"About the Word "Tranny""

[Sasha]

About the Word "Tranny"

Banning Words Is Censorship, and Censorship Is a Conservative Tactic

by Mx Justin Vivian Bond (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/mx-justin-vivian-bond/Author?oid=19946136)
http://www.thestranger.com/binary/d680/feat-bond-570.jpg Liz Liguori
MX JUSTIN VIVIAN BOND



comments (55) (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/about-the-word-tranny/Content?oid=19946137#readerComments)


http://www.thestranger.com/binary/98b4/feat-bond-click.jpg (http://www.thestranger.com/binary/98b4/feat-bond-click.jpg)
Queer Issue 2014



How to Stop the Stupid Debate About Taxpayer Dollars Funding "Sex Change" Surgeries (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/how-to-stop-the-stupid-debate-about-taxpayer-dollars-funding-sex-change-surgeries/Content?oid=19946101) by Danielle Askini
Queer Issue 2014: How to Make Sure We Don't Leave Trans People Behind (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/queer-issue-2014/Content?oid=19946096) by Dominic Holden
How to Stop Thinking All Trans People Are the Same (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/how-to-stop-thinking-all-trans-people-are-the-same/Content?oid=19946105) by Kai M. Green
Pride Calendar! A Comprehensive Guide to Every Party, Parade, Bar Night, and Pancake Breakfast (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/pride-everything-2014/Content?oid=19946161) by Adrian Ryan
How to Have Sex with a Trans Person (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/how-to-have-sex-with-a-trans-person/Content?oid=19946110) by Tobi Hill-Meyer
How to Date a Trans Person (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/how-to-date-a-trans-person/Content?oid=19946116) by Tobi Hill-Meyer
How to Make Seattle Better for Trans People (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/how-to-make-seattle-better-for-trans-people/Content?oid=19946119) by Cienna Madrid
About the Word "Tranny" (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/about-the-word-tranny/Content?oid=19946137) by Mx Justin Vivian Bond
I Am the Best Feminist, for I Am Dating a Trans Woman (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/i-am-the-best-feminist-for-i-am-dating-a-trans-woman/Content?oid=19946127) by Ash Stewart
How to Treat Trans Sex Workers with Respect (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/how-to-treat-trans-sex-workers-with-respect/Content?oid=19946131) by Anna Minard
How Zackary Drucker Photographs Trans People—Including Herself (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/how-zackary-drucker-photographs-trans-peopleandmdashincluding-herself/Content?oid=19946144) by Kelly O
CeCe McDonald on Being in Prison, Laverne Cox, and Gay Men Taking Women Seriously (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/cece-mcdonald-speaks-freely/Content?oid=19946147) by Dominic Holden
What Mac S. McGregor Thinks (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/what-mac-s-mcgregor-thinks/Content?oid=19946152) by David Schmader
Interview with Janet Mock About Transgender Issues, Piers Morgan, the T-Word, and Questions She's Tired Of (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/real-talk-with-janet-mock/Content?oid=19949916) by Dominic Holden
What Clyde Petersen Wants to Say (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/what-clyde-petersen-wants-to-say/Content?oid=19950265) by David Schmader
How to Photograph a Trans Man (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/how-to-photograph-a-trans-man/Content?oid=19950276) by Kelly O


