Loneliness

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

It seems like loneliness is a pretty common thing where I'm from. I was wondering what your experiences of it have been and what advice you could give to someone who is suffering from it.

I might even remember some of it for myself. People like me can get lonely simply because of our ideas and how they estrange other people, or create a situation where ordinary conversation is just plain boring.

[Ele'ill]

It's usually directly a result of mental health. That is layered and complicated and I haven't really figured it out exactly but I think generally the loneliness comes in some time after a mental health event is over, if there is some type of stasis involved where I am able to pick up the pieces. This is usually very brief. It is more of a longing not to have the issues and to have lived some type of stable life and the possibilities that would have come along with that.

[thriller]

"Everything that occupies your mind is forever alien to me." - Erofeev

Yeah I'm sort of their now, but somewhat have been. I know exactly what you mean by conversation being boring, and for me sometimes banal, because of how I think. We (by that I mean leftists) don't seem to see the world in the same terms as a lot of people, at least from my experience. And that frustrates me a lot! But I've found that if I bring up my viewpoint on a subject, or even a new topic, some people find it interesting and become engaged. Isolation can overcome me so easily, and it's hard to break free from, so trying everyday to somehow put myself out there gives me more confidence and doesn't let me slip back into it. Picking up or pursing an old hobby can help occupy your mind and even put you in contact with like minded people.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

It's usually directly a result of mental health. That is layered and complicated and I haven't really figured it out exactly but I think generally the loneliness comes in some time after a mental health event is over, if there is some type of stasis involved where I am able to pick up the pieces. This is usually very brief. It is more of a longing not to have the issues and to have lived some type of stable life and the possibilities that would have come along with that.

I can relate to that. It seems especially damaging when a person has nothing to occupy themselves in a routine way, like now (holidays are here so everything is transient).

This is what has happened to me recently, hence the motive to create this post and cry out to others who might want to hear and help me. Just a while ago I read the Endnotes article you posted and resonated deeply with it. This kind of mental boost was/is only temporary though and doesn't solve the real problem that I keep meeting - the lack of a stimulating social life that transcends ordinary boring lifestyles, if only in spirit.

Either pursuing that desire (to be with people like me who show a conscious appreciation of our circumstances above typical recuperated ideologies, including Leninism) is unhealthy in itself or I'm going about it the wrong way.

Regardless, I do know that I am suffering MORE than usual because it's the holidays and things are so unfixed, irregularities are everywhere (no constant meet ups at work for example). So pursuing social fulfilment is harder.

I keep thinking that I should just reign it in and instead try to re-assert my tamer cultural interests like music, less radical literature, gaming (or whatever that I have in common with other vaguely interesting people around me). Yet it doesn't feel enough for me.

Edit: Thanks Thriller for pointing out related things and suggesting hobbies but sometimes this feeling of loneliness kills my hobbies too. Not for long, but there's the fear of it happening again and I'm after a more permanent solution. It's the fear of taking the initiative for the infinite (minus one) time and not getting anywhere.

What can you all make of this?

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I feel lonely and isolated most of the time but to be fair that's because most of the time I live in a fog of generalised dread and don't leave my bedroom, in a twist of bitter irony contributing further to my bedroomian existence. That said I manage to feel like i'm on a fucking pillar or something even in nightclubs.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I feel lonely and isolated most of the time but to be fair that's because most of the time I live in a fog of generalised dread and don't leave my bedroom, in a twist of bitter irony contributing further to my bedroomian existence. That said I manage to feel like i'm on a fucking pillar or something even in nightclubs.

How does the bedroom-dwelling coexist with a nightclub? I for one would never venture forth to such a repugnant den of sickening social interaction.

[motion denied]

I feel lonely and isolated most of the time but to be fair that's because most of the time I live in a fog of generalised dread and don't leave my bedroom, in a twist of bitter irony contributing further to my bedroomian existence.

Quoted for absurd similarity.

[Sand Castle]

I live in a fog of generalized dread too. I have been in one since I was in 8th grade. I would usually leave my bedroom though. But I can't find work, so I need to stay in my bedroom and apply to jobs online.

