Living under communism

[bad-juju]

Hi, I'm new to these boards, and I was wondering how many of you have, actually, lived in a country that has been liberated by Che Guevara or any of his ideologies, so to speak? Or how many of you have lived in a communist country, is a better way to phrase that. And when I say "live" I don't mean "traveled to during your Senior year to expand your horizons." I mean, live in a communist country for more than five conscious years, grow up in one, or live in one now.

Thank you

Bad Juju

[JasonR]

No I unfortunately have lived in America all my life. However, I kjnow people that were born in soviet Armenia and Soviet Ukraine, they say it wasn't bad at all from what they remember, that capitalism is a lot worse. Before they atleast had products at a cheap price, now they have ridiculous inflations that make basic things like food and milk almost unreachable. Many are also unemployed and have shameful pensions compared to the old soviet times.

Although USSR wasn't the best thing that could happen, it certainly is better than the capitalism they have now. Maybe you, a Cuiban right-winger, will see what happens to Cuba after you force your "freedom and democracy" on the Cuban peoples. They will resist, like the people in IRaq, but the yankees have tanks and missiles.

[bad-juju]

Oh, I agree with you, there. Capitalism in countries that have communist is a disaster. But why do you think that is?

Bad Juju

[BuyOurEverything]

Oh, I agree with you, there. Capitalism in countries that have communist is a disaster. But why do you think that is?

I assume you mean formerly socialist countries. It depends on how the transition takes place. In Russia, for example, the rapid transition allowed a few people to buy up vast ammounts of resources for extremely cheap prices. This instantly creates a huge gap between the rich and the poor. There are a few other reasons too but I'd like to hear what your opinion is.

[TC]

Eh, Che only liberated one country, his other attempts failed. You might say that Fidel liberated more though, indirectly.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

he tried to liberate Guyana, after America installed Burnham as dictator there. In my opinion, Burnham messed that country up too much...turned ppl against each other...

At least Che spoke on our behalf to the UN...which is a good thing. :).

[JasonR]

Youd think a person that lived in Cuba for so long like this person claims would know Cuba is socialist, not communist.

[heynow]

Cuba is a communist country.

It's, like, the second-to-last communist country left, after China, isn't it?

And it's also Stalinist communism.

I'm not attacking Cuba, I'm asking questions.

I think the term "socialist" is more appropriately applied in some of the African countries, and of course, Canada and Great Britain.

And really now JasonR, why are you attacking bad-juju and calling her names like "a Cuiban (sic) right-winger" when she hasn't really said anything that demonstrates a "right wing" perspective?

[DeadMan]

Vietnam, Loas (I think), Cambodia (I think) and alot of the southern asia is communist. North Korea aswell. And central america has a high communist count, but unfortunatly the US is making sure they don't get in power.

DeadMan.

[bad-juju]

Jason R, Cuba is a military dictatorship! Why does a socialist county need a political police? And don't tell me there's no political police. You haven't lived there. You don't know.

Bad Juju

[bad-juju]

Heynow, Jason R is attacking me because he's jealous that he didn't get to live in Cuba and pick potatoes when he was 12. He does say it's unfortunate that he lives in America. Do you want to switch places with my cousin, Jason R? He says he's tired of being persecuted at work for having long hair.

Bad Juju

[ChaosMonkey]

I'd like to thank whoever moved this thread for proving Bad-juju's point. She grew up in a military dictatorship that shot and killed those who disagreed with it, and this is fairly close to the equivalent of that here, yeah?

Because if you think this thread doesn't have EVERYTHING to do with Che, you're sadly fucking mistaken.

Her stories don't jibe with what you think of the man? You're a bunch of apologists who wouldn't last a minute in Castro's Cuba. None of this "I agree with Che, except A, B, and C," because you'd be done away with before taking in the breath to say what A is.

So, in conclusion, thanks again.

[bad-juju]

Thank you, ChaosMonkey! This is what I mean when I say communists and nazis are the same thing! You guys would fit in Cuba beautifully!

Bad Juju

[Stapler]

The reason the people of Cuba live in comparably unbearble poverty, is that the Cuban government refused to allow American interests to hold sway over their government, control their natural resources (which are property of the people of Cuba not American buisnessmen), as happened in other North American countries (my country of Canada, where 90% of all oil is property of Americans, according to NAFTA), and exploit the working classes, and force them to grow cash crops for american consumers. In Cuba, people live well compared to the rest of latin america (Guatemala, Nicaragua, etc...) Those potatoes went to feed Cubans not Americans. Cuba would we an affluent, developed nation, if it were not for the inhumane embargoes that the United States have placed upon them.

[synthesis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 09:16 PM
Cuba is a communist country.
No, it's not. It can be defined as a socialist country (though some would disagree), and it is run by a communist party. It's silly that this has to be said, but communism is a global society, without nations.


It's, like, the second-to-last communist country left, after China, isn't it?

China is capitalist.


I think the term "socialist" is more appropriately applied in some of the African countries, and of course, Canada and Great Britain.

Yeah, Britain - a real dictatorship of the proletariat :rolleyes:


Jason R, Cuba is a military dictatorship! Why does a socialist county need a political police? And don't tell me there's no political police. You haven't lived there. You don't know.

For suppression of class enemies. I don't think anyone here actually claims that there are no political police. That would be far too Orwellian.


He says he's tired of being persecuted at work for having long hair.

When he has corporate death squads slaughtering his compadres for trying to unionize simply for subsistence wages, then we'll talk. As far I can go from the facts I have on hand, Cuba is better to its disenfranchised than any other country in Latin America.


I'd like to thank whoever moved this thread for proving Bad-juju's point.

Yeah, because Internet fuckery is really the same as political oppression, isn't it?


Her stories don't jibe with what you think of the man? You're a bunch of apologists who wouldn't last a minute in Castro's Cuba.

It doesn't matter. You don't have to support Castro 100% to know that Cubans are much better off under his government than they would be if Cuba was still capitalist. That's the important issue here.

I think people are far too willing to compare the conditions of Cuba to that of the industrialized countries when that kind of comparison isn't really fair at all. Cuba has been independant from colonial rule for half the time America has, independant from economic imperialism for a quarter the time America has, and never once has it been free from terrorist attacks, bombings, assassinations, sanctions, embargoes, isolation, and full-scale military invasion.


