Are we pretty much fucked?

[Sinister Intents]

Are we pretty much permanently fucked by the capitalists? Is any effort of the left futile anymore?

[Comrade Jacob]

I think we will drive ourselves to extinction before a socialist society comes around.
It is pretty much futile, but we are not going to stop resisting because the day we do is the day we have lost for certain.

Oh well.

[Rss]

I don't think we're done for. Mankind might face untold cataclysms and terror in hands of capitalism, but mankind has never been about going quietly into the night. Fuck that. We're going to live.

[Remus Bleys]

Capitalism has supposedly been decadent for around 100 years now. At best, I think it's only an ecological disaster that could bring people beyond the point of no return. The "self destruction of the capitalist system" or "the collapse of capitalism due to its contradictory nature" IS the proletariat.
Now, if you mean your position as a petty-bourgeois, ya, you are pretty much fucked as either proletarian dictatorship will expropriate it, or capitalism will just "organically" swallow it up (due to the concentration of capital), reducing you to a mere "without reserve" (which they themselves are a reserve).

[Thirsty Crow]

Now, if you mean your position as a petty-bourgeois, ya, you are pretty much fucked as either proletarian dictatorship will expropriate it, or capitalism will just "organically" swallow it up (due to the concentration of capital), reducing you to a mere "without reserve" (which they themselves are a reserve).
I can't help but wonder, what differentiates old Engels from Remus so that the latter deserves this kind of jabs? Is it the perceived intellectual superiority? Do you think that intellectual superiority is a valid grounds for holding a member of the idle bourgeoisie (deriving livelihood from claims on capital) in very high regard all the while dissing abuse against a small business owner? Or is it that Engels is dead and god forbid to speak ill of the dead?

Or might it be some rather stupid personal impulse, by any chance?

[Remus Bleys]

If I was ever in the situation to expropriate engels in a proletarian revolution, I would go for it. If he was a small business owner, I'm sure he would acknowledge what I said add fact (as it comes from him). I have said numerous times that what is "statistically" defined as a member of the pb can be communists (even great ones!) but it does not change the fact that the "small business status" is under constant assault by capitalism, and will be expropriated by proletarian dictatorship.
Also relevant, the pb are capitalists and capitalists don't really do anything in and of themselves (they're not comic villains going "what can I do to be evil"), but rather, they are a "living personification of capital" , marx called it.

[exeexe]

No why?
uA1MRvXqB00

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Don't burn yourself out by thinking that there's nothing we can do. Be aware of the limitations of what you can achieve, even if that's just convincing one or two people that our ideas are worth their while and arming yourself with the tools and knowledge needed. The working class will spontaneously act whether there exists a communist left or not. However, when there is action, communists need to be ready to influence the movement as part of the class and every little bit you can do before that action is in preparation for the moment, to lay the framework for future success.

[Ele'ill]

I think this offers relevant observations to echo your question in the OP:

http://endnotes.org.uk/en/endnotes-spontaneity-mediation-rupture

[Sinister Intents]

I think we will drive ourselves to extinction before a socialist society comes around.
It is pretty much futile, but we are not going to stop resisting because the day we do is the day we have lost for certain.

Oh well.

I agree with this, I won't give up on my politics, but I definitely feel the futility, but I'll resist like any creature being crushed by a foot.


Capitalism has supposedly been decadent for around 100 years now. At best, I think it's only an ecological disaster that could bring people beyond the point of no return. The "self destruction of the capitalist system" or "the collapse of capitalism due to its contradictory nature" IS the proletariat.

Definitely, but the bourgeoisie has such a stranglehold on everything, they have maintained and maintain their class consciousness with a lead fist thickly electroplated gold. I feel humanity will die off from destroying the planet. I don't feel like it'll collapse under it's own weight without it taking humanity with it.


Now, if you mean your position as a petty-bourgeois, ya, you are pretty much fucked as either proletarian dictatorship will expropriate it, or capitalism will just "organically" swallow it up (due to the concentration of capital), reducing you to a mere "without reserve" (which they themselves are a reserve).