I am a very lonely person. Some people like being alone, I don't. Facebook helps me feel less lonely, but not enough to help much. Usually my friends are busy, but when they're not I like to go do things with them. I like to help them move when they get a new apartment or something. I guess it's weird to like helping people move, but I get to see people I like and sometimes meet new people while I'm there being a good friend.

But 9 times out of 10 nobody is switching their residences. So I like to break the loneliness by going to movies or other places where there will be a crowd. Also, I can come up with ideas for activist things to do and then tell my activist friends about it and see if they want to start these projects or something. I keep up with local activism, it helps you feel not lonely, even if I do end up doing something that I consider dull, or just not ideal for someone with views like mine.

I also like jokes. You can get on YouTube and look at some of these people that make funny videos. Or you can try and be funny somewhere on the internet yourself, and maybe your friends will join in. I'm not exactly the best comedic playmaker, but if you set it up, even in a piss poor manner, I can play off of your lines. I can play off someone else's joke and make the conversation even more funny. But you need people to do that, so if you're lonely I guess that is out. But if you're lonely, but hanging out with friends you don't have much in common with, it's a great way to bond! Unless, of course, they have no sense of humor. Then you shouldn't hang out with them. Humorless people are bad people.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

I live in a fog of generalized dread too. I have been in one since I was in 8th grade. I would usually leave my bedroom though. But I can't find work, so I need to stay in my bedroom and apply to jobs online.

I am a very lonely person. Some people like being alone, I don't. Facebook helps me feel less lonely, but not enough to help much. Usually my friends are busy, but when they're not I like to go do things with them. I like to help them move when they get a new apartment or something. I guess it's weird to like helping people move, but I get to see people I like and sometimes meet new people while I'm there being a good friend.

But 9 times out of 10 nobody is switching their residences. So I like to break the loneliness by going to movies or other places where there will be a crowd. Also, I can come up with ideas for activist things to do and then tell my activist friends about it and see if they want to start these projects or something. I keep up with local activism, it helps you feel not lonely, even if I do end up doing something that I consider dull, or just not ideal for someone with views like mine.

I also like jokes. You can get on YouTube and look at some of these people that make funny videos. Or you can try and be funny somewhere on the internet yourself, and maybe your friends will join in. I'm not exactly the best comedic playmaker, but if you set it up, even in a piss poor manner, I can play off of your lines. I can play off someone else's joke and make the conversation even more funny. But you need people to do that, so if you're lonely I guess that is out. But if you're lonely, but hanging out with friends you don't have much in common with, it's a great way to bond! Unless, of course, they have no sense of humor. Then you shouldn't hang out with them. Humorless people are bad people.

I appreciate you writing this post. Just wanted you to know.

[consuming negativity]

Sounds like many of you could benefit from meaningful work and/or recreational drug use.

[Sand Castle]

I appreciate you writing this post. Just wanted you to know.

Why thank you.

It's always good when people create threads like this. It helps others feel less alone in their personal struggles.

I never really weighed in or gave much advice in the past, but as I get older I find myself doing more of it. I guess some people are new to these situations, but I'm not.

I know how to live like this. I can live like this. It's never easy. I don't want to. I really, really, really don't want to, and it gets very tough sometimes.

Work, on the other hand, I might need to read tons of self-help material. Not my fault.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Sounds like many of you could benefit from meaningful work and/or recreational drug use.

Fuck off on both those counts.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

Fuck off on both those counts.

I can understand meaningful work as a solution (routine to distract from it), but I wouldn't have even been able to do that as I would have needed the right mindset to start work...

As for drugs... hell no.

I'm feeling better now though, although that doesn't mean this thread should die off. Advice is good, this can be a repository.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

http://mypeacefulheart.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/robin-william-lonelyness.png

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

http://mypeacefulheart.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/robin-william-lonelyness.png

Brilliant. I'm saving that.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

How does the bedroom-dwelling coexist with a nightclub? I for one would never venture forth to such a repugnant den of sickening social interaction.

people ask me to go on nights out with them and out of obligation, guilt and a generalised hope that it might actually make me feel better, I go.

best case scenario I keep an adequate mask up all night and drink to the fine line between not caring and oblivion. I do this a few times a month, as of now I am yet to learn not to do it.

its not that I don't like or resent my friends or anything but what they like very often is not what I like, i'm one maladjusted loser in a medium-sized puddle of slightly less maladjusted non-losers.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

people ask me to go on nights out with them and out of obligation, guilt and a generalised hope that it might actually make me feel better, I go.

best case scenario I keep an adequate mask up all night and drink to the fine line between not caring and oblivion. I do this a few times a month, as of now I am yet to learn not to do it.

its not that I don't like or resent my friends or anything but what they like very often is not what I like, i'm one maladjusted loser in a medium-sized puddle of slightly less maladjusted non-losers.