Last night, I was talking with someone who is in their early 20s about the troubles developing around the use of the word "tranny," and they got very passionate, saying, "I HATE GENDER! Fuck gender!"
I asked, "How could gender change so that you wouldn't be so upset by it?" They said, "I don't know, I just wish I could set it on fire and get rid of it and make it go away! IT'S SO STUPID! I HATE IT!"
All I could say was: "I totally understand how you feel. So try to imagine feeling the way you feel right now for every day of your life until you're 50. Then see how that weighs on ya!"
Gender, as we know it, sucks? Okay! Let's try to come up with something else!
Why don't we start by addressing the recent controversy over the use of the word "tranny"?
Tranny was invented as a term of affection between those of us who wished to live outside the gender binary system, but now a new generation of trans activists finds that word to be deeply offensive and have sought to banish it entirely. For the record, I'm sorry the word we made up was overheard by mean people and has been used to cause so much pain to those who are experiencing transphobia in their young lives. It breaks my heart that transphobes from within and outside of our "community" have used that word to inflict pain on people. I am delighted that the word "queer," a word that continues to be loathed by a huge number of conservative, mostly bourgeois members of the LGBT community—a controversial and reclaimed umbrella term we fought hard for—has become a word that many conservative, state- and university-educated young "activists" seem to be able to cope with. For now.
You never know, though—next week, "queer" may once again become a forbidden word. But ultimately, we live in the present, and if it's not important to them how their level of comfort with the word "queer" came about, it really, truly doesn't matter.
Some of these young activists have been attacking self-identified trannies on the internet for using that word. I have felt the rage and anger they've directed at those of us who have different understandings of the words "queer" and "tranny." It hurts to a degree, but it's not a new pain. My greatest wish, and I mean this with my whole heart, is that the strategies they are using to combat transphobia now will lead to the better world they are hoping for. And it seems to me that there is room for both strategies (reappropriation and word-policing), because progress will most likely come about through trans visibility and dialogue around these issues, which will educate and illuminate, with the desired goal of ultimately making room in the world for an infinite variety of gender expressions.
But if by erasing the word "tranny," they hope to get rid of embarrassing associations with trans sex workers, drag performers, trashy gender fuckers, and other self- identified "freaks" who choose to live outside the binary gender system, they are in for a big disappointment, and in my opinion, they should be ashamed of themselves. Long before and even since Stonewall, the gay bourgeoisie has tried to hide the drag, leather, and trans subcultures away from the mainstream media to present a "positive" face in order to gain mainstream acceptance for the heteronormative LGBT people of their own class. This was also a strategy adopted by many feminists when they tried to purge lesbians from their ranks when feminism started to get a lot of mainstream attention. It didn't work for them, and it won't work for the (hopefully) well-intentioned trans "activists" who are getting a lot of mainstream media play and who have been have attacking other people who have more liberal and fluid notions of what gender can be.
This argument around word-policing has mistakenly been described as "a generational thing." It's not. It's about conservative tactics versus more progressive ones, and traditionally conservative media outlets like the Advocate as well as private and state-run academic institutions are more than happy to give them a platform. Before "Queer Studies" programs became institutionalized, there were loudmouthed, rebellious queers who were a threat to the status quo, and they were hated. Banning words is censorship, and censorship is a conservative tactic. Maybe you've heard this one? "I don't mind that you're gay, but do you have to talk about it all the time?"
Many people who wish to be seen as the men or women they are don't want to hear about, or be associated with, others who make them question their own strictly defined ideas of what it is to be "male" or "female" and how they should be treated as such. This applies to the desired acknowledgement of privilege exhibited by transphobes who yell "tranny" at people while physically attacking them, as well as those suffering from internalized transphobia who attack self-identified trannies on the internet for using that word. And then there are the people who grew up straight, white, and privileged, who transitioned without any meaningful, experiential knowledge of the queer community. Oftentimes they're the loudest, because they aren't used to being contradicted and are accustomed to having things their own way.
I have said many times that our consciousness around gender is evolving much more quickly than the language used to describe it. If these transgender activists wish to get rid of the word tranny because it's hurtful and offensive, I would like to know which other words they would rather use to describe people who inhabit the spaces between traditional gender representations. What are the acceptable words for those of us who refuse to identify as male or female? Please let us know. Because on most legal forms, we don't exist. If you were born male or female, or if you've transitioned to male or female physically and legally, and are able to live comfortably under one of those rubrics, then there is a box for you to check. But what about the rest of us? If there is no language, do we not exist? FYI, whether there are other words or not: We're here. We're Trannies. Get used to it! Instead of asking the world to banish certain words, we should be fighting for the inclusion of more, so that those of us who don't identify as male or female are no longer forced to lie about ourselves and what we are every time we fill out a form.
Hey, M and F! Give me a T!!!!
Personally, I believe we can continue working toward a better future for all the people around the world who identify as trans. While doing that, I also hope we can continue to hold a space where it's possible to share joyous moments with other members of our beloved trans community—laughing, playing around with gender, shredding the language of the dominant culture, and creating something new and wonderful that acknowledges the multiplicities of who we are. Over the years, we've been irreverent, obnoxious, defiant, rude, hysterical, ****y, fierce, *****y, sometimes charming, often hilarious mxanthropes. I hope we always will be—if only to keep the thread going that we've inherited from those who have gone before us (my immediate trancestors have names like Kitty, Doris, Tippi, Chloe, Jerome, Christian, Gordon, Diet... the list goes back thousands of years).
These are MY people.
But this is OUR Pride day, and as the struggle for freedom and respect continues for trans people worldwide, we must strive to honor our collective past. But we cannot live there.
SO! Onward and upward.
For now, please don't call anyone "tranny" who wishes to be seen only as the man or woman they are, because it really, really upsets them. They are not trannies. They are men and women, and it's our job to respect, honor, and look after their wishes and to care for them as well as for each other. But whether you're someone who hates gender or one who delights in gender play, if you refuse to be defined by other people's notions of what you are or who you should be, and if you see me on the street or in one of the other real nice places I usually hang out, feel free to look me in the eye with pride and a little bit of mischief and say, "Hey, Tranny!" Just don't say it too loud. I don't want you to get in trouble—and I certainly don't want you to hurt anyone else's feelings!
Love,
Mx Bond http://www.thestranger.com/images/rec_star.gif
Justin Vivian Bond is a Tony-nominated performer, singer-songwriter, visual artist, and winner of the Lambda Literary Award for transgender nonfiction for v's memoir Tango: My Childhood, Backwards and in High Heels.