Where did this come from? I wasn't even hinting at anything like this. I was talking about the oppressed masses destroying the capitalist system. Btw I would gladly give up the business, but the tools I have any one can have and anyone can and could get the equipment I have. The capital I have is insignificant compared to the businesses I'm in direct competition with. I haven't the capital they have. I have merely enough to scrape by in a brutal market where I'm usually out-bid, but my work with my employees out does what the competition can do. Plus my capital is insignificant compared to a concrete batch plant or factories that produce the tools and materials that I require. I would gladly just do the work to do the work and not profit off of it. I can do anything with concrete and the amount of experience I have with this work I can do anything that would be useful and beneficial to people for free. I would prefer to do the work for free and to do the work out of mutual aid because I enjoy the work. Plus why does it even matter I'm petit-bourgeois, and I did see and read your post below. Who the fuck was that one dude who was harassing me over being petit-bourgeois and for other reasons? Also if a revolution seeks to create a state that's not a revolution I want to be a part of :P I'm not letting some state determine what I can and can't do, and of course I won't be trying to profit off of anyone. I'll be doing work to make a nice project in my free time

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I can't help but wonder, what differentiates old Engels from Remus so that the latter deserves this kind of jabs? Is it the perceived intellectual superiority? Do you think that intellectual superiority is a valid grounds for holding a member of the idle bourgeoisie (deriving livelihood from claims on capital) in very high regard all the while dissing abuse against a small business owner? Or is it that Engels is dead and god forbid to speak ill of the dead?

Or might it be some rather stupid personal impulse, by any chance?

I don't think it was a jab at all. The petite bourgeoisie is fucked, given how the capitalist mode of production functions, and from the standpoint of the development of the productive forces that's a good thing (of course from the personal standpoint of the ruined member of the petite bourgeoisie it is anything but good). The same can be said for the technical intelligentsia, a stratum many of us belong to. I think that needs to be mentioned because what some people consider "socialism" is merely the (impossible!) generalisation of the conditions of the petite bourgeoisie to the entire society; this is the "socialism" of the coop-fetishists and federalists. And it's not as if many members wouldn't claim that the interests of the petite bourgeoisie are in line with socialism.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

I think this offers relevant observations to echo your question in the OP:

http://endnotes.org.uk/en/endnotes-spontaneity-mediation-rupture

If I could hug you for this, I would. That particular Endnotes article was unbelievably helpful to me. Thanks Mari3L!

[Skyhilist]

I think we're at least somewhat fucked. It's going to take some catastrophic changes to our climate and environment that result in millions of deaths before people realize that this "green capitalism" stuff is bullshit, and actually get class conscious.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I think we're at least somewhat fucked. It's going to take some catastrophic changes to our climate and environment that result in millions of deaths before people realize that this "green capitalism" stuff is bullshit, and actually get class conscious.

Capitalism already results in millions of deaths, and talking exclusively about climate change is what led people to support "green" capitalism in the first place.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Are we pretty much permanently fucked by the capitalists? Is any effort of the left futile anymore?is it a choice to struggle? Not really in my view. You can choose not to struggle, but it's not like the rulers will then level things off and things will remain at the same shitty level.

The only choice is how to struggle. The cynicism of most people just becomes a kind of accommodation. Can't fight, so I just struggle to make my life less shitty if possible. Try and get rich or drop out and live in an alternative lifestyle - two sides of the same coin.

The efforts of a small and marginalized left are going to be modest, uneven, lots of failures, and mostly preparatory. But capitalism can't exploit and oppress on a stable level, it will always need to go further at some point which tends to also provoke much wider anger than just leftists or whatnot. The point of being a revolutionary in hard times, is to try and help connect some dots, to build in preparation for waves of class struggle.

[bcbm]

Are we pretty much permanently fucked by the capitalists?

yes.


Is any effort of the left futile anymore?

probably.

[willwinall]

Why do you ask if it is over? It has not even begun!

[RedWorker]

I expect to see communism in my lifetime.

[bcbm]

I expect to see communism in my lifetime.

when we go to heaven, maybe

[ralfy]

Likely not as the global capitalist economy faces multiple predicaments.

