Education in a socialist federation

[exeexe]

Do you think in federated socialism where there exist no authority that we could educate students much faster? Because today some people will get 25-30 years old before they step into the labor market for the first time and get exploited by the capitalist.

In federated socialist societies there wont be a need to educate people into conformity or to make them respect authorities or tell them who are the bad guys and who are the good guys or tell them about nationalist symbols and traditions. We wont have to tell them about the dominant religious tendency of the nation. Or how the system works and who are the leaders. There would be no need to tell students about how the political spectrum of political parties are constituted. All you would need to know are the consequences of your actions.

Like in highschool you have to take dansk (danish) at A-level in order to pass it, no matter what kind of highschool you take. Beleive me i could read and write when i entered high school rofl.
I chose a technical highscool - still had to take danish at A level and it was so irrelevant compared to all other classes of that school like mathematics and physics. It was so daft and waste of time.

[Tim Cornelis]

I don't think the capability of writing and reading above a certain level is daft or a waste of time. And it comes off a bit as teenage angst this, to be honest.

Almost 10% of the Danish population is functionally illiterate, and most of them have gone to high school. Imagine if this was stripped from the curriculum. So no, attention to language is not unnecessary at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_illiteracy

And honestly, "there wont be a need to educate people into conformity or to make them respect authorities or tell them who are the bad guys and who are the good guys or tell them about nationalist symbols and traditions. We wont have to tell them about the dominant religious tendency of the nation. Or how the system works and who are the leaders. There would be no need to tell students about how the political spectrum of political parties are constituted."

^ This doesn't take up much of the time spent in education at all.

Of course, education will be different in socialism, but not for this reason. And in fact, I think more detail will be given to how society and the system works, to familiarise students with it through practice in their own schools.

[exeexe]

I don't think the capability of writing and reading above a certain level is daft or a waste of time.

Almost 10% of the Danish population is functionally illiterate, and most of them have gone to high school. Imagine if this was stripped from the curriculum. So no, attention to language is not unnecessary at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_illiteracy

Yes but thats because they have some kind of malfunction in their brain that will not allow them to learn to read and write properly. But then they in most cases excel in some other category instead.

It doesn't take 15 years to learn to read and write.
Well either it takes 15 years to read and write or im some kind of a super human being because i learned it in far less time.

Well the time spend in danish classes after a certain age is no longer spend on learning to read and write but on explaining how the system works, who the leaders are and what are the national symbols etc..
Thats why i said it was so daft.

[Tim Cornelis]

Yes but thats because they have some kind of malfunction in their brain that will not allow them to learn to read and write properly. But then they in most cases excel in some other category instead.

You don't know anything about these people and you just make this assumption based on absolutely nothing. Functionally illiterate people are ordinary people who due to circumstances possess very little writing and reading skills. Generally, they grew up in a language-poor family, reading little, limited vocabulary, then they bluffed their way through high school, barely passing for language classes, got a job that requires relatively little reading and gradually the little language skill they had eroded even more.

Or are you saying 47% of the Italian population and 43% of the Mexican population and 20-22% of the Irish, US, and UK population have some mental defect?

("Statistics on functional illiteracy do not include those with learning or reading disabilities or those who are unable to read or write a second language, for example recent immigrants" http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-functional-illiteracy.htm )


It doesn't take 15 years to learn to read and write.
Well either it takes 15 years to read and write or im some kind of a super human being because i learned it in far less time.

"The UK government's Department for Education reported in 2006 that 47% of school children left school at age 16 without having achieved a basic level in functional mathematics, and 42% fail to achieve a basic level of functional English. Every year, 100,000 pupils leave school functionally illiterate in the UK.[7]"


Well the time spend in danish classes after a certain age is no longer spend on learning to read and write but on explaining how the system works, who the leaders are and what are the national symbols etc..
Thats why i said it was so daft.

That would seem like a really ineffective way of spending education time but I seriously doubt that's true. Danish education can't be that much different from Dutch education and we barely spent time on 'the system'.

[pax et aequalitas]

I am currently studying to become a history teacher and that's probably the most biased subject there is and even so it is only occasionally that I get pissed of at the stuff we, as future teachers, have to learn (most just cold war stuff because all teachers grew up during the cold war and they admit that might be true when I said that to them). And over here History in high school actually officially includes learning the Dutch state-structure as well. And honestly, that's pretty useful. I mean without knowing how the system works and how we are governed, how could you ever come up with a solid reason to oppose it? And in 6 years of high school you'll only learn about it for one or two months at most.

Besides that, a lot of education isn't just about the facts you learn. In the case of history, you are also trained in analyzing sources and determining their reliability for example. Or through group exercises you learn how to cooperate with people. You are taught skills as well as knowledge and those skills are also needed in a socialist federation. Besides that, everyone should always try and learn as much as they can. Knowledge is generally pretty good whether it is on things you like or dislike.