source: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/about-the-word-tranny/Content?oid=19946137

[Sasha]

they also published a good interview with CeCe McDonnald that among other things also talks about this, i post it here too as a good counterweight in the debate;


CeCe McDonald Speaks Freely

Finally Out of Prison, McDonald Is Now One of the Country's Leading Trans Activists

by Dominic Holden (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/dominic-holden/Author?oid=77764)
http://www.thestranger.com/binary/ed22/feat-mcdonald-570.jpg Courtesy of cece mcdonald



CeCe McDonald was sentenced to 41 months in prison for fatally stabbing a man in an altercation with McDonald and her friends in Minneapolis, Minnesota, in 2011. McDonald said the assailants yelled racist and transphobic slurs and attacked her. She is currently making a documentary called FREE CeCe with Laverne Cox, who plays Sophia Burset on Orange Is the New Black. McDonald will be one of the speakers at Trans* Pride in Seattle on Friday, June 27.
You were released in January after being incarcerated for 19 months. Are you angry about what happened to you?
I wouldn't say so much angry, because a part of me knows, given how the prison industrial complex works, that there was a high chance I wasn't going to win my case. It was more depressing than it was angering, because you want to believe in this society that there is equality for all, but that is not the case most of the time.
What do you think people should know about the prison experience for trans people?
There is some discrimination against trans people in prison, but we have to realize that all people in prison deal with the same shit. I could sensationalize my situation, but there were people who were never going to get out for lesser crimes than mine.
You had a lot of support from people on the outside, including Laverne Cox. Did that help?
Definitely. A lot of queer and trans people were involved, including Katie Burgess. Laverne Cox, being in the spot that she is in now, definitely put the issues of trans women and violence on a different level.
There has been a lot of attention paid to this case. When you talk about it, you don't sound like a victim. What gives you the courage to be so outspoken?
No matter how brave I may seem, I still deal with issues around feeling safe. As a trans woman, and a black trans woman, no one is going to look out for me other than the people in my community and myself. If I get on a bus, I know there are people who will question me, snicker, or be judgmental. But I am going to live my life regardless. I can't let someone make me feel like I have to hide in the shadows. I don't let it deter me from challenging the transphobia, misogyny, and racism in this country.
What is the most concerning anti-trans discrimination in this country?
There is definitely a lot of discrimination in health care. If it is possible for a man to get a penis pump through his medical care, a trans woman should be able to get gender reassignment surgery and hormones without any issues. A penis pump is majorly cosmetic, but things related to a trans male are more medical than cosmetic. Also, the media portrays trans people using stereotypes.
What can the media do better?
We have to be seen as humans. See us for more than our bodies. I know there has been a lot of controversy around RuPaul and the comments he made [about the words "tranny" and "shemale"]. Those types of things, especially when they come from people within our own community, give the hetero community leeway to treat us the way that they do.
How should the T-word be used, if at all? Is it like the N-word?
There are so many words that people find offensive, and some words we use within our own cultural groups. If a group of trans women are together and they think that word is okay, then that's one thing. The way RuPaul was using it was more negative. "Shemale" and things like that perpetuate these ideas that trans women aren't women. We have to respect people on a level that is more enduring and understanding, because if people just see us as a joke, or use words to treat people like props or jokes, then that is how society will take us.
I think some gay guys intend it to be humorous when they use those words. What would you say to them?
It is just like a hetero guy who wants to call a gay guy the F-word. It's offensive. Words like "shemale" add to the problem of people not seeing us as what we are—as women. A lot of gay people see trans women as men in drag. We are women, and we need to be respected as such. Even if the term is taken as a joke or used as a joke, then that means you view me as a joke. And I don't want to be viewed as a joke. I need you to take me 100 percent seriously. http://www.thestranger.com/images/rec_star.gif



source: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/cece-mcdonald-speaks-freely/Content?oid=19946147

[Wuggums47]

I don't believe that any word should be banned, it is a human right to be able to voice your opinion. But I also feel that people who choose to use hate speech should not expect people to be okay with it. People are going to tell them they are doing something wrong, or even swear back at them. And it is their right to voice their opposition. I identify strongly with the viewpoint of "fuck gender", I personally believe that gender should not exist in it's current binary form, but rather be based on individual identity. Forms asking for your gender should have an option to fill your own in. People with non binary or trans identities should not have their genders policed by anyone around them either. Personally if anyone called me that word, I would be upset with them.

[Decolonize The Left]

For now, please don't call anyone "tranny" who wishes to be seen only as the man or woman they are, because it really, really upsets them. They are not trannies. They are men and women, and it's our job to respect, honor, and look after their wishes and to care for them as well as for each other. But whether you're someone who hates gender or one who delights in gender play, if you refuse to be defined by other people's notions of what you are or who you should be, and if you see me on the street or in one of the other real nice places I usually hang out, feel free to look me in the eye with pride and a little bit of mischief and say, "Hey, Tranny!" Just don't say it too loud. I don't want you to get in trouble—and I certainly don't want you to hurt anyone else's feelings!