Surely you have no obligation or any need for guilt? Would you mind giving a general overview of why you feel these things? General as in just an abstract view.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

obligation: I don't see my friends as much as I should also I am the king of making irrational decisions based on imaginary obligations

guilt: raised roman catholic it's a pavlovian response to literally everything ever

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

guilt: raised roman catholic it's a pavlovian response to literally everything ever

I was not raised religiously in the least, yet I invariably feel guilt about everything. After masturbation I am overcome with tremendous guilt and self-loathing.

Nevertheless, no one can manage to make me go outside, and I have long ago estranged all the "friends" (by which I mean loose half-loathed acquaintances from school) I ever had. This is true bedroom-living; or rather, living-room-dwelling, I suppose. The true hikikomori life-style.

It amuses me to think of my own failure at life & everything. If you can't do anything well, you can do well at not doing anything well, or something.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

I was not raised religiously in the least, yet I invariably feel guilt about everything. After masturbation I am overcome with tremendous guilt and self-loathing.

Nevertheless, no one can manage to make me go outside, and I have long ago estranged all the "friends" (by which I mean loose half-loathed acquaintances from school) I ever had. This is true bedroom-living; or rather, living-room-dwelling, I suppose. The true hikikomori life-style.

It amuses me to think of my own failure at life & everything. If you can't do anything well, you can do well at not doing anything well, or something.

That guilt comes from the Christian morality that we all still follow, even without the God behind it.

As for your mentioning of your "friends", I sympathise with you there.

[Rosa Partizan]

I used to be VERY lonely. I was that typical shy girl with good grades that almost everyone would find weird. Over the years, when I moved away from my parents and went to university, I opened up a lot more and got to know to many people, I had phases when I went out very regularly and it was fun, but somehow, I was still lonely, I just wasn't alone anymore, and that's when I learned the difference between these two words. 6-7 years ago, I met the people I'm still friends with, among them is my best friend, but also other people I like very much and consider great, reliable, warmhearted company. Now I'm kind of moody, sometimes I like to go out, chat in bars and coffeehouses like all the time and then there's almost always someone that has time to hang out with me. On the other hand, I have these phases where I need time for myself. Then I'm alone - but not lonely. Being alone by choice is a great thing for me. Some of the people I know from concerts or hanging out at the autonomous venue in the nearby town, they got very similar attitudes when it comes to politics and society, so this wouldn't represent any problem. However, it can be annoying from time to time. Many of my friends I know from university do a lot of creative stuff like acting or writing and every time they release something new you REALLY GOTTA COME ALONG AND SEE IT!!!!!!!1111 And sometimes I couldn't be bothered and wouldn't go, but sometimes I'm like, ok, let's do it for their sake. Anyway, don't get fooled by people with 700 FB-friends that seem to know everyone and that appear super popular and hang out at every party. Some of them are the loneliest people you could ever imagine.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

I used to be VERY lonely. I was that typical shy girl with good grades that almost everyone would find weird. Over the years, when I moved away from my parents and went to university, I opened up a lot more and got to know to many people, I had phases when I went out very regularly and it was fun, but somehow, I was still lonely, I just wasn't alone anymore, and that's when I learned the difference between these two words. 6-7 years ago, I met the people I'm still friends with, among them is my best friend, but also other people I like very much and consider great, reliable, warmhearted company. Now I'm kind of moody, sometimes I like to go out, chat in bars and coffeehouses like all the time and then there's almost always someone that has time to hang out with me. On the other hand, I have these phases where I need time for myself. Then I'm alone - but not lonely. Being alone by choice is a great thing for me. Some of the people I know from concerts or hanging out at the autonomous venue in the nearby town, they got very similar attitudes when it comes to politics and society, so this wouldn't represent any problem. However, it can be annoying from time to time. Many of my friends I know from university do a lot of creative stuff like acting or writing and every time they release something new you REALLY GOTTA COME ALONG AND SEE IT!!!!!!!1111 And sometimes I couldn't be bothered and wouldn't go, but sometimes I'm like, ok, let's do it for their sake. Anyway, don't get fooled by people with 700 FB-friends that seem to know everyone and that appear super popular and hang out at every party. Some of them are the loneliest people you could ever imagine.