[exeexe]

Generally, they grew up in a language-poor family,

What do you mean? that we have people in our society that cant even talk?


reading little, limited vocabulary,
Thats no excuse if you pay attention in school you will learn, if your brain allows it


then they bluffed their way through high school, barely passing for language classes
That would be their own decision, so that can be ignored when making a generalized theory



Or are you saying 47% of the Italian population and 43% of the Mexican population and 20-22% of the Irish, US, and UK population have some mental defect?
Most of the people who failed in this test are proberbly immigrants and were asked to read and write in the national language. Try ask them to read and write in their native language. Then you have the other group of people who are so poor that they cant even find time to learn stuff because they have to work. That wont be an issue in socialism either.



"The UK government's Department for Education reported in 2006 that 47% of school children left school at age 16 without having achieved a basic level in functional mathematics, and 42% fail to achieve a basic level of functional English. Every year, 100,000 pupils leave school functionally illiterate in the UK.[7]"
Maybe they would learn music much better than anyone else instead.



That would seem like a really ineffective way of spending education time but I seriously doubt that's true. Danish education can't be that much different from Dutch education and we barely spent time on 'the system'.Yeah it is. I remember most of it was all waste of time, and i only did it because then i could pass high school not because i could use it for anything after high school. And of course i was right on that. Never used anything.

Imagine in the morning you meet the capitalist of the factory and you greet him by singing the national anthem to him. Because learning the national anthems is so useful. And yeah i was asked if i could sing the national anthem at the job interview. That was obligatory to get the job.

[exeexe]

And over here History in high school actually officially includes learning the Dutch state-structure as well. And honestly, that's pretty useful. I mean without knowing how the system works and how we are governed, how could you ever come up with a solid reason to oppose it?

Yes i know. But that is because you are being governed. Im talked about after a revolution when you are not being governed anymore. How effective education can be when all the bullshit is gone.

[Tim Cornelis]

Your condescending arrogant elitist attitude makes me want to punch you in the mouth. :glare:
Not even when for my study, filled with ignorant right-wing victim blaming carreerist idiots, we had to do a project about functional illiteracy have I heard so much ignorant bullshit and victim blaming for and about functional illiteracy. No one was stupid enough to say "it's their own fault."


What do you mean? that we have people in our society that cant even talk?

Language-poverty, not language inability you condescending idiot.


Thats no excuse if you pay attention in school you will learn, if your brain allows it
That would be their own decision, so that can be ignored when making a generalized theory

Right... Because, as revolutionary leftists, we know that people are unconditionally the masters of their own fate, and are not conditioned, socialised, products of their environments, constrained by structural forces beyond the individual's conscious control. This victim blaming, of people victim of circumstance, is really conservative shite.


Most of the people who failed in this test are proberbly immigrants and were asked to read and write in the national language. Try ask them to read and write in their native language.

"Statistics on functional illiteracy do not include those with learning or reading disabilities or those who are unable to read or write a second language, for example recent immigrants" http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-func...illiteracy.htm )


Then you have the other group of people who are so poor that they cant even find time to learn stuff because they have to work. That wont be an issue in socialism either.

Bullshit. They have the time, but generally they are ashamed of their functional illiteracy.

"Functional illiteracy presents unique problems; sufferers use many techniques to hide their illiteracy and often feel shame or embarrassment that prevents them from seeking available solutions. Experts link it with aliteracy, the reluctance to read even among literate people."

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-functional-illiteracy.htm

But I suppose it's their "own fault" for feeling shame huh? You also do victim blaming when it comes to financial troubles suffered due to financial illiteracy?


Maybe they would learn music much better than anyone else instead.

Idiot. Never mind that their socio-economic position will suffer, never mind the shame and guilt they feel, never mind that they are effectively trapped by their inability to read above a rudimentary level, never mind all this -- let's abolish/diminish language class because you were bored and didn't need them.

[exeexe]

Nah, you are just carrying on with your equality dogmatism. That everyone should be the same and that there is no room for individuality. And that the remains of individuality should be driven out of people so we all can conform to be under the same system.

Its sad to see that you wanna carry this dogma through at the expense of a real sober debate on such an important issue as education and in the meantime you took the opportunity to call me an idiot.

[Zoroaster]

Read John Dewey's paper, "Democracy and Education".

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

How do people fuck up so bad that I end up agreeing with Cornelis of all people? Not only is your victim-blaming repulsive, exeexe, you haven't really said anything. You've just rattled off a list of slogans. Federalism liberty freedom yadda yadda yadda. Everything will be so much better in this Proudhonist fairytale of federated "socialism" because federated "socialism" is the best society there ever is and nothing could be better than federated "socialism".

[Q]

Moved from /theory top /learning.

[radiocaroline]

In my experience in the UK. There is not enough time spent talking about "the system" which leads to a real lack of political interest and knowledge.

Making people less active in both political activity and elections as well as making them more susceptible to populist parties on the far right.

This is obviously under capitalism and this is a flaw in the UK's curriculum which helps to uphold the system due to lack of consciousness.

The importance of education can not be undervalued in a socialist society. I would hate to see a fully dismantling of curriculums which need only be changed to suit the changes in both society and economy.

I think a better approach would be to incorporate these basic skills such as reading, writing and basic numeracy into further education and to assist those who have difficulties with these skills. Whilst providing segmented education facilities for different areas of the workforce