This is a good point. I'd like to bring up the issue of different generations confronting changing language. I have a close friend whose mother is fairly radical and open minded and she, when confronted about using the word 'tranny', became upset as in the '60s, when she was a youth, it was considered a perfectly legitimate, in fact, a progressive term. She's totally fine with not using it and using a different word, but this example sheds light on a hurdle LGBTQ* folk will encounter (albeit a small one compared to systematic discrimination). What do folks think about this?

[Ele'ill]

I think a lot of times it is evident what the intention of word usages are depending on who is saying it and how they are saying it. At work someone overheard another worker saying 'hey girl' as a greeting and it had to later be explained to them that when they repeat it in a cis-better-than-thou kind of way it isn't the same thing. For the most part I don't think people should call each other names at all especially people you don't know very well, it is almost common sense that using some words are just completely inappropriate and socially unnecessary unless the intention is to use them in a hurtful way.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

not a hurtful or problematic word in the following circumstances:

abbreviation for transmission i.e in a motorised vehicle.

[Slavic]

Words do change, and I think the context of the speech can have more weight than the actual verbiage.

It is tricky when its comes to gender though since most verbiage still follows along gender binary lines even with regards to transgenders. I have always used female pronouns when talking to ex girlfriends of mine who were trans women. They self identified as female and that is how I identified them. It would be odd for me or them to refer to themselves as trans unless the conversation was strictly on biological gender lines.

I have never met a trans woman who referred to herself as a tranny, and rarely as a trans woman.

[The Modern Prometheus]

Well i have had a few transgendered friends over the years and i never had either of them get the slightest bit offended by me calling them Trannys and one woman i knew seemed to prefer people calling her that. I never even knew that it was a offensive word to some people because i have never known a Transgender person who took to take offense to it. But then again the people who i called Trannys where already my friends so that's bit different as there was certainly no ill intent behind it. I don't know if T-girl is considered a offensive word to some transgendered people or not but that's another thing alot of them call themselves.

I just find it sad that in 2014 transgender people still have to face such discrimination for nothing. As a society it makes us look rather pathetic.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I'm a trans woman. Call me a "tranny" at your own peril. It's a slur. I've never had it directed at me except as a slur.

[Wuggums47]

Well i have had a few transgendered friends over the years and i never had either of them get the slightest bit offended by me calling them Trannys and one woman i knew seemed to prefer people calling her that. I never even knew that it was a offensive word to some people because i have never known a Transgender person who took to take offense to it. But then again the people who i called Trannys where already my friends so that's bit different as there was certainly no ill intent behind it. I don't know if T-girl is considered a offensive word to some transgendered people or not but that's another thing alot of them call themselves.

I just find it sad that in 2014 transgender people still have to face such discrimination for nothing. As a society it makes us look rather pathetic.

Most of the trans women I've met don't like the term, they associate it with pornography that doesn't treat them like real women. Some are okay with it, but it's probably better to avoid it. I think in general the best thing to call them is men and woman, and only bring up that they are trans if it's necessary to clarify.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Most of the trans women I've met don't like the term, they associate it with pornography that doesn't treat them like real women.
Another slur--shemale--is actually more associated with porn.

[Akinesia]

Most of the trans women I've met don't like the term, they associate it with pornography that doesn't treat them like real women. Some are okay with it, but it's probably better to avoid it. I think in general the best thing to call them is men and woman, and only bring up that they are trans if it's necessary to clarify.

Ultimately they're reinforcing that attitude towards pornography by uncritically incorporating it into the semantics of their own vernacular.

What we have here is an established community of extremely oppressed queers, the drag community, composed of trans women, non-binaries, genderqueers, and genderfucking cismen (predominantly homo), owning a word that would only delegitimise them under the standards and values of straight supremacist heteronormative culture. Running in fear of those norms is not queer. Being queer is being satisfied with the contradiction between the way you proudly express your identity (the language you use etc.) and the values of this oppressive society that would tell you to feel shame over any association with porn, with drag, with sex workers. The impression I get is that the worry from the young, middle-class trans activists is that terms like "tranny", if they used them, might -- through their association with drag! -- remove from the idea that they are actual bona fide women (or, indeed, men). There is a tension between this need to cling to the gender system, and the queer mission to transgress these categorising labels.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

The impression I get is that the worry from the young, middle-class trans activists is that terms like "tranny", if they used them, might -- through their association with drag! -- remove from the idea that they are actual bona fide women (or, indeed, men). There is a tension between this need to cling to the gender system, and the queer mission to transgress these categorising labels.