Thanks for sharing this. Yes I definitely know what you mean about the FB users, that's something I think is really saddening.

[DOOM]

I always thought that Facebook's use of the word "friends" to describe the contacts is really morbid.
I guess everyone feels lonely every now and then. It's a really strange feeling and I hate to struggle with it.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

I always thought that Facebook's use of the word "friends" to describe the contacts is really morbid.
I guess everyone feels lonely every now and then. It's a really strange feeling and I hate to struggle with it.

It really is morbid and disgusting, to call someone who you contact while subjecting yourself to extreme alienation a "friend".

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Brilliant. I'm saving that.

It really changed my perspective on everything when I first read it and still does. I wrote it pretty on parchment and taped it to my mirror actually.

@Rosa, you're my German wife, you should never feel lonely my love.<333

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

I feel awfully sick because of loneliness at this moment. This'll probably wear off after a while but it's an absolutely horrible gut-wrenching feeling of pain. I feel as if this is a torture to be carried through with until the end of the holiday. :crying:

[Futility Personified]

Loneliness is a chicken and egg situation with mental health for me. Am I lonely because I have mental health issues, or do I have issues because I am lonely?

Loneliness often receives disparaging, disingenuous comparisons. Not fitting in, being different, these are supposed to be problems that rise and fall in your teenage years. I sometimes think that for those people who "just get on" and deal with it by being aggressively normal, in that they only indulge themselves culturally with what is offered them, not what they find for themselves and indeed actively reject anything that seems unpalatable are purposefully ignoring their own individual perception of the world, with all the hues and shades that eke out our tastes and desires, in order to preserve their mental health.

I suppose that is why it is "growing up", because it is self-preservation, it is what you . need to survive and be healthy.

I'd love to argue that this opens up a huge gateway to trouble later on, because the romantic idea that everyone is suffering inside and we all need a helping hand seems wonderful and troubling at the same time, but some people have either been bludgeoned or have twisted themselves into such dull cardboard cutouts of what they could've been so effectively that they do not notice it. It doesn't seem like suppression or repression. Their own desires have been eroded and replaced.

Life should be a riot, not a queue.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

Loneliness is a chicken and egg situation with mental health for me. Am I lonely because I have mental health issues, or do I have issues because I am lonely?

Loneliness often receives disparaging, disingenuous comparisons. Not fitting in, being different, these are supposed to be problems that rise and fall in your teenage years. I sometimes think that for those people who "just get on" and deal with it by being aggressively normal, in that they only indulge themselves culturally with what is offered them, not what they find for themselves and indeed actively reject anything that seems unpalatable are purposefully ignoring their own individual perception of the world, with all the hues and shades that eke out our tastes and desires, in order to preserve their mental health.

I suppose that is why it is "growing up", because it is self-preservation, it is what you . need to survive and be healthy.

I'd love to argue that this opens up a huge gateway to trouble later on, because the romantic idea that everyone is suffering inside and we all need a helping hand seems wonderful and troubling at the same time, but some people have either been bludgeoned or have twisted themselves into such dull cardboard cutouts of what they could've been so effectively that they do not notice it. It doesn't seem like suppression or repression. Their own desires have been eroded and replaced.

Life should be a riot, not a queue.

A profound and oddly familiar (e.g. Nietzsche) post. Thanks!

[bcbm]

It really is morbid and disgusting, to call someone who you contact while subjecting yourself to extreme alienation a "friend".

there are a lot of people i would have probably never talked to again if it were not for facebook. it has its problems certainly but it is also a fantastic tool for staying in touch with people.