Thank you, ChaosMonkey! This is what I mean when I say communists and nazis are the same thing! You guys would fit in Cuba beautifully!

The funny thing is that you just contradicted what ChaosMonkey claimed.

[bad-juju]

The reason the people of Cuba live in comparably unbearble poverty, is that the Cuban government refused to allow American interests to hold sway over their government, control their natural resources (which are property of the people of Cuba not American buisnessmen), as happened in other North American countries (my country of Canada, where 90% of all oil is property of Americans, according to NAFTA), and exploit the working classes, and force them to grow cash crops for american consumers. In Cuba, people live well compared to the rest of latin america (Guatemala, Nicaragua, etc...) Those potatoes went to feed Cubans not Americans. Cuba would we an affluent, developed nation, if it were not for the inhumane embargoes that the United States have placed upon them.

Dear Mr Stapler: Would you have twelve year old children pick those potatoes? I had to pick potatoes as a child, and I didn't get paid. That was mostly my point. Do you work for free? Did you work as a child? I didn't want to have to pick potatoes. Have you ever lived in Cuba?

So, Cuba should never take anything from the US, but the US should remove the embargo...hm. Once again, I'd like to thank Castro for providing with an education that doesn't allow for logical mistakes.

[bad-juju]

DyerMaker:

ChaosMonkey has never lived in Cuba. And you are petty and unimaginative. I'm so sad for you.

Bad Juju

Ps. My cousin is a Thermonuclear engineer, and he makes the equivalent of 12 american dollars. That seems pretty unfair to me. He was kicked out of work for having long hair, and then put in jail for protesting about it. He was there for 14 weeks, and he was never fed. Unionizing is illegal in Cuba, and it can cost you your life. That's not to say that they don't try. He now belongs to a peaceful anti-Castor group mostly populated by professionals that have been kicked out of work for not agreeing with government practices.

Hm, Death squads. What are you doing about these Death Squads, DyerMaker?

[bad-juju]

DyerMaker, you said:

"For suppression of class enemies" as refering to why Cuba has a political police. I don't understand what you mean. Please, clarify.

Thanks

Bad Juju

[bad-juju]

Hm. No one has actually answered my question. :huh:

[Stapler]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 10:36 PM
Would you have twelve year old children pick those potatoes? I had to pick potatoes as a child, and I didn't get paid. That was mostly my point. Do you work for free? Did you work as a child? I didn't want to have to pick potatoes. Have you ever lived in Cuba?

And how is that different from the capitalist run farms in Mexico, and Guatemala? There are plenty children with worse situations there than i'm sure you experienced as a child. I can see that you're literate, I imagine that you have both your legs, and I can only speculate as to wether you had a child at the age of 10.

[LSD]

Bad-Juju, ChaosMonkey, etc....

What, exactly, is the point of this thread??

If it is to say that the Cuban revolution hurt the Cuban people, than you really have to compare present day Cuba with the Cuba of 50 years ago. Comparing Cuba with the United States or any first world country is pointless.

If it is to say that Communism as an ideology is faulty, than you really need to provide more evidence than The Amazing Adventurs of Bad-Juju's Cousin.

Telling stories is always fun, but if you're trying to make a point, that isn't the way to do it.
If you have some evidence to back up your assertations, pretent it.

Otherwise, sod off.

[synthesis]

You know, you don't have to make two new posts to respond to two points in my one post. There is an "edit" button.


ChaosMonkey has never lived in Cuba. And you are petty and unimaginative. I'm so sad for you.

I'm confused as to where "unimaginative" came from.


My cousin is a Thermonuclear engineer, and he makes the equivalent of 12 american dollars. That seems pretty unfair to me.

Per hour?


He was kicked out of work for having long hair, and then put in jail for protesting about it.

Nothing you said would ever implicate a punishment as harsh as you have described. So just to clarify: your brother was fired and incarcerated for over three months for having long hair? That seems a little far-fetched to me.


He was there for 14 weeks, and he was never fed.

What did he eat?


Unionizing is illegal in Cuba, and it can cost you your life.

This is one of the direct derivatives of Leninism. I don't like it at all. But proletarian agitation is also illegal in many capitalist countries, and they are simply assembling for the ability to survive. Workers in Cuba are at least fed, clothed, and educated.


Hm, Death squads. What are you doing about these Death Squads, DyerMaker?

What are you doing about Castro?

Complaining about him on internet messageboards, and joining organizations which oppose him. What more is there to do?


"For suppression of class enemies" as refering to why Cuba has a political police. I don't understand what you mean. Please, clarify.

OK. As I said above, Cuba's closest neighbor has subjected her to more than forty years of terrorist attacks, bombings, assassinations, sanctions, embargoes, isolation, and full-scale military invasion. If Castro had allowed his enemies to freely organize, communicate, and agitate, he would have been dead in months.

It's a sad case of idealism versus reality. It would have been nice if Castro had given Cubans everything Batista didn't - both political freedom and economic security - but if he allowed the former, both it and the latter would have been doomed.

Basically, it was unfortunate that Castro had to defend the revolution by any means necessary.

[bad-juju]

I absolutely quit this! The only response anyone in these boards has is, "that happens everywhere else!" That is so fucking sophomoric! That is not an excuse. That's the most unimaginative thing you could say! IT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN ANYWHERE! What do you do to prevent child labor, besides sit at your computer all day, and offend people you don't know? You don't know a thing about me. You don't know what happened to me, or the other children that worked those fields. You are just assuming that I'm just a whiny bastard, because I disagree with you. And that makes you and immature fuck! And the only reason you care about Mexican children is you are suffering from middle-class, white man guilt. I suggest you move down to Mexico, and take the place of one of those children. Or that you go to Cuba and do the same. And don't speak about my life like you know me, because I could make your pampered Canadian hairs stand with the stories I could tell you about my childhood, or the childhood of many kids in Cuba.

Bad Juju

[bad-juju]

DyerMaker

"Per hour?"

Hahaha. Per month!

Bad Juju

[synthesis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 11:14 PM
I absolutely quit this!
Dosividaniya. By the way, an emotional breakdown is no substitute for an argument.

[bad-juju]

"If it is to say that Communism as an ideology is faulty, than you really need to provide more evidence than The Amazing Adventurs of Bad-Juju's Cousin."