Of course it is something that implies no true whatever- "drag" is like black-face. It is at heart a mocking exaggeration of traits ascribed to females by stereotypes, taken to a ridiculous length in stage show partially for its supposed "comedic" value (I find it really sexist). To be a drag-queen is essentially be a man as a mockery of a woman - this is sometimes also extended in many people's understanding to terms like tranny. Not to mention that people can't make up their mind of they are to use tranny for a transvestite or a transsexual or what-have-you.

[Akinesia]

Of course it is something that implies no true whatever- "drag" is like black-face. It is at heart a mocking exaggeration of traits ascribed to females by stereotypes, taken to a ridiculous length in stage show partially for its supposed "comedic" value (I find it really sexist). To be a drag-queen is essentially be a man as a mockery of a woman - this is sometimes also extended in many people's understanding to terms like tranny. Not to mention that people can't make up their mind of they are to use tranny for a transvestite or a transsexual or what-have-you.

Blacking up is not comparable to drag. The phenomenon of drag is just way more nuanced than that -- look at where it comes from. Drag culture originates in the repression of genderqueers: people assigned male at birth whose identities could not conform to the strict binary, people who want to express themselves in a manner at odds with gender rules. For a genderqueer to publicly express their identity was for them to face exile from 'respectable society', precluding them from conventional livelihoods. Genderqueers were left with very limited options: insalubrious work in the sex and entertainment industries (often with lots of overlap). Drag is not just performance: "drag culture" started with the genderqueers who were initially left with no means of working asides from commercial performance. It isn't a bunch of privileged cis-men deciding to mock women for money. I personally think that that perspective is extremely trans-exclusionary (very Megan Murphy).

But to come back to a very strong criticism of drag, the point about how the expressions of the performers often are extremely misogynistic - I agree. This is internalised misogyny, it's the result of patriarchal ideas about what it looks like to be a woman. The queers are told that to legitimately express their non-binary gender they have to adopt this extremely patriarchal concept of womanhood. The exact same thing is true of many women! That's why we see many (particularly working-class) women mutilating themselves in the quest for sex-appeal, or donning 'fuck me' heels, or shunning careers and lifestyles presented to them as 'masculine'.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I'm a trans woman. Call me a "tranny" at your own peril. It's a slur. I've never had it directed at me except as a slur.

Yeah, I have friends who happen to be transgender and they know that word from experiencing hate violence and having that word shouted by the perpetrators. Someone uses that word and I hear it they are disrespecting my comrades and I will react like the drunk agro hooligrrrl I am.

As for the censorship argument... I'm gonna ignore the invalidity of the constitution for a second to indulge. The First amendment is meant to protect individuals from censorship by the government, not from other individuals calling them out. So before any idiots whine about first amendment rights and "freedom of speech" I want to put that out there.

[The Modern Prometheus]

I'm a trans woman. Call me a "tranny" at your own peril. It's a slur. I've never had it directed at me except as a slur.

Okay point taken. I have never heard it used as a slur before but i have heard much worse words used against Transgendered people as slurs. None of the trans women i knew cared less if i called them that and i didn't even know it was a slur. I wonder if it's a regional thing? In either case i certainly won't be using that word now except to the transgendered friends i have.

If i did offend you i certainly meant no harm by it so i am sorry if i did.

[blake 3:17]

I do use the tranny but that's in reference to people who identify that way. It's done with love and respect.

If it's done out of hate or ignorance, not cool. That'd be addressed in the appropriate way.

[Sea]

Blacking up is not comparable to drag. The phenomenon of drag is just way more nuanced than that -- look at where it comes from. Drag culture originates in the repression of genderqueersAnd the phenomenon of blackface comes from the repression of blacks. Troll.

[blake 3:17]

Of course it is something that implies no true whatever- "drag" is like black-face. It is at heart a mocking exaggeration of traits ascribed to females by stereotypes, taken to a ridiculous length in stage show partially for its supposed "comedic" value (I find it really sexist). To be a drag-queen is essentially be a man as a mockery of a woman - this is sometimes also extended in many people's understanding to terms like tranny. Not to mention that people can't make up their mind of they are to use tranny for a transvestite or a transsexual or what-have-you.

Fightin words. The history of black face was intimately bound with racist and fascistic violence. It still is. Every so often somebody fuck with it good -- dude couple hallowe'ens ago in black face and all us PC whatevs go "AHHH!" but brother almost blacker than this black face -- that was a good one. Boop! Good head fuck

Yeah there can be shit sexist drag, and there's fucking awesome amazing empowering drag queens and kings. Seen a lot over the years -- Saw MX Bond as Kiki back in 99 or 2000 at a lezzy or fag night aka a Friday or Saturday at Tallulah's at Buddies.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I do use the tranny but that's in reference to people who identify that way. It's done with love and respect.

If it's done out of hate or ignorance, not cool. That'd be addressed in the appropriate way.

Good, you want to call me a spic? How about street trash? How about whore?