[Brutus]

I expect to see communism in my lifetime.

Lel, wait until the cynicism hits.

[TheFox]

Are we pretty much permanently fucked by the capitalists? Is any effort of the left futile anymore?
It seems that way. We can only hope that we humans evolve a few more brain cells over the generations and set things right.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Are we pretty much permanently fucked by the capitalists? Is any effort of the left futile anymore?

No and no. This shitshow ain't over 'til it's over.

If one seriously believes otherwise, then why get involved in politics except for personal gain? Nihilism is not conducive to progressive proletarian politics - if everything is fucked and the future is inescapably shit, why bother trying to make the world a better place in the long term?

I don't know if it's a deliberate policy of the ruling class or merely a happy accident for them, but it looks to me like the atomisation and alienation of workers under late capitalism has engendered a large amount of misanthropy and "every man for himself" type of attitudes of late.

Maybe I'm crazy, but it doesn't strike me as worthwhile to go along with that. As long as there are proletarians who want a better world then every effort towards that goal, big or small, is ultimately worthwhile.

Those ruling class bastards want us to say in our very hearts "there is no alternative!". I don't think we should give those fuckers the satisfaction, do you?

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

I have zero expectation that capitalism will be toppled and life made better for all in my or my children's lifetime...just feels like there is no mass desire for it, certainly not in this country, and that there are too many powerful vested interests and too much precious fucking money to be lost.
Still, ya never know.

[SonofRage]

It really feels like we're all screwed sometimes. I get the sentiment. Lately, I feel like none of us really know what the hell we're doing. After 15 years of organizing, I feel less sure now that I ever have. Although, sometimes I think the idea that we know we are doing is probably bad and it's better to have an open mind. If/when the revolution comes, it will probably happen in a way none of us see coming.

[Rafiq]

If we are doomed, this is owed to the ecological crises and not the death of Communism.

For those Communists whose politics was forged in the fires of previous struggles with no bearing today, yes you are fucked. You have been fucked already. 20th century Communism (as a movement, NOT Marxism) is dead. However so long as capitalist relations exist the red star can shine again.

[bcbm]

No and no. This shitshow ain't over 'til it's over.

well we probably won't have very long to wait.


If one seriously believes otherwise, then why get involved in politics except for personal gain? Nihilism is not conducive to progressive proletarian politics - if everything is fucked and the future is inescapably shit, why bother trying to make the world a better place in the long term?

i don't think nihilism has any interest in 'making the world a better place in the future,' but just destroying the horror that exists now.


Maybe I'm crazy, but it doesn't strike me as worthwhile to go along with that. As long as there are proletarians who want a better world then every effort towards that goal, big or small, is ultimately worthwhile.

whatever gets you through the day


Those ruling class bastards want us to say in our very hearts "there is no alternative!". I don't think we should give those fuckers the satisfaction, do you?

the problem isn't a lack of alternative the problem is a lack of time.

[RedWorker]

I don't understand what's unrealistic with me seeing communist society in my lifetime. This shit can't last longer, it's why the ruling class panics more every day. WAKE UP, COMRADES!

I'm giving it 50-100 years for communism to be implemented.

[bcbm]

I don't understand what's unrealistic with me seeing communist society in my lifetime. This shit can't last longer, it's why the ruling class panics more every day. WAKE UP, COMRADES!

this is nowhere near 'panic,' and 'this shit' may not last but communism isn't the only possible outcome of capitalism collapsing


I'm giving it 50-100 years for communism to be implemented.

im giving it 20-50 for climate change to destablize most of human civilization

[RedWorker]

this is nowhere near 'panic,' and 'this shit' may not last but communism isn't the only possible outcome of capitalism collapsing

So what are the other possible outcomes?

[Art Vandelay]

So what are the other possible outcomes?

Barbarism.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

well we probably won't have very long to wait.

Wait for what?


i don't think nihilism has any interest in 'making the world a better place in the future,' but just destroying the horror that exists now.

And replacing it with what?

