desire socialism? after all if we don't like our current jobs we can always just quit and find a better one, right?

[Hagalaz]

I find this hard to believe.

[exeexe]

Why are you defending the right to make children work 14 hour work days on the basis of "If they don't like it they can always leave"?
You should address this to TheWannabeAnarchist http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2769862#post2769862), it was he who suggested that you cant use bargaining right and civil obedience for kids.

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

You should address this to TheWannabeAnarchist http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2769862#post2769862), it was he who suggested that you cant use bargaining right and civil obedience for kids.

Revleft has gone to pot. :laugh:

[Five Year Plan]

Meanwhile, in suburbia, children are becoming obese because they watch television for fourteen hours a day, and do little else besides.

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

I never said young people are incapable of fighting oppression, or that they're too stupid to know they're being exploited. In fact, I'm very frustrated by the fact that you're accusing me of that, because if you look at my older posts you'll see that I'm a youth rights militant.

Children and teenagers have been revolutionaries before and accomplished some amazing things. Take, for example, the 20,000 South African high school students who rallied against apartheid in 1976. They turned the international community against the South African government. Sanctions against the country increased and more uprisings followed until the regime fell less than twenty years later. Never forget it: apartheid's death knell was sounded in part by a bunch of pissed-off adolescents.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soweto_uprising

But that still doesn't negate the fact that kids are inexperienced and malleable. Why do you think churches set up Sunday schools and hell houses for children? Most will believe anything an adult tells them. If a ten-year-old believes a bearded man flies through the sky every Christmas delivering presents to 7 billion people in 12 hours with flying reindeer, how the fuck do you expect her to have the common sense it takes to turn against a system of oppression she's been immersed in he was born?

And even those that do are under their parents' thumb, and they could be beaten and punished severely if they rebel. America is hardly a haven of childrens' rights; we haven't even ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. (The only other nation not to, I believe, is Somalia.) You can brutalize your kid with a two-by-four with impunity.

I could continue this rebuttal all day, but now, suddenly, I realize I'm wasting my time. With all due respect--because I really don't mean to be a jackass about this--you are either a troll, a pre-teen, or a very deluded adult. So, exeexe, I think it's time our discussion ended. We all have better things to do with our time.

And for the rest of you guys, let's just not respond to these bourgeois-apologist arguments anymore. I want to start talking about ways we can spread information about this exploitation instead. Maybe we could make simple internet memes, sort of like this?

http://delightfullypoliticalah360.blogspot.com/2013/09/syria-meme-reaction.html

Spread them around on social media, Reddit, Twitter, you name it. Give a link to a childrens' rights group and Revleft. Who knows, it could be the next #BringBackOurGirls!:laugh:

[exeexe]

What about this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child
http://www.un.org/cyberschoolbus/humanrights/resources/plainchild.asp

[#FF0000]

this thread makes me miss revleft's purges.

[Decolonize The Left]

I got it through my head. It went in the left side and out the right side :grin:

http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/24/wisconsin%E2%80%99s-teachers-required-to-teach-kids-labor-union-and-collective-bargaining-history/

Its strange. If kids are too stupid to utilize collective bargaining (as you suggest) why would teachers then waste time teaching about it?

Obvious troll is obvious.

http://imgs.abduzeedo.com/files/articles/baby-animals/Baby-Animals-011.jpg

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Obvious troll is obvious.

http://imgs.abduzeedo.com/files/articles/baby-animals/Baby-Animals-011.jpg

Dude, do you mind, I haven't had lunch and now you're posting panda pictures. So hungry...

Seriously, though, I don't think exeexe is a troll, although I do think he should be restricted or. Well. Hahahaha. Trolling implies that they do not believe in the nonsense they spout, which I think is too charitable an assumption. No, the problem is that we seem to have attracted a number of people who consider themselves socialists but are actually liberals or American-style populist, more Long than Coughlin, hopefully.

[Loony Le Fist]

Some days it feels like we are harder on fellow leftists than we are on the right.

[exeexe]

Some days it feels like we are harder on fellow leftists than we are on the right.
When you say "we", does that imply that you are doing it yourself?

[Halert]

exeexe, are you really saying that nothing is wrong and nothing should be done about this situation because the kids can just walk away?
If not could you clarify your position?
How do you respond to people calling you a liberal?

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

I have this strange feeling that exeexe's days here are numbered.

Can we just restrict/ban him and get this whole thing over with? I'm trying to start a discussion on how to actually help these kids and he keeps throwing us off track.

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

Also, anybody who reads and cites Daily Caller is clearly a neoliberal bastard. Just saying...:laugh:

[exeexe]

exeexe, are you really saying that nothing is wrong and nothing should be done about this situation because the kids can just walk away?

No i never said that


How do you respond to people calling you a liberal?
http://www.sproutdistro.com/about/anarchism/

[Atsumari]

Meanwhile, in suburbia, children are becoming obese because they watch television for fourteen hours a day, and do little else besides.
You almost convinced me that there is something good about child labour :laugh:

[Loony Le Fist]

When you say "we", does that imply that you are doing it yourself?

I have been guilty of it on more than one occasion. I'm certainly not trying to in this circumstance.

[The Intransigent Faction]

You almost convinced me that there is something good about child labour :laugh:

Repetitive manual labour in some form CAN also feel cathartic, I'm sure, even for teenagers, or maybe kids, as well as adults. :P

I'm sure that psychological effect can serve a function as a sort of numbing agent (i.e. that energy won't be directed instead toward the overthrow of the ruling class, not that kids will have a fully developed class consciousness anyway, though they may sense instinctually that something is unfair and doesn't have to be that way).

In all seriousness, though, yeah, there's a huuuge difference between "fresh air an exercise" and child labour.

As for what can be done about it...telling people to "just walk away" is a pretty lousy 'solution'. That said, do we really have new ideas due to this case, or just the same general strategy being advocated for class struggle as in other cases (building class consciousness, civil disobedience, etc.).? The first thing that comes to minds here may be "get rid of capitalism", but that's not what comes to most people's minds. Without real class consciousness no real solution will be possible, so the question of what to do about this seems tied to the question of how to build class consciousness to its boiling point. Of course, when kids are getting seriously ill, most people won't be responsive to solutions that seem like "abstract theorizing", but that's all the more reason to be direct an unflinchingly uncompromising.

If that was too much jargon, the point in short is that I'm not so sure "What is to be done" is the problem as much as is getting it done.

[Geiseric]

So how far would your branch of organized workers who cant think for themselves go?
I mean whats the point of organising if you cant think?:confused:

First you need to realise that you can just walk away
Then when you know this you can organise

Is that how you think labor and capital interact? If so you need to educate yourself, nobody can really help you.

[Rosa Partizan]

Meanwhile, in suburbia, children are becoming obese because they watch television for fourteen hours a day, and do little else besides.

pretty sure some tobacco farm labor would make them drop weight very fast. And after having lost that weight, they could just walk away.