The point of the thread is on the first post. I have no idea how it got to this point, but some of the world's greatest writers use stories to make points. All I have are personal stories from my family and friends. I'm sorry I have no videotape. I definitely do not need validation from a rude loser with a Simon Cowell complex.


Bad juju

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 06:12 PM

He was kicked out of work for having long hair, and then put in jail for protesting about it.

Nothing you said would ever implicate a punishment as harsh as you have described. So just to clarify: your brother was fired and incarcerated for over three months for having long hair? That seems a little far-fetched to me.
Remember back when Castro sent "punks" and homosexuals to work camps?!

Until very recently, you could be sent to a camp or jailed just for having dyed (or long) hair.

[bad-juju]

DyerMaker:

My cousin ate the food his wife was allowed to take him once a week. But the jail provided no food. And regarding your previous quotes, I sure as hell don't need your validation either.

Oh, there is a intrinsic part of Leninism you don't like? I recommend you don't live in Cuba.

Bad juju

[bad-juju]

"What are you doing about Castro?

Complaining about him on internet messageboards, and joining organizations which oppose him. What more is there to do?"

You didn't answer my question ;)

What else is there to do? How about economical and humanitarian support to those who need it? People are not numbers in your political agenda.

I wonder what you would do without those death squads to complain about.

Bad juju

[synthesis]

All I have are personal stories from my family and friends. I'm sorry I have no videotape. I definitely do not need validation from a rude loser with a Simon Cowell complex.

That's OK, but just don't expect to convince anyone with that kind of stuff, especially when you could have easily made it up.

In other words, stories are alright, but not in the complete absense of real substance in your arguments.


And regarding your previous quotes, I sure as hell don't need your validation either.

What were you expecting would happen, ma'am? That we'd all renounce our entire ideology upon hearing your sacred words?

Sorry. My mind can only be changed through logic, factual evidence, and rational arguments.


Oh, there is a intrinsic part of Leninism you don't like?

I dislike all of it.


Remember back when Castro sent "punks" and homosexuals to work camps?!

I was under the impression that he still did that. Pretty abhorrent stuff, really.


Until very recently, you could be sent to a camp or jailed just for having dyed (or long) hair.

I have long hair, and I like having it, so the idea of that is pretty intimidating. But restrictions on the lengths of one's hair does not cancel the benefits of the revolution.


You didn't answer my question

Yes, I did. I discuss the problem with people who want to hear about it and I join organizations which share my ideas as to what to do about it. I just generally try to increase awareness of the problem at hand with everyone who will hear me out.


How about economical and humanitarian support to those who need it?

Oh, come on. I do donate money to social causes, but no amount of wealth that I could provide would ever make any difference as to the prominence of corporate death squads.


I wonder what you would do without those death squads to complain about.

I would increase awareness of other problems of capitalism, as I do already.

[Stapler]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 11:14 PM
I absolutely quit this! The only response anyone in these boards has is, "that happens everywhere else!" That is so fucking sophomoric! That is not an excuse. That's the most unimaginative thing you could say! IT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN ANYWHERE! What do you do to prevent child labor, besides sit at your computer all day, and offend people you don't know? You don't know a thing about me. You don't know what happened to me, or the other children that worked those fields. You are just assuming that I'm just a whiny bastard, because I disagree with you. And that makes you and immature fuck! And the only reason you care about Mexican children is you are suffering from middle-class, white man guilt. I suggest you move down to Mexico, and take the place of one of those children. Or that you go to Cuba and do the same. And don't speak about my life like you know me, because I could make your pampered Canadian hairs stand with the stories I could tell you about my childhood, or the childhood of many kids in Cuba.

Bad Juju
Okay, the point is; Why blame socialism?

[LSD]

Ok, look.

Cuba isn't perfect.
Cuba isn't close to perfect.
Cuba is a very long way from being perfect.

But....

The average worker in Cuba is still better off than the average third world worker under capitalism.
That's the point.

If you can disprove that or provide compelling evidence to disregard that, I'm all ears.
You haven't done that, and it is becomming less and less likely that you every will.

[Ortega]

But life for an average person in Cuba is far worse than life for an average person in any other Latin American country, whether or not the working conditions and/or healthcare system are better.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 06:40 PM
DyerMaker:

ChaosMonkey has never lived in Cuba. And you are petty and unimaginative. I'm so sad for you.

Bad Juju

Ps. My cousin is a Thermonuclear engineer, and he makes the equivalent of 12 american dollars. That seems pretty unfair to me. He was kicked out of work for having long hair, and then put in jail for protesting about it. He was there for 14 weeks, and he was never fed. Unionizing is illegal in Cuba, and it can cost you your life. That's not to say that they don't try. He now belongs to a peaceful anti-Castor group mostly populated by professionals that have been kicked out of work for not agreeing with government practices.

Hm, Death squads. What are you doing about these Death Squads, DyerMaker?
1. 12 dollars goes a long way when you dont have to pay for medicine, food, housing, or education
2. There is a certain degree of job protection in Cuba. You cannot be fired without a good reason, and I don't know what the hell a thermonuclear engineer is doing in Cuba, unless they have a secret H-Bomb program, in which case, he couldn't be fired for anything short of dropping a nuke, in which case, he probably wouldn't be worring about his job.
3. If he was put in jail, then the "protesting" was definately more then simply arguing about it
4. Peaceful Anti-Castro groups, perhaps we should make peace with the peaceful Al-Queda?
Your story has more holes then an over-fermented block of swiss cheese.

[ChaosMonkey]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 06:12 PM
It's a sad case of idealism versus reality.
Isn't it, though?

Every story Bad-juju tells is true. Every story is evidence. Every story her father, mother, sister, grandmother, aunts, uncles, cousins. and friends tell is true. And really, we can call them stories, but that's not accurate. The are lives, and the fact that you question it, the fact that you can't see it as "evidence," is utterly shameful. Things are bad everywhere, is the cry you all keep falling back on. If someone came here from the untouchable class in India, would you question him or her for leaving? Would you ask for "evidence"? Or would you just be happy to see another human being alive?