That question is important because the answer to it is what separates you (hopefully) from fascists and other reactionaries, who also want to "[destroy] the horror that exists now"


whatever gets you through the day

So what are you saying? "Forget about proletarian politics, the world's gonna end soon anyway"?


the problem isn't a lack of alternative the problem is a lack of time.

20 to 50 years is a long-ish time. Of course, I'm far from convinced that the secular End Times- sorry, I meant the effects of climate change - will necessarily outright destroy civilisation, rather than change or disrupt it to an as-yet unknown degree.

[Creative Destruction]

Are we pretty much permanently fucked by the capitalists? Is any effort of the left futile anymore?

i prefer not to think so, but it's possible.

[bcbm]

Wait for what?


this particular shit show to be over.


And replacing it with what?

one step at a time.


That question is important because the answer to it is what separates you (hopefully) from fascists and other reactionaries, who also want to "[destroy] the horror that exists now"

uh fascists and other reactionaries have a very specific plan for what they want to do and they don't want to destroy the horror that exists now but rescue the parts of it they still cling to and elevate them to the former position they imagine once existed.


So what are you saying? "Forget about proletarian politics, the world's gonna end soon anyway"?

you accuse me of waiting for a secular end times but you're the one clinging to millenarian politics. fight for the gains you want, organize if you like. don't expect too much.


20 to 50 years is a long-ish time. Of course, I'm far from convinced that the secular End Times- sorry, I meant the effects of climate change - will necessarily outright destroy civilisation, rather than change or disrupt it to an as-yet unknown degree.

that 20-50 years is before the effects really escalate drastically in a way that has massive import for human societies. we're already probably past the tipping point of avoiding the two degrees everyone is worries about, the real question is how far we'll have pushed past that before finally doing something about it, which will probably have its own set of drastic consequences. i don't know if civilization will be 'destroyed,' and rather doubt it in the larger sense but i don't think human civilization as we know it will be able to carry on and if you think there isn't some pretty massive problems in store i don't think you've been paying much attention.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Sorry for not getting back sooner:


this particular shit show to be over.

So what do you expect to happen? Because I honestly don't know beyond some vague generalities (sea levels will rise, fossil fuels will become increasingly uneconomical, etc) that aren't enough for me to say whether capitalism will be able to weather the associated crises or not.

If capitalism doesn't survive an environmental collapse, then my understanding of historical materialism tells me that subsequent conditions will likely not be conducive to a classless society, and indeed would likely be even worse.

If capitalism does survive, then it will still need to be abolished for a classless society to be formed.


one step at a time.

If people - that is, a politically significant fraction of the proletariat - are to take an active role in the abolition of contemporary capitalism, then there has to be some kind of consensus as to what kind of political and economic structures and processes will replace it. Nothing so prescriptive as a down-to-the-details blueprint is needed, just a majority agreement as to what general shape the future society is going to be.


uh fascists and other reactionaries have a very specific plan for what they want to do and they don't want to destroy the horror that exists now but rescue the parts of it they still cling to and elevate them to the former position they imagine once existed.

Fascists and other reactionaries have plans, plural. They disagree amongst themselves as to what exactly is abominable about contemporary society because they're far from a united camp, like the left.

The point is that such emotive, subjective language ("the horror that exists now") is worse than useless because it is just as easily be (ab)used by reactionaries. You say that they want to "rescue parts they still cling to etc"? Well, reactionaries of various stripes say the same thing about the left! Funnily enough, I've also noticed a tendency amongst them to assume that their political enemies are a monolithic bunch all in on the "evil plan" to dominate the world, a tendency which rather worryingly mirrors your language (what with them having "a very specific plan").

All of which I think underlines the importance of viewing politics through the lens of class rather than morality.


you accuse me of waiting for a secular end times but you're the one clinging to millenarian politics.

Nonsense. Although I would very much like the human species to have a brilliant future where we go from strength to strength, what I hope for is not the same as what I believe will actually happen, a prospect to which I am ultimately agnostic. The future, so far as science can tell us, doesn't exist in any physical sense; therefore it seems to me to be unwise to assume its immutability in any negative or positive manner. For example, an asteroid impact could very well wipe us out next year, rendering the issues of climate change and post-capitalism (among many other issues) null and void. Statistical analysis can give us a balance of probabilities on any possible future event, but outliers do happen and material reality trumps statistics every time.

