organizing an international revolutionary army in Middle East

[martineden]

Hi to everybody,

I would like to discuss situation of Syria and Iraq. As you know, war started in Syria. Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar supported opposition groups. They used Jihadism as an instrument to recruit more and more militants. But it created more jihadist groups. Consequently, ISIS captured Mosul and many other cities in Iraq.

In Turkey, there is a pro-Islamic government. Erdogan defines themselves as democratic conservative. But they support Islamic jihadism in middle east even they started suffering from them.

There is a developing Islamic Fundamentalism in Middle East. But there is also some hopes for future of Middle East. PYD (Syrian Kurdish Party) holds many cities in Syria. Against jihadist and faschist armed groups, there is a need for an army of secular democratic and socialist middle east. that army can traine in PYD controls territories.

I think that people from rest of world may join that army to fight against Jihadist and faschist groups.

What do you think?

[Red Commissar]

Now ignoring the more obvious problems with this, how would one support, train, and fund such a force? Transport them there? Drop them into a region where they are unfamiliar with the local terrain, language, culture, etc.? How would you differentiate between people who have an interest in pursuing the goals you laid out, and your jihadwatch types who're nutty right-wingers and get a hard-on killing foreigners?

So you have the PYD doing their thing, but how would you reconcile the PYD and say a Turkish nationalist who might see Kurdish movements, regardless of their political affiliation, as part of an elaborate Israeli and/or American scheme to dominate the Middle-East and undermine Turkey?

It sounds good on paper but these kinds of things are near-impossible to organize, especially if there is not a source of funding for it or a base of support to work from.

[Tim Cornelis]

I think we might as well train unicorns to fight for us.

[DOOM]

I think we might as well train unicorns to fight for us.

This

Proletarian unicorn brigades when????

[exeexe]

To fight against ISIS right now i think will only help the interest of the western civilization (the capitalist class). No let them have the iraqi oil for some time and let the oil market crash then the western civilization will be weakened and from here we can judge what will the next step be.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Hi to everybody,

I would like to discuss situation of Syria and Iraq. As you know, war started in Syria. Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar supported opposition groups. They used Jihadism as an instrument to recruit more and more militants. But it created more jihadist groups. Consequently, ISIS captured Mosul and many other cities in Iraq.

In Turkey, there is a pro-Islamic government. Erdogan defines themselves as democratic conservative. But they support Islamic jihadism in middle east even they started suffering from them.

There is a developing Islamic Fundamentalism in Middle East. But there is also some hopes for future of Middle East. PYD (Syrian Kurdish Party) holds many cities in Syria. Against jihadist and faschist armed groups, there is a need for an army of secular democratic and socialist middle east. that army can traine in PYD controls territories.

I think that people from rest of world may join that army to fight against Jihadist and faschist groups.

What do you think?

I doubt it would work. There is no infrastructure to start some kind of leftwing Foco-style opposition to ISIS and other groups. They simply have vastly superior arms and economic means, and any Leftists to go down are more likely to just get themselves crucified (literally) as apostates than do any good. Focus on organizing opposition at home, and building a Leftwing opposition to the AKP


To fight against ISIS right now i think will only help the interest of the western civilization (the capitalist class). No let them have the iraqi oil for some time and let the oil market crash then the western civilization will be weakened and from here we can judge what will the next step be.

The Western bourgeoisie would be weakened but we will just see the emergence of a more capable and well armed Sunni theocratic elite, just as dependent on the exploitation of labor and the expansion of Capital.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

The first thing you need to do is post about it on an Internet forum so that even if nothing happens you can still get arrested.

[hashem]

Armed struggle is not a game. Intellectuals are not capable fighters. without masses of people, they will become a sect and can be easily defeated. Turkish communists are active in armed struggle in Syria but they have experience from their own country and they are not isolated intellectuals. apart from them, i cant see anyone who is useful in armed struggle in Syria.

besides, dont forget that PYD is a bourgeois party. communists are in a united front along with it, but they shouldnt forget its nature. you cannot expect bourgeoise to offer proletariat a base for an international communist army.

if you want to support the revolution in Rojava (west Kurdistan), here is the way (http://www.icor.info/2013/account-for-rojava-solidarity-iban-de-49-370-502-99-000-40-10-481-bic-swift-coksde-33-keyword-icor-rojava).

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Just as the coup against Morsi signaled an eclipse for the reformist "establishment" Islamist parties, the state being created by ISIS will eventually consume itself with violence and collapse, leading to an eclipse for this kind of Islamist tactic as well. Islam will eventually submit to liberal capitalism just as Christianity and Judaism has, this thrashing about is just it's death spasms. What follows this period will be interesting, I can imagine a future where the population of the Muslim word embraces a militant secularlism out of sheer exhaustion with the current way of things.