Also: No one's blaming socialism. Cuba is not socialist. Cuba is Castroist. Period. It's his playground, and, just like most of you here, this is all just ideas, words, and numbers on paper to him. He doesn't care, and neither do any of you. If it supports your theology to ignore Bad-juju's stories, fine. It's the same thing Castro does, and I know how much you like him.

There's no sense here of what real people go through. One person tells a few stories that go against your idea of what Castro has done in Cuba, but you want "evidence" and "reports" and blah blah blah. I'd wager Bad-juju is the first Cuban to actually post on there boards.

So, the question stands: Do any of you live in a "Communist" country? Have you ever? I know I haven't, and I'm not the only one on this thread, either.

[Ortega]

ChaosMonkey, I was just about to say pretty much what you've just said.

So I'll echo your opinions...

[Stapler]

A) What evidence is there to suggest that quality of life is worse in Cuba than any other Latin American country, from my experience ist is not.
B) Why is Cuba, full of literate, healthy people looked down on as a nation, when governments like those in South Africa, and Colombia exist?

[synthesis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 11:43 PM
But life for an average person in Cuba is far worse than life for an average person in any other Latin American country, whether or not the working conditions and/or healthcare system are better.
Wow, that isn't true at all. Cubans have far longer life expectancies and much lower infant mortality rates than most other countries in Latin America, not to mention an impressive education system and a remarkable doctor-to-patient ratio.


Every story Bad-juju tells is true.

Uh, by what standard?

Just because she says they are true, does not mean it is so.


One person tells a few stories that go against your idea of what Castro has done in Cuba,

They don't go against my idea of what has happened in Cuba. I just can't bring myself to be morally outraged against what Castro has done when there are not only infinitely worse atrocities being committed, but also when he has accomplished some very impressive things for Cuba.


but you want "evidence" and "reports" and blah blah blah.

How unreasonable :rolleyes:

[Ortega]

Originally posted by DyerMaker+Feb 1 2004, 07:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DyerMaker @ Feb 1 2004, 07:05 PM)
[email protected] 1 2004, 11:43 PM
But life for an average person in Cuba is far worse than life for an average person in any other Latin American country, whether or not the working conditions and/or healthcare system are better.
Wow, that isn&#39;t true at all. Cubans have far longer life expectancies and much lower infant mortality rates than most other countries in Latin America, not to mention an impressive education system and a remarkable doctor-to-patient ratio. [/b]
Longer life expectancies, lower infant mortality rates, an impressive education system, and a remarkable doctor-to-patient ratio - those are all services of the government. They sound good, and make certain areas of Cuban life good, but in terms of happiness and in terms of the quality day-to-day life, any Latin American country could beat Cuba.

[Stapler]

11 year old boys huffing glue in Guatemala City streets... ...high quality of life if you ask me.

[synthesis]

Longer life expectancies, lower infant mortality rates, an impressive education system, and a remarkable doctor-to-patient ratio - those are all services of the government. They sound good, and make certain areas of Cuban life good, but in terms of happiness and in terms of the quality day-to-day life, any Latin American country could beat Cuba.

That is quite possibly the vaguest argument I&#39;ve ever heard.

[LSD]

Every story Bad-juju tells is true. Every story is evidence. Every story her father, mother, sister, grandmother, aunts, uncles, cousins. and friends tell is true. And really, we can call them stories, but that&#39;s not accurate.

And I&#39;m supposed to what, take your word for it?
Sorry, but we&#39;ve only just met


There&#39;s no sense here of what real people go through. One person tells a few stories that go against your idea of what Castro has done in Cuba, but you want "evidence" and "reports" and blah blah blah.

Look at it from the other perspective.
What if I were to tell you that the US is evil, because when I was a small child George Bush and Donal Rumsfeld gangraped me. Wouldn&#39;t you want SOME evidence before you took my word???

Logic. Know it, Use it.



Things are bad everywhere, is the cry you all keep falling back on. If someone came here from the untouchable class in India, would you question him or her for leaving? Would you ask for "evidence"? Or would you just be happy to see another human being alive?

What??? What are you talking about???

You come here, make blatant and unfounded assertations based entirely on anecdotes and somehow we&#39;re immoral for not immediately trusting that everything you say is the truth&#33;&#33;&#33;

Not only are things bad everywhere, but things are worse everywhere.
And I am not defending Castro because he has dones some indefensible things, but I&#39;m unable to get as emotional about it as you because I realizes that yes, "things are bad everywhere" and yes capitalism has done far worse things.

Now, if you actually have something coherent to say, please do.



but in terms of happiness and in terms of the quality day-to-day life, any Latin American country could beat Cuba.

so they....without.....and....with....but not.......WHAT????

You&#39;re going to have to clarify that one.

[bunnerabb]

A) What evidence is there to suggest that quality of life is worse in Cuba than any other Latin American country, from my experience ist is not.

Yeah&#33; I mean, that&#39;s always my ground zero criteria for where I want to live out the blink-of-an-eye handful of moments that I have been allotted in this vale of tears.. "Is it not any shittier than other shitty places?"


B) Why is Cuba, full of literate, healthy people looked down on as a nation, when governments like those in South Africa, and Colombia exist?

Because they&#39;re literate, healthy people in a hamster cage with a broke-ass water bottle and dirty litter. It&#39;s called being the "King of Nothing."

As far as those other corrupt governments... Simple: People are getting paid. There&#39;s nothing inherently wrong with people getting paid, mind you, it&#39;s just that people with access to largesse with no supervision often steal. This is called greed.

Communism isn&#39;t the problem.
Socialism isn&#39;t the problem.
Capitalism isn&#39;t the problem.
Greed and vanity are the problems.

The rest of this shit is just kids arguing about the best way to obtain and divide a bag of candy. The answer is always: "Equally."

All of this barking about ostensibly lofty constructs of social order is a piss up a rope.

Don&#39;t hurt people. Don&#39;t steal. Share. Hold hands when you cross the street. Problems solved.

So.. back to politics: "Don&#39;t hurt people. Don&#39;t steal. Share. Hold hands when you cross the street." You go first.

See?

[LSD]

Yeah&#33; I mean, that&#39;s always my ground zero criteria for where I want to live out the blink-of-an-eye handful of moments that I have been allotted in this vale of tears.. "Is it not any shittier than other shitty places?"

Actually yes it is.
You may not normally frame it in those terms, but better really only means "less shittier" than something else.