[Ele'ill]

there are a lot of people i would have probably never talked to again if it were not for facebook. it has its problems certainly but it is also a fantastic tool for staying in touch with people.

Most of my core friends countable on one hand live on the other coast and have moved all over the place in a sometimes spontaneous manner. It is nice to be able to talk to them on the phone and then later sit and look at the pictures of their camping trip, their new house, their kids, etc.. and some of them update their interests and stuff regularly which is always fun and surprising when they've just watched the same movie as you or are reading the same book series. They aren't folks who I want to lose contact with ever and facebook is like another layer of protection against that.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

Most of my core friends countable on one hand live on the other coast and have moved all over the place in a sometimes spontaneous manner. It is nice to be able to talk to them on the phone and then later sit and look at the pictures of their camping trip, their new house, their kids, etc.. and some of them update their interests and stuff regularly which is always fun and surprising when they've just watched the same movie as you or are reading the same book series. They aren't folks who I want to lose contact with ever and facebook is like another layer of protection against that.

Yet it retains an undeniable contradiction that is extremely effective at maintaining the status quo. It atomises while unifying at the same time, on so many levels.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I kinda treat people part sales, part terminally I'll.

[Ele'ill]

Yet it retains an undeniable contradiction that is extremely effective at maintaining the status quo. It atomises while unifying at the same time, on so many levels.

aside from facebook being facebook just the general concept can keep folks in touch across entire continents, and the world, in almost real time, specifically the technology used for that like the internet, computers, apps/software that allow for video chat, it allows for communication that otherwise would not be possible. I use social networking mainly as a photo album where probably 80% of the photos are in hidden albums only accessible to me with the rest being an assortment of stuff I find on the net and cell phone self shots I like. I move/am displaced often enough since I hit early teens that most of the childhood and friend photos would have been long since lost. There is the argument about why we need photos but I think that is a criticism (and weak one) of why photography is a thing and why we appreciate that, the internet and social networking sites are not photography but they do facilitate some aspects of it.

[bcbm]

Yet it retains an undeniable contradiction that is extremely effective at maintaining the status quo. It atomises while unifying at the same time, on so many levels.

the status quo wasnt having much trouble before facebook. whether we're sitting in front of the computer or in front of the tv or in front of the bar i think its much bigger forces that keep us paralyzed and alienated

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

the status quo wasnt having much trouble before facebook. whether we're sitting in front of the computer or in front of the tv or in front of the bar i think its much bigger forces that keep us paralyzed and alienated


No one gives a fuck about the status quo not having trouble before. It's what is happening now that matters. Facebook contributes to social atomisation and it needs looking at just as much as these mysterious "bigger forces" that you mention.

[bcbm]

No one gives a fuck about the status quo not having trouble before. It's what is happening now that matters.

this is a silly attitude, as though what happened before bears no relation on what is happening now.


Facebook contributes to social atomisation and it needs looking at just as much as these mysterious "bigger forces" that you mention. or is facebook just a symptom of social atomization? maybe because we are crammed into dreary jobs and dreary apartment complexes and dreary cities we look for any solace we can get? this is where something like 'studying what has happened before' might be useful, to look at trends and how our current social composition was created.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

this is a silly attitude, as though what happened before bears no relation on what is happening now.

or is facebook just a symptom of social atomization? maybe because we are crammed into dreary jobs and dreary apartment complexes and dreary cities we look for any solace we can get? this is where something like 'studying what has happened before' might be useful, to look at trends and how our current social composition was created.

You've misunderstood all that I've said. I'm trying to emphasise the importance of grounding ourselves in the here and now.

Yes it is extremely helpful to see why these things have developed and from where they came from, I'm not ignorant of that at all, but at the same time a lot of that research ends up conjuring "castles in the air" that don't provide answers but only more questions until eventually they get so heavy that they topple. A constant reinforcement of the importance of there here-and-now is necessary to not get stuck in explanations that are marooned in another era, like a lot of Marxist thought for example.

Struggle operates differently in this society and I can tell that by comparison with the labour movement of the last century, yet I don't get bogged down in chicken and egg arguments, I just resolve them by stating that things developed at the same time.