All terms that I in one way or another identify as or as the label associated with the these terms. It still aint your place, it is a matter of privilege and injustice.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I'm a trans woman. Call me a "tranny" at your own peril. It's a slur. I've never had it directed at me except as a slur.

For what it's worth, I'd back you up in such a fight.

[Dagoth Ur]

I have never understood the anti-gender "trans" people. It was never about hating genders, but that I was in the wrong fucking camp. I love gender. I love being a girl. Calling me a tranny is no different from calling me a faggot, except that you're also insulting my femininity.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Good, you want to call me a spic? How about street trash? How about whore?

All terms that I in one way or another identify as or as the label associated with the these terms. It still aint your place, it is a matter of privilege and injustice.

A little presumptuous hmm? Who are you to lecture Blake on his word choice around his trans friends when it was implied that said friends were fine with it?

[Lanfear]

For what it's worth, I'd back you up in such a fight.

As would I.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

A little presumptuous hmm? Who are you to lecture Blake on his word choice around his trans friends when it was implied that said friends were fine with it?

Because I have my trans friends' backs. I have friends who were trans who were beaten to within an inch of their lives while having the word "tranny" shouted at them. Just like I've been violently attacked while some privileged gabacho fucking bonehead piece of shit screamed "spic *****" at me. That is when I stab a motherfucker.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Because I have my trans friends' backs. I have friends who were trans who were beaten to within an inch of their lives while having the word "tranny" shouted at them. Just like I've been violently attacked while some privileged gabacho fucking bonehead piece of shit screamed "spic *****" at me. That is when I stab a motherfucker.
Maybe your experiences aren't universal among trans people. If there are trans people who don't mind being called tranny, why should they take a strangers view into consideration?

[Dagoth Ur]

Why should anyone take a stranger's point of view into consideration?

[Rugged Collectivist]

Why should anyone take a stranger's point of view into consideration?

Sorry. I worded that terribly.

Why does BGA presume to speak for all transsexuals?

[consuming negativity]

It seems sort of obvious to me that "tranny" is not a wonderful word to be slinging around. I also think "drag shows" are sort of in the same vein as those people who go to "allies" meetings... rich snots. But I don't think someone who wants to be a drag queen is really fucking anything up for being who they are. The shows are stupid, but who cares if some guy wants to run around in non-gender conforming clothing? If anything, shouldn't we be taking up for his right to wear whatever the hell he wants? Black face is offensive not only because it has a history but because it's being done by racist white people who think they're being funny. No kind-hearted person actually dresses up for Halloween "like a black person" as if they were the same thing as a fucking ghost or goblin from fantasy. The entire argument is a huge straw man.

[BIXX]

I have never understood the anti-gender "trans" people. It was never about hating genders, but that I was in the wrong fucking camp. I love gender. I love being a girl. Calling me a tranny is no different from calling me a faggot, except that you're also insulting my femininity.


So what you're saying is that if you're against gender then you can't be trans? At least, that is what is implied when you put the quotation marks around it. How about you fuck off? I'm trans and against gender, I fail to see where the contradiction would come from.

[Dagoth Ur]

I put trans in quotations because I do not like this conflation of "genderqueer" with "trans". They are separate things, coming from separate places, and with different goals as "communities".

I'm sorry I inadvertently insulted your beautiful and unique collage of an identity. I'm sure being a jerk about it makes you feel better but I don't care. You and your sour attitude can fuck off completely because I'm done even wasting the energy it takes to read your shit posts.

[Tenka]

I put trans in quotations because I do not like this conflation of "genderqueer" with "trans". They are separate things, coming from separate places, and with different goals as "communities".

I'm sorry I inadvertently insulted your beautiful and unique collage of an identity. I'm sure being a jerk about it makes you feel better but I don't care. You and your sour attitude can fuck off completely because I'm done even wasting the energy it takes to read your shit posts.

Irony evident.
Anyway, genderqueer are trans whether you like it or not. Transgender is broader than the binary -woman/man. I agree that our goals have a tendency towards differing, however, since the aim of many transwomen/men is to be recognised as "real" women/men--in effect, to leave the trans community; whereas other sorts of transgender individuals who do not fall on the binary are trans for as long as that binary exists in the human consciousness.

Personally, I would have gender destroyed, but I won't disrespect anyone's identity (except otherkin and those sorts of internet byproducts).

[Orange Juche]

Ultimately they're reinforcing that attitude towards pornography by uncritically incorporating it into the semantics of their own vernacular.

What we have here is an established community of extremely oppressed queers, the drag community

The cisgender drag community needs to stop doing what they do (drag) as a community altogether, like yesterday. It's essentially a gender minstrel show that's both misogynistic and transphobic, and I don't know how the rest of the LGBT community continues to reinforce it as a positive thing.

It's not. It's fucked.

And as a PS, these are the biggest users, and advocates, of the word "tranny".