Because they&#39;re literate, healthy people in a hamster cage with a broke-ass water bottle and dirty litter. It&#39;s called being the "King of Nothing."

At least they&#39;re "literate, healthy people", the rest of Latin America is in the same damn cage, but they don&#39;t have any food.
Of course, Cuba could be better. Cuba could be A LOT better. But then so could the rest of the region....


As far as those other corrupt governments... Simple: People are getting paid. There&#39;s nothing inherently wrong with people getting paid, mind you, it&#39;s just that people with access to largesse with no supervision often steal. This is called greed.

Greed is essential to capitalism. Capitalism is based on greed.
Never forget this.


All of this barking about ostensibly lofty constructs of social order is a piss up a rope.

Brilliant&#33;
Drown all the philosophers&#33;&#33;&#33;

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 07:19 PM
Because they&#39;re literate, healthy people in a hamster cage with a broke-ass water bottle and dirty litter. It&#39;s called being the "King of Nothing."
That sums my argument up well enough...

...people in Cuba aren&#39;t happy, no matter how literate or healthy they are. Just ask Bad Juju.

[Regicidal Insomniac]

I&#39;ve spent a good portion of my life in China... despite Chinese Communism being an absolute joke, it was alright.

What was much worse was living in capitalist India.

Here in Canada I&#39;ve been threatened with expultion from my school for having long hair, and lots of people I know have had to cut their hair short to get a job or have been refused employement or fired for it. It seems to be stigma all around, as silly as it is...

[Ortega]

Originally posted by Regicidal [email protected] 1 2004, 07:27 PM
Here in Canada I&#39;ve been threatened with expultion from my school for having long hair, and lots of people I know have had to cut their hair short to get a job or have been refused employement or fired for it. It seems to be stigma all around, as silly as it is...
:blink:

We don&#39;t experience that sort of thing in the States...

[bunnerabb]

I have nothing against philosophy, despite your sweeping indictment of what I didn&#39;t say.

Just don&#39;t tell me that it&#39;s the centre of the universe until the philosophers put down their weighty tomes, get their asses out of their club chairs and you know.. DO something.

This isn&#39;t a discussion, it&#39;s trolling and sniping. Obviously. Would any of you amateur pedants care to pick up a shovel or a spool of wire or some pots and pans and actually.. DO something?

Sticking up for Castro is like sticking up for dryer lint. It&#39;s old, useless, dried up, doesn&#39;t do anything except stop progress but hey... it&#39;s already there. Nobody wants to attack Cuba. Nobody wants to invade Cuba. Nobody gives a good Goddamn about Cuba except that it&#39;s people are living out their stilted, meager exsistances under a shitstorm of useless ideas.

Unlike me. Or... despite what what one might gather from these pro-Castro posts, anybody else on this board saying "It&#39;s not that bad&#33;"

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by Ortega+Feb 2 2004, 12:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ortega @ Feb 2 2004, 12:31 AM)
Regicidal [email protected] 1 2004, 07:27 PM
Here in Canada I&#39;ve been threatened with expultion from my school for having long hair, and lots of people I know have had to cut their hair short to get a job or have been refused employement or fired for it. It seems to be stigma all around, as silly as it is...
:blink:

We don&#39;t experience that sort of thing in the States... [/b]
WRONG&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

IF you are blacka nd wear your hair "natural" ie in a an afro or dreadlocks, or any style where your hair isn&#39;t cut, or in a woman&#39;s case straightened, you may not get a job, and in some places can be fired.

Which means if I ever want to get a job above minimum wage I have to cut my locks

And it&#39;s total bullshit because how come white people can have their hair natural, by these rules they should have to make their hair curly to get a job.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by Lardlad95+Feb 1 2004, 07:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lardlad95 @ Feb 1 2004, 07:36 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 12:31 AM

Regicidal [email protected] 1 2004, 07:27 PM
Here in Canada I&#39;ve been threatened with expultion from my school for having long hair, and lots of people I know have had to cut their hair short to get a job or have been refused employement or fired for it. It seems to be stigma all around, as silly as it is...
:blink:

We don&#39;t experience that sort of thing in the States...
WRONG&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

IF you are blacka nd wear your hair "natural" ie in a an afro or dreadlocks, or any style where your hair isn&#39;t cut, or in a woman&#39;s case straightened, you may not get a job, and in some places can be fired.

Which means if I ever want to get a job above minimum wage I have to cut my locks

And it&#39;s total bullshit because how come white people can have their hair natural, by these rules they should have to make their hair curly to get a job. [/b]
For blacks, there are definetly problems.

But as a white, I would have no problems if I were to have long hair.

I hate being a white American sometimes. It makes me feel like such a racist rich cappie...

[synthesis]

Because they&#39;re literate, healthy people in a hamster cage with a broke-ass water bottle and dirty litter. It&#39;s called being the "King of Nothing."

What do you suggest should be done?


...people in Cuba aren&#39;t happy, no matter how literate or healthy they are. Just ask Bad Juju.

Of course, bad-Juju speaks for all Cubans.

Read. http://www.marxmail.org/facts/cuba_gallup.htm


I have nothing against philosophy, despite .....

Never has so little taken up so much space.

[bunnerabb]

by the way, capitalism isn&#39;t based on greed, regardless of that crap Michael Douglass film&#39;s scriptwriting. aIt&#39;s based on simple economic prioncipals like supply and demand, investment returns and opportunities of the free market.

Greed is the negative aspect of it. And most other things, including socialism.

This is pretty common knowledge to anybody who&#39;s been breathing long enough to watch the world and try and make sense of the things that their grandmother taught them.

<deeply apocryphal tone> NEVER FORGET THIS. </deeply apocryphal tone>

[bunnerabb]

I have nothing against philosophy, despite ..... Never has so little taken up so much space.

Is this my cue to bow to smarmy wit? Especially pretty obtuse smarmy wit? I mean, don&#39;t take this personally, but nickel for six priggery is pretty much the Republican party&#39;s platform en toto, and it doesn&#39;t make me vote for them, either.

What should be done? Castro should say "Whaddya you guys want from life, since you live here and shit. I&#39;ll see if I can work it out."

You know... like leaders do. Let&#39;s all hold our breath. Ready?