[hashem]

Islam will eventually submit to liberal capitalism just as Christianity and Judaism

todays Islamism will not submit to liberal capitalism, on the contrary, Islamism is the result of decaying liberal capitalism. there was once a time when bourgeoisie was a progressive class. back then, it pushed aside reactionary religions which were defending the old system. but now, bourgeoisie itself is reactionary, therefor, it needs reactionary ideologies to stand against human progress.

it was liberal capitalism which supported Afghan Mujahids against its Russian rival. it is liberal capitalism which is supporting ISIL against governments of Syria and Iraq.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

todays Islamism will not submit to liberal capitalism, on the contrary, Islamism is the result of decaying liberal capitalism. there was once a time when bourgeoisie was a progressive class. back then, it pushed aside reactionary religions which were defending the old system. but now, bourgeoisie itself is reactionary, therefor, it needs reactionary ideologies to stand against human progress.

it was liberal capitalism which supported Afghan Mujahids against its Russian rival. it is liberal capitalism which is supporting ISIL against governments of Syria and Iraq.

For sure, I mean look back at the 20th century and you can see liberal capitalism supporting 'communist' movements when they seemed to serve it's interests. But while the antagonisms that created communist movements continue to exist, the people of the world have for the most part reached a point of exhaustion where they can longer come to support these movements. The antagonisms that created Islamism will continue to exist after this new state collapses, but it does not seem unreasonable to suspect that groups like ISIS or al qaeda will become more and more isolated in ways reminiscent of FARC or shining path.

[Luís Henrique]

I am sorry, but this is a

http://ideias.wdfiles.com/local--files/memes/recipe%20for%20disaster.png

People who are willing to fight where they are shouldn't be dislocated into places they don't know well, where they are going to be much less effective.

People without military training are not good soldiers.

People with military training are not usually going to fight for something they don't understand, unless they are under strict hierarchic command.

Luís Henrique

[khad]

People who are willing to fight where they are shouldn't be dislocated into places they don't know well, where they are going to be much less effective.

People without military training are not good soldiers.

People with military training are not usually going to fight for something they don't understand, unless they are under strict hierarchic command.Ironically, Dawla Islamiya is winning precisely because they discarded the illiterate local trash and started appealing heavily to foreign jihadis in Europe, North Africa, and the Caucasus. The Chechens and Tunisians have formed an elite backbone to their ground forces. The more ignorant and less reliable Saudis (according to firsthand accounts) are encouraged to take up jobs as suicide bombers.

The key distinction is that they have a military training apparatus good to go, together with large batches of veteran fighters, something that western left has never even come close to having.


I can imagine a future where the population of the Muslim word embraces a militant secularlism out of sheer exhaustion with the current way of things.

You can park your lawn chair next to this guy

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_c7kftxwpRwQ/TbbyqMiKkvI/AAAAAAAABt0/Kx2zu10l3Ak/s400/leaf-fan-waiting-for-cup.jpeg


that army can traine in PYD controls territories.

I think that people from rest of world may join that army to fight against Jihadist and faschist groups.

What do you think?
And do what, exactly? Occupy the border and defend it from Iraqi Kurds?
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/06/iraq-mosul-isis-pyd-pkk-kurds-barzani-kdp-peshmerga.html

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Perhaps an ambivalent secularism would have been a better choice or just plain old apathy, regardless I reject the kneejerk orientalism buried in views similar to what you've just expressed.

[khad]

Perhaps an ambivalent secularism would have been a better choice or just plain old apathy, regardless I reject the kneejerk orientalism buried in views similar to what you've just expressed.
Remind me again, how long did take Christianity, following the various Crusades of the 12th-13th centuries, to recede from its primary role in European public life? How much collective apathy set in after the 30 Years' War?

I reject your ignorance of history. By your logic people would get tired of war, too.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I'm not saying you're without a point or that what I imagine is a certainty, but the modern day resident of Syria or Iraq has access to information and dissenting views than a European serf 500 years ago did not. Not to mention the daily affirmations of the helplessness of their rulers in the face of angry masses of normal people.

[sedanchair]

I'm curious how this desire for leftist brigades in middle eastern conflicts is any different from the meddling of neoconservatives. Before you know it, you're supporting MEK because they align with you more than the other guys.

[hashem]

I'm curious how this desire for leftist brigades in middle eastern conflicts is any different from the meddling of neoconservatives. Before you know it, you're supporting MEK because they align with you more than the other guys.

MEK is not a political organization anymore. its a miserable cult. even when it was a political organization, it was hostile toward leftists.

leftist brigades are not only a desire in middle east, they are active in Turkey and Syria and are being prepared in other countries. they are progressive and a historical necessity. what makes you think they are similar to the "meddling of neoconservatives"?