[Dagoth Ur]

Everything about the above post is awesome.

@tenka: You know what? Fair enough. I guess I haven't dealt with many genderqueer people in real life so I tend to think of them as much of an internet phenomenon themselves, like otherkin. I'll keep this in mind. Thank you.

[Slavic]

The cisgender drag community needs to stop doing what they do (drag) as a community altogether, like yesterday. It's essentially a gender minstrel show that's both misogynistic and transphobic, and I don't know how the rest of the LGBT community continues to reinforce it as a positive thing.

It's not. It's fucked.

And as a PS, these are the biggest users, and advocates, of the word "tranny".

So if you don't identify as a woman you can't dress up as your stereotypical woman?

I know the traditional meaning is a cisman dressed as a women, but honestly how many in these shows actually fit that bill? The bars Ive frequented that have had drag shows not only attract cismen participants but also transwomen. Providing an environment where you can feel safe to be "womanly" if in the stereotypical sense.

I mean, I understand if your upset because the getup from these events are usually an over the top stereotype of what's a woman, but these shows can and do serve as a social out let for transwomen to be "womenly".

[Dagoth Ur]

I can be womanly perfectly fine without people parading around parodying women. You also meet a lot of scumbags aiming to "try out a tranny" at these events. Just because some people have fu or get something out of it doesn't change that the butt of the joke in a drag show is womanhood.

[Slavic]

I can be womanly perfectly fine without people parading around parodying women.

Thats awesome, not everyone is that strong.

[Orange Juche]

I can be womanly perfectly fine without people parading around parodying women.

I think this (emphasis added by me) is the crux of it. "Drag culture" is parodying women - people aren't acting womanly - they're acting as a parody.

There do need to be spaces for people to be able to freely play with gender, but this isn't one that's doing that. This is one that's mocking a specific gender - and when cis people do it, that's mocking trans people.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Sorry. I worded that terribly.

Why does BGA presume to speak for all transsexuals?

I never said I speak for anyone. If you had a friend that was chicana (like I happen to be) and you endearingly referred to that friend as "spic" I'd beat the ever living fuck out of you and so would a lot of other people who that slur doesn't even apply to. Why? because it is a slur. Btw, don't claim that I'm trans I hate the label. I'm a grrrl. No need for adjectives.

Hail to the horns y'all \m/

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

The cisgender drag community needs to stop doing what they do (drag) as a community altogether, like yesterday. It's essentially a gender minstrel show that's both misogynistic and transphobic, and I don't know how the rest of the LGBT community continues to reinforce it as a positive thing.

It's not. It's fucked.

And as a PS, these are the biggest users, and advocates, of the word "tranny".

Like that fuckface RuPaul. What a misogynist (and cissexist) piece of shit!

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Huh. Well shit, I kind of thought drag shows were a safe place to play with gender. Nobody's mocking women. The reason they dress so outlandishly is because it's meant to be a form of entertainment. They're not dressing like that to be like "lololol stupid women". That's completely idiotic. They are doing a sing/dance routine and dress like that because it's interesting.

Would you say the same for women who dress as men to do similar stuff? Not nearly as popular, but still.

Of course, I'm a cisgendered male, so I will never tell you what not to get offended over. I'm trying to understand this, and if I'm wrong I'm ready to admit I'm wrong. I just don't see how telling guys they cannot dress as women and do a show, is very… progressive.

[Dagoth Ur]

"Hurr durr it's not racist to do minstrel shows. They're just entertaining people by being incredibly racist."

This is what your post sounds like to me. Their outlandish act is a fucking parody and I don't care how many fucking people enjoy it.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

"Hurr durr it's not racist to do minstrel shows. They're just entertaining people by being incredibly racist."

This is what your post sounds like to me. Their outlandish act is a fucking parody and I don't care how many fucking people enjoy it.

Fair enough, but explain how it is a parody. Nobody who goes to that show is going there to make fun of women. Every single person who went to a minstrel show was going to make fun of black people.

[BIXX]

I'm sorry I inadvertently insulted your beautiful and unique collage of an identity. I'm sure being a jerk about it makes you feel better but I don't care. You and your sour attitude can fuck off completely because I'm done even wasting the energy it takes to read your shit posts.


Wow, ok.

How about you burn in hell? There's this, plus you calling someone a ****, what reactionary bullshit are you gonna puke up next?

[Dagoth Ur]

Your idealistic bullshit. Egoist anarchism my ****.

[Quail]

Sorry for the lax moderation. Please don't mock anybody's gender identity or flame each other. This is a general verbal warning.

---

On the subject of drag, what do you all think of drag kings? Personally I think that a group of drag performers could potentially do some pretty fun and subversive stuff (and have considered it myself).

[consuming negativity]

Fair enough, but explain how it is a parody. Nobody who goes to that show is going there to make fun of women. Every single person who went to a minstrel show was going to make fun of black people.