[LSD]

by the way, capitalism isn&#39;t based on greed, regardless of that crap Michael Douglass film&#39;s scriptwriting.

Michael Douglas...scriptwriting.....ok.....
look, can you at least try to stay on topic.


And, to say that capitalism isn&#39;t based on greed is ludicrous. It is predicated on assumptions that everyone wants everything, "unlimited demand" and all that.

Really, you should look these things up before you post about them.


It&#39;s based on simple economic prioncipals like supply and demand, investment returns and opportunities of the free market.

Read: Greed.

"Supply and demand" are intrinsically based in greed.
"investment returns" ultimately means getting stuff. Greed.
The "free market" is an oppresive and exploitative force which is ruining the lives of billions as we speak. It survives only because of greed.



This is pretty common knowledge to anybody who&#39;s been breathing long enough to watch the world and try and make sense of the things that their grandmother taught them.

grandmothers....right......off with the non sequitors again I see......

[bunnerabb]

Actually, no. Everything I said makes perfect sense.

The film I alluded to (that&#39;s called "alluding to something" or a "referential comment") is Wall Street. It coined the phrase "greed is good" for the movie-going masses. Michael Douglas was in it. He&#39;s an actor.


And, to say that capitalism isn&#39;t based on greed is ludicrous. It is predicated on assumptions that everyone wants everything, "unlimited demand" and all that.

Uh, no. That&#39;s called socialist propaganda. The market does not give a William nor Nilliam good Goddamn if
you are a post-neo, apocalyptic Baptist Libertarian or a banjo player. Things cost what they cost because that&#39;s what people are willing to pay.


Read: Greed.

Nope.

You really should read what people are actually typing before you post here, to use a recently turned phrase.

"Cheese is good&#33;" (Read: Lactal oppression of bovines designed to cause heart disease in the proletariat&#33;)
If you look closely, you&#39;ll find that there isn&#39;t sufficient space to shove your interpretations of my statements between the lines.

A non-sequiter is when you say "I like cookies" and I reply "Australia has it&#39;s summer in our winter months&#33;"

Most people&#39;s grandmother&#39;s didn&#39;t teach them "Gut the economy, oppress the poor, hang on to power as long as you can."

What I used was a metaphor. Again, your personal decision to eschew the notion that metaphor is a valid litereary contruct doesn&#39;t invalidate my opinion. But since that seems to be what you&#39;re shooting for, try again. I&#39;m a lot more worried about bad ideas turning innocent people&#39;s lives into ideological slavery in an era when even hte USSR tossed it&#39;s hands into the air and started opening fast food joints. I have no other motivations for involving myself in this discussion.

[LSD]

Uh, no. That&#39;s called socialist propaganda.

Yes, socialist propaganda written by Ayn Rand.......

Most schollarly advocates of capitalism admit it is a product of greed.


Things cost what they cost because that&#39;s what people are willing to pay.

BECAUSE...

Think, damn it&#33;&#33;

People are "willing to pay" because they want something because........
There is a point at which they will buy luxuries because......

(maybe because they want it)

OH&#33; Of course:

GREED.


Capitalism only survies because of greed.

Why do people work under capitalism? So they can get money and buy shit.
Why do people try to "climb the corporate ladder? So they can get more money and buy shit.
Hell, why do people play the lottery? They want money to, again, buy shit.

It&#39;s all about greed, my friend,


Most people&#39;s grandmother&#39;s didn&#39;t teach them "Gut the economy, oppress the poor, hang on to power as long as you can."

Not in those words, no.

But then my great-grandmother was a radical marxist, so I guess that doesn&#39;t count.....

[bunnerabb]

I don&#39;t know if you spend a lot of time addressing yourself to children or something, but I think quite well and for myself, .. damnit&#33;

Heheheheh....

Couple of quick questions on my road to elightenment here, if I may:

1): If wanting comfort is greed, howcome Fidel has &#036;2000.00 suits and what&#39;s wrong with not wanting to get blisters on your ass from a chunk of pine if you can squirrel up for some upholstery?

2): If working for remuneration is greed, what do the glorious proletariat use to buy stuff with? Shouldn&#39;t they burn down the mint?

Greed.... my friend.... is not when you work for 20 years and buy a house. Greed is when some cocksucker guts your mortgatge fund&#39;s investment portfolio and puts your family&#39;s asses on the street because payments never made it to the person holding the mortgage. Profit isn&#39;t greed. Theft is greed. Greed is gouging, not owning a &#39;97 Impala.

One-size-fits-all generalisations not only defeat logic, they belie language.

If socialism is where the government owns everything and you get a pound of rice and some bogroll handed to you every day for 12 hours work, and capitalism is where the government takes a ridiculously large slice of what you work for and you keep most of it and can afford a couple of pounds of hamburger, I think you need to rethink the notion that capitalism is simply a euphemism for raw greed.

We&#39;re all getting shafted by poeple who think they know what&#39;s best for us, but at least captialism gives you some motivation to stay in the game other than "Shut up and eat your rice, or we&#39;ll arrest you."

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by Ortega+Feb 2 2004, 12:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ortega @ Feb 2 2004, 12:39 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 12:31 AM

Regicidal [email protected] 1 2004, 07:27 PM
Here in Canada I&#39;ve been threatened with expultion from my school for having long hair, and lots of people I know have had to cut their hair short to get a job or have been refused employement or fired for it. It seems to be stigma all around, as silly as it is...
:blink:

We don&#39;t experience that sort of thing in the States...
WRONG&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

IF you are blacka nd wear your hair "natural" ie in a an afro or dreadlocks, or any style where your hair isn&#39;t cut, or in a woman&#39;s case straightened, you may not get a job, and in some places can be fired.

Which means if I ever want to get a job above minimum wage I have to cut my locks

And it&#39;s total bullshit because how come white people can have their hair natural, by these rules they should have to make their hair curly to get a job.
For blacks, there are definetly problems.

But as a white, I would have no problems if I were to have long hair.

I hate being a white American sometimes. It makes me feel like such a racist rich cappie... [/b]
You shouldn&#39;t hate being white, it&#39;s irrelevant.

It doesn&#39;t matter though, cuz I suppose if a white guy had locks he couldn&#39;t get a high paying job too

[LSD]

I don&#39;t know if you spend a lot of time addressing yourself to children or something, but I think quite well and for myself, .. damnit&#33;

Not by the looks of it....