[Diogenese]

The only fighters the population would accept there are muslims from other muslim countries, regardless if you're on the right or left.
The reason why there is no such thing today as europeans and asians fighting for the PLO or baathists or other secular socialists/communists like there was in the 60s and 70s is because the US and Israel spent the 80s and 90s directly funding muslim extremists or through their ally saudi arabia. To them the reasoning was that religious extremists are anti-communist and not appealing to europeans so no one will care when they kill them. It worked for a while but eventually blew up in their face.

[martineden]

Dear Comrades,

Somebody mentioned trainings problem, support etc.

First of all, thousands of jihadist join war in middle east from europe and other countries by internet. They met with somebody in Internet and they join. there are so many example like this. So it can be a way which socialists use. Why communist cannot organize via internet?

Secondly, training is not a problem. nobody born as guerilla or fighter. pyd will be volunteer to traine this kind of brigades. It will be similar to international brigades of spanish civil war. this army can move to another countries which need revoulutionary forces. maybe ukraine in next 5 years. Ukraine just an example.

[hashem]

The only fighters the population would accept there are muslims from other muslim countries

this is not true. members of MLCP are not muslims but they are accepted. they are fighting for a democratic revolution in Rojava:

http://www.icor.info/2013/to-the-peoples-of-turkey-kurdistan-and-the-region

[Supposed Mocha]

Not to state the obvious, but the PKK I'm sure would be happy to take volunteers and material support and they're all over the place. They're not as far left as they used to be, but they're still on our side and they seem ignored. They're engaged in Syria and Northern Iraq too.

And yes, a full scale war or resistance is fairly difficult but 'boohooing" the idea isn't really gonna make the revolutions go anywhere. Most Leftist revolts have foreign volunteers and let's not forget about the International Brigades of the Spanish Civil War. Before people bring that up that it was a loss, let's not forget that all the factions were fighting themselves as the Right Wing groups were focused on their hatred of everything not 'them'.

As for details about myself I won't discuss, but if I knew the languages of the area I wouldn't mind at least going somewhere. Especially against ISIS, they're insane even for their types.

[hatzel]

if I knew the languages of the area I wouldn't mind at least going somewhere. Especially against ISIS, they're insane even for their types.

Pfft, already making your excuses, I see; not knowing Arabic didn't stop a load of those ISIS guys, you poser!!!

(Seriously though, don't even begin to talk such crap. And not even the not-online-because-security-culture kind of not talking about something, this is more of a not-even-alone-in-your-room-in-front-of-your-mirror-giving-your-'are-you-talking-to-me'-speech-pretending-your-reflection-is-some-ISIS-guy kind of not talking about something)

[Supposed Mocha]

Pfft, already making your excuses, I see; not knowing Arabic didn't stop a load of those ISIS guys, you poser!!!

(Seriously though, don't even begin to talk such crap. And not even the not-online-because-security-culture kind of not talking about something, this is more of a not-even-alone-in-your-room-in-front-of-your-mirror-giving-your-'are-you-talking-to-me'-speech-pretending-your-reflection-is-some-ISIS-guy kind of not talking about something)

But it'd be silly to be there and have zero understanding of the language ;__;
I wonder how that affects their communications, seems like an amusing scenario waiting to happen.

If your idea was that I was trying to prove myself to a ton of cynical users, you have the wrong person because even if I posted a ton of pictures of me in the middle of the desert there or something they'd still attack me for whatever reason. I was rambling on a bit, so calm down. Also I don't have a big mirror or anything, those cost money I don't want to spend. Just saying.

[khad]

Pfft, already making your excuses, I see; not knowing Arabic didn't stop a load of those ISIS guys, you poser!!!
You're saying it sarcastically, but that's not far from the truth. There are a number of active IS fighters who didn't know Arabic. One that comes to mind was that AbuDujanaMujahir guy, who was in the Homs area before his twitter account got banned.

They learn.

[Slavic]

Dear Comrades,

Somebody mentioned trainings problem, support etc.

First of all, thousands of jihadist join war in middle east from europe and other countries by internet. They met with somebody in Internet and they join. there are so many example like this. So it can be a way which socialists use. Why communist cannot organize via internet?

Jihadist have boots on the ground, money, organizational structures, and internal and external support for their cause. All of these things make it "easy" to meet a handler and fly to Syria to "Fight the Great Satan."

Communists have none of these luxuries and thus are unable to just pack up and join an army. There is no armed left wing in the Middle east, there isn't local or external support, and there is no money.

[bcbm]

ISIS, they're insane even for their types.

seem pretty garden variety to me

[martineden]

Dear Slavic,

There is an left wing organization. This is YPG. They are not based on one ethnicity even they represent Kurds. There is also Assyrian/Christian military forces, SUTORO who is cooperate with YPG. Communists can fight alongside with YPG forces at the first level. And then we can recruit people from rest of world to organize international brigades. If an organization starts to fight in middle east, you can be sure that money and arms will find you asap. please look at the news, ISIS do what they want. there are every groups in middle east except communists.