There is a difference between thinking X group acts like Y because they do act like Y, and thinking X group acts like Y because of inaccurate portrayals of them becoming the commonly accepted wisdom. Here's an example.

All we know about Norse history is what was written down by Christians, because the actual Nordic culture was erased completely. This happens in two ways: one, through destruction, and two, through substitution. Smashing an idol to a god is destruction. Leaving the idol there but saying that it is actually a strong mortal being who worships the Christian God is substitution. Both result in the original meaning of the idol to the Nords being lost, but one gets rid of it completely while the other is changing it. This goes on on a much smaller scale, too. When you continually portray stereotypical women, or even sincerely intend to portray women correctly but are doing so inaccurately, you are equally contributing to the destruction of the knowledge of who they actually are. This is not just offensive, but passively violent, as it is essentially the erasure of their common identity.

edit: this is hopelessly jumbled and i can't figure out how to keep the train of thought from bouncing around. lemme know if it doesn't make sense

[VassilisStalin]

Hmm...I cant seem anything really bad on this word.But,we should accept them.In my country however everyone dislikes tranvestites and stuff so they keep calling them "travelia" which harshly means tranvestite.And when he meant gender he wasnt on natural gender.He was on sexual identity.

[Rugged Collectivist]

I never said I speak for anyone. If you had a friend that was chicana (like I happen to be) and you endearingly referred to that friend as "spic" I'd beat the ever living fuck out of you and so would a lot of other people who that slur doesn't even apply to. Why? because it is a slur. Btw, don't claim that I'm trans I hate the label. I'm a grrrl. No need for adjectives.

Hail to the horns y'all \m/
I wouldn't call my friend a spic under any circumstance, but if they explicitly stated that they didn't care about being called a spic, that's their decision. You being Chicana has nothing to do with it.

On the subject of drag. I'm not familiar enough with it to have an opinion, but it seems to me that the existence of concepts like femininity and masculinity is a problem. I can't blame women for being offended by negative portrayals of femininity in the current context. Ultimately, though, gender itself must be destroyed.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I wouldn't call my friend a spic under any circumstance, but if they explicitly stated that they didn't care about being called a spic, that's their decision. You being Chicana has nothing to do with it.

On the subject of drag. I'm not familiar enough with it to have an opinion, but it seems to me that the existence of concepts like femininity and masculinity is a problem. I can't blame women for being offended by negative portrayals of femininity in the current context. Ultimately, though, gender itself must be destroyed.

So one slur is okay and the other isn't. The fact is, I don't speak for transexuals. I won't even speak for my transexual friends, but I will stick up for them. I've had countless friend who were trans who were beaten to near death and/or sexually assaulted while the assailants shouted that fucking word "tranny" at them over and over. Just like how I've been attacked by neo-nazis who were yelling "spic *****". I aint speaking for them, I am speaking in support of them. So my experience with racist slurs in reference to [email protected] is relevant, more than relevant. The word "tranny" is never okay, nor is "she-male" for that matter.

Also, I never thought I'd see this eye to eye with Dagoth Ur, me being an anarchist and what not and Dagoth being, well, Dagoth. I salute you Dagoth. \m/

[Orange Juche]

Fair enough, but explain how it is a parody. Nobody who goes to that show is going there to make fun of women. Every single person who went to a minstrel show was going to make fun of black people.

Yes, there's not a sign on the door saying "let's make fun of women", but the entire premise of drag in and of itself is the extreme exaggeration of what are gendered traits to the point of mockery. That makes it misogynistic, and the fact that it's far more often than not cis men in "drag", often using the word "tr*nny", it's transphobic.

If you had a group dress up exaggerated and do "performances" as any other oppressed minority (not necessarily racial), people would freak out. It is exactly because members of the rest of the LGBT community legitimize it that they get away with it, which is why people need to start calling this out for what it is.

[Rugged Collectivist]

So one slur is okay and the other isn't. The fact is, I don't speak for transexuals. I won't even speak for my transexual friends, but I will stick up for them. I've had countless friend who were trans who were beaten to near death and/or sexually assaulted while the assailants shouted that fucking word "tranny" at them over and over. Just like how I've been attacked by neo-nazis who were yelling "spic *****". I aint speaking for them, I am speaking in support of them. So my experience with racist slurs in reference to [email protected] is relevant, more than relevant. The word "tranny" is never okay, nor is "she-male" for that matter.

Also, I never thought I'd see this eye to eye with Dagoth Ur, me being an anarchist and what not and Dagoth being, well, Dagoth. I salute you Dagoth. \m/
That's right, you don't speak for anyone else, but by saying the word "tranny" is never okay you are effectively speaking for other people. It's not up to you to decide what words can be uttered around other people.

[Quail]

I think it's pretty safe to say that in general, you shouldn't call someone a "tranny" though. It is a slur.

[Lanfear]

I have to admit I have never considered a drag show to be a negative thing.