And thus, something like an answer, so far as I can tell, is not to submit to the Scylla of doom-mongering, nor to fall for the Charybdis of assuming that everything will work out in the end, but to make changes at the one time we actually can - the present.

Nihilism undermines attempts to make meaningful changes by rendering them pointless (in the mind of the nihilist at least), so nihilism should be discarded.


fight for the gains you want, organize if you like. don't expect too much.

If this is an accurate precis of your views on proletarian politics, then no wonder you seem to think we're all doomed. The alienated atomisation is inherent within the language used - it's not just about what I want and like, it's also about the class that I'm part of. Without a proletariat willing to fight for its own interests, what I want and like won't matter so far as emancipation is concerned. So how do we change that?

If the proletariat expects little, then it will get little because such limited expectations will also serve to circumscribe the range of action. People generally don't like wasting their energy on hopeless causes unless desperation drives them, and if that's the case then that same desperation could also drive people to do things which make sense at the time but which in the long term fuck themselves over even more.


that 20-50 years is before the effects really escalate drastically in a way that has massive import for human societies. we're already probably past the tipping point of avoiding the two degrees everyone is worries about, the real question is how far we'll have pushed past that before finally doing something about it, which will probably have its own set of drastic consequences. i don't know if civilization will be 'destroyed,' and rather doubt it in the larger sense but i don't think human civilization as we know it will be able to carry on and if you think there isn't some pretty massive problems in store i don't think you've been paying much attention.

I'm not saying there aren't any considerable challenges facing us, but that's a far cry in my view from justifying the kind of rhetoric I occasionally see bandied about, which seems to me to be an invitation to simply abandon any class politics as irrelevant to weathering "the coming storm".

In which case I can't help but wonder why anyone who seriously believes the current order of things is to be swept away in an imminent environmental catastrophe would bother with a leftist website, instead of spending their time more productively doing something that's actually fun while it lasts, feathering their own nest while they can and/or brushing up on any survivalist skills that might come in useful.

[Loony Le Fist]

Are we pretty much permanently fucked by the capitalists? Is any effort of the left futile anymore?

We are permanently fucked if we give up. That I know for sure.

[Loony Le Fist]

You inspired me to write something SI. Thank you. :grin: You made me pissed in a good way.

Land of the Free (Loonyleftist)

Land of the free
Home of the brave?
More like a bunch
Of corporate slaves!
Keep working hard!
That American dream!
While the economy
Breaks apart at it’s seams!

Fuck off boss!
That’s what you say!
When you strike
Sit on your ass
When the cops come
Fight them off!
Kick their ass!
Beat them down!
Fuck them all!

Want to be a bully!
Pay the fucking price!
No remorse!
Don’t think twice!
The police state
Is already here
It’s easy to tell
Look in the mirror!

Land of the free
Home of the brave?
More like a bunch
Of corporate slaves!
Keep working hard!
That American dream!
While the economy
Breaks apart at it’s seams!

Don’t give up!
Keep fighting
Sexist pigs! Fuck you!
Capitalists! Fuck you!
Hierarchies! Fuck you!

A boot
Stamping
A human face
Forever
Is our future
If we do
Nothing!
Fuck you!

[bcbm]

Sorry for not getting back sooner:

no worries:)


So what do you expect to happen?

massive refugee crises globally, worse weather and increased devestation for some areas, serious food troubles leading to larger destabilization, water wars. these will definitely be the major faultlines that i think things will break apart on. on a smaller scale i'm not sure exactly, would need to do more reading but i am seeing a spread of more enclaves of the upper class defended with military force as in nigeria or south africa today. i cant imagine life for most of the worlds poor getting better. much worse in most cases.


If capitalism doesn't survive an environmental collapse, then my understanding of historical materialism tells me that subsequent conditions will likely not be conducive to a classless society, and indeed would likely be even worse.