If wanting comfort is greed, howcome Fidel has &#036;2000.00 suits

&#39;cause he&#39;s greedy.


and what&#39;s wrong with not wanting to get blisters on your ass from a chunk of pine if you can squirrel up for some upholstery?

Nothing, if that doesn&#39;t hurt anyone else.

Capitalism encourages solely individualistic thinking:
if it bennefits me, I&#39;ll do it

The point is that the acquisition of wealth is hurting people (and hurting them far more than the lack of upholstery)



If working for remuneration is greed, what do the glorious proletariat use to buy stuff with? Shouldn&#39;t they burn down the mint?

Yes, yes they should.
That&#39;s why it&#39;s called revolution.


Greed.... my friend.... is not when you work for 20 years and buy a house. Greed is when some cocksucker guts your mortgatge fund&#39;s investment portfolio and puts your family&#39;s asses on the street because payments never made it to the person holding the mortgage.

...and that "cocksucker", why&#39;d they do it??

Because the system rewards such behavior, the system rewards greed.

Capitalism states that people won&#39;t work unless they get something material back.
That people need renumeration.
Hence, it&#39;s about greed.


Profit isn&#39;t greed. Theft is greed. Greed is gouging, not owning a &#39;97 Impala.

Of course, profit is greed. Why do you want it??
Just for the hell of it?

It&#39;s about the acquisition of wealth.
It may not be greed on the same scale, but it&#39;s greed nonetheless.


We&#39;re all getting shafted by poeple who think they know what&#39;s best for us, but at least captialism gives you some motivation to stay in the game other than "Shut up and eat your rice, or we&#39;ll arrest you."

And that "motivation" is acquiring wealth.

Greed
by your own admission.



If socialism is where the government owns everything and you get a pound of rice and some bogroll handed to you every day for 12 hours work, and capitalism is where the government takes a ridiculously large slice of what you work for and you keep most of it and can afford a couple of pounds of hamburger, I think you need to rethink the notion that capitalism is simply a euphemism for raw greed.

I think you need to rethink your conception of communism.
What you&#39;re describing is basically state-capitalism, but it isn&#39;t communism.

Try reading up on anarcho-communism and then get back to me.

[bunnerabb]

Not by the looks of it...

Ahhhh, okay.. I see. You&#39;re one of those sniffy, self-important troll fucks that likes to insult people from armchairs under the guise of "high mindedness."

My bad.. See, I wanted a discussion.

You&#39;re excused.

Or, you can go someplace besides your mother&#39;s basement and the llibrary, and ....get back to me.

[LSD]

Ahhhh, okay.. I see. You&#39;re one of those sniffy, self-important troll fucks that likes to insult people from armchairs under the guise of "high mindedness."

My bad.. See, I wanted a discussion.

You&#39;re excused.

Or, you can go someplace besides your mother&#39;s basement and the llibrary, and ....get back to me.

I see, so you can&#39;t address the arguments so you attack 5 of the words.
You call that a "discussion"?

[Stapler]

It appears as though this "discussion" has degenerated into petty squabbling. Nobody here is going to change the other&#39;s mind by calling them "Troll Fuck", much less than anyone is going to convince me that the average person doesn&#39;t deserve free health care, or education by calling me a "wagonburner". Please, if you&#39;re going to make an argument, back it up, and don&#39;t make jabs at people. Everyone here is entitled to their opinion, it is a god given right (no, just a figure of speech, don&#39;t freak). The idea here is an exchange of ideas, leading to a better understanding of your cause, and a widening of perspective - not an all out shit throwing contest. Respect people who say things which disagree with your principles, answer respectfully why you feel this way, and they will do the same. Capeesh?

[bad-juju]

"That&#39;s OK, but just don&#39;t expect to convince anyone with that kind of stuff, especially when you could have easily made it up."

What kind of sick fuck do you think I am? Who would make up stories like these? Stories have always been a valid method of making a point, and as of now, it&#39;s the only thing I have. I left Cuba when I was 12, and I&#39;m now 27. I&#39;m sorry I don&#39;t have videotape of any of these stuff for you. And I get the feeling that even if I had, you wouldn&#39;t believe me. You want numbers, charts and statistics. You are not interested in people and their stories. But, I urge you to not believe everything that you hear coming from the Cuban government. The US government lies all the time. They fabricate stories, and they hide evidence of everything they do that might tarnish their reputation. Why is it so hard to believe that Cuba would do the same thing?

"Oh, come on. I do donate money to social causes, but no amount of wealth that I could provide would ever make any difference as to the prominence of corporate death squads."


First of all, from personal experience I will tell you that poor people don&#39;t like to be treated like charity or a tax break. They like you more when you wake up really early in the morning to work for them without getting paid. Or if you leave the comforts of your home and country to help them. You might not be able to provide millions of dollars, but here&#39;s what you can do. You can go to an empoverished country third world country and offer your help to the victims of these death squads. Being a healthy, well fed (I assume, and correct me if I&#39;m wrong) and a seemingly educated man, I bet there&#39;s a lot you can offer to those people. We can create a whole new group of volunteers that fights againsts these death squads, and maybe we&#39;ll get backing from some organization like the Peace Corps. I bet some of the people on these boards would like to go, too. Of course, it&#39;s not gonna be pleasant, and needless to say, it&#39;s gonna be dangerous. But it will serve a better purpose than just sitting at home and arguing about points that none of us obviosly gonna let go. That doesn&#39;t really help anybody.

Bad juju

[LSD]

What kind of sick fuck do you think I am? Who would make up stories like these? Stories have always been a valid method of making a point, and as of now, it&#39;s the only thing I have. I left Cuba when I was 12, and I&#39;m now 27. I&#39;m sorry I don&#39;t have videotape of any of these stuff for you. And I get the feeling that even if I had, you wouldn&#39;t believe me. You want numbers, charts and statistics. You are not interested in people and their stories.

I&#39;m interested in anything Verifiable.
If you&#39;d seen some of things people have come here and said came from "personal experience" you&#39;d understand.
You might be telling the truth, but then again you might not.
How am I supposed to know??