Facebook didn't preceed or come after social atomisation, it is social atomisation (in countries with a strong cultural hegemony). The act of participating in it is the silent assent of its unity-through-separation, its splitting up of reality to make a new reality that caters for even the most radical ideas, it recuperates them extremely quickly. It's not a passive form of control but an active one that becomes a reality in itself like a virtual game that at once is your reality when you get drawn into it, and is part of your reality by showcasing a separate environment with simple rules that can be traced to everyday life. Worst of all, you have to engage in it because it is becoming/it is a fully integrated part of society. It is at once a cure to loneliness and a cause of loneliness where everyone becomes a mere representation of themselves, forced to interact in less sensual ways.

[Connolly1916]

people ask me to go on nights out with them and out of obligation, guilt and a generalised hope that it might actually make me feel better, I go.

best case scenario I keep an adequate mask up all night and drink to the fine line between not caring and oblivion. I do this a few times a month, as of now I am yet to learn not to do it.

its not that I don't like or resent my friends or anything but what they like very often is not what I like, i'm one maladjusted loser in a medium-sized puddle of slightly less maladjusted non-losers.

I've been there. Don't keep it up, but me telling you that probably won't change your mind. It's something you realise for yourself for whatever reason. You probably need to find new circles to move in, new outlets for your thoughts and so on.

(Also, this is not me saying 'I was an alcoholic, you need to stop drinking' or anything drastic like that. I still drink, pretty often, but only a few beers and more for the purpose of socialising than as a remedy for my frustration. It's all about how you drink, and why. And a little bit of what you drink too!).

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

the worst moments are those moments of surreal clarity at parties or something when you're standing there with a drink and someone is talking at you or something and suddenly you just feel detached like there's a camera shot panning out from the back of your head. Its that feeling of unreality and utter, being-destroying emptiness that does it for me. sure I can get used to just feeling out of place and like I shouldn't be somewhere, but every time I get like this and start feeling like i'm actually not there it properly freaks me out. Idk how many places I've been where I've just bugged out and left, sometimes mid-conversation, without saying a word.

[TheFox]

I'm lonely a lot, but I don't mind. I work better and faster alone.
I have a girlfriend and a few friends but I still feel lonely.
It's just how I am. :)

[Ele'ill]

You've misunderstood all that I've said. I'm trying to emphasise the importance of grounding ourselves in the here and now.

Yes it is extremely helpful to see why these things have developed and from where they came from, I'm not ignorant of that at all, but at the same time a lot of that research ends up conjuring "castles in the air" that don't provide answers but only more questions until eventually they get so heavy that they topple. A constant reinforcement of the importance of there here-and-now is necessary to not get stuck in explanations that are marooned in another era, like a lot of Marxist thought for example.

Struggle operates differently in this society and I can tell that by comparison with the labour movement of the last century, yet I don't get bogged down in chicken and egg arguments, I just resolve them by stating that things developed at the same time.

Facebook didn't preceed or come after social atomisation, it is social atomisation (in countries with a strong cultural hegemony). The act of participating in it is the silent assent of its unity-through-separation, its splitting up of reality to make a new reality that caters for even the most radical ideas, it recuperates them extremely quickly. It's not a passive form of control but an active one that becomes a reality in itself like a virtual game that at once is your reality when you get drawn into it, and is part of your reality by showcasing a separate environment with simple rules that can be traced to everyday life. Worst of all, you have to engage in it because it is becoming/it is a fully integrated part of society. It is at once a cure to loneliness and a cause of loneliness where everyone becomes a mere representation of themselves, forced to interact in less sensual ways.


But I strongly suspect that if there ever will be a revolution, that we could tentatively agree on as desirable for arguments sake, that the concept of facebook and other things would explode in new and creative ways regardless of what other social developments and changes in social interaction within society happens. I don't have a social network problem it just has never been my cup of tea regarding isolation and what not. I have very few coworkers as friends and usually don't give out my fb info, never really did any of that with school folks either except for a few who I thought were pretty cool who I still talk to today. I do hear a lot of moaning about video games being isolating and stuff but there is no other way several people can get together and control a virtual world sometimes mirroring our own in realism sometimes less so, to solve puzzles and problem solve. It is a really brilliant thing and I don't think its any different for this arguments sake than someone sitting down and reading a lot of books/texts or whatever other options there are.