If capitalism does survive, then it will still need to be abolished for a classless society to be formed.


i think capitalism of a form can probably weather the storm. if it will be breeding ground for a classless society i don't know.


If people - that is, a politically significant fraction of the proletariat - are to take an active role in the abolition of contemporary capitalism, then there has to be some kind of consensus as to what kind of political and economic structures and processes will replace it. Nothing so prescriptive as a down-to-the-details blueprint is needed, just a majority agreement as to what general shape the future society is going to be.

i dont think its that important.


Fascists and other reactionaries have plans, plural. They disagree amongst themselves as to what exactly is abominable about contemporary society because they're far from a united camp, like the left.

i'm aware, which i would be hard pressed to believe you don't know already.


The point is that such emotive, subjective language ("the horror that exists now") is worse than useless because it is just as easily be (ab)used by reactionaries.

well thank god i am talking to an extremely limited audience on the radical left who knows what i am saying when i wax poetic.


You say that they want to "rescue parts they still cling to etc"? Well, reactionaries of various stripes say the same thing about the left! Funnily enough, I've also noticed a tendency amongst them to assume that their political enemies are a monolithic bunch all in on the "evil plan" to dominate the world, a tendency which rather worryingly mirrors your language (what with them having "a very specific plan").

by 'have a very specific plan,' i mean 'each of the various groups on the right from conservatives to libertarians to fascists have their own specific plans for how to role back (post)modernity, which is a fairly substantial difference from nihilist politics which reject all existing institutions and beliefs and seek to tear them down before building something different.' for fucks sake.


Nonsense. Although I would very much like the human species to have a brilliant future where we go from strength to strength, what I hope for is not the same as what I believe will actually happen

i think you know what i was getting at.


Nihilism undermines attempts to make meaningful changes by rendering them pointless (in the mind of the nihilist at least), so nihilism should be discarded.

what way are you using nihilism here? i don't see any reason to be optimistic about the future, but i don't think 'meaningful change' is off the table.


If this is an accurate precis of your views on proletarian politics, then no wonder you seem to think we're all doomed. The alienated atomisation is inherent within the language used - it's not just about what I want and like, it's also about the class that I'm part of. Without a proletariat willing to fight for its own interests, what I want and like won't matter so far as emancipation is concerned. . . If the proletariat expects little, then it will get little because such limited expectations will also serve to circumscribe the range of action. People generally don't like wasting their energy on hopeless causes

i'm not addressing 'proletarians' as a generality, but specifically addressing you as someone who fancies themselves a militant. we all deserve castles and yachts and to sleep on gold thread sheets, but i think keeping my head closer to earth is a good idea.


So how do we change that?

i'm not sure that we can


If the proletariat expects little, then it will get little because such limited expectations will also serve to circumscribe the range of action. People generally don't like wasting their energy on hopeless causes unless desperation drives them, and if that's the case then that same desperation could also drive people to do things which make sense at the time but which in the long term fuck themselves over even more.

desperation has always been part of proletarian politics, still is in much of the world, and will be much more so in the days to come i imagine.


In which case I can't help but wonder why anyone who seriously believes the current order of things is to be swept away in an imminent environmental catastrophe would bother with a leftist website, instead of spending their time more productively doing something that's actually fun while it lasts, feathering their own nest while they can and/or brushing up on any survivalist skills that might come in useful.

what, you don't have any weird hobbies?


We are permanently fucked if we give up. That I know for sure.

only if you convince yourself that you matter.

[Zoroaster]

Are we pretty much permanently fucked by the capitalists? Is any effort of the left futile anymore?

Nah. People are waking up. It's only a matter of time. It's like the old 60's protest song, "We Shall Overcome". Look it up, listen to the Pete Seeger cover. It's pretty neat.

[bcbm]

It's only a matter of time. thats the problem

also some dissonance... people are waking up, enjoy this song from fifty years ago about people waking up then

[Zoroaster]

thats the problem

also some dissonance... people are waking up, enjoy this song from fifty years ago about people waking up then

Fair point. Damn, now I look like an idiot. Oh well, live and learn.

[bcbm]

nah i was being rude, don't sweat it