But, I urge you to not believe everything that you hear coming from the Cuban government. The US government lies all the time. They fabricate stories, and they hide evidence of everything they do that might tarnish their reputation. Why is it so hard to believe that Cuba would do the same thing?

Believe me, I don&#39;t trust official Cuban reports any further than I can throw them.

[bad-juju]

I&#39;m interested in anything Verifiable.
If you&#39;d seen some of things people have come here and said came from "personal experience" you&#39;d understand.
You might be telling the truth, but then again you might not.
How am I supposed to know??

I understand your predicament, but these are all personal stories. I, at least, am not in the habit of documenting everything that happens to me. I have a pretty gifted memory. I understand that people lie about things in Cuba all the time, and I don&#39;t know why. I suppose everyone wants attention, and the awful stuff that happens in Cuba is a good bandwagon to jump in. Unfortunately, that damages the credibility of everyone else. I know countless people in Miami who only care about destroying Castro beacuse they lost their bourgeois life styles when he came. They hate people like me and my parents, and they blame us for leaving Castro in power, when they were the ones that fled first. I don&#39;t want anything to do with them or their disgusting politcal agenda. They supporsted Batista, so it&#39;s their fault in the first place. If you have any ideas of how I can make this verifiable for you, please share them with me, and I&#39;ll see what I can do. I&#39;m working on some recent pictures of Havana, but my scanner seems to be rebelling against me.

Bad juju

[Rasta Sapian]

hey juju, what in the world is wrong with digging potatoes? Communists have to eat too&#33;

Did your personal independance and greed have anything to do with you leaving your homeland?

R U happy now "the world is yours"

[che's long lost daughter]

I live in a democratic country but our current president is slave to the imperialistic vampire that is George W. Bush.

[synthesis]

What kind of sick fuck do you think I am? Who would make up stories like these?

I am not speculating on what you may or may not do for perverse enjoyment.

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that when anyone witnesses to the barbarities of a regime which they were in opposition to, they have an unfortunate tendency to embellish the harsh nature of whomever they happen to dislike.

This is why anecdotal evidence is generally eschewed in favor of factual evidence and logical reasoning when it comes to political debate. We have absolutely no assurance that you are not fabricating your story or the details within it, and we are aware that you may have a motivation for doing those things. In any case, the nature of anecdotal evidence is that even if it is completely true, there is a chance that the trauma sustained was an isolated incident. In other words, it&#39;s just one person&#39;s story.


But, I urge you to not believe everything that you hear coming from the Cuban government. The US government lies all the time. They fabricate stories, and they hide evidence of everything they do that might tarnish their reputation. Why is it so hard to believe that Cuba would do the same thing?

There is always the possibility of falsehood.


First of all, from personal experience I will tell you that poor people don&#39;t like to be treated like charity or a tax break. They like you more when you wake up really early in the morning to work for them without getting paid. Or if you leave the comforts of your home and country to help them.

I plan to join the Peace Corps sometime within the next two years. My mother spent several years in Fiji and doing something like that sounds very appealing.


We can create a whole new group of volunteers that fights againsts these death squads, and maybe we&#39;ll get backing from some organization like the Peace Corps. I bet some of the people on these boards would like to go, too.

Human rights groups do fight against paramilitaries in the political arena. There is really very little way to actively work against them except by violent causes, in which case most of these organizations would not be willing to assist us.

Incidentally, these death squads will only become worse because they are funded by the world&#39;s only remaining superpower. The last one to dissolve was the only nation that funded the opposition in any meaningful way.

But it won&#39;t really help anything.

Look, I once shared your ideas about small, atomized, localized change - the "little by little" approach. Us generous Westerners will solve all the poor people&#39;s problems.

But it&#39;s bullshit. It doesn&#39;t work; it changes nothing, and it&#39;s based solely on patronizing those you seek to help.

I will now let a man wiser than myself explain the concepts which I describe.


The emotions of man are stirred more quickly than man&#39;s intelligence; and, as I pointed out some time ago in an article on the function of criticism, it is much more easy to have sympathy with suffering than it is to have sympathy with thought. Accordingly, with admirable though misdirected intentions, they very seriously and very sentimentally set themselves to the task of remedying the evils that they see. But their remedies do not cure the disease: they merely prolong it. Indeed, their remedies are part of the disease.

They try to solve the problem of poverty, for instance, by keeping the poor alive; or, in the case of a very advanced school, by amusing the poor.

But this is not a solution: it is an aggravation of the difficulty. The proper aim is to try and reconstruct society on such a basis that poverty will be impossible. And the altruistic virtues have really prevented the carrying out of this aim. Just as the worst slave-owners were those who were kind to their slaves, and so prevented the horror of the system being realised by those who suffered from it, and understood by those who contemplated it, so, in the present state of things in England, the people who do most harm are the people who try to do most good; and at last we have had the spectacle of men who have really studied the problem and know the life - educated men who live in the East End - coming forward and imploring the community to restrain its altruistic impulses of charity, benevolence, and the like. They do so on the ground that such charity degrades and demoralises. They are perfectly right. Charity creates a multitude of sins.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism

I want to deconstruct this machine under which we live, and I want to rebuild it for the betterment of humanity. I do not think small, because I&#39;m a communist.

[Stapler]

*sigh* bad-juju, I am willing to take your stories about digging potatoes at face value. However, these stories do not prove your initial argument. Conditions in capitalist countries in latin america are far worse. I can provide a list of Latin American countries, with average income for every one. I know average income is not an adequate indcator of quality of life, but it helps. I understand that you must hold contempt for Castro for the extreme poverty you have experienced in cuba, this is no more Castro&#39;s fault than it is anybody&#39;s.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Please bad-juju, tell us you whole, detailed story. I&#39;m sure everyone will benefit from it. Thanks

[heynow]

With the notable exception of Bad-Juju and ChaosMonkey, there appears to be a stunning lack of common sense and logic presented in this thread.

[heynow]

And LSD, since you claim to be interested in anything Verifiable, let me ask you this:

Can you verify you&#39;re not a complete fucking jerkoff?

[JonP]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 12:49 AM


What should be done? Castro should say "Whaddya you guys want from life, since you live here and shit. I&#39;ll see if I can work it out."

You know... like leaders do. Let&#39;s all hold our breath. Ready?
Yea because leaders like Blair and Bush really do that ....

:rolleyes: